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wacocelt
02-24-2005, 17:38
Hydro, who is hiking NoBo this year but took some time off to recouperate from giardia like symptoms, recieved an email from someone telling her "I hope you're not still calling yourself a Thru-Hiker since you've taken so much time off the trail."

I actually became sick to my stomach when I heard this. Are people so intent upon causing each other misery and woe that they feel the need to contact a complete stranger and piss in thier proverbial Wheaties?

I just hope folks can realize that the people you'll meet on the AT and those who skulk in the shadows of the internet AT are very different critters.

Mags
02-24-2005, 17:51
I just hope folks can realize that the people you'll meet on the AT and those who skulk in the shadows of the internet AT are very different critters.


Ain't that the truth!

For those new to this community: Don't let what you see on the Internet effect your AT experience. The Internet is a helpful tool for planning on the AT and in staying in touch with the members of the hiking community; but it ain't the AT.

Personally, I think anyone who sends an e-mail out of the blue like that is probably a jackass. :)

Frosty
02-24-2005, 17:54
Hydro, who is hiking NoBo this year but took some time off to recouperate from giardia like symptoms, recieved an email from someone telling her "I hope you're not still calling yourself a Thru-Hiker since you've taken so much time off the trail."

I actually became sick to my stomach when I heard this. Are people so intent upon causing each other misery and woe that they feel the need to contact a complete stranger and piss in thier proverbial Wheaties?

I just hope folks can realize that the people you'll meet on the AT and those who skulk in the shadows of the internet AT are very different critters.Some may be on the trail, too. I remember that someone saw a moose while being shuttled to a trailhead from a hostel. Another thruhiker told her she "couldn't say she saw a moose on her thruhike" because she wasn't actually on the AT at the time.

There is a lot more of it on the internet, though, as you say. I think perhaps it is because the internet is so impersonal and we forget that we are actually talking with people. I met one frequent poster in person. I was a bitapprehensive based on his posts. In person, he was just a normal human being and we had a good talk. A week later on-line he flamed me because I had an opinion he didn't hold.

I've posted some things I wish I hadn't. At times all of us forget there are real-live people behind the userIDs, but I guess some never put the two together.

The thing to do is forget it because it isn't personal. It's just the way some people are, and they aren't going to change.

MOWGLI
02-24-2005, 17:56
Personally, I think anyone who sends an e-mail out of the blue like that is probably a jackass. :)

I agree, but would change the word probably to read - definitely.

rickb
02-24-2005, 18:11
Wacocelt--

FYI, Looks like someone copied you post over at Trailforums.com, but under a different name.

Taking a look at Hydro's guestbook on Trailjournals, it looks like 100% of the comments were positive, as they should be! It takes guts to get back on the Trail and that hiker deserves everyone's support. From what I see, the internet folks are giving it in spades.

In her journal she commented that a couple people had asked here about whether or not she would start again at Springer to be "Pure". Is that what you are talking about?

I'm not suggesting that there aren't idiots out there, but what you are describing seems so over the top, it does make me wonder.

Rick B

wacocelt
02-24-2005, 18:19
No Rick, my real name is Christopher, I posted it there also. She recieved an actual email from some knucklehead who just couldn't keep thier $.02 to themselves.

It's this type of pomp and circumstance that has made me decide that I really DON'T want to hike the entire AT in one year. If walking every inch of the AT puts me in company with snobbish people who make remarks like that then I'm outta the GaMe. I wouldn't cross the street for a 2,000 miler certificate now.

halibut15
02-24-2005, 18:29
IMO, if I was thru-hiking (which I plan to do eventually) and missed, say, 2 or 3 miles of the AT for blue-blazing or some other unforseen reason, I'm not going to have any less of an experience than a hiker who walks every inch of the trail, even if I miss a vista somewhere. (For instance, I've climbed good old Blood Mtn. in GA 50 billion times. If it's cloudy with no view and I want to take the bypass trail around it to cut out a climb, so what???) The mountains are the mountains, plain and simple, and if I make it from GA to ME somehow, some way by hiking, it's all good to me.


Yeah, yeah, I know...somebody's gonna post it...HYOH.

rickb
02-24-2005, 18:44
Thanks, Wacoclet.

Were I attending the bi-annual ATC meeting this year I would risk looking like an idiot and put forth a motion for the ATC to get out of the 2,000 Miler business. Anyone can bring up anything for a vote on the floor.

It might not pass, but a resolution might get the ATC to move a bit closer to that eventuality.

Your reaction is reason enough.

Rick B

wacocelt
02-24-2005, 18:49
Your reaction is reason enough.

Nah, I'm prone to over-reacting and running of at the mouth. Perhaps that's why it bothers me so much when others do it?

Bleh, two weeks or so and I get to start hiking again with my lovely hiker trash wife and once again be oblivious to all the interweb AT drama which has become so virulent the last few years.

Lion King
02-24-2005, 18:54
It all goes back to control.

I have seen it every single time I have hiked from "ga to Maine"...no matter how I do it, but hiking my own hike the whole time mind you....which means I let the adventure have its way with me, but as in all forms of life, you have miserable arsehose who only think 'their' way is the only way, and if it isnt that way it is wrong.

It saddens and sickens me that every time you will hear these kinds of convos at shelters, at hostels, in reasturants...people who want to judge and cant lose that "You Must Do It Like I do It" mentallity should stay home, or after hiking for a while when they realize they still haven been humbled, they should either go home, or take a vow of silence.

This hike is about the JOURNEY....let me repeat that...ITS ABOUT THE JOURNEY...not racing from GA to ME as fast as you can...its about the small things, the spiritual mental and physical journey that will reach out and touch you in the best of ways...some people are just dicks...thats how it is.

I laugh at them all...I dont care who you are, how you hike, how you got ahead or behind me, or vice versa...when I see you in town, I'll buy you a beer...if you are at the shelter when I get there, I'll hand you a beer that I just lugged up from the town...and I will not give a flyin eff how you got there...but I will be glad to see you.

Purists are great, blueblazers are great, yellowblazers are great, aquablazers are great...hikers who do their thing without judgement on others are great....the Holier then thou can go to hell.

See you out there soon Christo---Im hiking out of Helen in a week give or take, and I can promise you I will take a Blue Blaze, I will yellow blaze, and If I can find me a river running the right direction before Damascus, Ill Aqua blaze...

Moose2001
02-24-2005, 18:57
AMEN LK...great post.

Footslogger
02-24-2005, 19:06
Were I attending the bi-annual ATC meeting this year I would risk looking like an idiot and put forth a motion for the ATC to get out of the 2,000 Miler business.========================================= =====
Rick ...just curious, is all the consternation over the "2000 Miler" business or the "Thru-Hiker" definition ?? Seems like "2000 Miles" is pretty cut and dried point (even though the exact mileage of the AT varies from year to year) but the whole "Thru-Hiker" thing appears to fuel many fires.

'Slogger

SGT Rock
02-24-2005, 19:11
==============================================
Rick ...just curious, is all the consternation over the "2000 Miler" business or the "Thru-Hiker" definition ?? Seems like "2000 Miles" is pretty cut and dried point (even though the exact mileage of the AT varies from year to year) but the whole "Thru-Hiker" thing appears to fuel many fires.

'Slogger

I think it is the 2000 miler personally. Thru-hiker is a loose thing, but since the 2000 miler definition reads the way it does, some feel that if you miss a whiteblaze because you choose to take an alternate route then you no longer can be a 2000 miler, and thusly not a thru-hiker.

chris
02-24-2005, 19:16
Personally, I've tried to switch from using the term "thruhiker" to the term "distance hiker". So, rather than thruhiking, I'm distance hiking. Or, a long distance hiker. Or, better yet, just a hiker. Since what qualifies as a long distance hike is purely subjective, this seems to avoid any notion of purity or puritanical rants.

Oh, and by the way, I've yet to hear a conversation in a shelter go something like, "Oh my God! You're averaging only 12 miles a day? You're not hiking the AT in the right way!"

On the other hand, I've heard, several times, comments like, "Oh my God! You're averaging 20 miles a day? You're not hiking the AT in the right way!"

The point, as many have pointed out, is the journey itself, not the numbers that go along with it. However, if you want to attach a name to yourself (i.e, thruhiker, purist, etc), you'll need to conform to the common usage of the term. That is, if you want a merit badge you'll have to follow the rules. If you just care about the journey, there is no reason for a merit badge.

Footslogger
02-24-2005, 19:19
I think it is the 2000 miler personally. Thru-hiker is a loose thing, but since the 2000 miler definition reads the way it does, some feel that if you miss a whiteblaze because you choose to take an alternate route then you no longer can be a 2000 miler, and thusly not a thru-hiker.=====================================
Thanks Rock ...I can see that now. Just goes to show you though how differently people can look at things. Another way to look at is is that the AT is over 2000 miles long. So ...it is possible to skip a few miles here and there but still get from Springer to Katahdin and have hiked 2000 miles. I guess to some the "2000 Miler" thing has become synonomous with "Thru-Hiking". To me at least ...that is somewhat of a misnomer.

'Slogger

A-Train
02-24-2005, 19:30
Almost every journal on TJ's gets some defamation or stupid comments from misreble people who are jealous that you're out there and they're sitting at a computer. It's the same reason why quarrels get started on this site. People are bored and wishing they were elsewhere. Someone signed my journal and said "Nice journal, why bother" and was too coward to sign their name. I've seen the sweetest, most innocent hikers ripped into for no reason. There are just jerks out there.

As far as purism goes, there are always gonna be some folks who care, and some folks who don't. You gotta just go out there and enjoy urself and worry about urself and no one else. I've witnessed hikers bashing others cuz they are lazy and slow and not into miles, and I've seen the opposite, having laid-back hikers criticizing faster hikers who want to hike the trail in 4 months-neither one can understand why the other doesn;t wanna hike like them. To me, there are tons of different ways to hike the trail. I'm sure I'll eventually get back to the AT. I'd love to participate in a speed hike of 3-4 months and I'd love to take 7 months and stay at every nice campsite. For those who only get one shot, it's about finding a balance and making urself happy. Thats all you can do.

It seems that there is a couple folks over on trailforums who is adament about bringing others down and reveling in what they deem "failure". Just a couple days/weeks ago there were multiple posts about how all the january starters had "quit". Why someone would start a post like that, I can't even imagine, but unfortunately some people have the balls to criticize people who are undertaking a huge adventure, but also doing it in sub-freezing temperatures, and spending most day and night alone. It's not an easy thing and I've got admiration for anyone who goes out and gives it a shot, be it in july or january. Better than sitting at a computer.

SGT Rock
02-24-2005, 19:32
=====================================
Thanks Rock ...I can see that now. Just goes to show you though how differently people can look at things. Another way to look at is is that the AT is over 2000 miles long. So ...it is possible to skip a few miles here and there but still get from Springer to Katahdin and have hiked 2000 miles. I guess to some the "2000 Miler" thing has become synonomous with "Thru-Hiking". To me at least ...that is somewhat of a misnomer.

'Slogger

I agree. There is sort of a general feeling beginning out there that the ATC should get out of the business of recognizing 2,000 milers and stick to trail conservancy. If groups like the ALDHA want to recognize thru-hiker, 2,000 miler status, or whatever, let them do it.

Maybe the Center for Appalachian Trail Studies would want a "No Trail Magic, Pure, No Cell Phone, No Gun, No Dog - Did it the Right Way" patch. But that would be one big patch :eek:

I already posted my patch - "Stop Sniveling, Start Hiking - As long as your walking, it is all good!" :p

kentucky
02-24-2005, 19:40
well I like what a buddy called wolf said Im not thrue hiking so put a white blaze on that you purist hiker:dance kentucky! just a wandering hiker cause i get lost sometimes and usually find my way back!

