View Full Version : P.O.E.'s warranty is a P.O.S.
Upon reading the favorable thread http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?74437-Quality-in-Service on how Cascade Designs does business I thought it may be the time to illustrate how one of the OTHER outdoor products businesses out there treats their customers........
A few years ago I purchased a POE 'X-Lite Thermo' pad for my gf as a gift.
Recently, after calling and getting an RMA from Ryan @ POE, she returned (on her dime) this 'lifetime warranted' $65 POE insulated, rectangular, 72x20, "x-lite thermo" pad to POE because the insulation was delaminating/clumping badly within the pad, clearly a manufacturing defect. When sold, this was POE's top-of-the-line pad.
She took their word for it that they would send her a 'like replacement' (which is what she was told by Ryan of POE on the phone). well.....POE shipped as a replacement a $22.00 "Pack M" pad. It is mummy pad and very, let's say, inexpensively (rather than cheaply) made; no where near what she had returned. To my knowledge, none of the outdoor suppliers even CARRIED this obscure pad).
Upon calling in to ask what happened to her 'like replacement' and saying that since they do not seem to make an INSULATED rectangular (air mattress type) pad any more, she said that she could live with the Adventurer AC, even though she prefers (and returned) a rectangular mattress. (The Adventurer AC is at least a quasi-rectangular pad - kind of a cross between a mummy & a rectangular)
She was told that she could have a rectangular NON-insulated pad (the Classic AC) in exchange but was told that unless she paid an 'upcharge' she could not have the pad replaced with their current insulated pad, the Adventurer AC (which would merely be equal to the one she sent in). Anyone who has used both knows that there is a substantial difference (both in price and performance) of an insulated pad vs. a NON-insulated pad.
It makes a person wonder.... What good is company with a so-called lifetime warranty that will not honor it?
So... buyer beware when dealing with Pacific Outdoor Equipment.
TravelPro
07-18-2011, 16:43
A few years ago my Vasque boots, very pricey boots sold with an unlimited lifetime warranty, had the soles crumble on them...chemical breakdown of the soles, which Google showed as a known widespread problem for several years of production.
Called to have the 'lifetime warranty' honored. Kid tells me 'Oh, we don't do the lifetime warranty anymore."
They kept disavowing the lifetime warranty, using various random excuses, until I gave up in disgust.
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.
Wow, this thread is getting around. I decided when I read the OP post and then the owner from POE's response, I was glad I stayed with my super duper NeoAir!
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.
Yes, I wrote the President of POE (after sluething his email addy online). After enduring his rhetoric, that included offers to "make it right" I ended up with just that...... an OFFER to 'make it right'; but when it came down to MAKE it right, they did nothing but offer more rhetoric. This went for Ryan in customer service(?) and Greg, the president.
I was hoping that this treatment was an anomaly - but it appears that is is part of their "mission statement".
It's sad that this is how some companies treat their repeat customers - seems the inverse of how Cascade and others do it.
Beware of Pacific Outdoor Equipment.
hikerboy57
07-18-2011, 19:13
I cant understand in this competitive world today why any company would not do everything within their power to keep an exisiting customer.It takes a tremendous amount of money spent on advertising, catalogs, internet maintenance,etc. to attract one single customer compared to the small amount of money spent to keep an existing customer happy. They seem to forget that unsatisfied customers never come back, and that bad news travels faster than good news If they arent willing to go the extra yard, then take your business somewhere else. One quality shared by the best business models on the planet is an unswerving dedication to outstanding customer service. Take your business where they value it.
restless
07-18-2011, 19:24
What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.
hikerboy57
07-18-2011, 19:38
What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.I
I disagree with you here.Its usually a very small percentage of customers who complain about a product, and the money needed to satisfy is miniscule compared to the potential loss of business. I work for a car dealership, and we have dealt with customers with non warrantied repairs where we met them halfway or even paid the whole bill.We may be the exception rather than the rule, but to us its just good business.They were all local customers who had done business with us before, and we get quite a few referrals from them, so its paid off.You are right that some people have unrealistic expectations, and these we've said no to.But if Im dealing with a somewhat reasonable person, I will go out of my way to ensure we can keep him loyal.
