How do you fit it all in??????

[hikerjohnd]

OK - I have trimmed weight and size, followed the advice of many people here, and now I need your help again. I am comfortable with my gear decisions, and have lowered my base to 376 oz or 23.5 lbs (before food & water)

So now - how the heck does it all fit into the bag! I have a Nimbus Ozone pack and I'm waiting on delivery for the lid for the small stuff, but the rest just doesn't seem to fit! I have posted my pack list below - bear in mind it is just what is inside the pack - and the sleeping pad did not make it in on the first two attempts at packing! This is my first internal frame pack - Please Help!!!

:confused::confused::confused:

Camp Shoes - 14 oz - Crocs
Clothes - 16 oz – Socks x2, liner socks x2, nylon shorts (prevent chafing)
Cook set - 15.8 oz - still clinging to this - will prob send smaller pot home, but have to start with it
Data pouch – 22.3 oz - journal, maps, guide, etc.
First aid/grooming - 8.2 oz
Fuel Bottle – 21.2 oz
Kitchen kit - 7 oz - spices, utensils, soap (for pots and me), bandanna
Raingear - 22.4 oz –
Sleeping bag - 31.8 oz - North Face 15 deg
Sleeping pad - 3.7 oz
Stove w/ windscreen – 9.5 oz – Simmerlite
tent - 32 oz – Tarptent Virga - poles on outside (as is ground cloth)
Water filter - 12.7 oz - Katadyn hiker
water bottle - 6.4 oz – Nalegene
Winter Clothes – 54 oz – Fleece pullover & pants, MTS shirt & pants, gloves, polypro balaclava
Foodbag w/ 5 days food – 128 oz
5 day gorp supply – 20 oz

Thanks! :cool:

[Jack Tarlin]

John:

Some items might be able to be carried outside your pack, such as your camp shoes, sleeping pad, raincoat or fleece, even your tent. Even putting only one item outside the pack might get you a lot of space, inside, especially if its the sandals. Just make sure that anything hanging off of, or secured to your pack is tied/snapped on really well, as it's easier than you think to lose stuff that's outside the pack..

Other possible ideas: Most folks carry a smaller feul bottle. You almost certainly want to go with only one cook pot. A compression sack might be able to make your sleeping bag smaller in order to save space.

[smokymtnsteve]

I carry my sleeping pad outside my pack, i also carry my rain pants, jacket, tarp, and ground cloth rolled inside my sleeping pad, this way when i stop i can just unhook my sleeping pad from the top of my pack unroll it and have instant access to tarp and rain gear,

u can throw your tarp right over you and your unopened pack and set up camp without getting the inside of your pack wet.

[Mouse]

I put my fuel canister inside my pot, then put the pocket rocket stove and spoon into the pot's stuff sack. That squeezed my entire kitchen into one small bundle. My tent and water and raingear went into outside straps or pockets. I skipped camp footgear, but they can go outside as well.

[hikerjohnd]

:o

Ok - As a dedicated external frame pack guy moving into the scary world of the internal frame pack, it never occured to me to strap stuff on the outside! Of course, I have stuff lashed to the outside of my regular pack - I just had this vision of everything going on the inside!

Thanks for the feedback - and keep the ideas for what goes in vs out coming!

--John

[Footslogger]

:o
Ok - I just had this vision of everything going on the inside!
======================================
Well ...with the exception of a few things in the side pouches it's a good goal to try and get everything inside in the pack.

My guess is that once you start hiking you will find new ways to get it all (or most) inside. Plus you are very likely to get rid of some things you have at the beginning of your hike.

Once I pared back to what I really needed, I was able to get just about everything inside of a Vapor Trail and my total pack weight was around 26 lbs with 4 days of food and my starting water supply.

'Slogger
AT 2003

[wacocelt]

Howdy John!

Do you think you could use the compression straps on the sides of your Ozone to secure sleeping pad, rain gear and perhaps your camp shoes as well?

I'll also echo B.Jack on perhaps using a smaller fuel bottle. you might also be able to pare some weight out of your data pouch by breaking your books into a few hundred mile sections (if you haven't already done so).