The Old Fhart
02-24-2005, 19:43
Maybe it wouldn't be quite as confusing (for some) if the A.T. followed the proceedure of the Long Trail and just call people who finish "end-to-end" hikers. Probably there are some northbound A.T. hikers who think they can stop when they see that big "2000 Mi." in the middle of the road in Maine. :D

Mountain Dew
02-24-2005, 20:37
First let me say that anybody who would send an email to a hiker regarding the manner in which they hike has to be a donkey's southern terminus. Hey, Fubar....think you could get that persons email address for me ? :D
-----------------
If the ATC did stop officially recognizing 2,000 milers/ thru-hikers and ALDHA took up the "record" keeping would anything really change ? The mass majority of the people that wanted a thru-hiker certificate would still not be honest about what it is they claim. Make no mistake about this people, the 2,000 miler patch's refers to those that thru-hike. They don't use the years current milage to keep from having to change the patches all the time. Thus usuing the term 2,000 miler is much easier to do. Also, the ATC uses the patches and thru-hiker certificates as a revenue making item. I don't see them giving it up in the near future. Back to ALDHA. I'd love for them to take up the patch/certificate issue. I believe they would be able to set official rules for such a thing without giving into the masses need for EVERYBODY being counted as a thru-hiker. They don't really care about increasing their membership thus they can afford to take a firm stand on the issue one way or another.

In the end just HYOH , don't lie about what you didn't do, and don't let the white blazes keep you bound if you want to go exploring off of the A.T. I thru-hiked in 2003 and found the time to blue blaze plenty. The group I thru-hiked with for the most part were the blue blazin/ yellow blazin type.

hikerjohnd
02-24-2005, 20:47
I agree that email was a croc of s**t! Sounds like someone with nothing better to do with their time other than pulling pud and then raining on someone else's parade. :mad: (mean people suck)

I do have a question though ... what are, where are, and who created the "official" definitions of:
1) thru-hiker
2) 2000-miler
3) Section hiker

And where do flip-flop hikers fit in?
What other classifications of hikers are there? (assuming they are going to complete the whole trail...)

Thanks!

SGT Rock
02-24-2005, 20:56
Well the "Official" 2,000 miler definition is on the ATC's site. http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/thru_hike/after.html. I guess with the name change they had to change the domain.

Thru-hiker is more a term for someone that has hiked the entire trail in one season or is in the proccess of attempting it. I think TrailPlace had a definition of it over there.

Section hiker is anyone hiking a section of a long trail.

orangebug
02-24-2005, 20:58
You might go to the ATC's website to look at their definitions. Thru hiker is a general term for those who have hiked between Maine and Georgia. The 2000 miler designation is the ATC's way to avoid getting trapped into judging other peoples' hikes, after making the error of demanding proof from Earl Schaffer that it was possible to complete the AT in one season.

Section hikers destinguish themselves as the best of all possible hikers, neither staying at home Internet hiking, nor bingeing on the whole bottle at once. We savor the flavors and fine nuances of hiking so much more than the rest, taking years to complete the fine wine of the AT. :p

There are other names for hikers, blue-blazers, yellow-blazers and others.

The Old Fhart
02-24-2005, 22:38
orangebug-"Section hikers destinguish themselves as the best of all possible hikers, neither staying at home Internet hiking, nor bingeing on the whole bottle at once." I see that viewpoint but I also see the viewpoint of the thru hikers. Maybe that's why the first of my hikes "2000 mile" hikes was a section and my second was a thru. :) There are +s and -s to each.

SGT Rock
02-24-2005, 22:45
I see that viewpoint but I also see the viewpoint of the thru hikers. Maybe that's why the first of my hikes "2000 mile" hikes was a section and my second was a thru. :) There are +s and -s to each.

Totally agree. I have been sectioning for a long time, and I really enjoy a wide variety of hiking experiences because I can pick the season and the trail or section which may give me a slightly different read on a place than the thru-hiker crowd that has a season and a time to get through any given place.

On the other hand, I am looking forward to a 6 month vacation on the trail. I'm not going out to try and discover myself on some pilgrimage, just trying to get a VERY LONG section hike in from Springer to Katahdin. :sun

flyfisher
02-24-2005, 22:51
Personally, I've tried to switch from using the term "thruhiker" to the term "distance hiker". So, rather than thruhiking, I'm distance hiking. Or, a long distance hiker. Or, better yet, just a hiker.

I like this. I've done some thinking recently about living an ultralight lifestyle as well as carrying an ultralight pack. This goes well along these lines. I don't think I need a lot of heavy adjecives to carry with me.

So, I am now simply going to be a hiker. It will usually come up where I started and where I hope to end up once the conversation starts.

MOWGLI
02-24-2005, 23:04
Were I attending the bi-annual ATC meeting this year I would risk looking like an idiot and put forth a motion for the ATC to get out of the 2,000 Miler business. Anyone can bring up anything for a vote on the floor.



I'm an ATC member and I'll be at the meeting in Johnson City. That'll get my vote.

MOWGLI
02-24-2005, 23:13
If the ATC did stop officially recognizing 2,000 milers/ thru-hikers and ALDHA took up the "record" keeping would anything really change ?



No, probably not. It might even become more contentious, and I say that as a member of ALDHA & ATC.


The mass majority of the people that wanted a thru-hiker certificate would still not be honest about what it is they claim.


Who cares? That's human nature. What does it mater if someone lies to get a patch? Does that diminish my hike or your hike or anybodys hike in any way?


I believe they would be able to set official rules for such a thing without giving into the masses need for EVERYBODY being counted as a thru-hiker.
IMO, this is the VERY LAST thing that is needed - more rules. It's a hike on a National Scenic Trail. Not the Boston Marathon or an Olympic sporting event.



In the end just HYOH , don't lie about what you didn't do, and don't let the white blazes keep you bound if you want to go exploring off of the A.T. I thru-hiked in 2003 and found the time to blue blaze plenty. The group I thru-hiked with for the most part were the blue blazin/ yellow blazin type.
That's sound advice, but stopping people from lying... IMO, it ain't never gonna happen. As a group, hikers would probably have a better shot at ending poverty or curing cancer.

TJ aka Teej
02-24-2005, 23:24
"2000 Miler" is a historical term that predates the first thru-hike by many years, it simply meant a person who has hiked the whole Trail. The AT wasn't built for thruhiking, the first person to hike every mile of the AT did it in sections pushing a measuring wheel, and when Earl Shaffer reported his hike he wasn't believed at first. But the ATC took his word for it, added his name to the 2000 miler list, and the tradition continues today. If the honor system was good enough for Myron, Earl, and Gene it should be good enough for today's hikers too.

Frosty
02-25-2005, 00:19
That's sound advice, but stopping people from lying... IMO, it ain't never gonna happen.Ain't gonna stop people from murdering each other, either, but that doesn't mean we ought to embrace it.

I guess I don't understand why people would lie to get a certificate or a patch? People are free to hike anyway they want, but why do it one way and claim to do it another to qualify for a patch that doesn't even apply to them?

I understand some cheating. I understand bass fishermen freezing fish and pretending to catch them in a tournament. There's money involved. I don't condone it, but I understand the motivation. $$$ What I don't understand is the motivation for people to say: "For me a hike is much more enjoyable and satidfying if I take side trips and not follow any exact route," and then signing a paper stating they followed the exact route and hiked every mile, something they say not only isn't even a goal of theirs, but is a silly thing to strive for in the first place.

It doesn't affect me either way, but I don't understand: What's the point of doing that? Maybe I'll undestand better when I've completed my own thruhike....

SGT Rock
02-25-2005, 00:27
Maybe it has more to do with just wanting people to know they are finished than actually wanting the patch or paper.

Youngblood
02-25-2005, 00:34
I agree that email was a croc of s**t! Sounds like someone with nothing better to do with their time other than pulling pud and then raining on someone else's parade. :mad: (mean people suck)

I do have a question though ... what are, where are, and who created the "official" definitions of:
1) thru-hiker
2) 2000-miler
3) Section hiker

And where do flip-flop hikers fit in?
What other classifications of hikers are there? (assuming they are going to complete the whole trail...)

Thanks!
Since a lot of thru-hikers use ALDHA's Thru Hikers Companion, it might be considered to have the "official" definitions in its glossary. Check it out here: http://www.aldha.org/companyn/appndx05.pdf ... here is what I found regarding your specific questions:

Thru-hiker--On the A.T., a hiker who is hiking from Maine to Georgia or Georgia to Maine in one trip or, generally accepted, a peron who has done same.

2,000-miler--A hiker who has hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail.

Section-hiker--A hiker who is hiking an entire trail over a period of years.

Flip-Flop--To hike a section of trail in one direction, then go ahead by car, bike, bus, train, or plane, and hike back in the other direction until you get to where the hike left off; sometimes practiced by thru-hikers to beat inhospitable weather, especially at Katahdin.

Purist--A hiker who makes a covenant with him- or herself prior to the hike and then keeps the covenant during the entire hike. Most commonly, the covenant is to hike past every white blaze or to carry a backpack for the entire distance, or both.

Blue-blazer--Hiker who is not committed to passing every white blaze.

Yellow-blazer--Someone who hitch hikes around sections of trail by following yellow blazes.

I doubt that everybody here will agree with these definitions and I say that because of past history. But, thru-hikers will see these definitions because the Thru Hikers Companion will be used by many of them to help guide the way and let them know what to expect... so in that regards, if the Thru Hikers Companion's definitions are in error, then that is just not fair!

Youngblood

wacocelt
02-25-2005, 01:14
Hey folks, before this turns into another horse beating Thru-Hike/2,000 miler debate, please allow me to put the topic at hand back into the lime-light.

It is uncalled for and absolutely childish for someone to try and degrade and demoralize a THRU-HIKER who got sick and took some time off. To attack someones integrity by imposing a personal standard which in no way can be interpreted from any publications by the ATC, ALDHA or Dr. Freaking Seuss is absolute nonsense.

I strongly doubt that any of the many purists who post here will disagree that it is out of line to impose thier opinions outside of a public forum in the form of a personal attack through a private communication.

steve hiker
02-25-2005, 02:00
The devil worshipers who made up that list forgot to include themselves in the definitions. They mention blue-blazers and yaller-blazers but didn't mention RED-BLAZERS who don't go to church and spend their time blaspheming and mocking the Lord and are heading STRAIGHT TO HELL unless they fall on their knees before Jesus Christ and REPENT.


Since a lot of thru-hikers use ALDHA's Thru Hikers Companion, it might be considered to have the "official" definitions in its glossary. Check it out here: http://www.aldha.org/companyn/appndx05.pdf ... here is what I found regarding your specific questions:

Thru-hiker--On the A.T., a hiker who is hiking from Maine to Georgia or Georgia to Maine in one trip or, generally accepted, a peron who has done same.

2,000-miler--A hiker who has hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail.

Section-hiker--A hiker who is hiking an entire trail over a period of years.

Flip-Flop--To hike a section of trail in one direction, then go ahead by car, bike, bus, train, or plane, and hike back in the other direction until you get to where the hike left off; sometimes practiced by thru-hikers to beat inhospitable weather, especially at Katahdin.

Purist--A hiker who makes a covenant with him- or herself prior to the hike and then keeps the covenant during the entire hike. Most commonly, the covenant is to hike past every white blaze or to carry a backpack for the entire distance, or both.

Blue-blazer--Hiker who is not committed to passing every white blaze.

Yellow-blazer--Someone who hitch hikes around sections of trail by following yellow blazes.

I doubt that everybody here will agree with these definitions and I say that because of past history. But, thru-hikers will see these definitions because the Thru Hikers Companion will be used by many of them to help guide the way and let them know what to expect... so in that regards, if the Thru Hikers Companion's definitions are in error, then that is just not fair!

Youngblood

shades of blue
02-25-2005, 08:42
I think Hydro did the only thing she could, and going home was the smart thing to do. As for her hike, she should decide what she wants to do, not based on some idiot who is on a power trip. If it is part of her "covenant" with herself to hike the trail w/o leaving it, she should start over. If her goal is to thru-hike...then she's still trying to complete it in one season, and I thought that was the "accepted definition" of a thru-hike. I doubt that many people on whiteblaze think it would be necessary for her to restart her hike at Springer, but in the end, she will have to decide what she wants and what she feels comfortable with.

