winter thruhike

[japhyryder]

If you were going to do a winter thruhikewhat are 3 things you would just have to bring?

[Tipi Walter]

If you were going to do a winter thruhikewhat are 3 things you would just have to bring?

Many backpackers who start a winter backpack on the AT usually end up bailing due to the unwillingness to carry the extra weight of items needed for winter travel in the mountains, and this could include:

** Adequate and overkill clothing, including a decent down parka or beefy jacket---along with the weight of sufficient midlayers and fleece to withstand long hours spent in camp.

** A light shovel to move deep snow for tent placement---don't laugh, the ridges in NC and VA often get swamped with two feet of snow.

** Ergo, the possibility of needing snowshoes or crampons---most thruhikers just don't want to carry these items, especially the snowshoes, due to the weight. Postholing thru deep snow is the biggest bail-out reason. And don't follow the current fascination with lightweight shoes or trail runners---you'll need a good all leather boot with a beefy tread, something trail runners do not have.

** They don't call it the Green Tunnel for nothing, and many winter backpackers are confronted with this tunnel blocked by what I call Snowdowns---whereby all the rhodo and evergreens and stuff leans over into the trail covered with a heavy blanket of snow---making travel nearly impossible unless you like to belly-crawl for miles with a pack on your back.

NONE OF THIS is to say winter backpacking in the Southeast mountains should be avoided---au contraire!! But why set yourself up for failure on a "forced march" in the winter when you can pull a good long trip in a certain area and spend seven or eight days of that trip holed up at one place in a blizzard? Last year I pulled an eighteen day trip and spent five days in one spot on a mountaintop in my tent during a storm, and another seven days at another spot in a series of three blizzards---so carry a good four season tent and DO NOT BAIL TO A TOWN and be prepared to hunker in and pull your zero days outside with your tent. How to hunker? That's a topic for another thread.

[4shot]

a book. One downside (imo) to winter/camping and hiking is the limited amount of daylight. when it's too cold and/or I don't want to mess with a fire, I have been in my tent and bag as early as 5PM (and it being dark). That's central time, but I am just on the eastern boundary. you will spend way more downtime in the winter.

[k2basecamp]

1. A pee bottle 2. A primus hand warmer 3. VBL socks

[Hooch]

A sherpa, a kerosene heater and Cindy Crawford.

[R00K]

** Ergo, the possibility of needing snowshoes or crampons---most thruhikers just don't want to carry these items, especially the snowshoes, due to the weight. Postholing thru deep snow is the biggest bail-out reason. And don't follow the current fascination with lightweight shoes or trail runners---you'll need a good all leather boot with a beefy tread, something trail runners do not have.

[R00K]

My buddy and I went to the MD section when it was 10* (I think 0 with wind chill) to prep for our Thru. We wanted to experiance some of the worst conditions possible before our actually hike to better understand what we were in for.
"Postholing" through snow you did not expect to be on the mountain is possibly the absolute worst hiking experiance I've ever had. And my buddy only brought trail runners.

[moldy]

To survive in the snow and cold and also make headway on a very long and difficult path will take very strong determined person. You will need about 60 lbs. of equipment. In deep snow it's hard to make 5 miles a day. This is why a true Winter thru-hike has never been done. I call a true Winter thru-hike one that the hiker hikes 9 out of 10 days from the first day of Winter to the first day of Spring. There have been hikers who on a mild Winter have made some progress North from Georgia by dashing thru a warrm spell to the next town where they stayed in a hotel until the weather again breaks. In the end they spent more time in town than on the trail. It would take a very mild Winter and a early Spring even the Southern Appalachians. Forget about New England. I have read many books and accounts about the trail from various sources and many have tried and none have done it. There is a book and a movie in it for the first person who does it. Good luck and please tell of your adventure on Trail Journals.

[max patch]

If you were going to do a winter thruhikewhat are 3 things you would just have to bring?

If you have to ask you're not ready to do a winter thru.

[Slo-go'en]

There's just one thing you JUST have to bring - lots of money for all the time you'll be hold up in a hotel room.

[Two Tents]

Tipi Walter gave excellent advice! Pee bottle is another useful tidbit. My suggs. are Snowshoes, A stove to run in super cold to melt snow. A good headlamp with batteries and or a candle lamp for warmth and light . It's dark ALOT!

[weary]

If you were going to do a winter thruhikewhat are 3 things you would just have to bring?
Three buddies to help break trail through deep snow. For a couple of decades, I winter backpacked 3 or 4 trips a year in Maine, each trip ranging from two nights on the AT to a week (sometimes more) in BaXTER Park. The hardest part is breaking trail in deep snow. Usually, we just kept switching off the leader every few hundred yards to ease the struggle.

In some ways winter hiking is easier than other seasons -- no bugs, no roots and rocks, just smooth incline planes through mostly soft snow. But then, there is the extra heavy pack, short days, sometimes icy trails, and cold winds.

[John B]

A sherpa, a kerosene heater and Cindy Crawford.

Unnecessary duplication -- no need for kerosene heater if you have Cindy Crawford. Might toss the sherpa, too, depending on how much weight Cindy can haul.

[Snowleopard]

For winter in the north:
Get lots of experience in winter in the mountains. Since you're NY, the Catskills and Adirondacks will do for experience.
Read Weary's post; the more people breaking trail the better.
You must be willing to bail out when conditions get bad. There are situations in winter and early spring in the north that are not survivable; the start of spring melting can be very dangerous and almost impassable.
Following trails can be difficult when the white blazes are under a couple feet of snow. The trails are cut for summer; in winter you might be 6' off the ground in the branches, just as tipiWalter describes.
I wonder how much of the trail you can ski on xc skis? In mild terrain it can be a lot faster than walking. You'd probably still have to take snowshoes, crampons and iceaxe for tougher terrain. It's gotten harder to find xc skis that have good flotation on deep soft snow than when I was young.
There is a cross country ski trail that parallels the Long Trail in VT.
There was a well prepared fellow from Quebec that posted on WB last winter that did part of the AT in the White Mts solo. As I recall, he almost died only once.

For winter in the south: read TipiWalter's many trip reports.

[tscoffey]

I could make the argument that if the sherpa is female, young, and attractive, then you could ditch Cindy and keep just the sherpa!

