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flatfeet
09-29-2011, 01:14
The lightness of cuben is astounding. As is the fact that it doesn't stretch
and won't absorb water. But the cost is astronomical. 300+ for a simple tarp?!
And the fact that this stuff tends to break down in the sun.

Is it worth it to spend the money for a few ounces? The eternal question.

So is cuben o ver hyped? Or is it the future?

Thanks.

Kerosene
09-29-2011, 01:26
I love my Cuben tarp (7 oz) and stuff bags (even a Cuben drybag is less than an ounce!). Hey, what else do I have to spend my disposable income on! :rolleyes:

Wombat Farm
09-29-2011, 01:36
hmmmm....I hadn't heard of the stuff. Must get some!
:cool:

Wil
09-29-2011, 01:51
The lightness of cuben is astounding ... it doesn't stretch and won't absorb water. But the cost is astronomical ... stuff tends to break down in the sun ... worth it to spend the money for a few ounces? The eternal question

...over hyped? Or is it the future?The future is death. Cuben is a great deal.

4eyedbuzzard
09-29-2011, 02:20
Most new technologies and materials tend to be over-hyped and over-priced when they first come out. Some catch on, some don't. As all these high tech materials get lighter and lighter at some point durability starts becoming a big issue. Even so, some hikers are willing to accept less in the way of durability to lessen their load by a few ounces. But the race to lower weight is one of diminishing returns. We are approaching some limits with these sub 1 oz/yd fabrics.

Wil
09-29-2011, 02:52
We are approaching some limits with these sub 1 oz/yd fabrics.Robert Heinlein, in a throwaway line in a late 1940s/early 50s SF story, referred to a character heading out into the wild as putting his camping gear into his shirt pocket.

Insulation is air, in small pockets. Both insulation and shelter structural stability could theoretically be achieved by tiny static electrical fields and very little in terms of any actual weight and volume of physical material.

I don't think in terms of limits, or of diminishing returns, with respect to the ingenuity of mankind.

wwbriggs
09-29-2011, 04:11
I really like the stuff myself. I have purchased several stuff sacks big and small to cover my camera and phone, food storage bag, Pack liner, and most recently a tarp/tent setup. I chose to go with the SilNylon Tarp due to the cost weight ratio not being that much different to justify the 2x cost. The BugTent is cuben floor to eliminate a ground cloth, provide more durability, and keep the overall weight down. In the summer I have a poncho/tarp that I will use with the same bugTent setup to get weight down further during foreseeable good weather.

10-K
09-29-2011, 06:39
Over hyped? Maybe

Worth it? Every penny to me

4eyedbuzzard
09-29-2011, 09:41
Robert Heinlein, in a throwaway line in a late 1940s/early 50s SF story, referred to a character heading out into the wild as putting his camping gear into his shirt pocket.

Insulation is air, in small pockets. Both insulation and shelter structural stability could theoretically be achieved by tiny static electrical fields and very little in terms of any actual weight and volume of physical material.

I don't think in terms of limits, or of diminishing returns, with respect to the ingenuity of mankind.
All things are possible in the world of science fiction. And some even come to be. But in the real world, the one you and I currently inhabit, there are economic, engineering, and manufacturing realities. In the example of a tarp, a perfectly serviceable 4 oz/yd 8x10 polyethelene tarp can be had for $5. A similar sized 1.9 oz/yd PU coated nylon tarp can be had for $30. In 1.1 oz/yd silnylon, it is $90. In .5 oz/yd cuben it is in the $250 range.
Given these examples, weights are roughly cut in half as one chooses a lighter material, but costs go up dramatically vs weight, and durability goes down (cuben has not proven to be the most durable stuff). And if and when that scifi electrostatic tent becomes available, at a carried payload weight of .01 oz/sq yd of coverage - I guaranty you it will cost 3 to 5 times more than the .02 oz/yd Ultrarediculouslyhighdensity Buckypolyfullerene tarp that it replaces. And the batteries will NOT be included.

