View Full Version : Feral Hogs in the GSMNP: FYI
colonel r
08-22-2011, 15:09
Back in march I had an encounter with a very large hog on the trail, West Prong Branch, where he became very agitated and charged me.
I wrote the park to report the incident and to get a reading on the use of firearms to protect life and limb. I was armed at the time but was so deep in my pack to be of no use. Here is the response I received from the Chief Ranger from the GSMNP:
(He gave me permission to quote him directly)
"Your message was forwarded to me for a response. The technical answer to your question concerning the use of a firearm would depend upon the specific circumstances relating to the incident itself; i.e. was use of a firearm necessary to prevent physical harm to oneself or others? If the answer is "yes," then you would have a good legal defense. Experience has shown, though, that such instances would be extremely rare. I discussed this issue with our head of our Wildlife Management Branch, who has spent his career managing--among other animals--wild hogs in the park. He advised that in his 20 years here we have never had anyone seriously injured by a wild hog. Out of the many millions of people who hike in the park each year, he could think of only two cases in 20 years where visitors were knocked down by hogs. In both instances, the hog was running down the trail and our biologists believe they unknowingly ran into visitors on the trail. He knows of only one case where a female hog chased a boy to protect her piglet. The hog bruised the foot of the boy. As you can see your odds of becoming injured by a wild hog is extraordinary low. If, after your close encounter, you would still feel more comfortable with an added layer of protection, we suggest you carry a bear spray repellent. It is much lighter than a firearm, effective, and you won't have to worry about resisting the urge to use the firearm in a situation where an inadequate justification exists for its use. I hope this addresses your concern. Thank you for seeking our guidance and I hope that you continue to enjoy your visits to the park and add on to your long and impressive record of hiking in the park."
This Spring I came across an entire family of wild hogs on the BMT/MTS trail about 2 miles west of campsite 52. The mother Hog was a giant and when she saw me, she let out a loud grunt and her face suddenly looked very distressed. I immediately looked for a rock but saw none. I was ready to drop the pack and run for a tree. Fortunately, the mother and about 20 piglets headed down the gulley and up the other side. The line of little pigs kept going and going. It was interesting and a bit scary. I think I'd rather see a bear.
waywardfool
08-22-2011, 15:30
(quoting the Chief Ranger): "then you would have a good legal defense"
In Other Words: You would be charged and tried in court, and after spending 10 to 15 thousand bucks on a legal team, you might, maybe, get out of it.
They used to warn about feral hogs in GSMNP in the Companion but no longer do. The History channel had a special on them awhile back. If they gore you in the leg, they could break an artery and you could bleed to death. So I think that would justify shooting one since you can now bring a concealed weapon into a national park.
Most handguns a hiker would carry would only make a feral hog mad unless you are a perfect shot (unlikely if being charged) or very lucky.
I prefer PGC's policy since they aren't wildlife, they're just feral hogs. Up here, our wildlife biologists expend a couple of rounds and resume their responsibilities related to managing wildlife.
HiKen2011
08-22-2011, 16:37
They are rampant here in north GA. Not sure what the answer is? They eat everything that the whitetail and other species eat, does that make them less deserving??? Not sure.
Well, they do tear up the trails (rooting) and cause erosion, plus each liter consists of about 12 to 18. The multiply very fast and eat a lot.
Majortrauma
08-22-2011, 16:57
This is another one of those questions people ask here that make me say "Huh???
Unless you had a bunch of people around how would anyone know you shot the damn thing?
Common sense says that if a feral pig or even a raccoon were to become aggressive, you shoot it if you have your weapon accessible.
I genuinely dont care what the Ranger says; I'll take my chances with the law on that one and bet they will not choose to prosecute.
I genuinely dont care what the Ranger says; I'll take my chances with the law on that one and bet they will not choose to prosecute.
That's got to be one of the most stupid posts I've seen in more than 5 years of reading this drivel. I suggest you go to GSMNP today and start shooting. Send them an email and let them know where to find you.
Pedaling Fool
08-22-2011, 17:16
...Out of the many millions of people who hike in the park each year, he could think of only two cases in 20 years where visitors were knocked down by hogs...
They always confuse the total number of visitors with total number of hikers.
Maybe he wasn't referring to the nose-thumbing through hikers who are above reproach and can do no harm. I'd really like to know how many through hikers of all kinds use GSMNP, but it would probably take a Freedom of Information Act request to get those numbers.
My WhiteBlaze.net time in the last several days has driven my sarcasm to a level never achieved in more than 50 years. If this thread weren't about feral hogs, I'd think it's time for a break.
I am seeing signs of more posts originating from Pennsylvania. Maybe the time has come when I could stand down and see what develops.
