View Full Version : Help me understand energy foods
Why is it I have a greater kick in the morning in starting my hike if i have my coffee and something like tuna or some other protein instead of a carb load like oatmeal? I thought carbs were the thing to give the getup and go feelings.
Footslogger
02-10-2005, 16:25
Why is it I have a greater kick in the morning in starting my hike if i have my coffee and something like tuna or some other protein instead of a carb load like oatmeal? I thought carbs were the thing to give the getup and go feelings.=============================
Educated guess here ...but it's more likely the coffee that gives you the kick than the tuna. The protein from the tuna gets stored for muscle rejuvenation/repair later on.
Put more sugar in your oatmeal and you'll probably get the kick your looking for in a carbohydrate based breakfast.
'Slogger
AT 2003
Mountain Dew
02-10-2005, 17:03
Caffeine is the reason why. After a few hours the caffeine wears off and you'll have a dramatic drop in energy unless you eat something that will replinish your body's "fuel cell".
The Cheat
02-10-2005, 17:20
Why is it I have a greater kick in the morning in starting my hike if i have my coffee and something like tuna or some other protein instead of a carb load like oatmeal? I thought carbs were the thing to give the getup and go feelings.
Sounds to me like you had the coffee either way, with a protein or with oatmeal. Is that correct?
SalParadise
02-10-2005, 17:26
The caffeine will get you an immediate jump, but it has an effect similar to alcohol and works to dehydrate you in the long run.
Carbohydrates are great for stored energy. They won't hit you right away because your body needs a bit of time to convert the carbs to sugars. The oatmeal you eat in the morning will keep your energy from lagging in the evening.
The caffeine will get you an immediate jump, but it has an effect similar to alcohol and works to dehydrate you in the long run.
Carbohydrates are great for stored energy. They won't hit you right away because your body needs a bit of time to convert the carbs to sugars. The oatmeal you eat in the morning will keep your energy from lagging in the evening.
This is why poptarts are so bad for breakfast. Even though a sleeve of them has about 400 calories, they have so much refined sugar that the energy just doesn't stay with you. Even if I eat two sleeves (800 C), I get about as much usable energy as 400 calories from granola bar-ish things.
If I could do it, I would have a 6 egg omelet with lots of cheese and bacon for breakfast every day on the trail, along with 4 slices of wholegrain toast and a pot of black, strong coffee. All the fat and protein for long term juice, and the toast and coffee would give me enough jump to get going. I wouldn't have to eat for another 4 hours. Since I'm not willing to haul the stuff to do this, I currently eat 3 muffin bars for breakfast when out hiking.
The caffeine will get you an immediate jump, but it has an effect similar to alcohol and works to dehydrate you in the long run.
Contrary to popular opinion, coffee does NOT dehydrate you. Neither does any other caffeinated beverage. Any one who drinks coffee on a regular basis, as in at least a cup every day or two, is habituated to it. If you haven't had any caffeine in at least three days then it will have a slight dehydrating effect.
SGT Rock
02-10-2005, 20:26
I agree, I drink coffee all the time and it doesn't cause a dehydration issue at all.In fact, the couple of times I have been dehydrated were on days without coffee, not that lack of coffee caused it. More likely having just gotten over a stomach bug and still trying to ruck and/or PT.
Footslogger
02-10-2005, 20:51
Correct ...coffee (unlike alcohol) in and of itself does not cause dehydration. What it (caffiene) does though is trigger urination and a greater than normal loss of body fluid.
You drink enough coffee and don't replace fluids somehow and you're gonna get dehydrated ...on top of an upset or at least hyperacid stomach. You can take that one to the bank.
'Slogger
AT 2003
it seems a protein breakfast will get me going better than a carb breakfast. Just curious to me that all Ive ever read says carbs give the energy, not protein.
Whistler
02-10-2005, 22:29
One of the reasons oatmeal might not give a kick in the morning is because it's high in fiber, and low in natural sugars. Pop tarts will get you moving, but the energy won't last, because they're very low in fiber. Sugars are nice quick uppers. Fiber is a barrier to digestion, and helps to stabilize the whole process.
Chris' ideal breakfast sounds along the right lines. Carbs are the spark, fats and proteins let you simmer all day long. I think it has to do with glycemic index and glycemic load and so forth.
Take 2 items with the same amount of carbs/unit, and the item with more fiber/ fat/ protein will sustain you longer, and you can avoid spiking and crashing. E.g. whole fruit v. fruit juice, Nature Valley v. 3 Musketeers, etc.
