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ncmtns
02-21-2005, 22:17
I know the rules say stay on the trail, but doesnt your curiosity get the best of you when you wonder what all those hollers and mountains are hiding in that park?

orangebug
02-21-2005, 22:23
It is a truly beautiful park, but also one full of dangers. It is possible to get into trouble from weather, critters and accidents - while staying on the trail. Going off trail and bushwhacking puts you at risk, and possibly an SAR team at risk.

If you choose to bushwhack and explore the back coves, don't go alone, please.

SGT Rock
02-21-2005, 22:32
As I understand it, you can get an off trail permit, but you need a plan before you get permission. I have thought about looking into this myself.

Frosty
02-21-2005, 22:33
There is a rule that you have to stay on the trails? Are you serious?

SGT Rock
02-21-2005, 22:51
There is a rule that you have to stay on the trails? Are you serious?

From the park regulations:

Camping in the backcountry is permitted only at established backcountry sites, except as authorized by a cross-country permit. Cross-country permits may not be self-issued and must be approved by a Ranger Activities employee or VIP. Cross-country camping (at other than designated sites) is permitted under the following conditions:

a. The maximum party size is four persons. The use of horses or other stock is prohibited.

b. The campsite must be at least one-half mile from any designated trail, one mile from any designated road and 100 feet from the nearest surface water.

c. Camping in spruce-fir, beech gaps or on grassy or heath balds is prohibited.

d. The duration of stay at each location cannot exceed one night and the same location cannot be used a second time on the same trip.

e. Wood fires are prohibited.

f. Campers are required to obliterate all traces of human presence upon leaving a cross-country camp.

g. Camping locations for each night should be as closely pinpointed as possible using natural landmarks or map coordinates, and trips are expected to follow the designated itinerary as closely as possible.

Cross-country hiking is a special use and requires special equipment, training and/or experience. These regulations are an attempt to permit this special use, while minimizing the potential impact on natural resources.

(b)(3) Camping within 100 feet of a flowing stream, river or body of water is permitted only at designated front and backcountry campsites.

Camping within 100 ft. of water normally increases erosion and sanitation problems in water sources.

The total regulations can be found here: http://www.nps.gov/grsm/gsmsite/compendium99.html#_Toc447354551

including the reg about thru-hikers and permits:

Reservations are required because of the high demand for the limited space available.

The use of tents at shelters is prohibited except by persons qualifying as thru-hikers on the Appalachian Trail (by definition an Appalachian thru-hiker is a backpacker who is using the Appalachian Trail exclusively while in the Park and whose trip begins and ends a minimum of fifty miles outside the Park). Thru-hikers may pitch tents outside shelters only when all bunks are otherwise occupied.

It is unrealistic to expect thru-hikers to obtain advance reservations when they do not know when they will be entering the Park.

Note: A Compendium of Orders for the Appalachian National Scenic Trail sets forth additional restrictions which apply to specific sections of the A.T. outside Great Smoky Mountains National Park. For information, contact the Appalachian National Scenic Trail office in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia.

flyfisher
02-21-2005, 22:58
All that Sgt Rock quoted is not only true, it is enforced by a number of people in the park. This includes rangers, pig hunters, and ATC ridge runners.

I shake my head at these regulations, especially when remembering the wonderful AT trailway north and south of the Smokey Mountains which has no stringent regulation. What's to boot, the trail is prettier, better maintained, and it is also less crowded.

Frosty
02-21-2005, 23:00
Oh, okay. Camping. Mysery solved.

I knew that camping was only allowed at designated campsites. When the poster said you had to stay on the trails and not explore the backcountry, I thought he meant that one had to stay on (i.e., not set foot off) the trails. Not that many people want to bushwhack, but it seemed odd that there would be a rule about it.

SGT Rock
02-21-2005, 23:06
Well I figure that the rule was probably put there for a reason, but I think I can demonstrate a reasonable proficciency in land navigation and LNT camping. I hear tell there are some old roads and train track beds out there that go to some cool places but aren't on a map. I also assume that like anything, I should start small and build on it in order to get the Rangers to trust my abilities before I try planning long multi day trips in the back country. I figure if I get that sort of trust, maybe I can take some friends out there.

Then again, maybe I'll get a ranger job when I retire and bust y'alls balls over the regs :D

Capt Chaos
02-21-2005, 23:17
I do know of several routes throughout the park that people take quite often that are considered of trail. One being right of the A.T. on Thunderhead leading you through gullies and an old railroad bed and others throughout the Abram's Creek area where old roads lead you weaving all throughout the lowland area. If you get a hold of some old maps, you can have a lot of fun. Rock is right on the regulations. But if you can show rangers your experience level, then you should be fine. I really want to do some of this bushwacking stuff.

ncmtns
02-22-2005, 16:48
Maybe I need to pal up with an old indian in Cherokee who most likely has some good info.