PS I have personally bought quite a bit of crap over the years, never complained. just never did business with them again.My Garmont flash boots lasted all of 3 months, maybe 300 miles, threw em away, replaced them with Keens. Now im going Merrill moab ventilators, not that Im unhappy with the Keens whcih are super comfortable, but Im trying to shed some more shoe weight.
Whomever is offering the warranty has carte blanche as to the terms of the warranty (within legal guidelines).
No one should offer more than they can deliver.
This failure is most obviously a manufacturing or design defect - it is not 'worn out' or 'broken'.
Call me an 'idealist', but I think that if anyone for any reason makes a promise, they should keep it.
POE's 'promise'
"All Pacific Outdoor Equipment product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. Should at any time you find one of these rare defects, we will repair or replace the product at our option."
Toolshed
07-18-2011, 20:18
A few years ago my Vasque boots, very pricey boots sold with an unlimited lifetime warranty, had the soles crumble on them...chemical breakdown of the soles, which Google showed as a known widespread problem for several years of production.
Called to have the 'lifetime warranty' honored. Kid tells me 'Oh, we don't do the lifetime warranty anymore."
They kept disavowing the lifetime warranty, using various random excuses, until I gave up in disgust.
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.
You never know - you might be buying Vasque if you buy REI or Beans Store brands.....
restless
07-18-2011, 20:19
Reading your original post, it definitely seems that POE dropped the ball in honoring their warranty. Unfortunately, it the outdoor products industry, products change rather rapidly and what is available today may not be available next year. However, once again, after several years of use, I would not be surprised if the delamination issue with the pad was in fact, just normal wear and tear. I have had this happen on a couple of Therm-A-Rest pads that I have owned. This type of issue occurs as a result of the naturally occurring oils in the body. To expect an item to last forever is an unrealistic expectation. In a sport such as backpacking, our gear does receive a heavy amount of wear and tear. After using an item for several years, it is had to justify that the problem is a defect in materials and workmanship. Defects usually show up pretty quickly.
What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.
Reading your original post, it definitely seems that POE dropped the ball in honoring their warranty. Unfortunately, it the outdoor products industry, products change rather rapidly and what is available today may not be available next year. However, once again, after several years of use, I would not be surprised if the delamination issue with the pad was in fact, just normal wear and tear. I have had this happen on a couple of Therm-A-Rest pads that I have owned. This type of issue occurs as a result of the naturally occurring oils in the body. To expect an item to last forever is an unrealistic expectation. In a sport such as backpacking, our gear does receive a heavy amount of wear and tear. After using an item for several years, it is had to justify that the problem is a defect in materials and workmanship. Defects usually show up pretty quickly.
Here is a clue Restless, LIFETIME means LIFETIME plain and simple. I have bought other products with a LIFETIME waranty and it has been honored, it didn't matter that I bought it 1 or 20 years ago. The OP should start by reporting POE to the BBB, the FTC the States Atty. General followed by what he is doing and including writing letters to trade magazines and to the publications they advertise in for example "Bacpacker". If some outfit offers a lifetime waranty on an item they are obligated to make it right. If they dropped the item from their line they are still obligated to make it right with like kind items, which in this case they seem to be trying to pull a fast one.
Chubbs4U
07-18-2011, 22:05
Kind of on subject. I recently had some crappy customer service from Dell and Sirius. I emailed everyone I could on their board of directors and also contacted the BBB. Both of the situations were resolved to my liking. It did take a while but i did get what I wanted. The thing is with some of these companies is that they give you the run around til you just give up. I will deal with Sirius again but will never buy anything that Dell makes or sells.
Feral Bill
07-18-2011, 23:03
What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.
I do not expect a lifetime warranty on my gear. When one is given by the seller or maker, however, I absolutly expect it to be honored. These warranties are a marketing tool, not charity. I do not abuses such warranties.
Nutbrown
07-19-2011, 16:08
I respect the REI lifetime warranty. I have only used it for things that have man. defects, but have seen people bring in their boots that have been worn down to the nubs. They still honored the lifetime warranty, even though the boots looked like they had been worn a lifetime. Nothin but respect for REI.