The Cheat
02-25-2005, 08:59
There are other names for hikers, blue-blazers, yellow-blazers and others.
The name I prefer is The Cheat.

As for this person who sent the email to Hydro, they are just plain and simple a troll. Best to be ignored most of the time.

rickb
02-25-2005, 09:18
The "2000 Miler Award" is central to so much of the discord. Get rid of it.

There are so many valid standards, that common sense could allow for them all. Here are just a few each person could subscribe to:

1) The "Earl Standard". Hike all the White Blazes except we you take a wrong turn because you had your map mailed late. Make no appologies, but make sure that your "Alternative Route" is just as long.

2) A "Benton Mackaye Standard". Though he remained mum about the 2000 Miler Award, he thought the Trail was not a narrow footpath, but a corridor. The wider the better. Enough Said. This does make sense.

3) A "Late 21at Century Standard". The one that the ALDHA publishes in their book without quotes or givinging credit to their source-- the ATC. Also the one the ATC has on their application.

4) A "Hair-Splitter Standard". Same as #3 (Above) but without that line about "Honest Effort". Also called the late 1990s standard. As a sub catagory you might hike with "Warren Doyle" style points-- for those electing to ford the Kennebeck, trespass in the Zoo (if closed), and have your baggage carried for you.

5) The "Bill Bryson Standard". Read the last paragraph of his book. He didn't care what anyone says, "he hiked the AT". I can't disagree. He missed huge chunks but did hike the Trail in spirit. Perhaps he is most wise of all.

6) The "No Snivelling Standard". Which is all good, except when you snivel.

Of course there are many more standards-- all equally valid choices. Once the ATC steps aside, I think a lot of the bad feeling will wither up and go away. Everyone will be able to buy a patch or certificate (or not) and the idea that one kind of standard is worth of inclusion in the ATC records, while another is not, will be a thing of the past.

Rick B

wacocelt
02-25-2005, 10:09
6) The "No Snivelling Standard". Which is all good, except when you snivel.

Now THAT made all my ill will towards this subject go away. Priceless!

rickb
02-25-2005, 10:14
Did you see Sgt Rock's Patch? If not, do a search-- its a good one!

max patch
02-25-2005, 10:53
The "2000 Miler Award" is central to so much of the discord. Get rid of it.

Its reasonable and understandable that the organization that is responsible for the ENTIRE Appalachian Trail would recognize those individuals that hike the ENTIRE Appalachian Trail. Thats just common sense. Its also an effective marketing and financing tool.

The fact that some individuals feel the need to lie about their hike is a refection on those individuals and not the ATC.

Keep the award.

Max

Frosty
02-25-2005, 10:59
6) The "No Snivelling Standard". Which is all good, except when you snivel.Well, this isn't fair, you know, I mean sometimes things just don't go right, and it rains ALL the time, and then, well, is it sniveling if you just say you don't like the rain alot, I mean, that's just not fair, you know, because some people have it easier in rain than me, and sometimes when it rains the shelters are full and it isn't really sniveling if I mention a lot how unfair that is, and sometimes the uphills are just sooo long, and it isn't really sniveling if I comment for the upteenth time, and what if the long uphill is in the rain and the shleter at the top of the hill is full and I have to set my tent up in the rain, you mean I can't complain about that, because that's unfair when even Sgt Rock and the Combat Happy Joes of Easy Co. might even do what is close to sniveling, excpet of course for Bulldozer, but he'd just clear out the shelter and what is the difference if he snivels or makes everyone else snivel because now they are out in the rain, and this standard is just sooooo unfair and ......

wacocelt
02-25-2005, 11:12
The fact that some individuals feel the need to lie about their hike is a refection on those individuals and not the ATC.

Max Patch, I need you to clarify your intent, are you merely responding to the statement about the 2,000 miler patch causing problems, or are you inferring that Hydro will be lying when and if she applys for a certificate?

rickb
02-25-2005, 11:23
Wacocelt--

In case Maxpatch is out doing something useful, let me jump in. The requirements that the ATC has laid down on paper for thier award has absolutley NOTHING to do with whether or not one interupts his/her hike.

I got us off on a tangent, and Max Patche's comments have nothing to do with Hydro. Of that I am 100% certain

But that's all the more reason to do away with the 2,000 Mile Award. Any conversation regarding it puts one next to (if not touching) the third rail. People get misunderstood all the fricken time. The smartest folk are those who are smart enough to say nothing-- I might evolve to that point in a decade or two.

Rick B

max patch
02-25-2005, 11:28
Max Patch, I need you to clarify your intent, are you merely responding to the statement about the 2,000 miler patch causing problems, or are you inferring that Hydro will be lying when and if she applys for a certificate?

I was referring to Rick's comment that the 2,000 miler patch should be discontinued.

Nothing wrong with Hydro going home to get well. The guy/gal that sent the email is an idiot.

weary
02-25-2005, 11:34
It's this type of pomp and circumstance that has made me decide that I really DON'T want to hike the entire AT in one year. If walking every inch of the AT puts me in company with snobbish people who make remarks like that then I'm outta the GaMe. I wouldn't cross the street for a 2,000 miler certificate now.
If the "snobs" today are anything like the purist "snobs" of 1993, there won't be many of them and most will be quietly hiding their snobbishness to avoid dirision from other hikers.

I only met a handful of people who I was sure were in a "pass every white blaze" mode and I knew that more by their actions, than by anything they said. I'm sure there were others who were dedicated to reasonably meeting ATC guidelines, but it was not particularly obvious to this relatively late-starting hiker (April 13 at Amicalola).

One 26-year-old girl was almost in tears because a park ranger gave her a three mile ride so she could meet Rusty's truck at the appointed hour. She asked me if she had destroyed her chances for a thru hike. I told her that if she made it to Katahdin with no greater infraction than that I would personally sew her a 2,000-miler patch.

I got a card late the next summer saying she had finally finished the trail that July.

Weary

Mags
02-25-2005, 12:31
Maybe the Center for Appalachian Trail Studies would want a "No Trail Magic, Pure, No Cell Phone, No Gun, No Dog - Did it the Right Way" patch. But that would be one big patch :eek:


On my second LT trek in '99, saw a series of register entries from one hiker the said something along the lines of "XYZ Hiker - no slack packing, no blue blazes, no yellow blazes". Good for the hiker I say. But it reminded me of those "My child is an honor roll student at SOME ELEMENTARY SCHOOL" bumper stickers! In both cases my initial reacation is: Well that's nice, but why do you want the whole world to know. ;)

bearbait2k4
02-25-2005, 12:38
Well, I know this is hard to do, but maybe the best thing for most of us to do is just ignore those who believe their pious beliefs supercede any of our individual accomplishments.

Most people seem to believe that the best philosophy is to hike your own hike, and do what you are most comfortable with. When it gets to this level (e-mailing people who are hiking), it is certainly hard to ignore, but ignoring those comments and minding your own business and affairs, when it comes the hike you are hiking, is exactly what you are asking others to do for you, so why not do it for yourself?

It's hard to do, and I'm sure we've all gotten caught up at defending our own, or even others, actions, but there is no reason to do that. The only opinion that matters in this is your own.

shades of blue
02-25-2005, 12:45
Mags...this may be WAY off the subject...but those bumper stickers are to motivate children to acheive higher grades (same thing as being a "terrific kid" or "citizen of the month". Children can be very motivated by things like this, and it helps if their parents show that they are proud of their children's work. BTW I'm not writing as a parent....I'm writing as an elementary teacher.

kentucky
02-25-2005, 12:56
Well,Mags I can relate to your blazing comments and have some questions of my own like getting lost!and hiking sections of the old AT at times?and does walking over 2000 miles yet missing some sections invalidate one for a 2,000 miler patch?kentucky

bitpusher
02-25-2005, 13:04
It doesn't matter if you take away the 2000-miler award, or have another organization administer it, or change the definition of "thru-hiker", or change what you call it, or ignore that the term exists. What happened to Hydro, and what happens every time people start arguing about this, is not going to change. There are always people who have to make themselves feel better by tearing other people down. They participate, or pretend to participate, in every endeavor known to man. You can call them bullies, jackasses, ********, pricks, or whatever, but they are always there, and no amount of discussion is going to make them change.

The best way to deal with them is to accept that they are damaged goods, and ignore them. HYOH doesn't even begin to sum this up, but it's a good start.

Mags
02-25-2005, 13:06
2) A "Benton Mackaye Standard". Though he remained mum about the 2000 Miler Award, he thought the Trail was not a narrow footpath, but a corridor. The wider the better. Enough Said. This does make sense.



As I've said before, I find an interetiing dichotomy between Eastern and Western trails in terms of the culture.

Western trail orgs: More or less have the "corridor" idea. Never mind something like the CDT with a very loosley defined "trail", but for other more official trails such as the PCT, CT, JMT etc. as well. Take the official trail or a an alternate route. It's all good. Heck, the CT guide book even suggests for one stretch to get a ride up a jeep road as the stretch can be boring. I kid you not! (Not to say I would do it, but it is an option apparently!)

Eastern trail orgs: OFFICIALLY have a very definite sense of the trail. Hike the white (or yellow or blue..what ever the official trail is marked by) blazes. Nothing else.
But, more than one hiker has wrote the ATC, said they took an alternate route, and still rec'd the certificate.


Not good or bad, just different ways of looking at the trails.


Personally? I think someday the corridor idea may be officially sanctioned by the AT at somepoint esp. if another org decides to get into the whole 2000 miler business. Or maybe not. In the end I suspect it does not matter.

Mags
02-25-2005, 13:11
Mags...this may be WAY off the subject...but those bumper stickers are to motivate children to acheive higher grades (same thing as being a "terrific kid" or "citizen of the month". Children can be very motivated by things like this, and it helps if their parents show that they are proud of their children's work. BTW I'm not writing as a parent....I'm writing as an elementary teacher.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps some parents just like to brag.

I suspect both arguements are valid.

Mags
02-25-2005, 13:12
Well,Mags I can relate to your blazing comments and have some questions of my own like getting lost!and hiking sections of the old AT at times?and does walking over 2000 miles yet missing some sections invalidate one for a 2,000 miler patch?kentucky


I honestly don't know. I file this under the heading of "Thru-hiker angels dancing on a pin". :)

kentucky
02-25-2005, 13:27
while hikig out on the pct I found myself hiking parts of the jmt and also blue blazing kings canyon and seqouia parks,and pretty much up into Oregon the same! its what I call A covenant,hike where I please but can restpect purist ,If they can respect back,what I always thought was you had a year to finish the AT to be considered a thru hiker,It makes people feel like they have committed a crime if they missed a white blaze!I have even been with people who backtracked while I waited for them just to feel like they were complete,I just smiled and enjoyed my wait,its a new adventure every time I go and hike,as far as the purist who replied she wasnt a thru hiker I can only say it was a rude and unfair statement :datz kentucky

JP
02-25-2005, 14:14
Does hiking a blueblaze to a water source then back to the trail mean you didn't hike the trail? I thought the point of the blue blaze to water was to lessen the inpact at water sources. It seems to me going back the same way would double the impact to that trail. I think starting where you left off after an injury is good enough.

jmaclennan
03-01-2005, 23:55
I never completely understood why people care what anyone else does when they hike (though I have some ideas). I find it fascinating and quite humerous at times though. It doesn't only happen online either. For instance, a well known "purist" in '03 wrote in a PA shelter about a "knot of partying losers... [who should] hike your own hike somewhere else," and that they "should be disgusted with yourselves." Too funny. Other people deface register entries of hikers who aren't "doing it right." Why? I have some ideas. Another time, my man Baltimore Jack gave me some crap for cutting a shelter loop in PA. As I'm walking out he says, "where ya going? To get some Monastat? I knew your were pu**ying it all the way from Georgia." Ha! Not only do these incidents provide comic relief, but they may get us to stop and think about "what they hell am I doing out here." If we have a good idea what that is, these types of things probably shouldn't bother us.