A few advantages of this are:
1) Cindy is getting a bit long in the tooth now.
2) When Cindy gets cold and tired, she's going to bitch horrendously.
3) While the sherpa is less likely to get cold and tired, if she does , and if she bitches, it'll be in Nepalese so you won't be able to understand it.

[Tipi Walter]

For winter in the north:
Get lots of experience in winter in the mountains. Since you're NY, the Catskills and Adirondacks will do for experience.
Read Weary's post; the more people breaking trail the better.
You must be willing to bail out when conditions get bad. There are situations in winter and early spring in the north that are not survivable; the start of spring melting can be very dangerous and almost impassable.
Following trails can be difficult when the white blazes are under a couple feet of snow. The trails are cut for summer; in winter you might be 6' off the ground in the branches, just as tipiWalter describes.
I wonder how much of the trail you can ski on xc skis? In mild terrain it can be a lot faster than walking. You'd probably still have to take snowshoes, crampons and iceaxe for tougher terrain. It's gotten harder to find xc skis that have good flotation on deep soft snow than when I was young.
There is a cross country ski trail that parallels the Long Trail in VT.
There was a well prepared fellow from Quebec that posted on WB last winter that did part of the AT in the White Mts solo. As I recall, he almost died only once.

For winter in the south: read TipiWalter's many trip reports.

You make a few good points, one being bailing out when conditions get bad, although on most of my long winter trips I am dropped off and so have no car sitting around a trailhead (who wants to leave a car out for three weeks?). This is a great winter system if you can find someone to drop you off, then when conditions really go south you can make it to the nearest road and usually get a decent hitch out with your thumb.


Your quote "Following trails can be difficult when the white blazes are under a couple feet of snow. The trails are cut for summer; in winter you might be 6' off the ground in the branches . . . . .", is true. I forgot to mention the fact that the trail itself is invisible and if there's enough snow you had better know the place very well as you won't be able to find the trail. While this may not be such a problem on the AT with all the white blazes, it's a real problem everywhere else. Eight to ten inches and you've got a slightly sunken trail tread in the snow---easy to follow. fifteen inches to two feet and the trail is gone. Last winter I was postholing three miles in 35-40 inches along a 5,000 ridge which I knew like my own backyard as I've humped it countless times in the past---but dangit if I didn't get "lost" and went flailing in the white stuff---"swimming" is a better word. It took me all day to hike those three miles, and like an idiot I did it in shorts (cuz you build up the worst sweats in the winter postholing up a mountain), and ended up with "snow burn" on my left calf---like a bad bicycle wreck road rash. Who knew?

And I definitely know this truth: The trails are cut for summer! Believe this one. The trail boys with the loppers and saws don't do their trailwork in the winter with a foot of snow on the trees---so they just don't know how bad the lean-overs can get.

[Elder]

Tipi Walter gave excellent advice! Pee bottle is another useful tidbit. It's dark ALOT!

Use a specific/different type,size, and shape bottle to pee....

[Tipi Walter]

Use a specific/different type,size, and shape bottle to pee....

Okay, how far do we want to get into this? In-bound tent toilet habits could be a whole other thread---BUT I don't bother with the separate pee bottle, I just use my cooking pot and clean it before the next meal. I mean, the thing will get boiled. No problemo. Who needs to carry a separate jug just for urine?

And then we come to the whole question of Squat and Release---how to birth a fiesty turtlehead in the middle of a 0F blizzard. There are several ways:

** The usual "go-out-and-scrap-out-a-cathole, and bury the thing. Standard procedure.
** The Next To The Tent Release, whereby a midnight turd is birthed and left next to the tent in the snow. By morning it will be hard as a rock and can be later buried properly---or if the ground is frozen like a rock the thing can be hurled like a discus into the furthest clump of rhododendron, or placed under a big rock, if one is found. I have never done the out-west technique of smearing my stool across the surface of a rock . . . . something to ponder. Nor have I ever humped out my effluvia in a bag like some places require.

** The In-Tent Turd Release---GRAPHIC WARNING!!---Yes, sometimes the weather is so foul and the colon so urgent that a bowel release must be done inside the tent atop a couple paper towels or onto a plastic bag (moved quickly to the tent vestibule to later freeze and bury, etc). An In-Tent Turd Drop is only done when conditions are horrible outside with zero visibility and sandblasting spindrift, and usually the turtlehead wants out sometime around midnight but you can't be stumbling about the area in a whiteout at -10F in 50mph winds. No same person would, so you actually look fondly on your layed out paper (like a dog) and have no problem doing the deed.

I've heard of some hardy arctic backpackers who go out and share a tent and take dumps right next to each other when the weather turns ugly. I have never done this and I never want to do this.

[Slo-go'en]

I've heard of some hardy arctic backpackers who go out and share a tent and take dumps right next to each other when the weather turns ugly. I have never done this and I never want to do this.

When you got to go, you got to go - modisty be damned!

[Tom Murphy]

Three buddies to help break trail through deep snow.

Bingo, we've got bingo.

Breaking trail is exhausting work. Guy Waterman did lots of solo winter trips in the Whites and his MO was to break trail without his gear and then go back and haul his gear up.

A 3-4 day backpacking with some friends and a pulk to carry most of the gear is tons of fun. If the trail has already been broken out by someone else you feel like you won the lottery.

The real problem is managing the moisture in your insulating layers and sleeping bag over the course of several days.

I never winter camp without my SVEA 123R. The most reliable stove ever created.

[k2basecamp]

Bingo, we've got bingo. I never winter camp without my SVEA 123R. The most reliable stove ever created.Nope, the old jet engine MSR G/K melts snow real quick heck you can even use it to break trail.

[Elder]

Okay, how far do we want to get into this? In-bound tent toilet habits could be a whole other thread---BUT I don't bother with the separate pee bottle, I just use my cooking pot and clean it before the next meal. I mean, the thing will get boiled. No problemo. Who needs to carry a separate jug just for urine?

Note to self, never ask Tipi Walter for his secret recipee.

[middle to middle]

A sherpa, a kerosene heater and Cindy Crawford. ///////// I would go with you all if the sherpa would carry a case of beer !
T

[Tipi Walter]

When you got to go, you got to go - modisty be damned!

My autonomic nervous system would seize up thereby shutting down the sphincter leading to long-term impacted distention, etc.


Note to self, never ask Tipi Walter for his secret recipee.