I have seen that with LLBean boots. I was embarrassed. I have no issue claiming warranty on a defect, but after a certain point I have gotten my money's worth.
Got great service from L.L. Bean last week, tent seam started to fail, took it in hoping to just get it restiched because I no longer have the origonal stuff sack or pegs. Well long story short they have shipped me whole new tent and because of some special they were having a bonus $20 gift card. Yes they will get more of my money in the long run.
I do not expect a lifetime warranty on my gear. When one is given by the seller or maker, however, I absolutly expect it to be honored. These warranties are a marketing tool, not charity. I do not abuses such warranties.
I absolutely agree. They lured you to their product with the lifetime warranty and when they don't honor it, that is false advertising and the company should be prosecuted.
More than anything, they cut their own throat because, as it was just said, news travels fast in this world of nearly instant communications.
TravelPro
07-19-2011, 22:46
+1 for both REI and LL Bean. I buy from them often because of the great service. I would NEVER abuse their warranty policy. And I love sending other people to buy from them, who will in turn be happy and tell others. Positive loop.
Wise Old Owl
07-19-2011, 23:36
A few years ago my Vasque boots, very pricey boots sold with an unlimited lifetime warranty, had the soles crumble on them...chemical breakdown of the soles, which Google showed as a known widespread problem for several years of production.
Called to have the 'lifetime warranty' honored. Kid tells me 'Oh, we don't do the lifetime warranty anymore."
They kept disavowing the lifetime warranty, using various random excuses, until I gave up in disgust.
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.
Clearly things change and nothing last forever, you are more than welcome to check in when we are both a hundred years old.... I won't be there, just in spirit. It was a stupid warranty to begin with. Dick Sporting Goods has the worst service and warranties, but you can get a Merrell or a Keen or a Vasque - buy it - run it into the ground and return it soaking from the back of your truck a year later IF you have the reciept...
dumbest policy ever....
Wise Old Owl
07-20-2011, 00:01
Found this on another site..
Jack
http://www.groupsrv.com/travel/templates/NB2/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://www.groupsrv.com/travel/post-54927.html#54927)Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:08 pm
I bought a pair of Vasque hiking boots about 15 years ago and am
almost certain that I was told that they came with a lifetime
warranty. Several times over the years I have had issues with the
boots and they have fixed them for no charge. Now they are telling me
that they never had a lifetime warranty. Does anyone know anything
about the warranty. Has the warranty changed since Red Wing bought
Vasque?
The warrenty is not available on their site.
Jonnycat
07-20-2011, 10:47
Vasque is now owned by Red Wing Shoes. Here is Red Wing's warranty statement (from http://www.redwingshoestore.info/dealers/220/service-text.html ):
All Red Wing products are guaranteed against defects in workmanship and materials. Red Wing accepts returns of defective merchandise.
Limited Warranty: Red Wing Shoe Company products are warranted against defects in workmanship and materials. If within 6 months a product defect occurs as the result of normal use, Red Wing will repair the defect or exchange the product. If within 6 to 12 months a product defect occurs as the result ofnormal use, Red Wing will repair the defect or issue a credit for 50% of the purchase price. If after 12 months a product defect occurs as the result of normal use, Red Wing will issue a fair and reasonable credit that can be applied to the purchase of Red Wing footwear. The amount will be determined at the store. Product failures due to excessive or abusive wear conditions do not qualify for exchange or purchase credit. This warranty is available only to the original purchaser and is not transferable. No adjustment will be given without the original receipt of purchase. You must return your footwear to the Red Wing store where the footwear was purchased.
I bought a Jansport bookbag type backpack 17 years ago and recently the zipper broke...I mailed it in, and rather than repair/replace the zipper they opted to send me a brand new pack...and since they didn't make the model I had sent in anymore they gave me the next closest thing, which a casual observer probably wouldn't know the difference, which happened to be a slightly upgraded version of the one I had sent in, having an additional pocket on the outside and a laptop sleeve on the inside of it.
Harry Cruise
07-26-2011, 13:34
"Lifetime warranty" almost always refers to the life of the product, not the lifetime of the buyer. For some reason, lots of people seem to think "lifetime warranty" means "free stuff for life as long as you wear it out before you die."