-Mark
A high protein breakfast will keep you going longer. Oats have a relatively high protein content, for grains. Tuna has even more. The caffeine will jump start your system. Any dietician or nutritionist worth a durn will tell you that an overload of sugar will give you an initial lift (blood sugar spike), then a steep drop. That's because your pancreas dumps insulin into the bloodstream at the first sign of sugar intake. The insulin helps transport glucose (blood sugar) into your cells, taking it out of the bloodstream, thereby lowering blood sugar. Your brain is completely dependent on glucose for energy, so when your blood sugar drops, so does your brain function. When your blood sugar drops, you will feel tired, depressed, headachey, foggy, etc.
Our bodies were not designed to handle absurd amounts of sugar.
Bottom line: Stick with tea/coffee and oatmeal, cut back on the tuna (which contains mercury).
Correct ...coffee (unlike alcohol) in and of itself does not cause dehydration. What it (caffiene) does though is trigger urination and a greater than normal loss of body fluid.
You drink enough coffee and don't replace fluids somehow and you're gonna get dehydrated ...on top of an upset or at least hyperacid stomach. You can take that one to the bank.
'Slogger
AT 2003 Simply not true. Drinking ANY fluid will trigger urination if it's more than your body can process. It's very well documented that caffeine does not cause a greater than normal loss of body fluid. It's a well spread urban legend that it cause dehydration. From the National Institutes of Health: "Investigations comparing caffeine to water or placebo seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume. In the 10 studies reviewed consumption of a caffeinated beverage resulted in 0-84% retention of the initial volume ingested, whereas consumtion of water resulted in 0-81% retention."
And the pH of coffee is only slightly more acidic than the pH of your mouth (saliva) and much less acidic than the inside of your stomache.
orangebug
02-11-2005, 09:44
In general,the optimum breakfast will have a balance of carbohydrates for quick energy and fats & proteins for longer term fuel. Caffiene is only icing on the cake. It doesn't hurt you and may make you feel better.
I've gotten into making Carnation Instant Breakfast with powdered whole milk for hiking. I like the chocolate, get good sugar, fats, protein and vitamin supplementation. I can heat the water and make it a hot cocoa, or just grab and go as I start the morning walk. Ths is very convenient for a section hiker. I don't know how easy it is to find whole milk at the usual trail towns. In Atlanta, I have to go to ethnic grocers.
SGT Rock
02-11-2005, 10:16
So some grits with butter and beef jerky chased down with a hotcup of joe is good for you? SWEET, and I was doing it right this whole time!
Fiddleback
02-11-2005, 10:20
My Super WalMart stocks NIDO powdered whole milk in the Mexican foods section. Since my area's Hispanic population is less than 2%, I assume this food item is not stocked for ethnic-targeted sales and should be found in any Super WalMart. Up until I started cruising these forums I didn't know there was powdered 'whole' milk. Having grown up on powdered skim milk (:( ) I think the NIDO is a big improvement.
FB
Footslogger
02-11-2005, 10:49
Simply not true. Drinking ANY fluid will trigger urination if it's more than your body can process. From the National Institutes of Health: "Investigations comparing caffeine to water or placebo seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume. In the 10 studies reviewed consumption of a caffeinated beverage resulted in 0-84% retention of the initial volume ingested, whereas consumtion of water resulted in 0-81% retention."
And the pH of coffee is only slightly more acidic than the pH of your mouth (saliva) and much less acidic than the inside of your stomache.========================================= =====
Probably not worth debating in this forum ...but it wouldn't be the first time that science got it wrong ( ...and I say that coming from a scientific background). Sure, rapid intake of high fluid volumes will cause the body to dump in an attempt to regulate homeostasis. But, stop and think about the "jitters" we get if we consume too much coffee or other caffeinated beverage. We don't get that effect with water or juices. NIH studies or not, the caffeine is a vasoconstricter and it elevates heart rate. That in turn bumps up the various processes in the body, one of which is fluid output through the kidneys.
Relatively speaking, the pH of coffee may be lower than that of HCL acid in the stomach. However the presence of solids and liquids generally causes the production of digestive fluids, a main component of which is HCL. So, the acid from coffee is compounded by the generation of HCL. For some of us that's not an issue but for others, with pre-existing hyperacid conditions it can be problematic. Why is it that for those folks one of the first diet changes made by their physician is the elimination of coffee and caffeinated beverages?
Given the depth of your reply I am concluding you have a good background in physiology. I wouldn't have made my comments if I also did not have some background and experience on the topic.
The topic of this thread is nutrition so I'm going to check out at this point. I just felt that readers might need/want a balance to the information.
'Slogger
AT 2003
grrickar
02-11-2005, 22:55
High protein sources like tuna aren't going to have as many calories as a carb-rich food such as granola, grits or oatmeal. The latter three are complex carbs that will should give you a steady source of energy. Eating a large amount of refined sugar will give you a quick spike of energy, then you'll feel spent shortly thereafter. If you have ever been on a high protein diet such as Atkins you'll find that the first few days of depriving your body of carbs will make you feel somewhat lightheaded and weak. After a few days, when your body starts to burn fat cells for fuel, you start getting your energy back. Everyone is different, so go with whatever works for you.