The secret's in the sauce.;)

[Ironbelly]

I have done a 3 month dec-feb hike on the AT with my brother, and a 1.5 month Dec-Jan hike solo on the northern AT. I am a winter backpacking fanatic, and take winter trips whenever possible.

The 3 things I would recommend are: A white gas stove(I like the msr xgk ex), snowshoes, and a quality 4 season shelter setup. Now, those 3 main things being said I highly suggest these other things as well. A book, a pee bottle, 2 liter pot(for melting snow), microspikes, extra batteries for headlamp, some tea light candles(you can make a housing out of a soda can etc easily if you wish), maps, compass, and gps. Warm clothes! test out your clothing before a winter thru hike to make sure your set. Keep a thick baselayer as an emergency set and keep dry. I keep a set in a dry bag with my sleeping bag.

Winter is a whole new animal that requires alot of different gear. I know you didn't ask for an entire gear list so I wont post one. But some little things will make your time much more enjoyable and safer. You will have more darkness than daylight, I find having the little tea lights are nice for reading by etc and save on the headlamp. Quickly addressing the 3 main thing si listed; white gas stove is needed for efficiently melting snow and cooking no matter your style in winter(alcohol and canister stoves work but you have to keep the fuel warm i.e. next to your body for awhile to warm them up). Snowshoes made the treks so much more enjoyable for me, without them you are post holing in sometimes 3+ feet of snow that can become very tiring very quickly. People will say they are not required, but I strongly recommend them. And lastly a solid 4 season shelter setup. Your shelter doesnt have to be a 700$ 4 season tent, but it does need to be sturdy enough to take a snow load. My first 3 month trek was done with a TNF Mountain 25. My second trip was done with a tarp and bivy setup using shelters when possible. Whatever you decide to go with you need to know how to set it up practically blindfolded and with numb hands. If your cold wet and tired, and got caught with your pants down by a freak blizzard your gonna be cursing yourself and probably die if your f***in around with trying to setup your shelter. I recommend practicing setting up your shelter wearing mittens, and then practice at night with no headlamp. If you have to tie knots then rethink your plan, knots are very hard with cold numb hands.

Hope this helps some, and post away with any questions! And most importantly have an awesome winter thru hike!

[Ladytrekker]

What about following the trail in winter I have read that many who have tried could not distinguish what was the trail that many of the blazes are snow covered and the trail is hidden by snow. I would be most nervous about getting loss.

[Ironbelly]

The trail can be quite difficult to follow in winter, this is very true. You need to know how to use a map and compass. The reason I mentioned a GPS is it makes following the trail in winter much easier, especially in whiteout conditions. I can load about 300 miles of trail track and waypoints into my gps along with the corresponding maps. So if your having trouble locating the trail and you cant find it with a map and compass then a gps is invaluable to tell if you are right or left of centerline(track). I carried a thumbdrive with all of the files I needed to update my gps's information along the way, and would just update it when needed in town at a library etc. I only turned on my gps when i needed a fix to find the trail. Using it this way my gps would last 3 weeks or so on 1 set of AA batteries. My gps also has a bui;t in 2 way radio/weather radio which is nice for getting the forecast. The only waypoints i had were the shelters, to maximize the space on the unit. Newer gps's let you add a memory card, with a gig card you could probably load the entire trail.

[Tipi Walter]

I have done a 3 month dec-feb hike on the AT with my brother, and a 1.5 month Dec-Jan hike solo on the northern AT. I am a winter backpacking fanatic, and take winter trips whenever possible.

The 3 things I would recommend are: A white gas stove(I like the msr xgk ex), snowshoes, and a quality 4 season shelter setup. Now, those 3 main things being said I highly suggest these other things as well. A book, a pee bottle, 2 liter pot(for melting snow), microspikes, extra batteries for headlamp, some tea light candles(you can make a housing out of a soda can etc easily if you wish), maps, compass, and gps. Warm clothes! test out your clothing before a winter thru hike to make sure your set. Keep a thick baselayer as an emergency set and keep dry. I keep a set in a dry bag with my sleeping bag.

Winter is a whole new animal that requires alot of different gear. I know you didn't ask for an entire gear list so I wont post one. But some little things will make your time much more enjoyable and safer. You will have more darkness than daylight, I find having the little tea lights are nice for reading by etc and save on the headlamp. Quickly addressing the 3 main thing si listed; white gas stove is needed for efficiently melting snow and cooking no matter your style in winter(alcohol and canister stoves work but you have to keep the fuel warm i.e. next to your body for awhile to warm them up). Snowshoes made the treks so much more enjoyable for me, without them you are post holing in sometimes 3+ feet of snow that can become very tiring very quickly. People will say they are not required, but I strongly recommend them. And lastly a solid 4 season shelter setup. Your shelter doesnt have to be a 700$ 4 season tent, but it does need to be sturdy enough to take a snow load. My first 3 month trek was done with a TNF Mountain 25. My second trip was done with a tarp and bivy setup using shelters when possible. Whatever you decide to go with you need to know how to set it up practically blindfolded and with numb hands. If your cold wet and tired, and got caught with your pants down by a freak blizzard your gonna be cursing yourself and probably die if your f***in around with trying to setup your shelter. I recommend practicing setting up your shelter wearing mittens, and then practice at night with no headlamp. If you have to tie knots then rethink your plan, knots are very hard with cold numb hands.

Hope this helps some, and post away with any questions! And most importantly have an awesome winter thru hike!

I'm definitely with Ironbelly on this one---he has the tone of someone who knows about winter backpacking. All the things ULers tend to rail against are the things I recommend and he also recommends.

** I'm a white gas stove advocate from day one (simmerlite)---it's the best for winter backpacking---along with a decent two liter pot (I like the MSR titanium thingie).

** The four season tent is a no brainer, no seedhouses and hubbas here, please. And seriously reconsider foregoing the tarps and hammocks or god forbid, cowboy camping with just a bivy sac.

** I always start out with at least four books on my 18+ day trips, each book is burned after reading to make my load lighter. In the same category I will add my little Sangean radio.

** Kahtoola microspikes are on my wish list though it's possible to backpack without them if you don't mind slipping and falling now and then.