If you're the type of person who sends in worn out products and demands they be replaced, it's important to note that any threat to "take your business elsewhere" won't really be seen as a threat. It's really more of a favor when that type of "customer" moves on.
Redwing has owned Vasque for MANY years.
The first pair of hiking boots I bought were Vasque. On the very first trip I took, one of the boots apparently fell out of the car at some point on the way to the Smokys. I had to buy a replacement pair. Several years later, I sent a letter to Vasque, explaining the situation, and asking if it were possible to purchase just one boot, the right I believe it was. Their response was to send me a new boot, with an invoice stating a zero balance. As far as I'm concerned, they went way beyond honoring their warranty.
Have had equally good and amazing customer service from other companies. I do feel embarrassed, however, when I hear of people abusing these warranties. It's not right to expect your gear to last forever, and you should be honest when you've gotten an honest lifetime of use out of it.
As the economy gets tighter, these same people will wonder where the customer service went.
Chatter98
07-26-2011, 14:56
I remember several year ago Dana Designs had one of the best pack warranties, that was before they were bought by Marmont. Not sure how that is today. I knew a guy who had a single loop that broke, he sent it in and they retrofitted every zipper and strap on his pack. Have not had any issues with mine so far, hopefully Marmont will honor the warranty if the day ever comes.
Rain Man
07-26-2011, 16:38
CamelBak did the same thing to me. I had several of their bladders. After a couple of failures, I finally decided to use the warranty for the most recent failure only. I contacted CamelBak expecting honorable service. I was given the royal run around, excuses, requirements, hoops to jump through, and was finally told the warranty only applied to certain color bladders. Yet I know the packaging had said lifetime warranty. I finally gave up. Have never again purchased a CamelBak product.
To me, "lifetime" means MY lifetime. Otherwise, the manufacturer is playing word games. It knows the lifetime of its product and should give THAT number of years as a figure. If it gives no number, then it means my lifetime and I understand they can't know that and can't give a number. In either case, these CamelBak bladders were not very old and had not reached their normal lifetime so far as I was concerned.
It's called "gotcha capitalism."
Rain Man
.
Wise Old Owl
07-26-2011, 17:57
CamelBak did the same thing to me. I had several of their bladders. After a couple of failures, I finally decided to use the warranty for the most recent failure only. I contacted CamelBak expecting honorable service. I was given the royal run around, excuses, requirements, hoops to jump through, and was finally told the warranty only applied to certain color bladders. Yet I know the packaging had said lifetime warranty. I finally gave up. Have never again purchased a CamelBak product.
To me, "lifetime" means MY lifetime. Otherwise, the manufacturer is playing word games. It knows the lifetime of its product and should give THAT number of years as a figure. If it gives no number, then it means my lifetime and I understand they can't know that and can't give a number. In either case, these CamelBak bladders were not very old and had not reached their normal lifetime so far as I was concerned.
It's called "gotcha capitalism."
Rain Man
.
I think this came up before - I never mentioned the warrenty and the bladder was a few years old and the rubber seal went missing.. they replaced it.
JenHikes
07-26-2011, 18:12
Lifetime means lifetime of the product, not for your entire lifetime. If you've ever worked in retail you'd understand that. If a customer has a pair of shoes for 20 years and have had the soles replaced 3 or 4 times, they can't bring it back and say there's a scuff and expect to get the value of the shoe they bought 20 years ago.
Leki poles also have a lifetime warranty, LIFETIME of the product. They say after about 2000 miles of good trekking they're bound to fail.
"Lifetime warranty" almost always refers to the life of the product, not the lifetime of the buyer. For some reason, lots of people seem to think "lifetime warranty" means "free stuff for life as long as you wear it out before you die."
If you're the type of person who sends in worn out products and demands they be replaced, it's important to note that any threat to "take your business elsewhere" won't really be seen as a threat. It's really more of a favor when that type of "customer" moves on.
As a "Specialty Outdoor Retail" manager, this is precisely correct. "Lifetime" means the expected and usable lifetime of the product. If you hike 3000 miles in a pair of boots in one year, youve pretty much used the life out of them... Things get old. Things break down. Get over it and buy another pad...
