Ice Ax, Crampons, or both?

[map man]

I could use some advice from those who like to mix a little scrambling to the tops of mountains with their hiking. I recently hiked in the Wind River Range in Wyoming and tried my hand(s) at clambering to the top of a couple mountains -- my first class two route to the top of East Temple Peak and four days later my first class three scramble to the top of Fremont Peak. I enjoyed the heck out of it! I was frustrated, though, in my hopes of getting to the top of Wind River Peak by an unconventional west route and getting up to Bonney Pass a few days later by steep seasonal snow fields. I didn't have the experience or the equipment to be going up, down or across snow fields where one slip meant an accelerating slide down hundreds of feet with nothing to greet me at the bottom but rocks.

I've done some reading in some mountaineering books since I got back and am convinced I need a general-purpose mountaineering ice ax and some practice using it for such things as self arrest before I try to tackle steep snow fields. But what about crampons? I should make clear that I have no intention of tackling crevasse-laced glaciers or steep ice in my non-technical mountaineering (class three routes are as tough as I want to do right now). But would crampons still prove essential? And if I decide to get crampons just how rigid would my footwear need to be? Do I need full-blown boots? Can crampons be clamped onto any kind of trail runners?

My intention is to mix a little mountaineering with traditional hiking, so I'm not wild about the idea of having to pack both a full set of trail essentials (and nothing heavier than trail runners is a hiking essentail to me) and mountain scrambling essentials if that includes ice ax, crampons, bag for the crampons, boots especially for crampons, and helmet.

[SweetAss03]

I own and use both but sometimes all you really need are something like YakTraks or similar product.Your confidence on ice and snow is much greater when you have crampons on and off you need crampons then you probably need an axe.

[garlic08]

Hi, Mapman;

I owned crampons for many years, climbed all the 14ers in Colorado, and only only used the crampons once. And that one time scared the heck out of me. I learned, instead, to wait for the sun to hit the slope, kick steps, and use the ice axe for belay. I never had to self-arrest, but I practiced a lot. After I switched to trail runners, I sold the crampons and stayed off the slopes I wasn't comfortable climbing in the running shoes. In winter I used a slightly heavier, stiffer trail shoe to break through a heavier crust. So I would say no, crampons are not essential for the type of hiking you're describing. Some climbers have been injured by improper crampon use, too--points driven into feet, ankles broken while arresting, etc.

An ice axe is good to have, and it makes the world's best latrine tool. Mine weighs less than seven ounces. There are plenty of lightweight models.

Glad to hear you got bit by the bug in the Winds. Great place. Be careful up there.

[Two Tents]

I would say both. If I had to choose one, I would say crampons. If I had to have them for trail runners then it would be Kahtoola micro spikes. With the Kahtoola micro spikes if you needed full crampons you'd prob be glad to have the ice ax as well. So I guess the order would be-Kahtoola micro spikes then ice ax, then full crampons with boots and ice ax.

[Ironbelly]

If tackling steep snow/icy slopes then an ice axe is a must, it really can be a life saver, and can make ascents much easier as well. I would ALWAYS carry kahtoola micropsikes, and i highly recommend them over yaktraks. Personally, i think yaktraks are trash, they break very easily. where as my microspikes can really take some abuse. My grandfather even had a pair of yaktraks break using them to take walks around the block in winter if that gives you any insight to their durability. Full on crampons usually are not needed unless you are tackling some very serious terrain in bad conditions. Microspikes take zero experience to use effectively, an ice axe takes some basic knowledge of proper methods, and crampons take alot of experience to get comfortable and proficient with their use to avoid the possibility of accidental injury.

+1 on an ice axe being the best latrine tool in the world! haha

[map man]

Thanks, folks, for the advice. I will get myself an ice ax and practice using it before my next bout of mountaineering. I haven't found one on the internet that weighs 7 ounces yet, Garlic, but I've seen an 11 ouncer that looks like it would do the job. If that does not prove to be enough I will think about crampons and the tip about looking at Kahtoola products looks like a good one. They have the microspikes and also something that looks closer to traditional crampons but without the two front spikes, and both of those two products are advertised to not need anything heftier than trail runners for footware, which is handy for me.