** I always take extra batteries for my headlamp and radio and start out a trip with new fresh batts in each.

** I've found winter candles to be a necessity for long nights in the tent to keep my fingers thawed when sitting up. See picture. I use three hour Manischewitz shabbat candles which can be found in most grocery stores. One of them rests in the bottom of an empty blistex lip balm container:

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/5896/tj5896_103107_101844_278632.jpg

The above shows my candle setup with the blistex container (and my journal paper and pen).

** I don't need the candles for light as my headlamp works great for weeks with one set of batteries---I need the open candle flame to keep my fingers thawed out as I sit in the tent and write in my journal or just tinker with stuff.

** As Ironbelly says, ample clothing is very important and here I recommend Icebreaker merino zip neck midlayers and an overkill winter parka like the Feathered Friends Icefall down parka with hood. It saved my butt a bunch of times. See below fotogs:

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/11648/tj11648_012511_111944_594853.jpg

This picture shows the all important Icebreaker merino top layers---two sandwiched together. The Icebreakers are heavier than fleece but you grow to like them when you have to live in them for three weeks. I really like the thumb-hole sleeves.

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065_022310_083715_512556.jpg

As Ironbelly says, it's vital to have a decent four season tent because conditions will turn nasty and where are you gonna go to get out of the blizzard wind and blowing spindrift?

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/11648/tj11648_012611_081943_594961.jpg

This picture shows the importance of several items, and a couple things Ironbelly doesn't mention, namely the down pants and down booties---highly recommended for winter camping! A overkill down parka is also vital with a good hood. Notice the tent is guyed out for some serious wind in this gap.

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/8498/tj8498_021609_092249_417879.jpg

Finally, you need an overkill winter bag rated way below what you think you need. This is a -15F rated WM Puma bag. No down bag you have at home, all lofted up nice and dry, will stay lofted up and dry during a long winter trip, and if you expect 0F then you will get cold with a 0F rated bag---as most bags are off by 15 degrees. A good bag with a good high Rvalue pad (at least 5R) are both needed for winter comfort.

** Ironbelly's comment about being able to setup your tent in cold harsh conditions is very true. Last winter I got caught in a sudden sleet storm which dumped six inches of new snow on the trail and the bitterly cold winds picked up. Gloves are vital---always have two pair and keep one dry at all costs. I got to my camp with wet gloves and frozen hands and since my campsite was in an exposed windy spot and my hands were numb blocks of wood, well, it was a real challenge to get the tent set up---I also needed a shovel to remove all the snow for my tent but I had to use my frozen gloved hands for snow removal---ouch. I barely had enough left in me to get the tent up---so be forewarned.

[Ironbelly]

I have yet to splurge on down pants. I do however use down booties, and my oh my are they nice to have! In place of the down pants t I use cap 3 long johns, heavy weight polypro long johns, winter weight bdu pants. For my top I have a cap 3 base layer, polypro top, wool hoody, nano puff, and my newfound favorite a waxed cotton down jacket. I also have ECWCS goretex parka and pants for really cold/foul weather.

My waxed cotton down jacket from llbean is my new favorite article of cold weather clothing. It is a little heavy at about 2lbs 8 oz, but I don't really care about the weight the weight of the jacket and the ecwcs parka together are about the average weight of a typical insulated winter parka. It is comfortable for me with just a cap 3 baselayer down to about 10-15F, add in a few more layers and I have been comfortable around camp down to -25F. It's a waterproof, windproof, tough as nails, down insulated jacket. My main fear with down is getting it wet , so I try and keep my layers to items that if they get wet for whatever reason they will still insulate. I did a shower test with the waxed cotton jacket and not a drop soaked into the material 'the water ran off the jacket like the water off a ducks back'.

**I do plan to buy a pair of down pants when i have some extra money sitting around.

[Wolf - 23000]

Starting from where? Winter hiking starting from Georgia is a lot different than starting from Maine. It is total different planning mind set that is needed.

[Tom Murphy]

I have yet to splurge on down pants.

I bought fleece bib pants with full side zippers from an army surplus store. Inexpensive and very Bulky but I haven't seen the need to replace them. Pack volume isn't a concern since I typically use a pulk.

I have an array of insulating materials: mostly wool for clothing and down for sleep system, but also a few fleece items like the pants, my hiking shell, and my hat.

Didn't plan it that way but, after the fact, I kind of like the variety.

[nufsaid]

BUT I don't bother with the separate pee bottle, I just use my cooking pot and clean it before the next meal. I mean, the thing will get boiled. No problemo. Who needs to carry a separate jug just for urine?

Yes, sometimes the weather is so foul and the colon so urgent that a bowel release must be done inside the tent atop a couple paper towels or onto a plastic bag (moved quickly to the tent vestibule to later freeze and bury, etc). An In-Tent Turd Drop is only done when conditions are horrible outside with zero visibility and sandblasting spindrift, and usually the turtlehead wants out sometime around midnight but you can't be stumbling about the area in a whiteout at -10F in 50mph winds. No same person would, so you actually look fondly on your layed out paper (like a dog) and have no problem doing the deed.

I've heard of some hardy arctic backpackers who go out and share a tent and take dumps right next to each other when the weather turns ugly. I have never done this and I never want to do this.

Would a really hardy backpacker just take a dump in their cooking pot and then boil it in urine in the morning? Your method doesn't seem nearly as earth friendly. You really do have some good tips. Some may take you more seriously if you would back off a bit on your boasting when the topic doesn't require it. Actually, I can't image any topic that requires boasting.

[karo]

Would a really hardy backpacker just take a dump in their cooking pot and then boil it in urine in the morning? Your method doesn't seem nearly as earth friendly. You really do have some good tips. Some may take you more seriously if you would back off a bit on your boasting when the topic doesn't require it. Actually, I can't image any topic that requires boasting.
Most of the time I avoid people that boast alot and would agree with you. But from what I have read about Tipi Walter, he is the real deal. He goes out in winter when most would not even consider leaving the house to go to the local store. I think some of his remarks have to be taken tongue in cheek, yes but his winter backpacking experience esp. in the southern mountains in winter is not to be taken lightly.

[mudhead]

Would a really hardy backpacker just take a dump in their cooking pot and then boil it in urine in the morning? Your method doesn't seem nearly as earth friendly. You really do have some good tips. Some may take you more seriously if you would back off a bit on your boasting when the topic doesn't require it. Actually, I can't image any topic that requires boasting.

What Karo said. I imagine wax paper helps the turtle birthing process.:)

Look up more than in Summer, walking and camping. Snow load on trees.