Trailbender
07-26-2011, 18:35
Leki poles also have a lifetime warranty, LIFETIME of the product. They say after about 2000 miles of good trekking they're bound to fail.
Sounds pretty short, that's barely a thru.
Leki poles also have a lifetime warranty, LIFETIME of the product. They say after about 2000 miles of good trekking they're bound to fail.
I'm seeing a period certain warranty on Leki's site > http://www.leki.com/warrantyForm.php
I'm seeing a period certain warranty on Leki's site > http://www.leki.com/warrantyForm.php
I misread their site - the aluminum-shaft poles are listed as lifetime.
Jim Adams
07-27-2011, 03:12
People wonder why liability issues arise, why some good companies go out of business, why some companies have a poor attitude toward complaints.....WHEN YOU WEAR OUT YOUR EQUIPMENT, YOU CHEAP BA$TARDS NEED TO BUY NEW EQUIPMENT! Please try to understand that "worn out" is not a manufacturing defect. Where is your common sense?
geek
Monkeyboy
07-27-2011, 08:44
I had an "Unbreakable" comb break on me once.
I didn't send it back......I just ponied up another 50 cents and bought another one and got on with my life.
flyingturtle
07-27-2011, 09:00
I have personally bought quite a bit of crap over the years, never complained. just never did business with them again.My Garmont flash boots lasted all of 3 months, maybe 300 miles.
I had a pair of Garmonts...they barely lasted until Damascus.
Rain Man
07-27-2011, 09:41
Lifetime means lifetime of the product, not for your entire lifetime.
Sorry, but if they want to guarantee a product for 3 years, they need to say 3 years or whatever. I'm pretty much fed up with corporate trickery, outright lies, and "gotcha" capitalism. I don't mind if a company does not give a lifetime warranty, but if they do give one, they need to honor it. Otherwise, they are scum. They are not just selling the metal and plastic and fabric, they are selling a promise too. They want 100% of the money, but only to provide a fraction of what they sold for that money.
Rain Man
.
Jim Adams
07-27-2011, 18:22
Sorry, but if they want to guarantee a product for 3 years, they need to say 3 years or whatever. I'm pretty much fed up with corporate trickery, outright lies, and "gotcha" capitalism. I don't mind if a company does not give a lifetime warranty, but if they do give one, they need to honor it. Otherwise, they are scum. They are not just selling the metal and plastic and fabric, they are selling a promise too. They want 100% of the money, but only to provide a fraction of what they sold for that money.
Rain Man
.
There is no trickery involved...it is the usable lifetime of the product.
Do you still have to pay taxes every year after you die...you are the product and when you are gone, the responsibility stops.
BTW, if I remember correctly PUR has a lifetime warranty on it's purifiers...as long as you are not thru hiking!
geek
hikerboy57
07-28-2011, 07:52
most lifetime warranties are "limited" as they warranty the product to be free from defect for the life of the product, and not from normal wear and tear.But if warranty terms are specifically stated ,and the company chooses not to honor that warranty, then they're in the wrong. the simplest solution is if you were really dissatisfied with the product, you should probably consider a better substitute anyway.and dont buy asny more of the offending co.s products.
I remember several year ago Dana Designs had one of the best pack warranties, that was before they were bought by Marmont. Not sure how that is today. I knew a guy who had a single loop that broke, he sent it in and they retrofitted every zipper and strap on his pack. Have not had any issues with mine so far, hopefully Marmont will honor the warranty if the day ever comes.
i know. i miss dana designs. i have an arc light i bought in 96. while hiking, one of the shoulder straps gave. i called them and they met me at the noc with another strap and a whole new pack in case they couldn't fix it. i chose to keep my old pack because they could fix it and it was broken in perfectly. that was excellent customer service right there. then he went all china on us and the quality went down.
you know who else has good customer service? big agnes. i sent in a pad to be patched at my cost and they sent me a new one for free.
Trailbender
07-28-2011, 11:45
i know. i miss dana designs. i have an arc light i bought in 96. while hiking, one of the shoulder straps gave. i called them and they met me at the noc with another strap and a whole new pack in case they couldn't fix it. i chose to keep my old pack because they could fix it and it was broken in perfectly. that was excellent customer service right there. then he went all china on us and the quality went down.