Ender
09-29-2011, 09:53
Personally I think it's totally worth it. And prices have gone down... ZPacks sells cuben tarps starting at $145 (and 3 ounces!). Yes, I'll end up having to replace gear more often, but at least I won't have to replace my knees when I'm older.

skinewmexico
09-29-2011, 09:55
I'm sure durability will go up and cost will go down over time, but's it's still a pretty rare item.Wasn't too long ago that only sails were made of it. Just think how much that was. I know a guy on BPL has been doing some wear/waterproofing tests on it, but I don't recall the results.

Buffalo Skipper
09-29-2011, 10:38
Robert Heinlein, in a throwaway line in a late 1940s/early 50s SF story, referred to a character heading out into the wild as putting his camping gear into his shirt pocket.

Insulation is air, in small pockets. Both insulation and shelter structural stability could theoretically be achieved by tiny static electrical fields and very little in terms of any actual weight and volume of physical material.

I don't think in terms of limits, or of diminishing returns, with respect to the ingenuity of mankind.

If I understand what Wil is saying, it is difficult to imagine what and how we can improve the amazing and lightweight gear we currently have, but isn't that the point? If it was easy to imagine, we would already be trying to make it. Technology improves and eventually this may translate to weight savings, for those who are hyper focused on their gear weight. But until small breakthroughs take place, it is impossible for us to predict where and how improvements will take place.

My brother, who thru hiked in '76 can't comprehend the idea of hiking the AT with less than a 50 lb load (much less the sub-40, -30 or -20 lb loads some are able to achieve). This is partly due to some mental problems he has had, and in a way he is stuck in 1980. But that is really the point Wil is making. Most of us are currently stuck in 2011, and the idea of a 10 lb load with food and water is something we just can't wrap our minds around. Maybe it will be possible. Who knows?

Great comment, Wil. Thanks.

Scratch
09-29-2011, 10:45
Over hyped? Maybe

Worth it? Every penny to me

+1 for me as well.

topshelf
09-29-2011, 11:03
...Hey, what else do I have to spend my disposable income on! :rolleyes:

O how I would love disposable income, I have to do extra side jobs or spend long hours coaching to get my spending money for camping...


So I think yes it's over hyped, I can't justify the price over the benefits. Even with a larger income and disposable money I still don't think I could put down the money. I fought with myself for months and months to get my WB Superfly, and even longer to get Leki poles over my poplar ones. The price would just have to come down, alot, but then I know when I pop something lighter will come out.

Tipi Walter
09-29-2011, 11:12
Robert Heinlein, in a throwaway line in a late 1940s/early 50s SF story, referred to a character heading out into the wild as putting his camping gear into his shirt pocket.

Insulation is air, in small pockets. Both insulation and shelter structural stability could theoretically be achieved by tiny static electrical fields and very little in terms of any actual weight and volume of physical material.

I don't think in terms of limits, or of diminishing returns, with respect to the ingenuity of mankind.

Obviously you've bought into the Man Is Great hysteria. Take a look at a few mountaintop removal pictures in the coal mining chapter on Man's Ingenuity.




My brother, who thru hiked in '76 can't comprehend the idea of hiking the AT with less than a 50 lb load (much less the sub-40, -30 or -20 lb loads some are able to achieve). This is partly due to some mental problems he has had, and in a way he is stuck in 1980. But that is really the point Wil is making. Most of us are currently stuck in 2011, and the idea of a 10 lb load with food and water is something we just can't wrap our minds around. Maybe it will be possible. Who knows?

Great comment, Wil. Thanks.

You mention a 10 lb load with food and water and yet this number is totally bogus and partly irrational since it doesn't qualify how much food is needed. Start a guy out with a base weight of 6 lbs and then add 15 days worth of food and a liter of water and then what number do you have? Your 10 lb number must mean a weekend trip? Two weeks? One night? It's hard to tell.

wcgornto
09-29-2011, 11:24
Obviously you've bought into the Man Is Great hysteria. Take a look at a few mountaintop removal pictures in the coal mining chapter on Man's Ingenuity.