The Weasel
02-22-2005, 18:01
Bushwhacking much off the AT can be a little risky, and not from blisters. Close to the Trail in a lot of NC and GA are marijuana plantations - it is NC's largest cash crop, now - which are often patrolled by people who are not nice and have big guns. That's another reason to ask a ranger about where it's safe to go.

The Weasel

Nightwalker
02-22-2005, 18:24
Then again, maybe I'll get a ranger job when I retire and bust y'alls balls over the regs :D
Ahh, you ain't never gonna retire. You'll get to twenty, and then thirty will start looking good to you. First Sergeant's nice and all but Command Sergeant Major has a ring all its own, doesn't it?

Plus, why retire on half pay when you can retire on full?

:jump

Stuart
02-22-2005, 18:56
There is an interesting story in the book LOST written by a GSMNP ranger on a resuce involving 2 young men probably had no business experience-wise going off trail. They jumped off the AT to avoid Rocky Top trying to hook up with Hazel Creek Trail. Another in the book about a young lady with experince off trail in the winter whom got into a rough spot. Reference to an old silver mine or something thereabouts is made. That would be neat to come across, but for me I'll stick to the 900 miles of trail in the park. They alone will take me within the park sufficiently, but I do wonder with no trails coming down the north side between the Boulevard and that long stretch to around Tricorner I have wondered.

veteran
02-22-2005, 19:28
Try these sites:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/map_item.pl?data=/home/www/data/gmd//gmd390m/g3902m/g3902gm/gnp00001/ns000001.sid&style=npmap&itemLink=r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3902gm+gnp00001))&title=Proposed%20Great%20Smoky%20Mountains%20Natio nal%20Park.+-+Image%201

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=npmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd390m/g3902m/g3902gm/gnp00001/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3902gm+gnp00001))&title2=Proposed%20Great%20Smoky%20Mountains%20Nati onal%20Park.&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/nphtml/gsmhome.html

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~dunigan/gsmnp/mrsid.php

ncmtns
02-22-2005, 19:44
Alot of good stuff there, thanx alot! Rumor has it the 'Little People" still abide deep in the untouched recluses of these hollers. Maybe I will get lucky...

zephyr1034
02-22-2005, 21:40
[QUOTE=Capt Chaos]I do know of several routes throughout the park that people take quite often that are considered of trail.

================================================== ===========

Some others that I've heard about over the years:

1. From the Sugarland Mountain Trail to the Chimney Tops.
2. From the upper campsite on Porter's Creek to the AT at Dry Sluice Gap.
3. From the Gregory Bald Trail at the site of an old poplar tree (destroyed by lightning in 1974) to Ekanalee (sp?) Gap.
4. From Ramsey Cascades to the AT on Mt. Guyot.

I'm not recommending that anyone hike any of these, and #2 is reported to be especially dangerous. But I've read about all of them. They are sometimes called "manways."

Tom

Jack Tarlin
02-22-2005, 21:47
People should be aware that they take a VERY dim view of illegal camping in the Park, and if one elects to stealth or to stay at unofficial sites, you risk fine, arrest, and/or expulsion from the Park.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm merely saying that one shouldn't complain if one gets in serious trouble while doing so.

SGT Rock
02-23-2005, 20:51
People should be aware that they take a VERY dim view of illegal camping in the Park, and if one elects to stealth or to stay at unofficial sites, you risk fine, arrest, and/or expulsion from the Park.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm merely saying that one shouldn't complain if one gets in serious trouble while doing so.

I think that is why I would try to get a real cross country permit if I were going to do it.

Deerleg
02-28-2005, 20:59
I know the rules say stay on the trail, but doesnt your curiosity get the best of you when you wonder what all those hollers and mountains are hiding in that park?
If you’re confident in your navigation skills is there any problem spending the day hiking that hollow that is off the trail? I live close to an area called the Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area. No overnight camping anywhere in the park, but a great place to hike “off trail”. Some of my best hikes have been in areas that there are no trails….just my desire to see what’s over the next ridge…usually lots of deer, turkey and interesting old homesteads long abandon and covered again by the forest, glades of daffodils probably planted a hundred years ago and now seen only by a few that venture off trail. I hope there aren’t any regulations against wondering the hills in our national parks and recreation areas.

tlbj6142
02-28-2005, 21:17
4. From Ramsey Cascades to the AT on Mt. Guyot.Now that's one I'd be interested in. I've always wanted to visit Ramsey Cascades on a trip, but as its on a 5mile "dead-end" route, I never could find a means to squeeze it in. I've often wondered why its not connected to the rest of the nearby trails.

sourwood
02-28-2005, 22:43
In the book "Hiking Trails of the Great Smoky Mountains" there is a description of the "trail" above Ramsay Cascade to the AT. It basically follows the stream bed or hollow up to the AT. Sounds like there is some dense rhodo to navigate through, but it also sounds like the stream has some beautiful falls and pools above the Cascades. I have done the 5 mile out and back hike. It is an easy hike, some on old roads and there is usually a crowd. However, it is worth it to see the trees along the trail. There are huge black cherries, chestnut oaks, silverbell, and tulip poplars. The Cascades are pretty spectacular also.