I carry several needles and dental floss, to fix things like that. I have made repairs on gear over the years.
Chatter98
07-28-2011, 12:07
i know. i miss dana designs. i have an arc light i bought in 96. while hiking, one of the shoulder straps gave. i called them and they met me at the noc with another strap and a whole new pack in case they couldn't fix it. i chose to keep my old pack because they could fix it and it was broken in perfectly. that was excellent customer service right there. then he went all china on us and the quality went down.
He did not go all China, his company got bought out and he was locked into a do not compete for a few years. I have seen allot of people going with lighter packs, but I always prefer my Terraplane, even for short trips, as its distribution and comfort cant be beat for me. It is one of the only packs that fits that comfortably with 40lbs or 80lbs.
I carry several needles and dental floss, to fix things like that. I have made repairs on gear over the years.
it was beyond that or i wouldn't have called.
sheepdog
07-28-2011, 14:53
CamelBak did the same thing to me. I had several of their bladders. After a couple of failures, I finally decided to use the warranty for the most recent failure only. I contacted CamelBak expecting honorable service. I was given the royal run around, excuses, requirements, hoops to jump through, and was finally told the warranty only applied to certain color bladders. Yet I know the packaging had said lifetime warranty. I finally gave up. Have never again purchased a CamelBak product.
To me, "lifetime" means MY lifetime. Otherwise, the manufacturer is playing word games. It knows the lifetime of its product and should give THAT number of years as a figure. If it gives no number, then it means my lifetime and I understand they can't know that and can't give a number. In either case, these CamelBak bladders were not very old and had not reached their normal lifetime so far as I was concerned.
It's called "gotcha capitalism."
Rain Man
.
if only you knew a good lawyer :)
hikerboy57
07-28-2011, 15:09
if only you knew a good lawyer :)has one been born yet?
flemdawg1
07-28-2011, 15:26
you know who else has good customer service? big agnes. i sent in a pad to be patched at my cost and they sent me a new one for free.
They've done the same for me twice, and last time even upgraded my pad to an insulated Air Core that costs nearly twice as much. Will definately reccomend them.
Skidsteer
07-28-2011, 19:22
if only you knew a good lawyer :)
CamelBak Products, Inc. warrants the products which it manufactures to be free from defects in material and workmanship for a period of two years from the date of purchase. This warranty is limited to the original purchaser (“Purchaser”) of the product and is not transferable. During the two year warranty period, CamelBak will repiar or replace, at its option, only the defective part of the pack, reservoir, Bit Valve™ or outer pack at no additional charge.
CamelBak Omega Reservoirs are fully warranted to the original owner against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. If a product fails due to either material or manufacturing defect, even after extended use, we will replace the reservoir without charge at our discretion. This warranty does not cover damage caused by accident, combat or tactical usage, improper care and cleaning, or negligence.
The lifetime warranty covers the CamelBak reservoir, but does not cover the pack.
CamelBak packs are covered under a separate Limited Two-Year Warranty.
Definition of LIFETIME: Our reservoirs are covered under warranty, to the orignal owner, for the lifetime of the product.
Pretty easy to find Camelbak's warranty online.
Trailbender
07-28-2011, 19:51
it was beyond that or i wouldn't have called.
Yeah, I have basically torn down and rebuilt my gear to the point where if I can't fix it, no one can. I always heavily modify everything I get, and am at the point where I am going to have to start making my own gear to get what I want.
stranger
07-28-2011, 23:49
Here is a clue Restless, LIFETIME means LIFETIME plain and simple. I have bought other products with a LIFETIME waranty and it has been honored, it didn't matter that I bought it 1 or 20 years ago. The OP should start by reporting POE to the BBB, the FTC the States Atty. General followed by what he is doing and including writing letters to trade magazines and to the publications they advertise in for example "Bacpacker". If some outfit offers a lifetime waranty on an item they are obligated to make it right. If they dropped the item from their line they are still obligated to make it right with like kind items, which in this case they seem to be trying to pull a fast one.
Oh how little we really know about such things...