Man's ingenuity and man's destructiveness are not mutually exclusive.

wcgornto
09-29-2011, 11:27
All things are possible in the world of science fiction. And some even come to be. But in the real world, the one you and I currently inhabit, there are economic, engineering, and manufacturing realities. In the example of a tarp, a perfectly serviceable 4 oz/yd 8x10 polyethelene tarp can be had for $5. A similar sized 1.9 oz/yd PU coated nylon tarp can be had for $30. In 1.1 oz/yd silnylon, it is $90. In .5 oz/yd cuben it is in the $250 range.
Given these examples, weights are roughly cut in half as one chooses a lighter material, but costs go up dramatically vs weight, and durability goes down (cuben has not proven to be the most durable stuff). And if and when that scifi electrostatic tent becomes available, at a carried payload weight of .01 oz/sq yd of coverage - I guaranty you it will cost 3 to 5 times more than the .02 oz/yd Ultrarediculouslyhighdensity Buckypolyfullerene tarp that it replaces. And the batteries will NOT be included.


Batteries won't be needed.

4eyedbuzzard
09-29-2011, 11:37
Just some observations:
Most people I knew hiking in the late 70's didn't carry 50 lb packs. I had a Camp Trails Horizon pack (actually, it's still in the basement) that weighed about 4 lbs, a sleeping bag that weighed about 4 lbs, an open cell foam pad with nylon cover that weighed about 2 lbs, a Eureka tent that was 6 lbs, pots/cookware that weighed about 1 1/2 lb, an Optimus stove that weighed about 1 1/2 lbs. 19 lbs base before clothing, food, fuel and water. Low 40 lbs range with food (4 to 5 days) and water was more what I saw, with the exception of situations like the 100 mile Wilderness.

We are now seeing 6 oz tarps at $200+. Next? To cut that weight in half only saves 3 oz, and the cost will likely double to $400+. There is a point at which while the percentage gains in terms of weight reductions are good, the actual weight reduction is very small, and the costs at some point fail to justify manufacturing and/or purchasing the product.

A few ounces saved via Cuben over other fabrics will not save anyone's knees.

Water will still weigh 1 kilogram per liter 1000 years from now.

Where are the flying cars?

mudhead
09-29-2011, 11:41
Wasn't too long ago that only sails were made of it.

And they weren't the junk kind of sails either.

Lyte-w8-hyker
09-29-2011, 12:10
I love cuben, but the cost keeps me from owning more

JAK
09-29-2011, 12:13
The cigars are supposed to be pretty good.

Buffalo Skipper
09-29-2011, 12:21
You mention a 10 lb load with food and water and yet this number is totally bogus and partly irrational since it doesn't qualify how much food is needed. Start a guy out with a base weight of 6 lbs and then add 15 days worth of food and a liter of water and then what number do you have? Your 10 lb number must mean a weekend trip? Two weeks? One night? It's hard to tell.

I am not suggesting anything other than to say that may someday some gear and food will be so light that a 10 lb load for a week may one day be possible. I am not suggesting how or when or even if. I am really insinuating is that we don't know. Even if it is possible, does not mean that everyone will be doing it, or even that they should do it. It was only a made up, imaginary goal which may or may not happen one day.

Remember, Bill Gates suggested back in the 1980s that there should never be any need to have more than 640K of memory. In spite of his incredible vision and success, he was way off base with that one. It is impossible to really know what will be possible in the future.

Odd Man Out
09-29-2011, 12:41
Remember, Bill Gates suggested back in the 1980s that there should never be any need to have more than 640K of memory. In spite of his incredible vision and success, he was way off base with that one. It is impossible to really know what will be possible in the future.

Buffalo - I was just about to send that Gates quote in myself. You beat me to it. I think this is one of those times where everyone is right to some degree. Are there physical and economic barriers to future weight savings - probably. Do we have a history of underestimating progress of the future - sometimes. Do I understand and underestimate the gram weenie's desire to save a gram - certainly not.

BTW, maybe a kg of water may only weigh 111 grams in the future. Maybe we can find a way so we only have to to carry the hydrogen. Let it react with oxygen in the air and use the excess heat to cook instant ramen. Run it through a fuel cell and you can recharge your electronic gear. Even better. Give me a Holideck and I can thru hike with no pack at all. Computer? Water!