Julie

BeaverTrapper
03-01-2005, 02:12
Sounds like there is some dense rhodo to navigate through, but it also sounds like the stream has some beautiful falls and pools above the CascadesVery dense stuff up there. Never ran into another person. It gets cold up there, even in summer. I stuck mainly in the creekbed itself. Slippery stuff. Wouldn't want to do it in winter, thats for sure. It kinda gave me a brief glimpse into what this country must have been like a long, long time ago. I just got the feeling that I was in a place where no man had left his mark before. Kind of serene, but kind of disconcerting at the same time. I never made it all the way to the AT. I sorta stopped at one of the pools and just couldn't find a reason to keep moving. At places it was hand over hand climbing, not hiking.

Terrible, ugly place. Not worth the walk. :D

Bumpman
03-01-2005, 16:06
Now that's one I'd be interested in. I've always wanted to visit Ramsey Cascades on a trip, but as its on a 5mile "dead-end" route, I never could find a means to squeeze it in. I've often wondered why its not connected to the rest of the nearby trails.There is a trail up to the AT from what I've read, but I've never tried it. If you are ever looking for a great day hike in the Smokys I would recommend Ramsay Cascades. It's about an 8 mile round trip and the falls are well worth it.

silvereagle
07-30-2005, 17:39
I have hiked 2 of the "manways" mentioned here. The one from Porters Creek to the A/T is extrememly dangerous, It was nuts to attempt it. I would recommend use of safety gear if you plan on doing it. You will be on your hands and knees most of the way, through thick brush, snakes, bugs, mud, and rocks. Steep rocks. Attempt in the winter, when the risk of running across a snake is minimal. However, you run the risk of foul weather. Take the good with the bad. It's your choice. The hike from Ramsay Cascades to the A/T (Mt Guyot) isn't nearly as bad, with a great special reward along the way (you have to see it to believe it), lots of brush, and the other forementioned critters. Short in length though. Seriously, if you do the Porter Creek manway, follow ALL the sane safety precautions first.

HikerHobo
07-30-2005, 21:01
Google has a great map system that uses satellite images merged with conventional maps. Go to http://earth.google.com/ and download the google earth program. You can then go to search "Great Smoky Mountain National Park" and see satellite images of the park and areas that you are considering exploring... very impressive technology, available today.

samfsmith
08-01-2005, 08:38
Way back in 1991 I explored the Hazel Creek area pretty extensively, camping at the designated campsites along Hazel Creek, Bone Valley, and Eagle Creek. I looked up the old cabin site where Horace Kephart first stayed when he came to the Smokys, at the old copper mine on the little fork of the Sugar Fork. There are at least three mines still there, as well as the remains of two steam engines. Not locomotives, but stationary engines used to turn winches.

One of the engines I found was unknown to the park service, or at least forgotten. I told them about it and led a group of them in to look at it. As far as I know it's still sitting there, hidden in the rhododendron west of Bone Valley. The boiler was about eight feet tall, the engine a small five horsepower Orr and Sembower from the 1910s. There was a newspaper article in my local paper, and I've got some nice old pictures.

To get back on topic, I never had special permission to explore. I always had camping permits. When I contacted them with my "find" they didn't give me a hassle at all, but were interested in what I had found. Of course this all happened 15 years ago.

In a place like Hazel Creek, once home to a couple of thousand people, there are old roads and trails everywhere. Stay in a designated campsite and explore. Start simple so you don't become a problem for rescue personnel and until you get confident with map and compass. Anyway that's my advice - for what it's worth.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-01-2005, 08:54
I did a lot of cross-country bushwacking in the GSMNP in my younger days. The rangers weren't quite as vigilant about searching out those camping off the trail back then. Today, they tend to show up if you build a fire, but rarely find those who are truly stealth and at least a mile off a trail.



That bing said - remember this park has some of the most treacherous terrain in the SE US. Cross-country hiking in such terrain should only be attempted by those with expert skills in all aspects of backcountry survival and navigation and who are physically fit enough to endure the rigors that will be faced. I'd add a fair amount of common sense to the list of must haves before hiking off-trail.

sliderule
08-01-2005, 09:21
All that Sgt Rock quoted is not only true, it is enforced by a number of people in the park. This includes rangers, pig hunters, and ATC ridge runners.