[nufsaid]

Most of the time I avoid people that boast alot and would agree with you. But from what I have read about Tipi Walter, he is the real deal. He goes out in winter when most would not even consider leaving the house to go to the local store. I think some of his remarks have to be taken tongue in cheek, yes but his winter backpacking experience esp. in the southern mountains in winter is not to be taken lightly.

But does being the real deal automatically require one to remind everyone of their exploits when commenting on a thread when someone just asked for the pros and cons of hammock camping? He doesn't seem to miss a chance to promote himself. As I have said, he does have valid info to share. Not much of it relates to the average person hiking the AT.

[nufsaid]

He is certainly qualified to post on this topic. And his comments on this may not be boasting at all. All I am saying is that some do not take him seriously because of his history of boasting and intolerance of how others chose to hike a camp.

[Tipi Walter]

I have yet to splurge on down pants. I do however use down booties, and my oh my are they nice to have! In place of the down pants t I use cap 3 long johns, heavy weight polypro long johns, winter weight bdu pants. For my top I have a cap 3 base layer, polypro top, wool hoody, nano puff, and my newfound favorite a waxed cotton down jacket. I also have ECWCS goretex parka and pants for really cold/foul weather.

My waxed cotton down jacket from llbean is my new favorite article of cold weather clothing. It is a little heavy at about 2lbs 8 oz, but I don't really care about the weight the weight of the jacket and the ecwcs parka together are about the average weight of a typical insulated winter parka. It is comfortable for me with just a cap 3 baselayer down to about 10-15F, add in a few more layers and I have been comfortable around camp down to -25F. It's a waterproof, windproof, tough as nails, down insulated jacket. My main fear with down is getting it wet , so I try and keep my layers to items that if they get wet for whatever reason they will still insulate. I did a shower test with the waxed cotton jacket and not a drop soaked into the material 'the water ran off the jacket like the water off a ducks back'.

**I do plan to buy a pair of down pants when i have some extra money sitting around.

I'm glad you mentioned the cotton jacket as many people flinch when they hear the word Cotton in relation to winter, but the arctic types favor cotton shells when the temps get in the severe range (though probably not applicable for AT usage). See below fotogs:

http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/images/aa1.jpg

This pic is from Empire Canvas and is one of their cold weather cotton anoraks.

http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/images/anorak2.jpg

Here's another Empire piece. Neat stuff.
http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/arcticanorak.htm

[Panzer1]

13192if you must use a candle inside your tent, then use a candle lantern like this one:
13192

13193

These are a lot safer to use in a small tent. I hang mine from the ceiling of the tent with a small chain (like the pull string chain for a closet light).
The candle burns for 9 hours.

[Tipi Walter]

13192if you must use a candle inside your tent, then use a candle lantern like this one:
13192

13193

These are a lot safer to use in a small tent. I hang mine from the ceiling of the tent with a small chain (like the pull string chain for a closet light).
The candle burns for 9 hours.

Candle lanterns can be a real big pain in the buttocks---just let the candle burn down all the way and coat the spring (which pushes the candle upwards while burning) and the rest of the bottom housing with hot wet wax which DRIES into a hardened mess and you've got a big cleaning job on your hands, at least I did with the crappy lantern I had. Plus, the open flame approach works well if you keep the candle small (three inches) and you're old enough to be left alone with a Bic lighter. In addition, the open flame is real efficient at thawing out frozen fingers when sitting up and hovering over it.

Of course, I never burn a candle unless it's on my lap atop my sleeping bag as I sit up---I just don't lay the candle down somewhere in the tent and let it burn. Gotta keep tabs on it. The secret is to never blow a candle out, just pinch it out with wet fingers, otherwise an errant spark could pinhole your sleeping bag or god forbid pinhole your Thermarest (or Exped).

[WingedMonkey]

13192if you must use a candle inside your tent, then use a candle lantern like this one:
13192

13193

These are a lot safer to use in a small tent. I hang mine from the ceiling of the tent with a small chain (like the pull string chain for a closet light).
The candle burns for 9 hours.

They finally starting making the candle oil inserts again. Mine was stolen years ago. There is no spill of wax, they go out immediately if tipped over. Fill up a air plane size booze bottle for a refill backup.

[Wolf - 23000]

Tipi Walter,

I've done my fair share of winter hiking including three straight winter hikes of the southern Appalachian Trail (PA-GA stretch) and in some places more. As well as the northern half.

Some of your statements are just plain silly. I'll start with 2 feet of snow. The few times/areas there is two feet of snow, for an average male if you include pack-weight/gear wearing, you are talking over 200 pounds your snow shoes would have to support. Unless your snow shoes are very wide, an average pair will make little to no different. Using a wide pair of snow shoes doesn't make a lot of sense because I'm sure you are aware the trails are filled with blow-downs during off season hiking. A wide pair of snow shoes would make it harder to get over the trees. Crampons are not needed until some places in VT, NH and ME. In 2 feet of snow, an average hiker can still power hike through it.

Use your cooking pot to piss in or you giving "birth a fiesty turtlehead" in your tent, well that is just gross and very unhealthy. To clean your pot, you are supposes to boil water for at least 4 minutes. Instead of saving your fuel, you are using 4 extra minutes of fuel just to clean your pot. That is silly.
A rubber poncho also does wonders in the winter wonderland. It does a great job during the day keeping hikers warm without turning into a frozen ice man from snow falling down on top of the hiker. One of my 3 items I would take on a winter hike up north. It also gives a good amount of protection and a healthier choice when giving birth to a fiesty during weather is bad. And of course can act as a shelter.

As for your comments about Ultra-Light hiking, well I'm known as a ultra-light hiker. It is still possible to winter hike safely during the winter months. Hiking south of NJ, I'm still carrying less than 20 pounds without the need to bail out into town when the weather gets bad.

Wolf

[Panzer1]

Candle lanterns can be a real big pain in the buttocks---just let the candle burn down all the way and coat the spring (which pushes the candle upwards while burning) and the rest of the bottom housing with hot wet wax which DRIES into a hardened mess and you've got a big cleaning job on your hands, at least I did with the crappy lantern I had.

I had the same problem. But I think I found the cause. The wax continues to melt after you blow the candle out. Because the hot glass acts like an oven.
To solve that problem:when you remove the insert from the glass housing to blow the candle out, don't put the insert back into the housing until it cools off. You don't got that wax melt problem.