Freeze
03-02-2005, 02:34
I could care less about what other people think, or about a stupid patch, or recognition for walking a certain distance others see fit. I'm out there for me and nothing else. Those who put people down, want to impose their ways on others, or simply have an inferiority problem and must prove to be better than everyone else can kiss my ass!

weary
03-02-2005, 10:16
On my second LT trek in '99, saw a series of register entries from one hiker the said something along the lines of "XYZ Hiker - no slack packing, no blue blazes, no yellow blazes". Good for the hiker I say. But it reminded me of those "My child is an honor roll student at SOME ELEMENTARY SCHOOL" bumper stickers! In both cases my initial reacation is: Well that's nice, but why do you want the whole world to know. ;)
I don't like to admit it in public, but I'll tell you folks if you promise not to tell anyone else, I kinda like irony of the bumper sticker that says, "My kid beat up your honor student." If nothing else the two bumper stickers reflect the sad divisions of this country.

Weary

Frosty
03-02-2005, 10:39
I could care less about what other people think, or about a stupid patch, or recognition for walking a certain distance others see fit. I'm out there for me and nothing else. Those who put people down, want to impose their ways on others, or simply have an inferiority problem and must prove to be better than everyone else can kiss my ass!Not to be a punk here, but if you don't care what we think, why bother explaining your philosophy and why so angry about it?

weary
03-02-2005, 10:41
Originally posted by MAGs. Eastern trail orgs: OFFICIALLY have a very definite sense of the trail. Hike the white (or yellow or blue..what ever the official trail is marked by) blazes. Nothing else.
But, more than one hiker has wrote the ATC, said they took an alternate route, and still rec'd the certificate.
I wish ATC would make the policy match their practice. I doubt if the patch matters that much to many thru hikers. Most, I suspect, register to let people they have met along the trail know they finally reached Katahdin. And those you meet on trails already know how both you and they have hiked.

I never applied because I bypassed southern New England in order to allow a painful nerve that made sleeping impossible to calm down and because I wanted to end my six months in Maine and on Katahdin, a state and mountain I have hiked many times, both before and since.

I've picked up most of the missed miles but I doubt if I'll ever get around to applying.

WEary

Freeze
03-02-2005, 14:39
Not to be a punk here, but if you don't care what we think, why bother explaining your philosophy and why so angry about it?

Just because i don't care about approval or recognition from anyone regarding my hike does not mean i'm going to let someone take shots at me and put me down because we see things differently. I had that happen a couple of times last year on the trail. I put an end to that real fast. You hike your own hike, and i'll hike mine. Simple. There is no wrong or right. Just different choices.

As far as being angry, that's just the way i am.
I'm an ANGRY MAN!

Marta
03-02-2005, 15:34
Question for purists (if anyone will admit to the disease): Does one have to touch every white blaze? Pass within 2'? 3'? 6'? Is there an objective standard for doing it right? :confused:

Maybe the corridor idea makes some sense...

Marta

Lone Wolf
03-02-2005, 15:36
******* foolishness. All of it. :dance

Footslogger
03-02-2005, 16:05
[QUOTE=Marta]Question for purists (if anyone will admit to the disease): Does one have to touch every white blaze? Pass within 2'? 3'? 6'? Is there an objective standard for doing it right? :confused:
=======================================
Hell ...at my age I just hope to see them now and then. Rest of the time I follow the beaten path and hope to heck it's not a spur trail (which I've been known to wander off on now and then)

'Slogger
AT 2003

weary
03-02-2005, 16:37
Question for purists (if anyone will admit to the disease): Does one have to touch every white blaze? Pass within 2'? 3'? 6'? Is there an objective standard for doing it right? :confused: Maybe the corridor idea makes some sense...Marta

All purists will have to make their own rules. But ATC says their patch is for those who walk "every mile" of the trail between Springer and Katahdin, unless dangerous conditions force you to follow a different route. The only real debate in my mind involves those who follow loop blue blaze trails to shelters and scenic places without backtracking to pick up missed white blazes.

From the many reports I've heard, ATC will issue a patch even if you tell them about such "blue blazing," but their guidelines as written strike me as ambiguous at best.

I refuse to read the guidelines again, but if I remember rightly they talk about the "trail" not blazes. So the distance from the White Blaze plays no role in awarding patches. Wherever the trail goes, you are supposed to go, unless the trail is particularly dangerous that day -- high water in streams, the trail blocked by blowdowns, and such things.

"If it seems right, it is right," is really the only rule anyone needs.

Weary

steve hiker
03-02-2005, 18:54
Being a section hiker, I'm exempt from most of this foolishness. I hike when I like, where I like, like I like. Half the time it isn't even on the AT. Western states like Colorado and Montana beat the hell out of most of the AT, and I haven't seen a blaze out there yet. One of these days I'll probably finish 2,000 miles on the AT, but nobody will notice and I won't apply for a patch or diploma. That's not where it's "AT".

Mountain Dew
03-03-2005, 00:02
I love being a purist that also goes on blue blazes when I feel like doing so. :p

bearbait2k4
03-03-2005, 01:46
I see absolutely nothing wrong with being a purist. I feel like a purist at heart, because I still feel like I've kind of cheated myself by not doing every mile, even though I had incredible times every time I've been out. However, many people can feel complete by simply trying, or just walking the miles that they want.

It really, REALLY shouldn't be this big of a deal, but I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Bjorkin
03-03-2005, 13:52
None of these ways of hiking the AT are wrong, but none of them are right.

However YOU decide to hike is the way to hike.

Even if you hike exactly how it's defined in the books, it isn't your hike until you actually hike it. So, trying to claim a certain hiking style is completely ironic to the point of the trail. By trying to define the trail instead of letting the trail define you you've already lost the best experience you could have gained.

Whenever I hike loops in other parks in my local area, nobody ever debates the way that loop was completed. Only if you enjoyed yourself.

So, the only reason for this discussion is due to the existence of a need to define "thru-hike" and it's attached trophies. Even in the great wide open wilderness some of us still like to self-imposed rules. This is a great living experiment for sociologists and the like.

Basically, I believe you are entitled to your opinion, style of hiking, and the freedom to do so without judgment. But with that freedom comes the responsibility to let others do the same. Feel welcome to share your hike and story with me, but if your "hiking style" is imposing rules on others then I'd prefer to let you pass me by.

Jack Tarlin
03-03-2005, 19:43
Geez, here we go again.

For myself, I'm a white-blaze purist. When I set out to hike the A.T., I hike all of it. If I ever by-pass a section, I make sure to do come back and get it done. Anyone that has hiked with me and watches how I cross roads or deal with blowdowns, or go in and out of shelters/campsites knows how I feel about this. I also do blue-blazes, especially if a view or waterfall is involved, but I do them in addition to the regular trail as opposed to instead of it. When my trip's over, I know I've done the whole thing, and it's a good feeling.

Is this method for everyone?

Nope.

Is this how everyone should hike?

Of course not?

Is any one person's way of hiking "better" or more significant than anyone else's?

Of course not.

People who are committed to hiking the Trail in its entirety will find a way to do so. People who don't feel this is an important goal will find a way to do whatever they want to do, and that's fine, too. As long as folks are honest with themselves and others about what they've done, then who really cares where they go?

In short, decide for yourself what's important and what works FOR YOU. Concentrate on YOUR journey and let other folks work out theirs. Years later, what other folks did or didn't do during the course of their hikes will seem really unimportant. What matters is how you feel about YOUR journey, and not anyone else's.

Hike where you like and like where you hike. And that pretty much covers it.

Lone Wolf
03-03-2005, 19:53
I'm blue-blazing life. It's a good ******ing feeling! :D

Rift Zone
03-03-2005, 21:15
If walking every inch of the AT puts me in company with snobbish people who make remarks like that then I'm outta the GaMe. I wouldn't cross the street for a 2,000 miler certificate now.

I'm going to send the ATC a letter of completion with my trail name on it. No birth name, no address. "Rift Zone was there" is all they get.

Mountain Dew
03-04-2005, 01:56
Wolf, Please tell me three blue blazes on the A.T. that a purist such as myself should make a side trip for. Mind you I'll just back track to the white blazes...lol Thanks...

ps. or anybody for that matter.... jump in on my question please.

Youngblood
03-04-2005, 09:05
Wolf, Please tell me three blue blazes on the A.T. that a purist such as myself should make a side trip for. Mind you I'll just back track to the white blazes...lol Thanks...

ps. or anybody for that matter.... jump in on my question please.

Okay. I'll play and throw out one for you. How about the blue blazed Duncan Ridge Trail in Georgia from Three Forks (4.1 miles north of Springer) to the south side of Blood Mountain (27 miles north of Springer). This trail forms a loop with the AT and allows you to see the beautiful Toccoa River with it's unusual pedestrian bridge... it's also one sweet campsite and there is nothing like it on the Georgia AT. It also allows you to get away from the busier AT and will test your outdoor skills more than the GA AT since you will be on a less used trail without shelters, as many obvious campsites, blazes, water sources or switchbacks along the very tough section between little Skeenah Creek and Slaughter Gap. It is a great blue blaze, there is even a hiker friendly little coutry store that is 0.3 mile away at a road crossing (GA 60) about 17 miles from Three Forks with sodas limited resupply, microwave sandwiches, ice cream and such. I don't know if any Blue Blazers do this but that may be because they haven't thought of it.

Now, a Blue Blazer could just hike the whole DRT and just rejoin the AT without much difference in his total mileage or hike to GA 60, visit the country store, hitch a ride to Woody Gap (also on GA 60) and rejoin the AT. A White Blazer has more of a dilemia if he wants to see the Toccoa River and bridge; he has about an 8 mile blue just to get to it from Long Creek Falls... so what's a White Blazer going to do? Pass... blue blaze the 8 miles (each way)... hitch as close as possible from Woody Gap, blue blaze the 3.7 miles to the bridge (each way) and hitch back to Woody Gap?

Youngblood

SGT Rock
03-04-2005, 09:12
Take the Blue-Blaze! At least in my case I already did the WhiteBlaze anyway.

Lone Wolf
03-04-2005, 09:12
Blue-blazers don't take side trips then back track to the AT. You take a blue-blaze as an alternative to the AT. That's the point. To get off the I-95 AT route. The road less traveled. Anal purists will never understand or enjoy it.

orangebug
03-04-2005, 10:38
The Mau-Har Trail up in Central VA is a nice Blue Blaze with waterfalls and streams.

Mags
03-04-2005, 11:05
When I did the AT, I was an Ivory Snow purist - 99 44/100% pure. :)

If I was not dropped off at the exact spot, would not go back. I used loop trails that came in and out the shelter. A massive blow down section in NY made me bushwhack in the vicinity of the AT. I did a road walk I vividly remember in Massachusetts. The "trail" was in chest deep water due to flooding. Decided to turn around and do a road walk that hooked back to the AT. Incidentally, I would NOT have seen the road walk if it was not for the map I had. Better to do a road walk than to swim a trail. :) But overall, stuck to the white blazes.

What does all this mean? I think now that I've done lots of hiking out West, where even the official trails have more of corridor approach, would tend to approach the AT the same way. Nothing wrong if following a pre-define route, but I like the idea of making my own route. Having a traditional thru-hike under my feet (if you will), and having done other trails (and much off trail travel, now), the idea of following one trail and one trail only, as opposed to staying in a corridor, does not appeal to me as much.

I would tell the ATC what I did when I finished. This is just my idea of a hike. Whatever works for you and gives YOU the most enjoyment. The important thing is to just get out there and have fun while hiking.

shades of blue
03-04-2005, 13:30
Jack may have already left home (seen on his resupply post), but I'm curious. Maybe others can comment, but I'd like to hear Jack too, if he reads this. His post said "Anyone that has hiked with me and watches how I cross roads or deal with blowdowns, or go in and out of shelters/campsites knows how I feel about this." (my bolding, not his).

