View Full Version : Thruhike Mentor?
Miss Janet
02-07-2005, 00:56
I know an experienced AT thruhiker that is offering his service to one hiker per year. He will help the right client plan a thruhike, buy the right gear, train and prepare. Then on the trail he will actually mentor the client all along the trail as a partner but hiking at the clients pace. He would advise and encourage based on his experience as a 2 time successful thruhiker. While this will NOT be a supported hike... no van or anything, the mentor would be willing to carry a lot of the clients load as well as his own. The mentor would like to offer this to the man or woman that wants to thruhike but may want or need the extra support from a constant; on the trail, coach. This may not be attractive to most people but then again, he only wants one client per year. Do you think he would find someone that would want this type of service?
I have know this man for several years and he is a straightup nice man. He is very much the Southern Gentleman and extremely trustworthy. He is well known and would have plenty of references from other hikers.
What are your thoughts on his one on one plan?
Lone Wolf
02-07-2005, 07:00
Hmmm. Would it be the "clients" hike though? What is the "right" gear? Most of the folks on these websites are good mentors but usually one on on partnerships on the trail do not work out. A person needs to learn and discover on their own. Would the mentor be willing to let the client go on alone when he/she gains confidence? I've got tons of experience but it's my experience and my way of hiking wouldn't work for the majority folks. BUT, someone might want/need this sort of hike. Who knows?
What are your thoughts on his one on one plan?
Well, by the time they reach Damascus, provided they do, that little fledgling will probably be ready to fly on his/her own. Unless the two strike up an extraordinary friendship, or the newbie has some physical limitation that requires someone to carry their possesions, I don't see the relationship being all that beneficial after 450 miles (plus or minus).
Just my opinion.
SGT Rock
02-07-2005, 08:23
I could see this somewhat, sort of like a personal trainer to get you started on the AT. Personally I wouldn't want tobe either of these people.
I'd look to a hiking Mentor for suggestions...but, not to hike my hike for me!
theres something to be said...for...letting the hiker gain knowledge on their own....its lessons learned...(maybe the hard way)..BUT, never forgotten!
hikerjohnd
02-07-2005, 09:29
I know an experienced AT thruhiker that is offering his service to one hiker per year. He will help the right client plan a thruhike, buy the right gear, train and prepare. Then on the trail he will actually mentor the client all along the trail as a partner but hiking at the clients pace. He would advise and encourage based on his experience as a 2 time successful thruhiker. While this will NOT be a supported hike... no van or anything, the mentor would be willing to carry a lot of the clients load as well as his own. The mentor would like to offer this to the man or woman that wants to thruhike but may want or need the extra support from a constant; on the trail, coach. This may not be attractive to most people but then again, he only wants one client per year. Do you think he would find someone that would want this type of service?
I have know this man for several years and he is a straightup nice man. He is very much the Southern Gentleman and extremely trustworthy. He is well known and would have plenty of references from other hikers.
What are your thoughts on his one on one plan?
Call it what he wants, but isn't this just a guide service? Isn't that kind of commercial enterprise not allowed on the AT?:-?
Lone Wolf
02-07-2005, 09:31
Doesn't sound like the "mentor" is charging any kind of fee, just doing something out of the goodness of his heart. Nothing commercial about it.
Doesn't sound like the "mentor" is charging any kind of fee, just doing something out of the goodness of his heart. Nothing commercial about it.
Maybe this nice fellow could accompany the individual from Springer to Damascus. Then Lone Wolf could take over and "unlearn" that person. You know, teach them about blue blazin' & hell raisin' and whatnot. :D
hikerjohnd
02-07-2005, 09:37
Doesn't sound like the "mentor" is charging any kind of fee, just doing something out of the goodness of his heart. Nothing commercial about it.
Miss Janet - Is the mentor looking to charge a fee? :confused:
The Solemates
02-07-2005, 09:40
What a crock.
Lone Wolf
02-07-2005, 09:40
After reading the post again it does kinda sound like he may charge a fee. hmmm. Miss Janet?
The Cheat
02-07-2005, 10:29
...snip...
What are your thoughts on his one on one plan?
It sounds to me like he wants to get paid to walk slow. LOL.
Anyway, I can't imagine why anybody would want a coach for the whole trail. But, I suppose a person might want to have somebody help them get started. Although they could get the same thing for free from WhiteBlaze and other sources.
If it is even legal, his best bet might be to help people get started, then walk just the first week or so with them. After that, they should go on by themselves. Otherwise the coaching isn't working, is it?
So, instead of one long coaching job, perhaps he would be arranging multiple short coaching jobs.