Panzer
but yea, they are a pain anyway.

[Wolf - 23000]

To survive in the snow and cold and also make headway on a very long and difficult path will take very strong determined person. You will need about 60 lbs. of equipment. In deep snow it's hard to make 5 miles a day. This is why a true Winter thru-hike has never been done. I call a true Winter thru-hike one that the hiker hikes 9 out of 10 days from the first day of Winter to the first day of Spring. There have been hikers who on a mild Winter have made some progress North from Georgia by dashing thru a warrm spell to the next town where they stayed in a hotel until the weather again breaks. In the end they spent more time in town than on the trail. It would take a very mild Winter and a early Spring even the Southern Appalachians. Forget about New England. I have read many books and accounts about the trail from various sources and many have tried and none have done it. There is a book and a movie in it for the first person who does it. Good luck and please tell of your adventure on Trail Journals.

moldy,

Winter hiking the state of Maine, I averaged 12 tough miles a day. You don't need 60 pounds even in deep snow. You just have to pack smartly. Hiking south, I've made it from PA - GA during the winter months. Mother Goose has finish her yo-yo hikes in Georgia in March back in the 90s. Would you consider that as a winter thru-hikes?

Wolf

[Panzer1]

I thought he was kidding about crapping in a pot. That was a joke. Wasn't it?

Panzer

[Ironbelly]

I am assuming you havn't used snowshoes frequently if you think you will sink even if your 200 lbs. I am 210ish with about a 30-35lbs base weight pack in winter, and even I don't sink. I use a pair of msr denali ascents with 4 inch tails, so that 29in total i believe. Unless it is fresh powdery snow(which everyone will sink in) you wont sink. It takes a week or so at least for snow to settle and get all the air out so it is packed and more supportive. And if the ground is covered in snow or ice or both and your not not using snowshoes or microspikes etc your an idiot and asking to get hurt, in fact in many places it is illegal to go hiking without such items in winter.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi Walter,

I've done my fair share of winter hiking including three straight winter hikes of the southern Appalachian Trail (PA-GA stretch) and in some places more. As well as the northern half.

Some of your statements are just plain silly. I'll start with 2 feet of snow. The few times/areas there is two feet of snow, for an average male if you include pack-weight/gear wearing, you are talking over 200 pounds your snow shoes would have to support. Unless your snow shoes are very wide, an average pair will make little to no different. Using a wide pair of snow shoes doesn't make a lot of sense because I'm sure you are aware the trails are filled with blow-downs during off season hiking. A wide pair of snow shoes would make it harder to get over the trees. Crampons are not needed until some places in VT, NH and ME. In 2 feet of snow, an average hiker can still power hike through it.

Use your cooking pot to piss in or you giving "birth a fiesty turtlehead" in your tent, well that is just gross and very unhealthy. To clean your pot, you are supposes to boil water for at least 4 minutes. Instead of saving your fuel, you are using 4 extra minutes of fuel just to clean your pot. That is silly.
A rubber poncho also does wonders in the winter wonderland. It does a great job during the day keeping hikers warm without turning into a frozen ice man from snow falling down on top of the hiker. One of my 3 items I would take on a winter hike up north. It also gives a good amount of protection and a healthier choice when giving birth to a fiesty during weather is bad. And of course can act as a shelter.

As for your comments about Ultra-Light hiking, well I'm known as a ultra-light hiker. It is still possible to winter hike safely during the winter months. Hiking south of NJ, I'm still carrying less than 20 pounds without the need to bail out into town when the weather gets bad.

Wolf

I never said I CARRY snowshoes---I don't---but there were times when ridge hiking in 35 inch snow that I seriously considered it. And as far as crampons go, like microspikes, I do not carry these either although there were hundreds of times I wish I had a pair. Like I said, a backpacker can stay out all winter long w/o crampons, especially in the Southeast, but this doesn't mean he won't need them on occasion when negotiating "nutbuster" trails of various proportions. Every winter backpacker has memories of descending a steep mountain trail in ice---I can remember a very recent trip (last winter) when I had to lose five hundred feet on a ridge walk between Haoe Peak and Hangover Mountain on a trail covered in a sheet of ice. How did I do it w/o crampons? By sliding down on my butt like a crab and breaking a sweat. Crampons would've been valuable.

But who wants to carry the extra weight? And who wants to carry the extra weight of snowshoes?---I have enough weight already with my usual 40+ lbs of food, etc.

As far as using the cooking pot for in-tent urination, well, I haven't had a problem with it in decades of use. No stomach cramps, no furry growths emerging from ears, no scalp inflammation or nostril bleedings. Remember, in some places people drink a tiny bit of their own urine for "health reasons", so it isn't toxic. Just see:
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Urine_Therapy.htm







(http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Urine_Therapy.htm)

[Tipi Walter]

Anyway, I don't drink my own urine, but my point is a tiny little bit inadvertently caught in your cooking pot won't kill you or even make you sick, and it actually may be good for you. When you say it's very unhealthy to dump a load inside a tent, well, I don't know what you're talking about. How is it unhealthy? To you it may be gross or unsightly, but read on. I've never dumped into my cooking pot and I never said I did, but I know of a few arctic adventurers who line their pots with plastic bags and do the deed inside their tents. All I can say about it Wolf-23000, is that you've obviously never been caught out on an open bald in a tent at -10F in a white-out blizzard with high winds and had to "give birth" inside your tent. When the urgent call comes at midnight in such conditions, well, we do what's easiest and best.

As far as UL goes, AT hikers are known for their frequent town trips and resupply points, hence their ability to carry light loads with minimal food weights. My point is to those guys out there who get caught in a Southeast blizzard which shuts down the trail for a week and brings 30-40 inches of snow on the high ground. In every Trail Journal I read, about such backpackers, is that they bail into the closest town and hunker there for the duration---they do not set up a decent tent platform and sit out that week in their tents with the weight of two weeks worth of food for a weather-induced zero day basecamp because they just don't want to hump the weight. Why not?

Isn't winter backpacking all about, uh, being out in the winter? And not inside some motel room to ride out a January storm?

[PaperCrane]

maybe im way off topic here as i havent done all that much winter hiking, but i dont see anyone talking about the extra calories our bodies use to try and keep warm. i suppose this can be somewhat countered by keeping very well insulated while out and about, but then your burning calories with the weight of the added gear.