So, if I don't crawl under the blowdown, but walk around, I'm not a purist? Just curious, because I think of all the places where it is near impossible to tell what is the actually marked trail and what isn't. The tree is in the middle of the trail, their is a footpath around both sides and they both look equal, which one to take if you're a "purist"? Leaving several GSMNP shelters, it is near impossible to tell what is the trail, and what is one of the many paths that the trail continues on. If I'm walking up a rutted trail that it is impossible to see completely because it is overgrown, do I walk ankle deep where I can't see, or upon the well tread path beside it?

I can hear Youngblood now....he's laughing his arse off at me (we've discussed purists and blue blazing before). This is half serious, and half sad. Looking at it from this point of view....some level of being a purist has to be having a lack of common sense. Yet, in my heart I consider myself a purist. I want to hike by all the white blazes (no, not touching each one). I have a covenent with myself to hike the white blazes, GA to ME. Am I already "disqualified" because I walk around a tree, I take the path that obviously hundreds of hikers ahead of me have taken? Or I see a log with a huge nest of yellow jackets, so I walk off trail around the hive?

I'm not talking about judging others, I'm talking about judging myself. Anyway....thanks for the psycotherapy.....
Shades

White Oak
03-04-2005, 13:41
So, if I don't crawl under the blowdown, but walk around, I'm not a purist? Just curious, because I think of all the places where it is near impossible to tell what is the actually marked trail and what isn't. The tree is in the middle of the trail, their is a footpath around both sides and they both look equal, which one to take if you're a "purist"? Leaving several GSMNP shelters, it is near impossible to tell what is the trail, and what is one of the many paths that the trail continues on. If I'm walking up a rutted trail that it is impossible to see completely because it is overgrown, do I walk ankle deep where I can't see, or upon the well tread path beside it?

You must walk OVER the blowdown. Or float, like Jesus H. Chryst. If you want you hiker soul to remain pure and go to heaven.

Youngblood
03-04-2005, 17:09
Jack may have already left home (seen on his resupply post), but I'm curious. Maybe others can comment, but I'd like to hear Jack too, if he reads this. His post said "Anyone that has hiked with me and watches how I cross roads or deal with blowdowns, or go in and out of shelters/campsites knows how I feel about this." (my bolding, not his).

So, if I don't crawl under the blowdown, but walk around, I'm not a purist? Just curious, because I think of all the places where it is near impossible to tell what is the actually marked trail and what isn't. The tree is in the middle of the trail, their is a footpath around both sides and they both look equal, which one to take if you're a "purist"? Leaving several GSMNP shelters, it is near impossible to tell what is the trail, and what is one of the many paths that the trail continues on. If I'm walking up a rutted trail that it is impossible to see completely because it is overgrown, do I walk ankle deep where I can't see, or upon the well tread path beside it?

I can hear Youngblood now....he's laughing his arse off at me (we've discussed purists and blue blazing before). This is half serious, and half sad. Looking at it from this point of view....some level of being a purist has to be having a lack of common sense. Yet, in my heart I consider myself a purist. I want to hike by all the white blazes (no, not touching each one). I have a covenent with myself to hike the white blazes, GA to ME. Am I already "disqualified" because I walk around a tree, I take the path that obviously hundreds of hikers ahead of me have taken? Or I see a log with a huge nest of yellow jackets, so I walk off trail around the hive?

I'm not talking about judging others, I'm talking about judging myself. Anyway....thanks for the psycotherapy.....
Shades
Me laughing? All you got to do is look it up in the Official AT White Blazer's Thru-Hiking Rule Book. If you don't have one I suspect Mountain Dew or Max Patch might loan you theirs.

Youngblood

shades of blue
03-04-2005, 20:35
Ummmm.....Is this official, or just an opinion. I mean, I'm going to stay true to what I have already decided to do, regardless....but if by going around blow downs, if I haven't truly hiked the entire trail in the ATC's eyes, I shouldn't report it. I know people probably think I'm just picking on purists...but truly, for my first entire hike of the AT, I was trying to go the purists route. :confused:

SavageLlama
03-04-2005, 22:44
I just read this thread and want the last 10 mins of my life back.

shades of blue
03-05-2005, 00:53
Llama...next time,just say no. :datz

Mountain Dew
03-05-2005, 02:07
LW, Anal purists will never understand or enjoy it.--- That makes about as much sense as a "bushwacker" telling a blue blazer he just doesn't understand true hiking. What if I said that all blue blazers that only hike on blue blazes in the AT corridor just don't understnad ? They would be limiting themselves to just the blue blazes inside the corridor afterall. That would make them the same as white blazers but only with a bigger scope. That would be anal the same way a blue blazer telling a "purist" his way is short sighted.

Funny how it is very hiker PC to slam a purist, but hardly a soul raises a finger if the role is reversed. Then again if you see one side bashing the other for their hiking beliefs it's almost always the blue blazes slamming the purist. I simply don't understand this concept. You hike your hike and I couldn't care less, but why bash me for wanting to see every white blaze ?

DMA, 2000
03-05-2005, 13:10
Shades of Blue:

I've heard Jack talking about this before. Essentially, he will walk right up to the blow-down and put his foot as far forward as possible. Then he retreats, walks around the blow-down, as prudent, and then backtracks on the trail in an attempt to reach the spot of his most advanced footprint. Nothing wrong with that, no need for anyone to get defensive. It's just part of one man's personal standard for his hike. I think it's excessive, and I wouldn't do it. That's part of another man's standard.

Sorry, Jack, if memory fails, but I really do think that's what you said. Maybe it wasn't.

Mags - here's a story about the "Honor Student" Bumper Sticker. My sister teaches elementary school in a fairly rough part of Los Angeles (not the worst part, but up there). She had one little boy who was a bit of a problem child who worked really hard to be good. He was still a problem, but showed a lot of improvement, so she gave him a "Citizen o' the Month" sticker. He came back on Monday and told how he showed it to his mother, and she started crying and saying how proud she was, and insisted that his father see it. So over the weekend, they went to the LA County Jail to show the father, and of course the father was so proud HE started crying, which set off the mother and the son as well.

After hearing that, I've never looked at those stickers the same way again.:sun

shades of blue
03-05-2005, 13:16
Thanks DMA, that helps and explaines his point better.
Shades

Mags
03-06-2005, 00:04
After hearing that, I've never looked at those stickers the same way again.:sun
That's nice.

The one time I placd a bumper sticker on the family car my Dad sworte a blue streak.

I never looked at those stickers the same way again.

Mags
03-06-2005, 00:06
L You hike your hike and I couldn't care less, but why bash me for wanting to see every white blaze ?
That's a very good point. Let everyone enjoy their hike. If a purist has a "live and let live" attitude, then shouldn't we all?

Mags - who hiked 20 miles today via bushwhacking, no blazes and roadwalking :)

hikerjohnd
03-06-2005, 00:22
The one time I placd a bumper sticker on the family car my Dad sworte a blue streak.
Oh that brings back memories... some good, some bad... but the paint on the bumper never really looked the same again. :D

Mountain Dew
03-06-2005, 00:27
DMA... While I can't speak for Jack I will say that I did hike with him for about 1,400 hundred miles and what you said it for the most part is true.

Mags...isn't bushwacking in Colorado this time of year called snow shoeing ? :( I once tried to bushwack in alabama and came out looking like the "passion of the dew" with all the scares on my legs. :datz

Mags
03-06-2005, 01:49
Mags...isn't bushwacking in Colorado this time of year called snow shoeing ? :( I once tried to bushwack in alabama and came out looking like the "passion of the dew" with all the scares on my legs. :datz
:)

Well, we stuck to the foothills. We hiked from Boulder to a small town called Nederland aka Ned (8240', pop 1500) in the foothills. The whole point of this trip was to explore the odd and little known areas between these towns in th foothills. And also to hike to to this town for Nepalese food at the Katmandu restaurant. Mmmmm. :)

Started at 8:30 AM, started at Chautaqua Park (6000' elev. ) hiked some trails to Flagstaff Mtn. Bushwhacked and wound up in knee high snow in spots! Followed a contentious "trail" that may or may not be a public trail to a dirt road, followed the "trail" a bit more on the other side, bushwhacked again to mtn bike "trails" (rutted dirt roads actually) and made it to Ned by 4:30. The final stretch was down another dirt road. Yep..some snow, but overall not too bad. Been a warm week so the snow was down a bit. The high country is another story! We guesstimate about 20 miles hiking, 3000' elev gain with all the dips and climbs. Nice day with wonderful views of the divide. Bushwhacking in CO is probably easier than Ala. because I suspect CO is less heavily wooded that Ala. Thick wood and underbrush can mean hard bushwhacking! Though I had days where it could be "The Passion of Mags" ..(another description of how I eat? :D)


Tomorrow? Who knows...a run? another hike? It's all good...

Mags
03-06-2005, 01:51
Oh that brings back memories... some good, some bad... but the paint on the bumper never really looked the same again. :D

:)

Heh..that may be why our Dads swore a blue streak!

jmaclennan
03-07-2005, 14:45
Funny how it is very hiker PC to slam a purist, but hardly a soul raises a finger if the role is reversed. Then again if you see one side bashing the other for their hiking beliefs it's almost always the blue blazes slamming the purist. I simply don't understand this concept. You hike your hike and I couldn't care less, but why bash me for wanting to see every white blaze ?

just want to set the record strait: mt. douche, your post about blue blazers being hypocrits for slamming purists is like the pot calling the kettle black. honestly, you need to follow your own advice. if you've stopped defacing the register entries of blue blazers on the Trail, good for you. otherwise, stop spewing such hypocrisy. :datz
everyone else, jack is right: decide for YOURSELF what you want to do and stop worrying so much about what other people think. if you care so much about others' opinions, you should stop and ask yourself exactly why (and possibly seek therapy).

attroll
03-07-2005, 14:58
I would just like to reemphasize what wacocelt said in his forst post:


I just hope folks can realize that the people you'll meet on the AT and those who skulk in the shadows of the internet AT are very different critters.

Frosty
03-07-2005, 15:29
just want to set the record strait: mt. douche, your post about blue blazers being hypocrits for slamming purists is like the pot calling the kettle black. honestly, you need to follow your own advice. if you've stopped defacing the register entries of blue blazers on the Trail, good for you. otherwise, stop spewing such hypocrisy. :datz
everyone else, jack is right: decide for YOURSELF what you want to do and stop worrying so much about what other people think. if you care so much about others' opinions, you should stop and ask yourself exactly why (and possibly seek therapy)..
Mirror?

Nean
03-07-2005, 20:14
I once came to a fork in the trail and took the white blaze, later I came back and took the blue blaze and I'll be dam (beaver, I reckon) - It didn't make the slightest bit of difference!

jmaclennan
03-07-2005, 21:37
frosty, i've looked. i just have a bug up my arse about mt. dew cause he didn't return a survey i sent him (that he said he would). his remarks just give me a chance to bust his chops. for real, it's one thing to care about what others think and another to call someone out for b.s.ing others. by the way, good luck on your hike this year. hopefully, if someone starts giving you crap about the way you hike, it won't bother you.

attroll, i agree for the most part with wacocelt's statement, but as i and someone else said in previous posts (#57 in my case) a lot of this happens on the trail. sometimes in fun, sometimes not. often it takes place in shelter registers, which are similar to forums like this one in that they do not require face-to-face interaction. as many have pointed out, this is likely why they are so bold.

mt. dew, sorry for calling you mt. douche. i'm just trying to get you back for trying unsuccessfully to change my trailname. still waiting for that survey.

Rocks 'n Roots
03-08-2005, 00:15
I sort of respect people who want to pass every white blaze and do the AT justice. In a sense the reverse is true that some people have become "impurists" and think that suggesting doing the whole thing is against the Trail.

If you make the effort and try to get as much of the entire thing in as possible I think you've earned the certificate. Funny that the same people who talk about "angels on the head of a pin" are in here splitting hairs about stepping around blowdowns.