Interestingly, only NPS Park Rangers with law enforcement authority can "enforce" the regulations. The rest, including interpretive rangers, management rangers, boar hunters, ridge runners and caretakers, can "educate" but do not have enforcement authority.

robin31
08-01-2005, 18:11
Ud Be Surpised On What One Wud Find Upem Hallors...

tombone
08-02-2005, 02:38
over the years i've come to some conclusions about this subject. bushwacking is hard work, and adding elevation change makes it even tougher. yes, there are some old trails, roads, traces and logging grades. some have remained clear but all have enjoyed the regrowth of 80+ years since the park was established. lately we've suffered through blights that have knocked down firs, spruces, pines and most recently, hemlocks. this has really added to the difficulty of offtrail travel. when these trees come down, you climb over and under them and whatever else they have brought down. and you combat whatever grows in the new window in the forest. often it is something with briars, and is thick. great place for critters, especially nests of stinging insects. you won't see the nest until they've hit you, often more than once. and you can't just run from them. they take comfort and refuge in places where you can't see your feet and where you have to push the vegetation away from your face. these nests can hang from any kind of branch or be concealed in trees, between rocks or in a hole in the ground. add some moisture or go below freezing and now you've got slippery surfaces of all angles. if you bruise easily or tend to break bones or even twist appendages, don't go. help will be hard to come by-it will take a long time to reach you, and the attitude has shifted toward placing the responsibility on the hiker, especially if there is evidence of stupidity, substance abuse, etc. translate: you could be financially liable for a rescue operation. i have found that it is much easier to carry only the gear that i need to do offtrail DAYhikes with a small, frameless pack rather than toting everything i need to spend the night in the woods, especially with offtrail camping restrictions as they are. and it is nice to come out of the woods after a long day-beaten up, scratched everywhere and sometimes bruised, tired, hungry and sore-to the comforts that we enjoy in civilization. that being said, there are some great places offtrail in gsmnp and i've got many more on the list, and a wonderful network of fellow bushwackers who continue to explore the farthest reaches. study maps of differing scales, compare the old maps to the new ones, read the histories of the coves and intermountain travel-these things create offtrail success. start with small treks so that you build confidence and endurance. i continue to be surprised at the variety of flora in gsmnp-sometimes rhodo and/or laurel thickets extend for miles while in other similar places the forest is wide open. you can't predict what grows in a certain drainage, hollow or ridgeline based on compass direction, location in the park, proximity to a 'known' area or elevation. nor can you predict how rocky an area might be. i've walked offtrail with concrete expectations based on prior trips, word of mouth, recollections, maps, and what i believe to be common sense, only to have those expectations dashed by the reality of a really beautiful and delightfully varied environment. i've made some mistakes, been lucky on numerous occasions and have recklessly endangered myself and others. i also am grateful that as the body ages, the mind is able to replace some of the above with the wisdom that comes from surviving decades of offtrail experiences while not becoming burned out on it due to injury or misfortune. i'm also very reluctant to suggest routes or destinations because everyone has unique tolerances and expectations. you might go through several offtrail companions before you find someone who has a compatible demeanor, rate of travel, and goals. i've broken the 'don't go alone' rule often, and might regret that sooner rather than later. the reality is that it is hard to find someone who is available and willing to do the things that are required to get to the destinations that might be nothing more than an elevation 'x' on a quad map or an interesting place name that is several miles from a road or trail.

happy off trails!

sarnott
09-09-2006, 11:29
I have been backpacking off the trail before in Red River Gorge, this place is in the hills of eastern kentucky. We camped next to a huge rock wall.

TIDE-HSV
09-10-2006, 09:04
of permitted off-trail hikes in the Abrams Creek area. I've also explored above Ramsay Cascades, but not all the way up. The worst off-trail was missing the Porter Flat Manway to the left and almost not surving the scree slopes. I finally found out what Kephart was talking about with walking on rhododendron. I always thought he meant the tops, but, when it's growing straight downhill, the trunks are almost horizontal and you can walk on them. I used that technique to get to the ridge of Porter Mtn, where there's a narrow pig trail leading south to the AT. My main fear then was that the spur ridge would take one of those 200' up swoops to get to the main ridge, but, thankfully, I could just step down about 4" to the AT. I turned right and ran into my erstwhile hiking partner, who had gone up the correct way. He looked like he'd seen a ghost and managed to stammer out "What are you doing here." He told me later that what he thought was that, if I were there, then he was in the wrong place (he was heading for Peck's Corner). I managed to talk him in to taking the manway back down to Porter's Flat with me and that was also an interesting trip...

SawnieRobertson
09-10-2006, 10:36
Do y'all have any idea how many humans have disappeared in Smoky? I mean, totally disappeared forever.--Kinnickiinic

SGT Rock
09-10-2006, 11:27
Nope, but someday I aspire to be one of them