Majortrauma
08-22-2011, 17:36
That's got to be one of the most stupid posts I've seen in more than 5 years of reading this drivel. I suggest you go to GSMNP today and start shooting. Send them an email and let them know where to find you.
Hmmm, after reading my post I think I see what emerald is trying to say and yeah, it does look like I'm on the short school bus with that comment.
What I "intended" my post to say was that "If" I were to be charged by a feral hog and "if" I were to shoot the feral hog and "if" someone were to observe my shooting the feral hog and report me to a Ranger I would rather deal with the law and the consequences of breaking the law as opposed to being chased, gored or whatever by the feral hog.
Pedaling Fool
08-22-2011, 17:46
I wasn't referring to just thru-hikers either. I don't know the number of hikers and neither do you, but common sense tells me that it's not in the millions. Although I can see this now going into the area of definition of a "hiker".
But it's a very relevant point. If there were really only two attacks (that were not really attacks) in 20 years with potentially millions of chances (i.e. millions of hikers) each of those 20 years than that must mean that these hogs are harmless. But if there's only, say 20,000 hikers each year...
It does raise an interesting question of how many hikers the park really sees. But I don't feel like first getting into a discussion of how to define a hiker.
I see what emerald is trying to say and yeah, it does look like I'm on the short school bus with that comment.
I knew you were smarter than you appeared to be. Good for all of us.
Blah, blah, blah... these hogs are harmless.
Maybe to hikers. Otherwise, I say BS.
Pedaling Fool
08-22-2011, 17:56
Maybe to hikers. Otherwise, I say BS.
I'm NOT saying they're harmless; I'd be much more wary around a hog than a bear. It's the "statistics" that the...ahh, forget it I'm sick of breakin' things down for you...
I understood you perfectly and you know it.
colonel r
08-22-2011, 18:13
Please don't go off on tangents with this. This was a personal message from the Chief Ranger and I was impressed. He was encouraging me to use non lethal methods. When I wrote him back I thanked him for not taking an anti gun stand. I can understand his hesitation because people react differently under stress.
I have changed calibers and gone to solid copper bullets and have made the handgun accessible while hiking in a concealed fashion. I will consider the bear spray but when hiking with grand kids it changes the equation.
In summary, I think the park personnel want to know of encounters. A little research shows they have killed a large number of the hogs but they do breed so fast and they are a menace in more places than just the park. There are far more day hikers there than thru on any given day.
WingedMonkey
08-22-2011, 18:20
Back in march I had an encounter with a very large hog on the trail, West Prong Branch, where he became very agitated and charged me.
I wrote the park to report the incident and to get a reading on the use of firearms to protect life and limb. I was armed at the time but was so deep in my pack to be of no use. Here is the response I received from the Chief Ranger from the GSMNP:
Florida is invaded by feral pigs and they are finally allowing no limit licensed hunts in most management areas. BUT the OP was about shooting one in GSMNP.
First I don't understand why you would carry a concealed firearm that you can't get to, that could be another long thread.
Now that National Parks allow carry with permit I won't fight that issue. What the ranger was trying to say was yes you can carry, but that it also means you can't shoot unless it is for protection.
This is to prevent someone like me from going hog hunting in a National Park and then claiming it was self defense if I get caught shooting one, or some bird-brain from just killing bears and snakes if he doesn't like them. That particular park already has extreme poacher problems and law enforcement would have to treat every shot heard or reported as a possible game violation of native animals.
The park has done a lousy job of controlling the hog population, and needs to work with surrounding state and federal wildlife managers to eradicate them. That doesn't mean I want someone going down a trail shooting them.
I'm glad you posted what you did. I wish they'd get rid of them, but that's easier said than done.
colonel r
08-22-2011, 18:30
Yes, it was stupid to have the firearm unavailable and the caliber was too small as well. I stand convicted but both have been fixed. I was more concerned of the two legged predators than the four legged kind.
I hung my pack in the garage after a hike one day and left a snickers wrapper in the belt mesh pocket. As it turned out the mice incisions fit perfectly for my IWB carry rig. However, I have since bought a sewing machine an have made custom holsters for several of the pistols I might want to carry. They are concealed and instantly available.
You are thousands of times more likely to be bitten by a venomous snake than attacked by a pig.
WingedMonkey
08-22-2011, 19:59
You are thousands of times more likely to be bitten by a venomous snake than attacked by a pig.
You forgot...pigs eat snakes.
Lost Iowan
08-22-2011, 20:21
To the OP, I understand your dilemma, and am glad to know that you were able to get some feedback directly from the top. Just to expand on the issue a bit. I live not far from the GSMNP and also the Cherokee NF. Just in the last week alone I know of 5 hogs that were killed around the mountains, 2 of which were pregnant. The sows had both charged the people, who were, in fact, out hunting them. The hogs have become more widespread lately it seems, and I have heard of more farmers and friends who enjoy the outdoors having encounters with them. So, to end quickly, be careful around these feral hogs. As someone said, I would rather have a bear after me than a feral hog.