The Cheat
The Old Fhart
02-07-2005, 11:38
Keep in mind that this is considered a commercial use and SUP (Special Use Permits) would be required to keep it legal. I have had a outfitters permit for leading AMC NH chapter hikes in the Whites. Some others have actually done guided A.T. hikes without permits and have had run-ins with the law. NotYet has explained her carefully planned proposed guided hike on another thread on WB and her comments on staying legal are well worth reading.
Footslogger
02-07-2005, 11:50
I know an experienced AT thruhiker that is offering his service to one hiker per year. He will help the right client plan a thruhike, buy the right gear, train and prepare. =========================================
Dunno ...that would take a lot of trust. I like the idea of getting input from multiple sources and then doing my own thing. But that's just me ...maybe some hikers would go for this idea ???
'Slogger
AT 2003
Call it what he wants, but isn't this just a guide service? Isn't that kind of commercial enterprise not allowed on the AT?:-?I guess I need some enlightening here, because I'm not sure what you are talking about. Who or what is not allowing commercial enterprise on the AT?
I guess I need some enlightening here, because I'm not sure what you are talking about. Who or what is not allowing commercial enterprise on the AT?
Any commercial enterprise in a National Park (which the AT is) or a National Forest requires a permit. Try and run a shuttle service to Springer without a permit, and see what happens.
Freighttrain
02-07-2005, 13:10
if one person tries to thru, who whould have otherwise never have tried.... then i think its a good idea...
i dont think of a mentor as someone you buy like a coach, trainer, or sherpa.... IMO a mentor's teachings are free to the selected student
Rain Man
02-07-2005, 13:45
Have the guide or the client contact the National Park Service at http://www.nps.gov/appa/ to ask if the proposed services are legal and/or require any permits, etc.?
We're all guessing about this and that, facts and law. Why guess when they can KNOW?
Rain Man
.
This kind of mentoring might be what a single female might look for. Lot's of women don't hike alone, this might be an answer for them.
This kind of mentoring might be what a single female might look for. Lot's of women don't hike alone, this might be an answer for them.
Yah but why pay for it when they can go out on the trail and get followed by 20 guys for free?
Call it what he wants, but isn't this just a guide service? Isn't that kind of commercial enterprise not allowed on the AT?
I guess I need some enlightening here, because I'm not sure what you are talking about. Who or what is not allowing commercial enterprise on the AT?
Any commercial enterprise in a National Park (which the AT is) or a National Forest requires a permit. Try and run a shuttle service to Springer without a permit, and see what happens.Yeah, okay, same thing basically for National forests, state forests, states, towns, cities and villages, and everything inbetween the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Try operating a cab service in any city without a permit and see what happens. Or a restaurant. Or pretty much any commercial enterprise.
But what does that have to do with commercial enterprises not being allowed on the AT? The very fact that a permit is required tells me that such stuff IS allowed.
SGT Rock
02-07-2005, 19:46
Yah but why pay for it when they can go out on the trail and get followed by 20 guys for free?
LOL. Here they come...
:banana :banana :banana :banana
Jack Tarlin
02-07-2005, 19:48
Janet:
First off, you're a good judge of people. I'm sure you're correct in describing this guy as straight-up and well-intentioned.
That being said, I think instead of offering to hike the whole way with someone, your friend's time and energy would be better spent helping and counseling MORE that one person, both before and during hiker season.
There are lots of people I know that do this, for free, every year, answering questions and sharing knowledge with anyone who's interested. Dozens of these folks can be found here at Whiteblaze.
Even with the best of intentions, "mentoring" someone else's trip would inevitably lead to guiding it to the point of dominating it, i.e., in "suggesting" pace, scheduling, campsites, town stops, etc., it's inevitable that the mentor would end up playing an extraordinarily large role in his "client's trip," and every facet of it.
There are other folks who have led "guided" or orchestrated thru-hikes over the years, for various motives, not all of them financial. I've had reservations about these trips as well.
While sometimes well-intended, I think it's best to help people plan and prepare BEFORE their trips, rather than "lead" them while actually on the Trail. A guided trip inevitably becomes someone else's journey, and I think it's very important that folks have the opportunity to discover what they're capable of achieving on their own, and experiencing the hike thru their own eyes and dreams, and not thru a repeat of somebody else's.
That being said, people have to decide for themselves what sort of journey they want for themselves. Is there a poor, timid soul out there who wants this sort of experience for a thru-hike? Probably. Should they have the opportunity to have this sort of hike? Sure, if that's what they want. But I think your friend's time and energy would be better spent sharing what he's learned in other ways, rather than holding someone's hand for six months while the new guy essentially retraces the veteran's steps.