I honestly think yellow blazers should have their certificate denied...

Mags
03-08-2005, 00:55
. Funny that the same people who talk about "angels on the head of a pin" are in here splitting hairs about stepping around blowdowns.


Well RnR, that's my favorite saying so I think you are talking about me. When somene said to me "If go around the blow down am I still pure?" and I said. I don't know.

I still don't know! :)

Otherwise, you had a post I actually agreed with for the most part. :)

Mountain Dew
03-08-2005, 01:46
OK Brown Splatter oops I mean Grey Matter ! Calling me Mtn. Douche is still funny nomatter how many times I hear you say it. :D You did make one factual error though. I never bad mouthed the blue blazerz in registers. The people I'd say something about were the ones that felt the need to slam purists or lie about what they were doing. This didn't happen often like you make it seem. I'm not sure what is worse. The smell of your farts or taking your **** talking. hahaaa

PS. The dog ate the survey brother... MAIRNTTT...... :dance

Nean
03-08-2005, 09:57
From what I've seen, only 10% follow the white and another 30-40% actualy walk the whole way. That leaves at least 50% who have their own special truth. I've heard of one person who was a well known for hitchiking more of the cdt than he walked -recieve a triple crown award. Truth doesn't stand a chance

Blue Jay
03-08-2005, 11:24
Truth doesn't stand a chance

Humans and truth rarely travel together together. If lying about hitch hiking is the worst one you've ever been told, you are amazingly lucky. All and all, I would say that one is soooo below my radar of concern as to be nonexistent.

Nean
03-08-2005, 15:56
Now that's the truth Blue jay!!! "If" sure is a big word- however, I have meet people who have never been decieved in their entire life! Gotta get me a new screen.

steve hiker
03-08-2005, 16:14
I'm sick of liars and will pop the next hiker who lies about following the blazes. That's right, pop a cap in his ass! :datz

leeki pole
03-08-2005, 16:40
We need AT referees. They could have black and white striped backpacks and a penalty flag. When they saw a hiker blue or yellow blazing, they could throw the flag and penalize the hiker accordingly (5 miles for a yellow, 15 for a blue). Also, LNT violations such as TP flowers or trash in a shelter could warrant un-Trail-like conduct penalties of 15 miles or in severe cases, tossed out of the game.

And our recon satellites could serve as instant replay officials. If a hiker wanted to challenge the referee's call, he or she could throw the red flag all hikers would be required to carry and the NSA would have 2 minutes to issue a ruling.

Each hiker would be welcomed to a new State by an official who would raise both arms above the head (touchdown) and this would serve as proof that the hiker did in fact legally hike that state and was entitled to enter the next. This would put an end to any questions of thru-hiker veracity. Only the touchdown signal at Katahdin or Springer will give 2,000 mile status to a hiker. :jump

Nean
03-08-2005, 16:43
No UGH, NOOOoo!! Don't Worry, Be Happy! And to mags,YEESsss!! You can walk around a blowdown and still be PURE! I checked and its O.K.

Nean
03-08-2005, 16:52
Blue is worst than Yellow? Now we have an issue!! Hold on, just kidding but couldn't we find someone for UGH?

leeki pole
03-08-2005, 17:08
Thanks Nean, I got those backwards. I think also those penalties should also carry a "loss of town." :datz

Nightwalker
03-08-2005, 22:56
Only the touchdown signal at Katahdin or Springer will give 2,000 mile status to a hiker.
THE AVERY COWS ARE WATCHING

Stay to the white, pass on the right,
Don't shine your light in a shelter at night...
The avery cows are watching...

Don't excite a pigeon in flight,
Don't stop for sight where mosquitos bite...
The avery cows are watching...

Evade detection of you cellular connection,
Concealed in your bivy, speak while in the privy...
The avery cows are watching...

Be part of the quota and register often.
Pay no heed to Avery who spins in his coffin.
The avery cows are watching

Avoid packin' umbrellas, fine ladies, good fellas...
When turned inside-out, they'll provide you no clout!
the avery cows are watching.

Beware of cow pies that your footware might snag
They may be radio monitors in drag
the avery cows are watching.

The one with the bell, is the one that will tell,
if you hike during the night, or do all the white!
the avery cows are watching.

Spurn GPS, taste watercress,
Heaven forbid if you hike in a dress . . .
the avery cows are watching

Visit the king who sits in the Center
He says who must leave and who may enter.
the avery cows are watching

Bovine avery monitors..Only in Hot Springs they'll be seen
Praise the hoof_in_ mouth quarantine
the avery cows are watching

Stop in at the Center, we'll tattoo your head
Or implant a chip if you'd like that instead.
the avery cows are watching

TJ did warn us, right from the start.
It's sheep that are dumb, cows are too smart
To clutter their hike by watching the rest.
They just make their hike into one of the best.
Keep your eyes peeled for those subjects of loathing.
Some cows may be sheep dressed up in cow clothing......

the Avery sheep are watching.....

Rocks 'n Roots
03-08-2005, 23:47
It's amazing how some people believe themselves to be tolerant, but then go to silly lengths to avoid admitting they just can't tolerate someone who feels he has to earn the certificate. Or that the certificate means anything - like when ATC first issued them. Funny these people see themselves as mocking those who try to force an interpretation of certificate, but don't see themselves as trying to equally force their own interpretation...


My wisdom of Solomon decision is to give the certificates to those who look like they've done it. Then if someone has a problem with it they can expose the cheating on the net (whether people care or not). Some people don't mind cheapening the certificate. Others do...

MedicineMan
03-09-2005, 01:01
so sorry if i've every flammed or pissed in anyone's cereal bowl here or anywhere else....i've always tried to stick with gear but being a humanoid i'm sure i've strayed a bit here and there...so how about more hiking and less typing :)

Nean
03-09-2005, 01:13
Ya know... I had a funny feelin about that cow

The Cobbler
03-09-2005, 01:35
:welcome back to preschool.

Bobby stop hitting Suzie!!

If your word means about as much as one of those cow poop radio monitors mentioned above I would hate to have your life.

If you have integrity it means you don't lie.(notice the BIG "if") 2,000 miler is for those who pass every foot of the AT. Granted the AT changes at times. Sometimes it goes a few feet around a blowdown, sometimes it goes around Fontana Dam for 20 some miles, sometimes with bad weather it follows the Blue Blaze.

We all know what hiking the AT from End to End means. Its just a simple question of INTEGRITY.

Got Integrity?

Sly
03-09-2005, 01:45
And sometimes you follow your own path and don't give a ratz ass about being a purist! :p

The Cobbler
03-09-2005, 02:04
Sly--- Hike however you want. Hike on your hands, hike barefoot, hike at night, hike with green eggs and ham, hike every other section and yellow blaze in between, hike every blue blaze you can, etc.

In other words be the anti purist. I hope you have fun. I hope I meet you on the trail and we can have a great conversation over ramen.

What I am saying is that the "2,000 Miler" is only for those who discipline themselves to hike every mile of the AT sometime in their life.

This isn't about being a purist or not. Its about being a LIAR or not.

Sly I hope you understand the difference and I'm sure that though you may not want to be a "purist" you are a person of your word.

Godspeed all!!

Nean
03-09-2005, 02:44
I'm out of the cow poop loop so.... Welcome Cobbler! Imagine, folks without integrity, then hike the trail and meet them! No really.., you can... go crazy. Here is a secret from an old man.... who once told me, It ain't about the patch or the color of the blaze. People are on the trail for many reasons: yours, like mine, is just one of them. So HYOH and know in your heart that you are one of the few. Everyone, including you, has a right to their opinion\hike. By the way, Suzie started it!

Tim Rich
03-09-2005, 08:09
THE AVERY COWS ARE WATCHING

Stay to the white, pass on the right,
Don't shine your light in a shelter at night...
The avery cows are watching...

Don't excite a pigeon in flight,
Don't stop for sight where mosquitos bite...
The avery cows are watching...

Evade detection of you cellular connection,
Concealed in your bivy, speak while in the privy...
The avery cows are watching...

Be part of the quota and register often.
Pay no heed to Avery who spins in his coffin.
The avery cows are watching

Avoid packin' umbrellas, fine ladies, good fellas...
When turned inside-out, they'll provide you no clout!
the avery cows are watching.

Beware of cow pies that your footware might snag
They may be radio monitors in drag
the avery cows are watching.

The one with the bell, is the one that will tell,
if you hike during the night, or do all the white!
the avery cows are watching.

Spurn GPS, taste watercress,
Heaven forbid if you hike in a dress . . .
the avery cows are watching

Visit the king who sits in the Center
He says who must leave and who may enter.
the avery cows are watching

Bovine avery monitors..Only in Hot Springs they'll be seen
Praise the hoof_in_ mouth quarantine
the avery cows are watching

Stop in at the Center, we'll tattoo your head
Or implant a chip if you'd like that instead.
the avery cows are watching

TJ did warn us, right from the start.
It's sheep that are dumb, cows are too smart
To clutter their hike by watching the rest.
They just make their hike into one of the best.
Keep your eyes peeled for those subjects of loathing.
Some cows may be sheep dressed up in cow clothing......

the Avery sheep are watching.....

Boy, that one takes me back! Wee at The Center, indeed...

MOWGLI
03-09-2005, 09:02
: 2,000 miler is for those who pass every foot of the AT.

OK, so does that mean that if you walk to a shelter taking one loop, and leave using another, you don't get the certificate?

Lone Wolf
03-09-2005, 09:12
The Cobbler does not like Whiteblaze forums. He's crying over on Wingfoot's site. He says, "Many of them sound like a bunch of know nothing jerks who hate pristine wilderness, the AT, the ATC, and even long distance backpacking." and " They love the idea of yellow-blazing, trail catering, lying and being jerks in town." and "P.S. Don't waste your time on Whiteblaze".
Such a disgruntled boy. :D

MOWGLI
03-09-2005, 09:23
The Cobbler does not like Whiteblaze forums. He's crying over on Wingfoot's site. He says, "Many of them sound like a bunch of know nothing jerks who hate pristine wilderness, the AT, the ATC, and even long distance backpacking." and " They love the idea of yellow-blazing, trail catering, lying and being jerks in town." and "P.S. Don't waste your time on Whiteblaze".
Such a disgruntled boy. :D

How disingenuous of him.

I have to go now. I'm finishing up my business plan for a trail catering business. What do you think of bagels & lox with coffee & OJ served at shelters while you sit in your sleeping bag?

Sounds like a whiner, er, I mean winner. :D

Sly
03-09-2005, 10:01
Yeah, I see how the Cobbler is only an internet purist. About 1700 miles short of lecturing anyone.

weary
03-09-2005, 10:32
OK, so does that mean that if you walk to a shelter taking one loop, and leave using another, you don't get the certificate?
This whole thread is based on the rather sloppy guidelines that ATC has posted for qualifying for a 2,000 miler patch, and the equally sloppy way they are administered. The last time I looked the guidelines say one has to walk "every mile" of the trail, except to avoid dangerous flooding, stream crossings and other hazards.

However, as near as I can tell, everyone who asks for a patch gets one regardless of what they tell ATC.

It could be made simpler and clearer if ATC simply said that loop blue blazes in and out of shelters clearly are part of the trail. I would also add loop blue blazes to scenic outlooks and other trail attractions, providing the loop is longer or more difficult than the white blazed trail.

And I would scratch the words, "every mile" and replace it "all" the trail, or "the entire" trail. I don't have a clue to what "every mile" adds to the definition; does it mean all of every mile, at least part of every mile, or what?

However, ATC obviously doesn't really care. It just wants your name and address and financial support. My advice remains, just tell the truth and your white blaze will be in the return mail.

As for the philosophical question, there is no "right way" or "pure" way to hike the AT. It's a marvelous network of trails, that stretch 2,000 plus miles. Hike them anyway that suits your fancy. That's what I did. I took whatever parallel trail that struck me as most interesting. And I especially took the scenic blue-blazed loops built especially by the maintaining clubs to augment the hiker experience. To do other wise would have struck me as at least impolite, and would have caused a diminshed trail experience.