I know you only asked for advice on how to fit it all in your pack, but I can't help m'self!

[hikerjohnd]

Howdy John!

Do you think you could use the compression straps on the sides of your Ozone to secure sleeping pad, rain gear and perhaps your camp shoes as well?

I'll also echo B.Jack on perhaps using a smaller fuel bottle. you might also be able to pare some weight out of your data pouch by breaking your books into a few hundred mile sections (if you haven't already done so).

I know you only asked for advice on how to fit it all in your pack, but I can't help m'self!
I am definitly going to lash stuff to the outside - I still can't believe I didn't think of that! If put the sleeping pad and the camp shoes on the outside, The rest will fit inside with ease. I repacked the tent into a smaller bag, but I may go back to the original sack because it is long and skinny and will ride nicely outside too, but I'm sure I'll pack and repack over and over again.

While you are all freely advising - how do you load your packs? What's on the bottom/middle/top? Kinda curious - rightnow my sleeping bag is on the bottom, and raingear on the top - but the raingear may get moved outside like smokymtnsteve suggested...

So now that I know how to get most of it in, which order does it go? :-?

[wacocelt]

So now that I know how to get most of it in, which order does it go?

Sleeping bag in the bottom, followed by clothes bag, tarp/tent, food and fuel, rain gear on top inside with sleeping pad lashed to the top. I prefer to keep my heaviest gear on top to try and distribute the load better ebtween my shoulders/hips.

I have known folks that keep all thier heavies in the bottom of thier pack, but this doesn't work at all, at all for me.

by the way john, I know I could look up when you're leaving but I'm lazy, so... when are you starting? My wife and I will be getting started the first week of March from Neels Gap, perhaps we'll see you out there! :D

[hikerjohnd]

I am doing a week over Spring Break - yea I know - busy time on the trail - and then I have to return for final exams. I will hit the trail April 15th, probably in Hot Springs, timing my hike to be in Damascus for Trail Days. My wife will meet me in Maine, where we'll drive back to Hot Springs (or where ever I start) and I'll hike south to Springer. The week over Spring Break is more of a shakedown period, but I am hiking for my thesis, so I'm hoping to meet up with a few hopeful thru hikers...

Hope to see you out there too! I know I'm getting excited! :clap:clap

[UCONNMike]

ditch the cold weather gear, and have it sent to you when you think youll need it, or put it in a bounce box and send it to a post office where you feel the gear will come in handy. and def ditch the nalgene, and get a platapus. and get aquamira or something equivalent instead of the water purifier. that should shead pounds off your base weight and clear room in the pack

[The Will]

If you are open to ideas on what to/not to take or possible substitutions, I would suggest the following.

1) If health concerns don't dictate otherwise, switch to chemical means (Iodine, chlorine) of water purification. This should save significant bulk over the water filter and may be more reliable as well.



2) Consider the necessity of the kitchen kit you mentioned. Additional spices may be a luxury you don't wish to part with, but maybe you could do without them. I have found that a single spoon serves all my needs--aside from a pocket knife for cheese and such.



3) Replace the Nalgene bottle with one of the collapsible Platypus water bladders. You could carry two, 2.4L Platys and together they would weight less and take up less space than the Nalgene. Other benefits of the Platys? They fold up and "disappear" when not in use and by carrying two you will be able to accommodate for dry sections of trail or campsites without water sources.

4) I've found that if I hike in running shoes--not everyones preference--I don't need camp footwear. The running shoes being comfortable enough to not dictate a change in footwear upon reaching camp.


I hope these suggestions help and also hope this doesn't start one of those "rake the other guys gear list over the coals" type threads.

[wacocelt]

I hope these suggestions help and also hope this doesn't start one of those "rake the other guys gear list over the coals" type threads.

I think most of the raking these days is being done to our collective trail conservancy, or lack there of.

To stay on topic, I agree totally about the trail runners. Every pound on your feet equates to 6+lbs of pack weight. With trail runners you give up some ankle support but gain a much lighter stride and the ability to choose each step much more carefully, as well as not stubbing your toes as often from your tired feet barely wanting to seperate from the ground.