Why is it I have a greater kick in the morning in starting my hike if i have my coffee and something like tuna or some other protein instead of a carb load like oatmeal? I thought carbs were the thing to give the getup and go feelings.:eek: Danger: non-scientific thoery about everything that goes through the mind. You have been warned! :eek: :)
the mind works like this... A + B + C = D
Example... morning + coffee + protein = greater kick
Pretty much the psyche experiences the greater kick once and says, "this is cool, but whatever". If it experiences it two or more times it is declared a pattern and it creates a linkage or rule as to how this experience came about: morning + coffee + protein = greater kick.
You'll notice that not everyone will claim greater kick after eating the same foods you do. That combination might slow others down or give them a stomach ache. There are many examples of this out there. Some medications don't work on some people while they will kill others. Two beers are my limit while some people use a six-pack to get a buzz on. (here I'm throwing in linkages/rules of body size and chemistry) Folks have different linkages.
You're experiencing the meshing of rules you have around food. This combination of your food rules = "greater kick" to you. Now, the invented rules aren't bad. Just know that they're there. Know that you can have the greater kick anytime you wish. You really aren't limited by oatmeal in the morning, it's just your linkages say it is so.
If some morning you are stuck with oatmeal, just tell yourself you're going to change the rules now. It can be done, though you might have to work at it a while -- habits can be hard to break. (ooops, THAT is a linkage too :)... habits + hard to break)
Anyway... I just wanted to shower the world with a little bit of my craziness.
-Dharma, Sewerman of the Psyche
HikeLite
02-19-2005, 09:53
http://www.howstuffworks.com/caffeine.htm/printable
Caffeine is a mild diuretic. I would like the link to kncats article saying it isn't.
oldfivetango
02-19-2005, 10:30
==============================================
Probably not worth debating in this forum ...but it wouldn't be the first time that science got it wrong ( ...and I say that coming from a scientific background). Sure, rapid intake of high fluid volumes will cause the body to dump in an attempt to regulate homeostasis. But, stop and think about the "jitters" we get if we consume too much coffee or other caffeinated beverage. We don't get that effect with water or juices. NIH studies or not, the caffeine is a vasoconstricter and it elevates heart rate. That in turn bumps up the various processes in the body, one of which is fluid output through the kidneys.
Relatively speaking, the pH of coffee may be lower than that of HCL acid in the stomach. However the presence of solids and liquids generally causes the production of digestive fluids, a main component of which is HCL. So, the acid from coffee is compounded by the generation of HCL. For some of us that's not an issue but for others, with pre-existing hyperacid conditions it can be problematic. Why is it that for those folks one of the first diet changes made by their physician is the elimination of coffee and caffeinated beverages?
Given the depth of your reply I am concluding you have a good background in physiology. I wouldn't have made my comments if I also did not have some background and experience on the topic.
The topic of this thread is nutrition so I'm going to check out at this point. I just felt that readers might need/want a balance to the information.
'Slogger
AT 2003 All i know is what i see.I drink lots of coffee everyday and have for years.
People told me it was BAD for me(but these were Baptist people and i think
they thought i was having too much fun) but i kept on drinking it.I was glad i did because in the last few months i have read that coffee is an antioxidant and also that it may help prevent liver cancer.Then there is the crowd that thinks coffee is bad for your blood pressure.Yeah,i'm a type A person drinking about 6 cups per day-last blood pressure was 112/72 and for a fat and 52 old white boy that aint so bad.
The down side of all this for me anyways is that coffee does make me pee like the proverbial race horse.So on days where travel is involved i only have about 3 sips to get my wake up fix of caffeine and drink that easy to hold stuff-tap water;and absolutely no soft drinks(thats soda-for you northerners).It makes a huge difference for me anyway.
I am wondering,however, if there are any studies out there with coffee pursuant to joint inflamation?If there is i would be keenly interested.Had a back spasm this week and it may well be ruining my plans to hike from springer up to Johnson City(about 330 miles)-bummer.I'm at the point of getting a cortizone/steroidal injection.Anybody had one of those for back pain?I'm ready to try it-even if it means i can forget ever playing professional sports-hehe.
Cheers to all,
Oldfivetango:bse
Here's what the Daily Mail thinks about coffee. I think the mail is published in England, but it may be Canada.
It is suspected that too much coffee can trigger an irregular heartbeat (heart arrhythmia) in those prone to the condition, which affects around 2 per cent of the population. The problem is believed to be caused by the stimulant caffeine. However, the British Heart Foundation says that drinking moderate amounts is unlikely to increase the risk of developing arrhythmia in those not already susceptible to it.