And yes, when all these extra loops and side excursions, along with a gouty toe and a massively tender nerve in my thigh and torso, caused too many delays, I bypassed southern New England in order to walk Maine and climb Katahdin for the umpteenth time before winter struck.

And also yes, I prefer the expression "bypassed southern New England" to "yellow blazing," though nitpickers might say they mean the same thing.

Weary

SGT Rock
03-09-2005, 10:48
So to the purists, if I thru-hike but take a few blue-blazes and side trails instead of the main trail, and they still give me a certificate when I actually tell them that, does this mean I am a liar? If it doesn't mean that, and they still give me the certificate and patch, then why all the name calling to people that do take the occasional blue blaze?

Youngblood
03-09-2005, 10:54
Thanks Weary, but there has been a very specific, relevent question asked to a person that claims that other folks are lying about 2000 Miler status and I would also like to see Cobbler's answer... he's the one talking about integrity, liars and stated "We all know what hiking the AT from End to End means."

Youngblood

SGT Rock
03-09-2005, 11:37
The Cobbler does not like Whiteblaze forums. He's crying over on Wingfoot's site. He says, "Many of them sound like a bunch of know nothing jerks who hate pristine wilderness, the AT, the ATC, and even long distance backpacking." and " They love the idea of yellow-blazing, trail catering, lying and being jerks in town." and "P.S. Don't waste your time on Whiteblaze".
Such a disgruntled boy. :D

My guess, knowing Wingfoot's policy about mentioning other forums, is the post will be deleted.

Mags
03-09-2005, 11:42
It could be made simpler and clearer if ATC simply said that loop blue blazes in and out of shelters clearly are part of the trail. I would also add loop blue blazes to scenic outlooks and other trail attractions, providing the loop is longer or more difficult than the white blazed trail.

Weary

As you said, that is the practice the ATC employs. Just not "offficially. I suspect awarding certificates is at the lower end of importance for ATC concerns.

I look at all long trails as a corridor and not as a single path. Part of the reason why trails are trying to get land..to preserve a corridor...and not just a trail.


If you really care about the AT don't just post on the Internet. Do trail work or work in some other volunteer capacity (I hope my trail work out West gives me some good karma even if it is not on the AT. :D), and donate what you can. The Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust is doing some good work in protecting one of the more remote section of trails: http://www.matlt.org/ There are others as well.

(Internet) Talk is cheap. Far easier to be a voice crying in the electronic wllderness then to actually do something for the AT. the PCT or other wilderness.

Bjorkin
03-09-2005, 14:00
I'd like to say the hikers who complain about blue-blazers not deserving the patch have more than likely completely wasted their time on the AT as they apparently "didn't get it." The trail is a time to let go of pointless petty rules in modern society and allow yourself to stop judging yourself and others. It's ok to not be in control all the time. The trail should be defining you and not you defining the trail or more importantly, ME!

However, by saying that I would not be letting them hike their own hike. So, unless we want to be hypocrites, then we must even let jerks be jerks. That's their hike and they're welcome to it.

Lone Wolf
03-09-2005, 15:18
Sgt. Rock you are correct. The post by Cobbler whining about Whiteblaze was deleted.

Nean
03-09-2005, 15:20
Isn't it Great to be so young and already Know everything !!!

SGT Rock
03-09-2005, 15:53
More like I have been around a while and can predict the future based on past events LOL. :rolleyes:

Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? Seems like there is a line from Bill Murray when he is trying to explain how he knows so much about everyone "Maybe God isn't all knowing, maybe he has just been around a long time" or something to that effect. Though the allusion was sort of apt at this point... :-?

Bjorkin
03-09-2005, 16:10
Isn't it Great to be so young and already Know everything !!!

It isn't much better to be old and to have learned nothing. Wisdom is knowing the difference.

smokymtnsteve
03-09-2005, 16:37
Old folks know more about being young

than young folks know about being old!

TDale
03-09-2005, 16:51
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7636&highlight=quantum+trail

Already, you have walked the trail...and you haven't.

Rocks 'n Roots
03-09-2005, 17:40
Seems like an easy solution is available. There should be 2 certificates, one for a general hike that covered a long season hike and another for those who seek notice for staying on the entire Trail.

I like the idea of doing the Trail justice and doing the whole thing. But I can also understand people who wander side trails or different routes for their Appalachian experience.

I still think those who ridicule purists are much more aggressive than those who simply profess the need to actually have hiked the entire Trail to deserve the certificate. That doesn't mean yellow-blazers can't have a good wilderness experience too...

But this "You MUST practice HYOH or be subject to ridicule and ostracization" is crap...

Bjorkin
03-09-2005, 18:07
I think what most people miss is the SPIRIT of the ATC rules. How about some perspective? Just because you can argue semantics it doesn't disallow the spirit of the original purpose.

The rules may read technically that you have to walk each step of the white blazed AT, BUT in the SPIRIT of the rules, I'm pretty sure they meant starting in GA and ending in ME. This seems obvious since the ATC awards the patch regardless of how you do it.

Nean
03-09-2005, 20:29
When I was 18 I thought my Dad was the dumbest guy in the world; by the time I turned 30 I was amazed by how much he had learned. Ahhh, wisdom!

jmaclennan
03-09-2005, 21:24
it's amazing that as much as we all have in common (relative to the rest of society) we still find a way to create divisions amongst ourselves.

Nean
03-09-2005, 21:51
Would it not solve A LOT of heartache,etc,etc if there were no certificates at all? What would we do with ourselves?

smokymtnsteve
03-09-2005, 21:54
Would it not solve A LOT of heartache,etc,etc if there were no certificates at all? What would we do with ourselves?




Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

max patch
03-09-2005, 22:02
American Girls and American Guys
We’ll always stand up and salute
We’ll always recognize
When we see Old Glory Flying
There’s a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head

My daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Until the day that he died
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love
Has fallen under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flyin’ in
From somewhere in the back
Soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man, we lit up your world
Like the 4th of July

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shakin’ her fist
And the eagle will fly
Man, it’s gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringin’ her bell
And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue

Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And you’ll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
`Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
It`s the American way

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shakin’ her fist
And the eagle will fly
Man, it’s gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringin’ her bell
And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue

Nean
03-09-2005, 22:33
So, Imagine there are no certificates, living life in peace- is not an option?Not the first time I've been called a dreamer and now that john is gone, perhaps the only one? Man that could be my first thread- Should the ATC abandon those mighty certificates of truth and justice! cue: God Bless America

The Cobbler
03-10-2005, 01:38
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

AKA- *No Response*

Mountain Dew
03-10-2005, 03:09
Bjorkin, " The trail is a time to let go of pointless petty rules in modern society and allow yourself to stop judging yourself and others. It's ok to not be in control all the time. The trail should be defining you and not you defining the trail or more importantly, ME!" --- If the Trail doesn't define you ( your hike) then why did you follow it from Georgia to Maine on white/blue blazes ? If you have indeed hiked the hike then YES it did define you in your hike. Just because I like to hike all of the white blazes and some blue blazes doesn't make me a jerk does it ? Have you hiked from Georgia to Maine ?

Bjorkin , "However, by saying that I would not be letting them hike their own hike. So, unless we want to be hypocrites, then we must even let jerks be jerks. That's their hike and they're welcome to it."--- If you do believe in HYOH etc. then why make that hypocritical post ? You equate purists with jerks. That is like the "jerks" equating blue blazers with cheaters. Both are short sighted and ignorant. Not all purist care or sit in judgement of people who want to hike blue blazes on their hike from GAME. I know I don't. You hike the way you want but don't go and call me a jerk because of the way i hike, Bjerk.

weary
03-10-2005, 10:42
If you really care about the AT don't just post on the Internet. Do trail work or work in some other volunteer capacity (I hope my trail work out West gives me some good karma even if it is not on the AT. :D), and donate what you can. The Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust is doing some good work in protecting one of the more remote section of trails: http://www.matlt.org/ ....
www.matlt.org now makes it possible to contribute by credit card on line. We are using GROUNDspring.org for the service, mostly because it was the cheapest and is itself a non profit group, supported by several of the largest foundations in the country. If anyone has knowledge of Groundspring that we should know about, let me know.

To contribute, just open www.matlt.org

Unfortunately, when I do that I have to also hit one of the buttons on the left to get to the contribute on line button. I'm trying to get that fixed, but no one else seems to experience it, so it may take some time. You might check that also. Is there a contribute on line button at the bottom of the left hand column of the opening page?

I'm just completing a new packet of fund raising materials, so details are fresh in my mind. We are buying 2,342 acres for $661,000, or a very tough to negotiate price of just $282 an acre. The acreage is evenly divided between Saddleback and Abraham. We have $530,000 in hand. We would like to raise another $370,000 to cover surveying and legal costs and to build an endowment fund for the new properties. Also we need to keep our parttime clerk on board and have funds to keep going for the next major project.

But most critical at this time is the $120,000 needed to pay off our mortgage by October.

All contributions are tax deductible. Your help is truly needed.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
03-10-2005, 12:35
Interesting thread, mostly, except I'm still trying to figure out why Max sent along that cheesy Toby Keith number.

Nothin' wrong with country music, Max, nothin' at all, but next time take a few minutes and send along a decent song instead of that jingoistic rah-rah chest-thumping malarkey.

I've been listening to country a long time, Max. "Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue" is simply not that good a song.

Mags
03-10-2005, 16:07
Interesting thread, mostly, except I'm still trying to figure out why Max sent along that cheesy Toby Keith number.

Nothin' wrong with country music, Max, nothin' at all, but next time take a few minutes and send along a decent song instead of that jingoistic rah-rah chest-thumping malarkey.

I've been listening to country a long time, Max. "Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue" is simply not that good a song.

Yep..gotta listen to some real country. Emmylou Harris one of my favorites. Does not matter what genre you listen to or prefer, she's one of thos people who transcend the genre. When Toby Keith is on Hollywood Squares, Emmylou Harris will still be making wonderful albums.
:)

Footslogger
03-10-2005, 16:40
Yep..gotta listen to some real country. :)==========================================
Well ...we have BOTH kinds of music out here in Wyoming: COUNTRY and WESTERN !!

'Slogger

MOWGLI
03-10-2005, 16:44
Y'all gotta check out Lucinda Williams. She is great! I saw her at Bonnaroo in '03 and Emmylou sang a few songs with her.

TJ aka Teej
03-10-2005, 16:49
TJ did warn us, right from the start.
It's sheep that are dumb, cows are too smart
To clutter their hike by watching the rest.
They just make their hike into one of the best.
Keep your eyes peeled for those subjects of loathing.
Some cows may be sheep dressed up in cow clothing......

the Avery sheep are watching.....
Ah, those were the days... :D
There's nothing wrong with the current ATC honor system for the patch. While it's true that not all who pass every blaze apply for one, and not all who apply have passed every blaze, it's interesting to note that only a few who have hiked past every-single-white-blaze seem to let it bother them. Seems like there are two kinds of Purists, those that want to pass every white blaze, and those that want YOU to pass every white blaze. The Internet seems full of the second kind of Purist. A considerable number of AT hikers finishing at Katahdin do not take the ATC form when it's offered to them by the Ranger - to me that's a very positive message about the honesty of today's hikers. And isn't that really what this thread is all about?

SGT Rock
03-10-2005, 16:54
Ah, those were the days... :D
There's nothing wrong with the current ATC honor system for the patch. While it's true that not all who pass every blaze apply for one, and not all who apply have passed every blaze, it's interesting to note that only a few who have hiked past every-single-white-blaze seem to let it bother them. Seems like there are two kinds of Purists, those that want to pass every white blaze, and those that want YOU to pass every white blaze. The Internet seems full of the second kind of Purist. A considerable number of AT hikers finishing at Katahdin do not take the ATC form when it's offered to them by the Ranger - to me that's a very positive message about the honesty of today's hikers. And isn't that really what this thread is all about?