[A-Train]

John,

I see you're from Georgia. If you've got some spare time I'd recommend driving over to Neels Gap/Walasi-yi Outfitters to get them to help you. Cornbread, an alumni thru-hiker helped me tremendously in coming up with a system to make everything fit well. My buddy Heald who has probably close to 15,000 trail miles is working down there between now and march so I think this could help quite a bit.

[Jack Tarlin]

John--

Celt had it right about packing your stuff, but a few additional comments:

In addition to putting stuff you're not likely to need during the day towards the bottom (sleeping bag, clothes, etc), it's very important not to bury stuff that you WILL need during the day, so the following items should be either at, or very close to the top of your pack, or in a side pocket:

*Snacks. (Don't bury your food bag too deep as you'll want it accessible!)
*Water Purification stuff (filters, iodine, etc.)
*First Aid kit
*Camera
*Maps, Guidebooks
*Flashlight
*Rain Gear (especially if it looks threatening)
*Cold weather accessories (hat, gloves, etc. You don't want 'em buried in
your clothes bag if the weather takes a turn for the worse).
*Radio, music player, etc.

Stuff like extra film or camera accessories, as well as back-up batteries should also be kept close at hand. (Batteries are a real pain in the ass to locate in the dark, especially if you don't know remember where you packed them!) Other stuff to maybe keep close at hand depends on you....if you like to cook a hot lunch, then don't bury your cookset. You like to read during lunch or write in your journal? Then don't bury your books. You'll figure it out.

It also can't hurt to put things in the SAME side or top pocket each day, so you'll get used to things being in the same place, and you won't have to dig for them or look in nine places. You also might want to use different colored stuff bags, so you'll always know that the green bag is spare clothes, the red one is food, the small black one is the cookset, the small yellow one is personal care stuff, etc. If you buy all red or blue stuff bags you'll go nuts.
Two last tips: Always carry extra ziplocks; they have all sorts of uses, such as transporting food, quarantining wet or fetid clothing, etc. And as for things to bury in your pack, bury you're wallet when you know you won't be needing it for awhile. It's much less likely to get lost or stolen if you only have it out when you know you're going to need it, and keep it stashed away when you know you don't.

[hikerjohnd]

In addition to putting stuff you're not likely to need during the day towards the bottom (sleeping bag, clothes, etc), it's very important not to bury stuff that you WILL need during the day, so the following items should be either at, or very close to the top of your pack, or in a side pocket: I've ordered the lid that goes with the Ozone -it's still not here yet, but it was to be shipped in this week. I'm hoping most of that small stuff will ride in there. For now, it's in the side pouches, but I'm not real comfortable with no security (open top) on them.

I've repacked and I can fit everything in, except for camp shoes and sleeping pad. I'm beginning to think the pounds I shaved switching from external to internal may just be worth it!



If you've got some spare time I'd recommend driving over to Neels Gap/Walasi-yi Outfitters to get them to help you. - as to a trip to Neels Gap - I definitly plan to stop by on my first week out - but it is like 350 miles from here so a day trip would be hard. Our local outfitter, Rec Arts, is undergoing an ownership change - they have great deals, but they seem more interested in sales than practical advice. I miss living in Atlanta...

[Skyline]

I carry my tarp-tent/ground cloth in their own stuff sack on the outside of my Mountainsmith Auspex pack, along with my snack bag, both held in place by the elastic straps on the rear. In the side pockets, my Camelback, pack cover, some TP in a ziploc, a Nalgene, the foot-end pole for the tarp-tent, and my water bag used for getting water at camp.

Advantage to carrying your shelter and poles outside your pack is you can get to them without opening up your pack if forced to set up in the rain. Maybe not an issue so much for those who use shelters, but for those of us who almost always tent, it makes a difference.

[Downunda]

I carried my sleeping pad on the outside of my pack and found this to be very convenient as I would often use the pad to sit on leaning back against a tree, or perhaps haul into a shelter around noon and lay the pad out for a comfortable quick break or nap (particularly in the heat of mid summer).

With the pad inside your pack you would have to remove quite a bit of stuff from the pack to remove and replace the sleeping pad... not so convenient.