In the outdoor industry, the term 'lifetime warrantly' generally means the 'average natural lifetime of the product'. It DOES NOT mean the lifetime of the purchaser. Do you really think if you purchase a sleeping pad at 16 years old it should still hold it's warranty 40 years later? Amusing : )
Furthermore, it applies only to manufacturing defects, nothing else. So the sole of a shoe that is peeling off after 350 miles of hard use in New England, where the shoe is wet all the time, and has little recovery time, will not be considered a manufacturing defect by most companies. Sure, places like REI might choose to replace the shoe, but it's at their discretion at the end of the day, regardless of policy, that policy can be changed at any time by REI or whoever else we are talking about.
While I agree that delamination is often iron clad proof of a defect, one could easily argue it was the result of ongoing inappropriate use. After all, the company has no way to determine HOW the product was used, and some companies will hide behind that at times. Yes that sucks. The point remains that products are often discontinued in this industry, and change frequently, therefore getting an exact match is often quite unrealistic if something occurs 4 years down the road.
Last but not least, do remember this - there is nothing you can do about it! What are you really going to do other than put up a post on Whiteblaze and cry to your friends? Your personal boycott haha? C'mon bro...The point remains the reason why companies do this is becasue they CAN do this, you gonna take them to court? I would chalk it up as a bad experience and move on.
Cascade Designs is a proven sleeping pad company that stands behind their gear, perhaps start there.
Trailbender
07-29-2011, 00:27
Furthermore, it applies only to manufacturing defects, nothing else. So the sole of a shoe that is peeling off after 350 miles of hard use in New England, where the shoe is wet all the time, and has little recovery time, will not be considered a manufacturing defect by most companies.
If my shoes start coming apart after 350 miles, I'd consider them garbage, especially if they were $100 hiking shoes. You should be able to get 1000 miles out of a pair of shoes, honestly. I have 1800 miles on my current pair, I did reattach the upper to the sole at the front with paracord. The pair they replaced had a little over 1300 miles on them.
stranger
07-29-2011, 01:35
If my shoes start coming apart after 350 miles, I'd consider them garbage, especially if they were $100 hiking shoes. You should be able to get 1000 miles out of a pair of shoes, honestly. I have 1800 miles on my current pair, I did reattach the upper to the sole at the front with paracord. The pair they replaced had a little over 1300 miles on them.
Thanks for your story Trailbender, I'm not overly clear on your point and how it relates to this thread, but thanks for sharing your opinion on the subject of tread on hiking shoes
stranger
07-29-2011, 01:38
If my shoes start coming apart after 350 miles, I'd consider them garbage, especially if they were $100 hiking shoes. You should be able to get 1000 miles out of a pair of shoes, honestly. I have 1800 miles on my current pair, I did reattach the upper to the sole at the front with paracord. The pair they replaced had a little over 1300 miles on them.
Sorry I re-read your post and you didn't speak of tread, perhaps it was on my mind. I am curious however, how does one hike 1800 miles on a single pair of shoes? I have done a few 500+ mile hikes, I cannot imagine a pair of trail runners going anywhere near 1000 miles, let alone 1800.
Can you tell us of the supershoe you apparently have that last 1800 miles?
The point remains that products are often discontinued in this industry, and change frequently, therefore getting an exact match is often quite unrealistic if something occurs 4 years down the road.
That's what I don't get...seems to me if you are offering a "lifetime warranty" (however you define it) then you should have achieved a level of perfection with your product that its not going to change all that much. I recently sent in a backpack for repair at Jansport and they sent me a whole new pack...my pack was 17 years old and the new one they sent me is substantially the same with only minor changes.
Many companies these days, and not just companies that make hiking equipment, seem to offer lifetime warranties with the hope that nobody will ever call them on it. A warranty is a sales and marketing tool, and you don't get the use of that tool for free. People buy because they believe the product will last a long time, and if it doesn't they should be able to utilize the warranty the company used to entice you to buy.