Lastly, I'm troubled with the comment that the mentor would be "willing to carry a good lot of the clients' load" while on the trip, and I think this is a horrible idea, unless the client is handicapped or limited to the point that he's incapable of hauling his own stuff. Thru-hikers all have different baggage, some of it physical, and much of it mental. They need to be encouraged to carry their own baggage, deal with it their own way, and be flexible enough to alter it if necessary. But ultimately, they're better off confronting all these things ON THEIR OWN, without a minder, however well-meaning.
In the end, people need to discover on their own what their dreams are all about. Mentors are fine in college or on the job, but a thru-hike is a journey of self-discovery, and I think it's better off for people to enter this world on their own, without a guide.
SGT Rock
02-07-2005, 19:50
But what does that have to do with commercial enterprises not being allowed on the AT? The very fact that a permit is required tells me that such stuff IS allowed.
That logic is so clear it is frightening.
Miss Janet
02-07-2005, 21:08
Thank you all for your comments and thoughts. I will make sure that he sees this because he knows and admires many of you and will welcome the input. I am sure he intends to take a fee in return for his services. But he may need more information on permits and such.
Comments... Commercial enterprize on the Appalachian Trail is a very common thing. If you doubt this, do a google search looking for "guided hikes on the Appalachian Trail". What you find may surprise you or even anger you but it is true. Is it legal? Is it right? Is it allowed? While all of these questions are important the most important thing to understand is that the USFS and other ruling agencies are not funded well enough to go after all of these groups. When they become aware of a group operating without a permit... say they find them actually on the trail... then they make a report, write a ticket and tell them not to do it anymore. But they do not have the resources to even persue the organizations and businesses that blatantly advertise on the internet... some of the groups offering guided hike services for pay have been in operation without a permit for many, many years... some of them are well known individuals and even large outfitters. The ATC even advertises some of these un permitted services on the ATC website!
Commercial use of the AT is now permitted on most of the trail. I, for one, feel that it is imperative that there is standard by which these permitts are issued and that there is some way to insure that all commercial ventures are held to this standard. Then all groups operating a business on the AT should be policed for permits. The USFS permit officer that is handling my Outfitter Guide permit application does not think that this will ever happen. He alone handles nearly 20 different kinds of special use permits for a very large area. It take up to six months to process the most simple application.
An International Trekking company may advertise thier service and charge thousands of $$ for a guided hike on some part of the AT and they may never be officially approached and told to get a permit. Even if they are ever officially cited they will probably find that it is easier to "beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission".
SGT Rock
02-07-2005, 21:11
True, in 2001 I met a woman that was serving as a guide for 4 guys from Florida. I had met her a few years before at Pearisburg and thought I recognized her. She worked for some outfit in NC that provided the service in that area (Wesser, NC).
My understanding is that one must have a permit to guide on the AT.
In the National Forests in the Southern Regions, this "guide permit" was not available until very recently for the AT...we just found out about the rules changing in January. Our understanding is that no one has yet secured one of these permits (however, this may have only been true for the Pisgah region...and maybe that has already changed). We too have noticed, though, that many have been operating and/or advertising illegally without one for years.
My husband and I have turned away many people who wanted a guided hike on the AT, because we believe it's important to follow the regulations of the areas where we take our clients. Though we do have permits to guide on other trails in the National Forests, we are currently going through the process of applying for a permit to guide on the AT. The rules that have been put in place for guides on the AT are very involved; so it's going to be a very long process. It seems like the Forest Service is trying hard to keep the standards for these guides very high.
Miss Janet, I wish your friend the best, and hope that he is able to work his way through all the red tape!
Brushy Sage
02-08-2005, 12:14
A friend who was an experienced AT hiker drove me to Georgia and spent the first week on the trail with me. Then he hitchhiked back to his car and went home. It was a great service, and free. I learned a lot in a week. When he left to go home there was some sadness. However, I was then able to develop my own hiking style without having to worry about what my trail partner wanted. When I had to leave the trail at Pearisburg, he came to pick me up. Now that's support in the best manner.
The Cheat
02-08-2005, 12:35
A friend who was an experienced AT hiker drove me to Georgia and spent the first week on the trail with me. Then he hitchhiked back to his car and went home. It was a great service, and free. I learned a lot in a week. When he left to go home there was some sadness. However, I was then able to develop my own hiking style without having to worry about what my trail partner wanted. When I had to leave the trail at Pearisburg, he came to pick me up. Now that's support in the best manner.
A true mentor.