[bulldog49]

I've been thinking about getting a Nimbus Ozone. If you get a chance please post a review after you use it.

[Mouse]

I found a pocket fitted to a shoulder strap (Like Collin Fletcher's 'Office') was good for camera, map, and snacks.

[Mooselook Marty]

What kind of sleeping bag do you have? Based on the weight, I am guessing it is down, which obviously compresses MUCH smaller. If not, maybe you might want to go with down.

[hikerjohnd]

I've been thinking about getting a Nimbus Ozone. If you get a chance please post a review after you use it. I will be happy to post a review - in the mean time - here is a review already written: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&highlight=nimbus+ozone

And yes - my sleeping bag is down - I'm thinking about a compression sack to help make it smaller - but it is pretty tight in the manufacturer's bag...

[tlbj6142]

I've been thinking about getting a Nimbus Ozone. If you get a chance please post a review after you use it.I've been looking at this pack for use as "Dad the packmule" pack when I hike with 2 of my kids. I put 45+ pounds of rope in it at my local outfitters. I'm sure it was more than 45# as the pack definately weighed more than my oldest child and she weighs more than 50# (their scale must be broken).

Any way, the pack was quite comfortable (if you can ever call 50# comfortable). Though I would want the wider shoulderstraps (they only had the narrow straps in stock). I love the pack mainly because it is so simple, 1 main bag and 2 side pockets (what else do you need?). Fully adjustable torso length (to make the pack fit near perfect). I do, wish they would "do away" with the decortive flaps on the back and just use compression straps. But, the "flaps" seem to be a GG "logo" of sorts.

There is plenty of pack volume, I'm sure I'll have no problem stuffing 3 sleeping bags, camp clothes for 2 (one child carries her own clothes), 3-man tent, food for a weekend and a couple of pads rolled up on the outside.

BTW, there are several real reviews of the ozone on www.backpackgeartest.org (http://www.backpackgeartest.org).

[Nightwalker]

Hey Jack,

Do you count base weight as skin out, or just dry weight in the pack?

I think it'd be great if we'd all do some online tuckerizing here. I've got my weight low, but I've learned a lot from many other guys here. I;'ve hiked a heck of a lot of miles, but never carried my house on my back for six months. :-)

You guys that have never tried this wanna hear a big-deal difference for me between this year and last year? Last year I was terrified and didn't even know it! "What if I forget XXXX?" "What if I need XXXX?" Now, I'm just test-hiking a bunch of stuff, a week at a time, and lightening, lightening, lightening.

It seemes as if the big change that I see besides the weight a person loses between GA and ME is the weight their pack does. Of course, they get tougher and their life gets simpler. I can't even try to speak to that set of circumstances yet.

I think that these guys are right about the overplanning though. It'll kill you. It'll sure make your head hurt. I'll post my gear list in a bit. It'll change as I get closer to April, as I'm going to (for instance) make a rainsuit and some lighter trekking poles. I'm also gonna make a Bilgy tarp tent at 1 lb 12 oz instead of my LightYear CD at 2 lb 15 oz.

I'm not an ultralighter. If it ain't comfy, I don't want it. You'd be surprised, however, how much junk I've carried over a period of time that never came out of the pack.

Frank/Nightwalker

[Nightwalker]

Sleeping bag in the bottom, followed by clothes bag.I know that is the standard suggestion from the manufacturer, but with sleeping bags being stuffed tighter these days, aren't the clothes the least dense items now?

I try to put whatever's least dense on bottom, and end up with the most dense--always the food bag--nearest to my back and between my shoulder blades.

Frank/Nightwalker

[wacocelt]

The only thing I actually pack according to weight alone is my food bag. The sleeping bag goes on the bottom because it's the last thing I need to take out of my pack at camp and the first thing packed in the morning.

[Jack Tarlin]

Frank:

I've never paid much attention to pack weight, so I'm probably the last person to be talking about it.

But in most of the conversations I've been party to, "base weight" usually refers to what your pack weighs with everything in it (including of course the weight of the pack itself), but NOT including the weight of your food and water.