And these companies know darn well that when they say "lifetime warranty" that most people think it means their lifetime and not the life of the product (whatever they think that means), no matter what your fine print says...they are trading on what people think it means. You can't have it both ways, though I understand many people want it both ways...that's why Best Buy and even Walmart now offer to sell you extended warranties on everything electronic you buy...the reason is its free money because they know that 99.999% of people will just throw the crap away and buy a new one and never even remember that there was a warranty. I wouldn't have known about Jansport's warranty if someone hadn't mentioned it to me...I said "well, that pack's done, zipper's broke" and somebody who heard it said "send it in for repair, Jansport has a lifetime warranty."
Seems to me you put yourself in a quandry if you produce a product with a lifetime warranty and then you stop making the product...how do you deal with warranty issues if you can't replace the item anymore? I doubt many companies consider that when they begin to offer such warranties, much less when they discontinue products. Which begs the question, why would you need to discontinue a product that was of such good quality as to warrant a lifetime warranty?
stranger
07-29-2011, 04:54
Exactly, as Chris Farley said in Tommy Boy, all you have is a guaranteed piece of sh#t, so true.
95% of products never need warranty issues, maybe 98%. The point it, do not rely on one, because you have NO POWER in the situation.
Not all companies are like JanSport or REI - or have the resources of those companies. Furthemore, warranties are fairly useless on a long hike as they normally want to inspect the product before making a judgement, kinda hard when you need the same product for your trip.
Dana Gleason used to talk about 'fail safe' designs - he would design a product to last forever, but in the event it failed in the field, there were ways to get through the trip. Even he knew product WILL fail, it's just a question of when, and he built the best I've ever seen in terms of construction.
Trailbender
07-29-2011, 09:39
Sorry I re-read your post and you didn't speak of tread, perhaps it was on my mind. I am curious however, how does one hike 1800 miles on a single pair of shoes? I have done a few 500+ mile hikes, I cannot imagine a pair of trail runners going anywhere near 1000 miles, let alone 1800.
Can you tell us of the supershoe you apparently have that last 1800 miles?
Merrell XCR moab. The tread is fairly worn, but still has plenty left. The sole has separated from the upper, but I fixed this with parachute cord. You punch a hole in the upper, and sole, and carve out a gap in the sole so the paracord doesn't rub directly on the ground, run it through the hole in the sole and upper, pull it really tight, and stitch it together. You have a loop of paracord holding the upper to the sole. The shoelaces are paracord as well. I also tore out the goretex liner after the shoes weren't waterproof anymore, and did some other sewing to readjust the size.
Parachute cord is cheap, tough and easily available. I use it to fix things all the time, and I sew with dental floss, much stronger than regular thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_cord
sheepdog
07-29-2011, 14:16
Pretty easy to find Camelbak's warranty online.
ok he doesn't need a good lawyer
maybe just a legal assistant with research skills :D
mister krabs
07-29-2011, 15:14
So in light of this discussion, I've decided to send in my old osprey (circa '96) for free repairs. This is their "All Mighty Guarantee"
Osprey will repair for any reason, free of charge, any damage or defect in our product - whether it was purchased in 1974 or yesterday
Seems to me to specifically cover damage repairs forever. Anyone think I'm risking Karmageddon by availing myself of this?
All Pacific Outdoor Equipment product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. Should at any time you find one of these rare defects, we will repair or replace the product at our option.
stranger
07-30-2011, 06:01
All Pacific Outdoor Equipment product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. Should at any time you find one of these rare defects, we will repair or replace the product at our option.
Exactly, the lifetime of the PRODUCT, and who determines that lifetime = the manufacturer, and who decides if the product has been used inappropriately = the manufacturer. Again, don't rely on it.
Jim Adams
07-30-2011, 12:19
i know. i miss dana designs. i have an arc light i bought in 96. while hiking, one of the shoulder straps gave. i called them and they met me at the noc with another strap and a whole new pack in case they couldn't fix it. i chose to keep my old pack because they could fix it and it was broken in perfectly. that was excellent customer service right there. then he went all china on us and the quality went down.
Kanga,
Me too! Same place, NOC. I had broken an adjustment buckle on a Bridger in 2002 and they met me there with a new hip belt. GREAT SERVICE! Sad to see them go.
geek
i've actually gotten terrific service from 2 big box companies. The North Face and Marmot both treated me right in 2 replacement issues. A Precip jacket with Marmot and Hedgehog's with TNF.