[Trailbender]

Actually, you don't need to boil a pot for 4 minutes. As soon as the water has large bubbles surfacing regularly, or a rolling boil, it is safe to drink. The "boil for x minutes" is a common misconception that won't die. Other than extremophile bacteria, which aren't common, all pathogens harmful to humans die above 185 degrees. The rolling boil is just a visual indicator of the safety. I have boiled water to purify it for years, from a wide variety of sources, and never gotten sick. Obviously, this won't work on heavy metal or pesticide contaminated water.

As for the 4 season tent, I have camped with a tarptent year round, down to about -5dF. It is fully enclosed, though. I'm sure it is colder, but I don't care for owning gear I don't use regularly, so I just deal with it. Haven't had an issue yet. I tie it off to a tree with 550 cord on a snaplink, no knots. I have had it in some pretty high winds, and never had an issue.

[Snowleopard]

Canvas anorak's like the Empire Canvas that TipiWalter shows are great for cold weather. They breath well but are only slightly resistant to rain or wet snow. I also like non-waterproof non-waterresistant, supplex anoraks for winter day hiking in New England. BUT, it sometimes rains even in northern New England in winter, so you need to bring rain gear, preferably goretex or event. The cotton anoraks are probably best at 20F and below (especially way below).

You can sometimes get Swedish military surplus anoraks or parkas that are cotton canvas. I think they're made for snow camouflage. They're cheap when you can find them. This place is sold out but you can see what they're like: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/2-new-swedish-military-anorak-parkas-off-white.aspx?a=713513

[Wolf - 23000]

I am assuming you havn't used snowshoes frequently if you think you will sink even if your 200 lbs. I am 210ish with about a 30-35lbs base weight pack in winter, and even I don't sink. I use a pair of msr denali ascents with 4 inch tails, so that 29in total i believe. Unless it is fresh powdery snow(which everyone will sink in) you wont sink. It takes a week or so at least for snow to settle and get all the air out so it is packed and more supportive. And if the ground is covered in snow or ice or both and your not not using snowshoes or microspikes etc your an idiot and asking to get hurt, in fact in many places it is illegal to go hiking without such items in winter.

I've winter hiked a total about 8,000 miles and about 1,000 miles in Arctic conductions. As for the snow shoe part, I've used them mainly in the North. From my experience, hiking in 2 feet of snow or less wasn't enough snow to make a different if I had snow shoes or not. MSR Snowshoes are my choice in snow shoes as well.

As for the illegal part, I have never seen where any sign that every said you must have snow shoes or microspikes. Sorry, I just have never seen it. I'm not saying don't take them but common sense goes a long way. Even in the worst place in the south, snow shoes are not needed.

Wolf

[Ironbelly]

In the NE, the Catskills and Adirondacks are two places I know 100% it is illegal to go hiking in the winter without traction aid, specifically snowshoes or crampons at a minimum. It's something to the tune of a 500$ fine i believe. Right off the Adk webstite "In the Eastern High Peaks Wilderness, the use of skis or snowshoes is mandatory once there is 8 inches (20 cm) of snow on the ground." I know in NH if you have to be rescued and are deemed to not have had the proper equipment you would get billed.

Besides postholing is tiring, and it trashes the trail. It makes it incredibly dangerous for whomever may follow in your steps a few days later. Because now there are deep frozen holes everywhere that make it really easy to twist or break an ankle/leg.

I could probably find the other regulations for different areas i have read about or been to, but i dont have enough time right now. Bottom line is, you should not be going out in winter without some form of traction aid, it's a safety thing.

[Tom Murphy]

Baseweight:
Winter backpacking means more weight for both the packmule and the gram weenie.

While most UL concepts are applicable to winter backpacking, the UL backpacker's winter hiking base weight is always going to be heavier than his/hers 3-season base weight. You need more insulation and a sturdier shelter.

Also the UL idea of "take only what you need" is difficult to apply to the food and fuel since you don't know many miles you are going to be able to make a day.

Snowshoes:
Needing flotation is a function of the person's weight and the snow conditions.

On 2 foot deep unconsolidated snow, you need snowshoes if you want to make much progress. In late winter, after a few warm/cold cycles, you can almost walk on the top of the same section of snow.

I have both 8" x 25" and 9" x 30" snowshoes. There have been times I wished I had 10" x 36".

[Wolf - 23000]

Actually, you don't need to boil a pot for 4 minutes. As soon as the water has large bubbles surfacing regularly, or a rolling boil, it is safe to drink. The "boil for x minutes" is a common misconception that won't die. Other than extremophile bacteria, which aren't common, all pathogens harmful to humans die above 185 degrees. The rolling boil is just a visual indicator of the safety. I have boiled water to purify it for years, from a wide variety of sources, and never gotten sick. Obviously, this won't work on heavy metal or pesticide contaminated water.

As for the 4 season tent, I have camped with a tarptent year round, down to about -5dF. It is fully enclosed, though. I'm sure it is colder, but I don't care for owning gear I don't use regularly, so I just deal with it. Haven't had an issue yet. I tie it off to a tree with 550 cord on a snaplink, no knots. I have had it in some pretty high winds, and never had an issue.

Trailbender,

I've heard different that the water is safe to drink. Water starts to form boiling at around 70-80 °C (155–175 °F); about 80-90 °C (175–195 °F) – larger bubbles start to form; still a few degrees short compare to boiling boiling for the 4 minutes between about 90-95 °C (195–205 °F). In the end, it is up to the hiker to choice at what risk they are willing to take.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Baseweight:
Winter backpacking means more weight for both the packmule and the gram weenie.

While most UL concepts are applicable to winter backpacking, the UL backpacker's winter hiking base weight is always going to be heavier than his/hers 3-season base weight. You need more insulation and a sturdier shelter.

Also the UL idea of "take only what you need" is difficult to apply to the food and fuel since you don't know many miles you are going to be able to make a day.

Snowshoes:
Needing flotation is a function of the person's weight and the snow conditions.

On 2 foot deep unconsolidated snow, you need snowshoes if you want to make much progress. In late winter, after a few warm/cold cycles, you can almost walk on the top of the same section of snow.

I have both 8" x 25" and 9" x 30" snowshoes. There have been times I wished I had 10" x 36".