[wacocelt]

From how I garner the meanings...
Base Weight = the total of all gear in and including pack, but not food and water
FSO (From Skin Out) = the total of all gear from head to toe, including pack and it's contents, sans food and water
Wet Weight = either of the above deifinitions WITH food and water. i.e. Base weight-wet, FSO-wet

Sometimes fuel is factored into base weight, sometimes it is calculated into the wet weight.

[hikerjohnd]

From how I garner the meanings...
Base Weight = the total of all gear in and including pack, but not food and water
FSO (From Skin Out) = the total of all gear from head to toe, including pack and it's contents, sans food and water
Wet Weight = either of the above deifinitions WITH food and water. i.e. Base weight-wet, FSO-wet

Sometimes fuel is factored into base weight, sometimes it is calculated into the wet weight.
I never realized that fuel was sometimes optional - the only thing I exclude is food and water since they can vary greatly depending on plans... I was a bit perplexed when I was advised to get smaller fuel bottle - I have an MSR ti bottle and the weight listed is when its full. I know I don't have to fill it up, but it weighs less than my 11oz bottle, so I thought I'd go with it...

--John

[wacocelt]

Sorry for the confusion John. I use denatured alcohol, carried in a Scope bottle, which when empty weighs about 2oz but when full carries 17oz. Since fuel is a perishable I count it as 'wet' and when weighing my 'base weight' use an empty fuel bottle.

[Nightwalker]

I'm not, and never wil be, an ultralight guy. I did, however, learn a lot from them.

And from Datto (http://http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/dattosadvice.php), and Jack (http://http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54384&postcount=9), which is why I decided do do a lot of dehydrating, not for all of my food, but to add to the stuff I buy in grocery stores along the trail. Dehydrated Brown rice and veggies and sausage and other goodies makes trail food less bland, and makes stuff lighter.

Will a light pack get you to Maine? Nope. I talked to a woman at the Soruck that was about 5'4"-5'6" and slim-but-strong. She never figured out how to lighten her pack. Carried 52-55 pounds out of towns all the way to Maine.

It makes it easier though. I'd rather go light and comfy than heavy and not. Sharpen up yer knives and have at it. :D

Thanks for the help,
Frank/Nightwalker


Category/ Item/Weight(oz)/Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Backpacks
Osprey Aether 60 liter 40.0
3 Nested Tall Kitchen Can Bags 1.00 (Pack liner)

Clothes
2 Pairs Men's Dress Nylon Socks 2.2 (Both worn. Blisterfree!)
Balaclava 1.60
Fleece Pullover 12.40 (Hope to have a lighter one before go time.)
Hiking Jersey 6.60
Liner Gloves 2.20 (Wear with trekking poles or under insulated glove)
Multi-Use Implement of Destruction 1.80 (Felt Doo Rag-Bandana-PackTowel-Water Filter)
Nike ACG Trail Runners 37.3 (With Apex AntiShox Insoles)
Outbrook Insulated Gloves 4.10 (Dupont Thermolite Microfiber & Nylon)
Polypro Longjohn Bottoms 7.3
Starter Hiking Shorts 4.80
Wool Shirt 11.8
Cooking
#2 Coffee Drip Basket 1.60 (I am tapering off of coffee. Almost done.)
12 ounce plastic cup 2.6
2 Lexan Spoons 0.50 (I lose stuff!)
2 Medicine Cups 0.1 (For measuring alcohol. 1 spare in first-aid kit.)
2 Water Bottles 4.00 (Empty Gatorade Bottles)
2-liter Platypus 3.4 (For extra water capacity and for taking to camp.)
Alcohol Bottle 0.80 (20 oz water bottle with "sports" lid)
Baby Bic 0.4 (Kept in pack with First-Aid kit)
Bic Lighter 0.7 (Kept with pot and stove)
Fire Cotton 1.0
Measuring cup 1.9
Pot Cozy 2.30 (Working on lighter version.)
Sil-Nylon Food Bag 1.00
Snow Peak Trek 1400 Ti 5.1 ("Custom" insulated lid instead of frying pan lid.)
Soap 1.00 (1 oz. squeeze bottle half full)
TinMan RedBull Stove 0.3
Wind Screen 0.7
First Aid
Ace Bandage 1.40
Gold Bond Powder 1.5
Migraine Meds and Vitamins (Week) 2.10
Triple Atibiotic Ointment 0.80 (Dual-use. Wound care and chapped-lip stuff)
Miscellaneous
50 Feet Polypro Rope 1.30 (Lots lighter than 3 mm trip-tease)
Gerber Clip Knife 1.2
Princeton Tec Aurora Headlamp 2.90
Princeton Tec Pulsar 0.20 (LED backup light)
Spare Headlamp Batteries 1.20
Water Purifier 1.10 (6% Sodium Hypoclorite in a 2 oz. bottle. 3/liter)
Worlds Smallest Bible 7.5
Rain Gear
Generic Frog-Togs Jacket 6.20 (For wind, rain and outer layer)
Generic Frog-Togs Pants 4.50 (For wind, rain and outer layer)
Sleeping
Air Pillow 3.5 (2.00 bath pillow from Wal-Mart. Comfy!)
Ridgerest Deluxe 3/4 14.00
Sleeping Bag 24.0 (Mountainsmith Wisp 30° 750+ Down w/DWR cover)
Thorlo Tent Socks 3.40
Tent
Lightyear CD 47.0