Blood pressure Research into whether caffeine raises blood pressure took a new turn in 2003, when a team at Edinburgh University tested its effect on the arteries around the heart - rather than in the arm as normal. After the caffeine equivalent of four to five cups of coffee, volunteers' blood pressure rose sharply, even though the arteries in the arm showed no change. This hidden rise may explain why previous studies regarding caffeine and high blood pressure have been inconclusive. The long-term effects on the cardiovascular system are still unknown.
The Stomach
Coffee does not cause ulcers but could aggravate existing ones, because it stimulates the stomach's acid secretions.
Diabetes
Two reports this year have shown different views on caffeine and Type 2 diabetes, which is controlled by diet and drugs rather than insulin injections. American research found a link between coffee at mealtimes and increased blood sugar, indicating that caffeine could make this form of diabetes worse by interfering with blood sugar control. Diabetes UK, however, felt the study was too small (14 people) to make any recommendations, other than encouraging diabetics to check their blood sugar regularly so they are aware of fluctuations.
Conversely, research by Helsinki's National Public Health Institute found that coffee appeared to protect people from developing Type 2 diabetes in the first place. This is backed up by a report from the Harvard School of Public Health, which also suggests it is minerals in coffee - rather than the caffeine it contains - that have a protective effect.
Dehydration
There seems little doubt that coffee is a diuretic, encouraging the body to lose fluid, though some studies, including one published by the National Academy of Sciences in America, claim the effects are negligible. Migraine Coffee has long been listed as a possible trigger for migraine.This is thought to be due to compounds called amines in coffee, which stimulate blood platelets in the brain to clump together, releasing the chemical messenger serotonin and so triggering a migraine.
Loss of vitamins and minerals
Caffeine inhibits the body's absorption of iron and other nutrients, and causes calcium to be expelled from the body in urine. There has been concern this could increase the risk of osteoporosis. However, research is inconclusive, according to a UK Government report on nutrition and bone health, and in any case most people drink coffee with milk, increasing their overall calcium intake.
Fertility
Caffeine has been associated with low fertility. One study maintained that three or more cups a day was enough to reduce the chances of conceiving, though the results were partly based on what women could remember about their coffee consumption ten years previously.
But researchers at Sao Paulo University in Brazil discovered that men who regularly drank coffee had stronger sperm than men who did not. It is thought that caffeine has a stimulating effect on sperm, just as it does on the central nervous system.
Pregnancy
The Food Standards Agency issued a warning to pregnant women earlier this year after research suggested caffeine could be harmful to an unborn child. Pregnancy also slows down the elimination of caffeine from the system. The recommended daily limit for pregnant women is 300mg of caffeine, roughly equivalent to four cups of instant coffee, or three cups of freshly brewed.
THE GOOD NEWS
Antioxidants
Like both black and green tea, coffee contains antioxidants, which can help prevent the cell mutation which may lead to cancer.
Headaches
Surprisingly - given that it can be a migraine trigger - the caffeine in coffee can also help cure headaches. It is one of the ingredients in some headache pills because it increases the power of aspirin and other painkillers by as much as 40 per cent.
Brain stimulation
As coffee is a stimulant, it can help concentration. Earlier this year Dr Chiara Trombetti, of the Humanitas Gavazzeni Institute in Italy, went as far as suggesting a morning cup of milky coffee could get sleepy schoolchildren off to a good start. However, that is unlikely to be echoed by nutritionists here, who recommend sufficient sleep and good diet as better ways to cope with the mental demands of the day.
Liver health
Doctors cannot explain the link, but several studies have shown that coffee drinkers are less likely to develop liver disease, including cirrhosis of the liver.
Gallstones
Women are twice as likely as men to develop gallstones. In one study, women who drank four cups of coffee each day were 25 per cent less likely to need surgery for gallstones than non-drinkers.
Good for the skin?
Caffeine appeared to improve microcirculation when applied to the skin in one study, making cellulite look better.
Weary
I don't think anyone mentioned this, but caffeine is not an energy food, its an addictive stimulant, a timid and oh-so cute-and-cuddly cousin of crystal meth.
If one drinks coffee on a regular basis, then stops, the result is a constriction of [something] in the neck. This causes headaches, a withdrawal symptom. This is why caffeine is in headache medicine.
Ocassional use will cause the user to speed up, :banana
but daily use gets boring. :(
Let's see... withdrawal, tolerance... :-? sounds like an addictive chemical.
That said, know that I LOVE a big, steaming cup of strong coffee morning (noon, or night)...
But I know something ain't stirrin' the koolaid when I find it more difficult to quit drinking coffee than to quit smoking. :eek:
As for the trail, making decent coffee is a pain in the butt.
Don't disgrace Juan Valdez with crappy cowboy coffee. :)
Try tea, ween yourself off the drug with caffiene pills, or go cold turkey and risk a withdrawal day or two.
Get your energy from tasty food.
Leave the coffee in the machine world.