Tom,

I'm a fairly light weight backpacker. Unless I'm winter hiking up north (New England) the different between a hiking the southern AT, PA-GA down is only between 3-4 pounds total. It is still not that hard to travel under 20 pounds total weight including food/water with little effort.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

In the NE, the Catskills and Adirondacks are two places I know 100% it is illegal to go hiking in the winter without traction aid, specifically snowshoes or crampons at a minimum. It's something to the tune of a 500$ fine i believe. Right off the Adk webstite "In the Eastern High Peaks Wilderness, the use of skis or snowshoes is mandatory once there is 8 inches (20 cm) of snow on the ground." I know in NH if you have to be rescued and are deemed to not have had the proper equipment you would get billed.

Besides postholing is tiring, and it trashes the trail. It makes it incredibly dangerous for whomever may follow in your steps a few days later. Because now there are deep frozen holes everywhere that make it really easy to twist or break an ankle/leg.

I could probably find the other regulations for different areas i have read about or been to, but i dont have enough time right now. Bottom line is, you should not be going out in winter without some form of traction aid, it's a safety thing.

NH, I do know has billed some hikers if it is found out that the hikers was grossly unprepared or doing something deem "reckless". What it doesn't say is you have to have snowshoes. The High Peaks Wilderness I have not spent much time there but would be suprise that don't remember seeing anything posted. 8 inches is not even worth wearing snow shoes.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Tipi Walter,

I was referring to taking a dump in your tent that you are sleeping in as well as the gas that is release by your body when you urine. Yes I know in a pinch you can drink your own urine. Being in close quarters with body waste is a good way to get yourself sick. It is the same as sleeping in an outhouse.

Wolf

[Ironbelly]

My point is that many places, whether a hike knows it or ot, has regulations regarding safe travel in the backcountry in winter. Remember "ignorance of the law is no excuse." You should call the local ranger station in the area and ask about any specific regulations.

I still personally believe that it is foolhardy and dangerous to travel in the backcountry during winter without some form of traction aid, be it a cheap pair of yaktrax or full on snowshoes and crampons.

[Tipi Walter]

My point is that many places, whether a hike knows it or ot, has regulations regarding safe travel in the backcountry in winter. Remember "ignorance of the law is no excuse." You should call the local ranger station in the area and ask about any specific regulations.

I still personally believe that it is foolhardy and dangerous to travel in the backcountry during winter without some form of traction aid, be it a cheap pair of yaktrax or full on snowshoes and crampons.

I agree, but I've never gotten around to buying a pair of Kahtoola spikes. I should have a pair in my pack on winter trips but instead I switch over to beefier all leather boots with a deeper tread, and these keep me on the trail with a fair amount of slipping and sliding. I probably will never carry a pair of snowshoes because on ridgewalks in two plus feet of snow I usually struggle a couple miles and set up camp somewhere to ride it out, or fall off the mountain 3,000 feet where the snow depths are less. My reason is I just don't want to have to hump the extra weight.

Another option would be to cache these items in the area I will be backpacking, say up on the high ground where conditions will be the worst, and get to the cache after the storms hit. This option won't work on the linear AT as no one will backtrack to pick up a cache.

The only thing I really wish I had and really need is a snow shovel because it's a big job to remove a foot of snow for my tent just with my hands like a gopher, and in two feet of hard-packed snow it's impossible, so a light backpacking shovel is high on my list.

http://backcountryaccess.com/images/products/images/Tour.jpg
This is one of the best and one of the lightest---one pound. Made by BCA:
http://backcountryaccess.com/index.php?id=64&page=Tour/Tour_Systems.

And then there's this option, the Snow Claw:

http://www.preparedpilot.com/images/snowclaw.jpg
The Snow Claw moves snow and breaks thru hard snow and ice and moves it away. See:
http://www.snowclaw.com/

[ScottP]

I've hiked out in the east/southeast in the winter. You don't really need a whole lot more than you need in, say, march or april on the AT. Add a down vest, an extra layer of polypro, fleece pants, good gloves, beefier sleeping pad, and wool socks and you're good to go. Had near record lows in the smokies--static temps in the single digits and 2-4 feet of snow. no problem

I still rock a flat tarp and a 20 degree bag and road running shoes

Kahtoola microspikes are nice when the snow is shallow and the trail is steep.


Further north on the AT in winter (New England) is beyond my experience.

snow shoes are pretty limited in usefulness. If the snow is super-fluffy they're not going to help no matter what. If the snow is frozen over you're walking on it anyways, and if it's less than 2ish feet deep snowshoes are more work than just walking through the snow.

[Trailbender]

I've hiked out in the east/southeast in the winter. You don't really need a whole lot more than you need in, say, march or april on the AT. Add a down vest, an extra layer of polypro, fleece pants, good gloves, beefier sleeping pad, and wool socks and you're good to go. Had near record lows in the smokies--static temps in the single digits and 2-4 feet of snow. no problem

I still rock a flat tarp and a 20 degree bag and road running shoes

Kahtoola microspikes are nice when the snow is shallow and the trail is steep.


Further north on the AT in winter (New England) is beyond my experience.

snow shoes are pretty limited in usefulness. If the snow is super-fluffy they're not going to help no matter what. If the snow is frozen over you're walking on it anyways, and if it's less than 2ish feet deep snowshoes are more work than just walking through the snow.

I figured it would get colder than mid TN. I have had winter days I hiked where it was close to 0, and very rarely negative temps. As for the tarptent, mine is enclosed and I have used it year round, including my 2010 thru. It weighs probably about a pound with stakes, won't know until I get my scale. I don't see the need for a 4 season tent, I have heard they are too hot in anything besides winter, and I don't like owning a bunch of stuff, even backpacking gear. If I replace something, my old gear goes in my car or to friends.

I am getting lighter, my base pack weight for winter is about 10 lbs. I carry the same stuff year round, so it doesn't vary by much. I know many people are a lot lighter, but I am going to keep decreasing the weight until it feels good.

[Tipi Walter]

I've hiked out in the east/southeast in the winter. You don't really need a whole lot more than you need in, say, march or april on the AT. Add a down vest, an extra layer of polypro, fleece pants, good gloves, beefier sleeping pad, and wool socks and you're good to go. Had near record lows in the smokies--static temps in the single digits and 2-4 feet of snow. no problem



Explain how walking thru 4 feet of snow is no problem.