Total Weight of Items 284.30 oz.
17 lbs 12.3 oz

[Jack Tarlin]

I think you're looking great!

You might (repeat, might) wanna ditch the wool shirt for something lighter or more compact. You can also use your extra clothes bag for a pillow.

But really, Frank, you're lookin' pretty good, even with the stuff you're bringing two of!

[Jack Tarlin]

One comment: I know you've included a "miscellaneous" section, but I'm afraid you will be gaining some additional pack weight, as I assume you'll be bringing along such things as a camera, case, spare battery, film, accessories, maps/guides/handbook, journal, and other odds and ends. Even so, you still look to be in fine shape.

[flyfisher]

Lots of good advice here. Skimming, I did not see a recommendation to put stuff in ... stuff sacks.

It helps me when packing up to have my 5-6 little bags that need to go in the pack. It really helps in the middle of the day when I need something deep in my pack to be able to reach down and pull out the right stuff sack.

[Footslogger]

Lots of good advice here. Skimming, I did not see a recommendation to put stuff in ... stuff sacks.

It helps me when packing up to have my 5-6 little bags that need to go in the pack. It really helps in the middle of the day when I need something deep in my pack to be able to reach down and pull out the right stuff sack.==================================
Ditto ...especially with the top loading internal frame packs. Makes unloading and loading SO much less hassle. I managed to get all my food/sleeping bag/clothing/tent into 4 silnylon stuff sacks (about 7 x 15"). They lay horizontally in the pack. Add to that a small stuff sack containing my cookpot/stove/utensils. Last item is my Platypus, which lays horizontally across the top of the pack. About the only other thing that gets stuffed individually into the top of the pack is a jacket to which I want/need quick access. Everything else gets stuck into one of the outside pouches of the pack.

'Slogger
AT 2003

[flyfisher]

For an example of my stuff sack system:

http://www.imrisk.com/zaleskimarch04/P3120003_web.JPG

[Doctari]

You mention that you may send the small pot home after hitting the trail. Are you hiking solo or w partner? Perhaps going to a small single pot (1 ltr or so) will reduce the size (& weight) of your cook set. Does your stove fit inside the cook set? Could it fit if you "Loose" the small pot? Can you go to a smaller fuel bottle? How about an alcohol ("Pepsi can") stove? My alcohol stove fits easily inside a cat food can, the fuel bottle is only a 16 Oz MtDew bottle.
Old, fat me, with a 58 Lb pack weight made it Springer to Neill's Gap in under 4 days, perhaps you could leave behind 1 day worth of food. Or at least 1 breakfast & 1 dinner as you will not need the breakfast AM day one, or dinner PM day 5.

I will be leaving the water filter home next trip (section hike #6), perhaps along the trail you too will do so.

Doctari.