Lone Wolf
02-05-2008, 06:52
so did this dude ever "mentor" anyone?
Pokey2006
02-05-2008, 07:17
Ah, the joys of bringing up old threads.
That whole guiding someone for the first week idea sounds good. Anyone looking to hire a guide for the first week on the trail this spring????
I met a pair of guys hiking the JMT last summer. They had been friends from childhood, but one had done a lot of hiking (AT, PCT) and the other had not done any. Newbie told Hiker that he was going to pay $2500 for a three-week backpacking class. Hiker told Newbie that they could take the $2500 and buy new gear for both of them, and Hiker would teach Newbie while they hiked the JMT.
When I met them, a week into the hike, Newbie was already getting restless and starting to question Hiker's dictums. "Why do we have to get up at dawn?" "Why do we have to hike X miles today?"
I can definitely see a market for this service, but it would not be me. I think there are a number of AT dreamers who are completely wrapped up in work, so would have the money but not the time to prepare themselves for a long hike. This would seem to be a shortcut. I agree with Lilred that single women are a likely market.
As far as commercial enterprises on the AT...REI offers frequent trips along the AT in the Smokies that are fairly $$$.
My husband and I did a few trips to Russia where we led tours in exchange for our expenses. It's a lot of work and not much fun to cater to some of the people who can afford to indulge in expensive tours. In any group, there are always one or two high-maintenance people who can make your life miserable. I'd advise the person considering the mentoring thing to be very careful in screening prospective clients. Putting up with a high-maintenance, dependent person for the length of the AT...I don't think there's any amount of money that would make that worthwhile.
fiddlehead
02-05-2008, 08:26
Yeah, old threads can be very entertaining.
Wow, all this talk about legalities. Unbelievable.
Why not just let it happen. People all over the world do this kind of thing for a living. Machhu Pichu, Nepal, Ben Nevis, Kaoh Sok here in Thailand, numerous places.
Right away this thread had to turn to what's legal. Not what's moral or the fact that it might really make someone's hike who otherwise couldn't do it.
And the story above reminds me of the time my buddy came with me on a trip starting at Rialto Beach heading north in Olympic NP. I would study the tide chart and map in the mornings to plan our day and then on the way back, he said: "ok, now i want to be in charge on the way back" He didn't pay attention to those kind of details and we found ourselves at a high tide ford (not recommended) when he went to take a dump in the woods, i forded it carefully and watching the swells that come with the high tide. He just headed right in and was in up to his neck in no time. It turned out to be very funny and nobody got hurt but..................SOME PEOPLE need that little bit of help that this guy (OP's man) could possible give to someone that is not going to hike otherwise.
Just let it happen! Too many lawyers make for a *****ty society!
Why doesn't this guy write his own post and questions?
Gray Blazer
02-05-2008, 08:48
Personnally, I'm looking for someone to finance my thru-hike.
mweinstone
02-05-2008, 09:15
this would suck. nobodys guideing anybody . it will leed to large guided tours like on everest. its a chalange to hike and must remain that challange to remain what it is,...a challenge. wow! did i just villamently disagree with janet?!? and what does vilamently mean if in fact it is a word. and where do i sign up to be a paid guide. kidding. i have led expeditions to ganet peak wyomings tallest with four under my charge and im a certified outdoor leader and i have one billionth lonewolfs exsperience witch is a fuch of alot and im all kinds of cool, but im hikin alone or with friends but never paid as a guide. ill guide a person like you describe in the opening post for nothin. janet this idea of your friends is cool and enticeing . but wrong. im bettin you may change your mind on this guided tour thing. helper companion seeing eyehiker, whatever. leave my trail for scouts, hikers, retired folks and birdwatchers and all who dare. but with no dare, im affraid they may not enter my wild timid. for the trouble that would come of it. respectfully . matty.
jersey joe
02-05-2008, 09:47
I say why not.
I've seen plenty of people out there who can use some help.
I think some people would be more interested in a mentor from a companionship point of view.
Gray Blazer
02-05-2008, 10:42
i have led expeditions to ganet peak wyomings tallest
Wind River Range Is one of my favorites. Did you drive up or walk??
Miss Janet
02-05-2008, 11:54
so did this dude ever "mentor" anyone?
But over the past few years I have seen at least a half dozen groups that were "led" by a paid guide or expert. Very often they appear as any group and it isn't until you are asking questions that it comes out. They seem to be very afraid of others knowing what they are doing. Maybe because they heard that some hikers may have something negative to say about it.
jersey joe
02-05-2008, 12:01
or they are not paying taxes.
more likely they don't have the proper permits for commercial operations in the national parks/forests
This leads me to an honest question:
Is the group I am going with considered "commercial"? I did pay $300 to go, but that was to help cover costs such as gas for the drive, the free gear I have received ($125 dollars Leki poles), and other things. It also goes to help pay for the campsite we are staying at in ASP, and some of it goes to NAMI of greater Milwaukee.