Great point Teej.

A-Train
03-10-2005, 18:34
going off what Nean said, I think having no certificates or patches would cut down on a lot of this petty complaining and contempt and anger and discrepancy over who white blazed and who blue-blazed.

That being said, that doesn't mean you should "penalize" or take away the opportunity for folks who DID walk the whole trail to be recognized after their hike and be able to have something that does signify that they walked the entire trail.

Rocks 'n Roots
03-10-2005, 23:20
Seems like there are two kinds of Purists, those that want to pass every white blaze, and those that want YOU to pass every white blaze. The Internet seems full of the second kind of Purist.


I think if you checked that out you would find that there's hardly any of the second kind of purist on the internet. Most are HYOH types.


I think if you were honest you would find that the Trail has developed new problems in recent times that are more associated with a weakening of the "rules" than they are with keeping traditions. I think it is pretty accurate to say that the lackadasical HYOH mentality is more conducive to party pack situations than an Earl Shaffer-like solo through-hike approach. This lackadasical casual approach then has the negative side effect of spilling over to the Trail's formal purpose and its backing. Believe it or not, there are parts of the Trail where that uptightness over "pointless petty rules" helps the Trail. For instance I think you can draw a pretty accurate dividing line between HYOH enforcers and those who understand the need for an AT wilderness ethic. Those who scoff at this are usual HYOH "sheep" and do a pretty good "monitoring" job on the net themsleves. As a matter of fact, much more so than any purist sites or their owners.

Honest people would admit this without having to shove HYOH up your nose...

TJ aka Teej
03-10-2005, 23:43
... baa baa baa ... baa baa baa ... baa baa baa ...
More proof cows are smarter than sheep. (Not to mention much more honest.)

Nightwalker
03-10-2005, 23:48
Ah, those were the days... :D
And thanks to Teej for pointing me at that amazing month of posts on the "old" AT-L. There were a couple of really amazing threads going on there. The Avery Cows was just one.

:D

TDale
03-10-2005, 23:51
Is there anyplace I can get a certificate for walking I-95 or A1A from Florida to Maine. It's got to be easier than this.

SGT Rock
03-10-2005, 23:53
With Power Point, you cvan make a certificate that says anthing.

Mountain Dew
03-11-2005, 02:06
Hey Lone Wolf are you paying attention ?


Baltimore Jack, "I've been listening to country a long time, Max. "Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue" is simply not that good a song."--- Toby Keith had the elephant balls to sing that song his way despite his handlers telling him not to. Heck, even that Canadian, socialist, slurred speech talking Peter Jennings tried to sensor the song and got absolutely hammered for it across the nation. I love the song. It reaks of AMERICAN PRIDE and is an in your face style country song.

About the same time Tobey Keith was singing that song , your beloved, Bruce Springstein was bashing America for going to war instead of singing his ONE famous song. Born in the USA would have been very appropriate for him to sing for our troops over in Iraq, but he was busy fund raising for the Mr. Heinz Campaign. Now that I think of it. I bet that one song sold more singles than all of Springsteins singles have put together. Well for that matter I bet That one record by Keith sold albums that all of Springsteins put together. Hell, Tokoma Ted has sold more records than Springstein !!! :dance hahahaa love you too Jack ! hahahaaa

A-Train
03-11-2005, 02:30
Many of the Boss' most popular songs don't correlate with many of his best songs IMO. But I guess that is getting off topic tho. Wait, what is the topic again?

MOWGLI
03-11-2005, 08:08
With Power Point, you cvan make a certificate that says anthing.


Yup, a former colleague took a Corporate Training Class once and received the following Certificate;

...has successfully completed the ISO9002 Qualitity Database Course.

You'd think if someone was going to focus on quality that they could at least spell the word correctly. :D

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 08:21
I figure I can get myself certified in a lot of different things before I retire as long as I have some good cardstock, a color printer, and a few iraqi coins to use to make a seal no one will recognize :D

Maybe I'll start issuing the SGT Rock: "I didn't Snivel on my Thru-Hike" Certificate.

shades of blue
03-11-2005, 08:51
If disagreeing with the President means that you are "Bashing America" then around 49% of our country must hate America. Many people disagree with the policy in Iraq. Maybe, and I stress maybe, things will work out in the end. I hope so. Not ever having been to Iraq, I don't know what the real story is, I doubt you do either. However, the right to protest against something you see as "wrong" is a fundemental right in America, in fact, it is what makes us different than "socialist, slur-speeched people" to paraphrase you. Do you REALLY want to make this another thread on Bush's Iraq policies?

Lilred
03-11-2005, 09:53
I figure I can get myself certified in a lot of different things before I retire as long as I have some good cardstock, a color printer, and a few iraqi coins to use to make a seal no one will recognize :D

Maybe I'll start issuing the SGT Rock: "I didn't Snivel on my Thru-Hike" Certificate.

Now THAT is one certificate I'd be proud to earn!!

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 09:58
Since the ATC gives out a certificate to the purist that hikes the entire AT, I think I'll offer a free certificate to any thru-hiker/2,000 miler that uses my stove. I haven't exactly figured it out yet, but something along the lines of:





I Thru-Hiked the AT without Sniveling

To all ye present be it known that ____________________ has completed the Appalachian Trail in their own style with panache and daring do by doing so without sniveling. They did so by enduring great hardships while enjoying the few pleasures that Murphy allowed to slip through the cracks. Not only did their personal endurance and steadfastness lead them to such a great accomplishment, but the fact that they were smart enough to use a SGT Rock stove in the quest for this endeavor contributed immensely to their success. The fact that a "Piece of the Rock" has carried them through snow, wind, rain, and hunger is a testament to their superior intellect and intuition when it comes to stove related knowledge. Their trail names shall go down in history as those that dared to do what others have only dreamed of...



Given on this ____ day of ______ in the year of our Lord ___________



[original signed]
SGT Rock
No Sniveling!

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 10:01
And maybe something like this somewhere on the page (warning, contains profanity): http://hikinghq.net/images/ShutTheF_Up.jpg

Nean
03-11-2005, 10:16
I've been inspired to write a new song, Brought to you by the Yellow, White and Blue. Maybe the ATC could use color paper to print the appropiate certificate;)

The Old Fhart
03-11-2005, 10:21
"And maybe something like this..."Geez, SGT Rock, I almost had to borrow one of your Depends when I saw that! That is the funniest thing I've seen, even considering some of the recent posts:). Fortunately it only went to tears of laughter, not loss of control of bodily functions. :D

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 10:25
It is funny, but I think it should read "How About a Nice Hot Cup of..."

Mags
03-11-2005, 11:42
H Born in the USA would have been very appropriate for him to sing for our troops over in Iraq,


Er...yes..the song would have been appropriate in a way that most people don't realize. :)

BORN IN THE USA is about a Vietnamn vet. who gets back from war and finds that he no longer has a job. Many people thought it was a "rah,rah" song. Springsteen sang it accoustic on one tour to tone down the "Rah. Rah" aspsect.

Anywho...I don't care if a song is patriotic or not. If it is good music, I love it. Heard gospel
versions of "God Bless America" that were just awesome. Heard Aretha Frankling singing "Star Spangled Banner" on an album (I think) once and it gave me shivers. However, if a patriotic crappy song is crappy..well, then I don't like it.


OK..sorry for getting on a tangent. :)

Mags
03-11-2005, 11:47
Wow..that was great. I want one! :)

Lone Wolf
03-11-2005, 11:47
All Springsteen music sucks. My opinion.

Footslogger
03-11-2005, 11:49
OK..sorry for getting on a tangent. :)===============================
Hey man if you gotta go off on a tangent ...'Retha Franklin is a good one to choose. That "Lady Soul" got me through some tough times during my years of service (1968 - 1971)

'Slogger
AT 2003

A-Train
03-11-2005, 13:26
All Springsteen music sucks. My opinion.

Have you listened to his early stuff? To me it doesn't get any better than The Wild, the innocent and the E Street shuffle album. Particularly the flow of the last 3 tunes is pretty brilliant IMO. Each album became a bit less interesting and more cheesy to me, but I know others disagree.

I think one of the reasons so many people unfairly hate on Bruce is because all they've been exposed to is his popular radio tracks. Many of the bootlegs are dynamite. Check em out.

smokymtnsteve
03-11-2005, 13:40
Oh but ain't that Alaska for you and me
Ain't that Denali somethin' to see baby
Ain't that Alaska home of the free
Little log cabins for you and me

MOWGLI
03-11-2005, 13:44
All Springsteen music sucks. My opinion.

My fave is the Tunnel of Love album. Its filled with raw emotion as his marriage was dissolving at the time.

My favorite Springsteen song is Meeting Across the River. I remember sitting in my friends MGB back in the late 70s - listening to Springsteen live from the Capital Theatre in Passaic, NJ - live on WNEW. Good times!

Alligator
03-11-2005, 13:53
My fave is the Tunnel of Love album. Its filled with raw emotion as his marriage was dissolving at the time.

My favorite Springsteen song is Meeting Across the River. I remember sitting in my friends MGB back in the late 70s - listening to Springsteen live from the Capital Theatre in Passaic, NJ - live on WNEW. Good times!
Don't forget about Scott Muny, A+ DJ. They had recordings of him at the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame.

show me the monkey
03-11-2005, 16:41
All Springsteen music sucks. My opinion.Come on Davey, evryone knows you love everyone from Jersey

ed bell
03-11-2005, 16:54
My fave is the Tunnel of Love album. Its filled with raw emotion as his marriage was dissolving at the time.
I like this one, too. "One Step Up, Two Steps Back" is a classic nothing going right song. I've had some days on the trail like that, but not many. Even those days were better that most work days.

Oh hell, I'm off topic again...Let's see.. Internet Purists........What was the question again?:sun

Lone Wolf
03-11-2005, 17:02
I only love Tom and Vinny. :D

smokymtnsteve
03-11-2005, 17:11
I only love Tom and Vinny. :D

Please LW..we have discusssed this issue before...

KEEP YOUR LOVE LIFE to YOURSELF :cool:

Mountain Dew
03-11-2005, 17:16
Shadesofblue, "Do you REALLY want to make this another thread on Bush's Iraq policies?"--- No, but seems like you desparetly want to. No thanks.

TJ aka Teej
03-11-2005, 17:56
Shadesofblue, "Do you REALLY want to make this another thread on Bush's Iraq policies?"--- No, but seems like you desparetly want to. No thanks.
Dew, if you don't want to rehash Bush and Iraq, why did you post this poorly constructed, factually inaccurate, jingoistic, revisionist tantrum?
Heck, even that Canadian, socialist, slurred speech talking Peter Jennings tried to sensor the song and got absolutely hammered for it across the nation. I love the song. It reaks of AMERICAN PRIDE and is an in your face style country song.

About the same time Tobey Keith was singing that song , your beloved, Bruce Springstein was bashing America for going to war instead of singing his ONE famous song. Born in the USA would have been very appropriate for him to sing for our troops over in Iraq, but he was busy fund raising for the Mr. Heinz Campaign

shades of blue
03-11-2005, 18:15
Thanks TJ,
I couldn't have said it better myself. Dew enough is enough on both sides. Peace.
Shades

Mountain Dew
03-12-2005, 01:39
TJ, "Dew, if you don't want to rehash Bush and Iraq, why did you post this poorly constructed, factually inaccurate, jingoistic, revisionist tantrum?"--- To try to get under one of my best friends skin, Baltimore Jack. My post was directed souly towards him and you'd have to be privy to our friendship to understand that I knew I was being a little liberal with the facts. Do you seriously think that I made those comments up to bring up the war/Bush ? oh brother. Keep the leash on tiger.

SGT Rock
03-12-2005, 01:51
Nice to see folks can agree when to leave a subject alone instead of taking the argument to the Nth degree when it will solve nothing except keeping an argument going for an argument's sake :datz