I'm looking at future hiking trips which could also include some mountain scrambling and some mountain ranges that look promising (nice network of trails and some non-technical mountain routes) are the Elk and Sawatch ranges in Colorado and the Uintas in Utah.

[Chubbs4U]

Let me add a few questions to this if I may. I have never done any climbing but recently did the Falls Trail in PA and it was great. I would love to do this trail in the winter and have no idea what it would entail. I assume I would need some crampons but not sure about and ice axe. So any suggestions or pointers for these? Also anything else I need to know. Not sure how much climbing there would be doing this but someone may have some thoughts and suggestions.

[wcgornto]

Kahtoolas

http://www.rei.com/product/774966/kahtoola-microspikes-traction-system

[wcgornto]

Let me add a few questions to this if I may. I have never done any climbing but recently did the Falls Trail in PA and it was great. I would love to do this trail in the winter and have no idea what it would entail. I assume I would need some crampons but not sure about and ice axe. So any suggestions or pointers for these? Also anything else I need to know. Not sure how much climbing there would be doing this but someone may have some thoughts and suggestions.

Do these falls freeze up to where an ice ax and crampons would do any good?

[garlic08]

...I haven't found one on the internet that weighs 7 ounces yet, Garlic, but I've seen an 11 ouncer that looks like it would do the job....

I looked up my Cassin Ghost (weighs 8 oz so I misspoke), and it seems like it's not made any more. But here's a pricier 7 oz axe: http://www.backcountry.com/camp-usa-corsa-ice-axe

(http://www.backcountry.com/camp-usa-corsa-ice-axe)

[nox]

Chubbs, are you speaking of the falls trail at rickets glen? if so, at some point in the fall / winter they will post a sign that says something along the lines of " this trail is closed to all but experienced climbers with crampons, axe, rope and a partner".. i use to have a picture of the sign but can't find it..

[Chubbs4U]

I am. Saw them for the first time and would love to see them when they freeze and the like. Have you done it in the winter?

[nox]

no, we drove up there (3hr drive) only to find it was about a 6 inch slab of ice at the bottom. we made it about 100 feet up and slid back down and drove home. we have been thinking of trying again with the proper equipment. I think you are also supposed to register with the ranger at the campgrounds so they know where to look for you if you don't pick your car up at the end of the day.

[Chubbs4U]

so what do you think you need for this. Do I need climbing lessons, some crampons, ice axe, a friend willing and able? Saw some pictures of it iced up and knew its something I wanted to do. We actually tackled the falls the day the hurricane came through the east coast. As were walking to the falls we had a lot of looks and were asked if we were doing the falls which we replied yes. They were worried about the storm coming and the conditions. We actually made it back to the camp site when the sky opened up. We were 1 of 3 groups of people that stayed. Everyone else left Sunday but we stayed til Monday. Was a great time and didnt see the falls after the storm but hit some others on that were raging.137691377013771

[Snowleopard]

Map Man, for winter hiking/climbing out west you need to understand avalanche danger.
Kahtoola microspikes are great, but not a substitute for crampons. In the northeast, you can usually get by with microspikes and snowshoes, but there are times when you have to have the sense to turn back if you don't have real crampons. Most of the time in the northeast you don't need an iceaxe, but when you do you really really need it (or be ready to turn back). Crampons and iceaxe are sharp and dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

The most important thing for winter in the mountains is knowledge. It is best to take courses, but if you have knowledgeable friends maybe they can teach you. In the east, AMC and the Adirondack Mountain club (adk.org) offer courses.

For waterfall ice, you need specialized equipment ice equipment and training in ice climbing. Ice climbing without knowing what you're doing is a quick way to die.

I've taken a few courses, not enough to know what I'm doing, but enough to understand what I don't know.

[map man]

Snowleopard, the words of caution are appreciated. I only plan to tackle routes as difficult as class-3 and the only time of year I plan to be in the western mountains is during prime hiking times -- mid-summer to early fall. And I'm only thinking about how to deal with seasonal snow fields for now. And I did have the sense to turn back a month ago when I was in the Wind River Range and encountered snow fields too steep for my level of inexperience (and lack of equipment).