In Other Words: You would be charged and tried in court, and after spending 10 to 15 thousand bucks on a legal team, you might, maybe, get out of it.
Where the heck is the "like" button?
vamelungeon
08-22-2011, 22:11
When I was growing up we killed many a hog with a .22 head shot. Mostly those hogs had their face buried in a bucket of slop when they were shot and our shot placement was pretty precise. Shooting a charging hog while hiking...I probably would still aim at the head and fire with my little pocket pistol and hope I hit an eye or the brain. Still, that would be better than standing there doing nothing. I carry my tiny pistol mainly for humans anyway. I'd rather face a hog with a .308 or similar rifle cartridge.
yotarunner77
08-23-2011, 00:59
I live in pa and luckily we only have a little problem with the critters...for now....but I agree that they are a huge problem that I am afraid can not be stopped untill they run out of food and dye off. But by that point they would have eaten the whole continent clean of anything the grows. I say protect yourself by any means necessary...I cary the Judge with me on all my hikes...well I guess I cary it everywhere I go....but anyway even the judge would have a hard time stoping a hog with its 410 buck shot rounds and long 45s. The best bet is to drop the pack, climb a tree and wait them out I guess.
You forgot...pigs eat snakes.
I'm glad you're still here. :)
colonel r
08-23-2011, 07:54
The hogs are such a persistent problem in the rest of the state (Tennessee) out side of the park there is an open season on them. I believe it went into effect this year. Landowners are allow to bring 10 of their best friends on the land to hunt. It is worded funny to keep people from importing more of them and set up a hunting camp.
colonel r
08-23-2011, 09:45
Here is how I solved the accessibility issue.
First pic is the mice damage going after a candy wrapper.
Second my normal IWB method. worked great, but no retention and exposed. I hiked this way once and put my scarf on the pistol as I passed people.
The last three are of the holster I made. The holster slides over the hip belt with two loops and I attach the top right corner to the pack frame so it will not slide off the hip belt.
I think I will make another to attach a can of bear spray, just for more options.
This is one of the pitfalls of owning a sewing machine. I'll try anything once. I have made 5 or 6 for different calibers and using different materials. I think this holster minus pistol weights about 3 ozs. I would not use the lattice seen in one of the pics again. It is much to hard to sew; however, it prevents the pistol silhouette from showing thru.
4eyedbuzzard
08-23-2011, 09:55
Looks a lot like a safepacker (http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=catalog&parent=171&pg=1)
yotarunner77
08-23-2011, 11:10
Here is how I solved the accessibility issue. First pic is the mice damage going after a candy wrapper.Second my normal IWB method. worked great, but no retention and exposed. I hiked this way once and put my scarf on the pistol as I passed people.The last three are of the holster I made. The holster slides over the hip belt with two loops and I attach the top right corner to the pack frame so it will not slide off the hip belt.I think I will make another to attach a can of bear spray, just for more options.This is one of the pitfalls of owning a sewing machine. I'll try anything once. I have made 5 or 6 for different calibers and using different materials. I think this holster minus pistol weights about 3 ozs. I would not use the lattice seen in one of the pics again. It is much to hard to sew; however, it prevents the pistol silhouette from showing thru.This is what I use, I use it to keep all my daily essentials and to keep the Judge. It is very comfortable and if for any reason you would have to drop your pack and run it is still with you and has everything you need to survive for a day or two.
WingedMonkey
08-23-2011, 11:17
The hogs are such a persistent problem in the rest of the state (Tennessee) out side of the park there is an open season on them. I believe it went into effect this year. Landowners are allow to bring 10 of their best friends on the land to hunt. It is worded funny to keep people from importing more of them and set up a hunting camp.
In the past Florida has had an ass-backwards way of hog management. State parks paid to have them trapped and removed, the trappers would take them to state wildlife management hunting areas (also where a lot of our trails are) or private hunting lands.
There were quotas and limits on the amount that could be harvested, they would over populate and move back into state parks and private property. This was always supported by hunters and private hunt land owners.
The population explosion finally got to much when they started tearing up the gated communities and nice golf courses. Hunters finally saw the destruction they were doing to deer and wild turkey habitat (including eating turkey eggs). Ranchers and tree farms that use to welcome the extra income have become overwhelmed and want them gone.
So finally..... new hunting regulations. During season on management lands, no bag or size limit. On private property, no limits year round..and to stop the shoot them in a barrel hunt camps for tourists... no transportation of live hogs.