There are 4 of us in the group for this hike. I met a group of 5 thru hikers who had been together since Harpers Ferry.
All thoughts welcome, this is an interesting conversation.
Kirby
Appalachian Tater
02-05-2008, 16:30
Is the group I am going with considered "commercial"?
If it is a registered not-for-profit (or similar), it is not "commercial". But that may not absolve them of the need for certain permits.
mweinstone
02-05-2008, 16:42
led hikes take away from real hikes. they make everything unprofessional. who wants to make the trail a beginners trail? not me. its for the begginner who is alone. not one with a helper. belive me you dont want inexsperienced hiking goin on. and thats what it is. sustained inexsperience that gets a little help to remain on trail and in our way. the trail is for those cabable or who belive they are. not for those who are mostly unsure. cause thats whos gonna be guided. the totaly wrong for the trail people. and at our exspense their gonna find out they hate hiking and quit. if they loved hiking they would be hikers. if they wanna love hiking, hang with hikers. hanging out is all they need. not help hiking. never teach a life and death skill that way. trial and error in the midst of good hiker friends is all it takes. or strangers.
:suni am new to all of this,so for me a mentor is a great idea,i don't know why someone would be so against it ,especially if the chances are you won't run into this person on the trail .:confused:i say go for it.i promise not to use what ever slang/trail jargon you all use out there on the trail so that you will know i am a greenhorn so to speak.thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents worth in.:rolleyes: i would love to have someone give me a heads up i think you can learn to be safer with a little knowledge, and not be out there mucking around and breaking something by trying to look cool . ;)how stupid would that be.
If it is a registered not-for-profit (or similar), it is not "commercial". But that may not absolve them of the need for certain permits.
I don't think JTI does. For GSMNP and SNP we will register as individual thru hikers.
I can't think of anywhere that a permit for a group of four would be needed, especially since during the day I am allowed to hike at my own pace, as long as I end up where we decide we want to go for the day.
Kirby
Appalachian Tater
02-05-2008, 18:43
I don't think JTI does. For GSMNP and SNP we will register as individual thru hikers.
I can't think of anywhere that a permit for a group of four would be needed, especially since during the day I am allowed to hike at my own pace, as long as I end up where we decide we want to go for the day.
Kirby
t wouldn't interfere with your hike anyway, forget about it. You should just concentrate on staying safe and healthy and having fun.
berninbush
02-05-2008, 22:03
If someone wanted to try the "mentor" idea, perhaps they could avoid any legal trouble by clearly establishing (in writing) that the fee is strictly for planning and logistical help given off-trail (before the hike or whatever). The mentor and client can still hike together as partners, but as long as the contract states that the mentor is not obligated (by receipt of the fee) to hike with the client, he or she can't be accused of being a commercial guide without a permit. This also allows flexibility if and when the client decides they want to be on their own.
If the mentor is mainly just looking for a way to get a "free hike," this might work. :)
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, know nothing about USFS permit regulations, and am not a reliable source of legal advice. ;) :rolleyes:
fiddlehead
02-05-2008, 22:29
Love the disclaimer (above)
MWEinstein: careful what you wish for. you may just win the lottery and hire one of these guys to carry your stuff.
I could see where a short term mentor could be a good thing for those not familiar with hiking. The mentors purpose being primarily and only to offer advise to his/her 'client' as needed.
Granted, learning from ones' own mistakes, though effective, may not be the best way to learn (i.e. one can also learn to do things that are not typically acceptable or considered safe).
We all know that inveriably, someone is going to show up and start a LD hike without ever having put up their tent, fired their stove, or hung a bear bag. And all the DVD's, reading books, and online research is not going to teach how to deal with the many variables one faces on a trail.
Bearpaw88
02-06-2008, 15:42
I don't think JTI does. For GSMNP and SNP we will register as individual thru hikers.
I can't think of anywhere that a permit for a group of four would be needed, especially since during the day I am allowed to hike at my own pace, as long as I end up where we decide we want to go for the day.
Kirby
JTI is a not for profit and we have checked with the National Parks and none of them need a permit for a group of four.:sun
Bearpaw88
JTI is a not for profit and we have checked with the National Parks and none of them need a permit for a group of four.:sun
Bearpaw88
Thanks for the information.
4 people is not that big.
Kirby