Waiting to see if it puts a dent in the population.
colonel r
08-23-2011, 11:25
Looks a lot like a safepacker (http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=catalog&parent=171&pg=1)
Never said it was an original idea. My son has a Safepacker and really likes it.. But mine is smaller, lighter, and I made it for less than $2. It can be accessed a bit faster as well.
Plodderman
08-23-2011, 16:44
Becoming more of a problem and they sure do a lot of damage. I have hiked the Smokies but did not see any, heard them, and saw the effects of them but never came across one.
Just like bears on the East Coast (notably New Jersey), the hog population will continue to grow until confrontation become unavoidable. To point back to the number of incidents over the last twenty years and suggest there isn't a problem is like steering the ship by watching the wake.
gollwoods
08-23-2011, 17:55
there might not be millions of hikers but there easily could be millions of miles hiked each year, without a hiker being violated by a hog, the hogs are timid and harmless. i don't mind guns generally but really don't see the use in toting one around in the pack. unless you might sleep with it in your tent or something.
HeartFire
08-23-2011, 19:19
I
It does raise an interesting question of how many hikers the park really sees. But I don't feel like first getting into a discussion of how to define a hiker.
There is no way of knowing this information - I day hike in the GSMNP a lot, There are no logs to register in, so no way of tracking numbers. I have seen the hogs on many occasions, they are pretty shy of people, they know they are hunted (by the rangers) so they stay clear of people.
Trailbender
08-24-2011, 00:37
This is what I use, I use it to keep all my daily essentials and to keep the Judge. It is very comfortable and if for any reason you would have to drop your pack and run it is still with you and has everything you need to survive for a day or two.
A Glock is a far better handgun for many reasons. I have been shooting for years, and though the Judge is better than nothing, I have found it to be more of a novelty than anything else.
colonel r
08-24-2011, 10:10
I don't want to get into caliber wars but I went with the Corbon DPX. I use 40SW and these are 145gn solid copper HP. In doing the research I found an occasion of a thru and thru shoulder to shoulder shot with this same bullet on a hog hunt in TX. The hog weighed 125 lbs. The sold copper will not disintegrate but retain mass. After all that, my uncle used to make sausage and kill the hogs( >400lbs) with a 22LR behind the ear. it all comes down to shot placement.
After my conversation with the Chief Ranger, I am going to add some pepper spray as an alternative. Although the pepper spray might simply become the marinade for the cookout.
I do not use Corbon's for everyday carry. The penetration is way too much to be used anywhere else.
Col R
There is no way of knowing [how many people hike in GSMNP].
I was interested primarily in knowing how many hikers use the A.T. annually and how many through hikers in particular. The number of through hikers could be determined by counting the number of permits issued and the other number could be estimated. Transportation managers routinely track the number of vehicles using roadways...
National parks have access to counter units that involve a small box and a reflector.
Of course, a study needs to be written to study the number of users. Seriously.
WingedMonkey
08-24-2011, 11:44
The hog weighed 125 lbs.
I thought you were talking about a HOG, not a baby. That's catching size, not big enough to chase you.
:p
colonel r
08-24-2011, 12:01
I thought you were talking about a HOG, not a baby. That's catching size, not big enough to chase you.
:p You can hike with me any time and you can do the catching. I can lighten my pack considerably.
Mr. Toad
08-25-2011, 22:04
I have been shooting hogs for a number of years in Florida. As a general comment, I would suggest that unless you are a very experienced hunter and a darn good shot forget about any pistol, regardless of caliber. Otherwise, chances are very slim that you would do anything except irritate the hog. I have killed several, but I would not carry a pistol. A lot of weight, and a greatly increased chance of misadventure during the trip.
colonel r
08-26-2011, 09:19
I cannot disagree with anything you said. The option of a long gun in the park is out of the question and would be subject to immediate arrest. I suspect that the distance to the target has got to be danger close for you to have a good legal defense anyway. Avoidance is the best but you do the best you can with what you have.
I prefer PGC's policy since they aren't wildlife, they're just feral hogs. Up here, our wildlife biologists expend a couple of rounds and resume their responsibilities related to managing wildlife.
^^
I think they should pay bounties on the damn things. And on deer in some places too.
WingedMonkey
08-26-2011, 12:03
I cannot disagree with anything you said. The option of a long gun in the park is out of the question and would be subject to immediate arrest. I suspect that the distance to the target has got to be danger close for you to have a good legal defense anyway. Avoidance is the best but you do the best you can with what you have.
Thanks you for not turning this into a "I"m gonna carry any damn gun I want" thread. Nice to see some logic in the discussion.
XCskiNYC
08-27-2011, 01:13
Are you oinking at me?