Odd Man Out
09-29-2011, 13:06
One other thing. All of the advances in materials discussed (real and imagined), come through chemistry. I find it interesting that chemistry, while being the largest employer of the sciences, and often referred to as "the central science", has the least visibility and the biggest PR problem among the general public. Go to a major book store and browse the science section. There will be a whole book case for dinosaurs, one for evolution, one for physics/cosmology/quantum theory, one for astronomy/earth science/geology, one for molecular biology/genetic engineering, etc... The "chemistry section", if one exists, is probably consists of "The Idiots Guide to Organic Chemistry" and "How to pass the MCAT". Discover Magazine's annual "Top 100 Science Stories of the Year" issue almost never has a chemistry story in it. How many people can name a famous chemist? Chemistry is just off everyone's radar, or if it is on their radar, it is because of something bad. I think that is unfortunate.

Wil
09-29-2011, 13:17
maybe a kg of water may only weigh 111 grams in the futureNow you're getting into the spirit of it!

I say maybe even less. There's already fully-constituted water in the air. And with the equivalent of Herbert's stillsuit (maybe just the digestive waste processing portion worn as shorts) you're not only getting water directly recycled but through methane processing you're getting some of that 111 grams worth of hydrogen. Particularly from freeze-dried food! And of course if you're traveling near swamps or marshes there's lots of hydrogen around to be captured. Maybe even just from forest decay, I'm not sure what kind of quantities we're talking about there over the course of a day's hike.

BTW in terms of visionaries totally blowing it (and to maintain a Microsoft/Apple balance), Steve Jobs once threw a floppy disk at [it may even have been Hertzfeld] screaming "This is all the networking you'll ever need!"

scope
09-29-2011, 14:00
If it doesn't cool my beer, it isn't worth it!

sbhikes
09-29-2011, 14:28
I don't own anything made of cuben fiber. The backcountry is still wonderful.

That's not to say that I don't want to own anything made of cuben fiber. I just don't have any yet.

Del Q
09-29-2011, 19:39
So far I am a big fan

www.hyperlitemountaingear.com

Killer new pack, was amazingly comfortable, lightweight, really tough, carried 30 lbs effortlessly, nothing got even damp inside on recent hike in NH. They also have a pretty interesting tent setup that I am considering.

Cuben fiber is good in my book...........

Tipi Walter
09-29-2011, 19:47
So far I am a big fan

www.hyperlitemountaingear.com (http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com)

Killer new pack, was amazingly comfortable, lightweight, really tough, carried 30 lbs effortlessly, nothing got even damp inside on recent hike in NH. They also have a pretty interesting tent setup that I am considering.

Cuben fiber is good in my book...........

Surely it must have some drawbacks? Poor abrasion qualities? Easy to poke holes in with thorns or briars? Not to mention the expense.

upstream
10-04-2011, 08:17
Deja Vu... I remember a very similar conversation about paper, slide rules, mechanical calculators, electronic calculators, and computers back when a pocket calculator cost $800.
The early adopters will pay for the development it will take to get the technology to the rest of us. Thank you. This cycle will continue as long as there are backpackers, sailors, and other outdoorsmen.
Oh, and I'm still rofl about Wil's last post.

rsmout
10-04-2011, 13:50
Was Goretex overhyped? Still is, perhaps. Ski bums will swear by it (and pay for it), but it doesn't work that well for the trail. Like Goretex, cuben will have its high priests and priestesses, but many of us on the trail have this thing called a price/performance curve that we have to live with. Shame on us.

Sugarfoot
10-05-2011, 16:42
I have a Light Heart Solo tent now, the silnylon model, and want to upgrade to Cuben Fiber before I thru-hike. The new tent is pricey and offers the option of a silnylon floor or for another $100 a Cuben floor. I emailed Judy Gross of Light Heart to learn the pros and cons (other than cost). When she told me that Cuben Fiber is not slippery like silnylon, that sold me! I am so tired of ending up hunched against the side of the tent or against my pack if the tent is not absolutely level, even with squigglies of Silnet on the floor! Yeh, the tent is a little pricey, but what a bargain to have a home for 6 months for a fraction of my monthly mortgage payment!

pafarmboy
10-05-2011, 18:12
Yeh, the tent is a little pricey, but what a bargain to have a home for 6 months for a fraction of my monthly mortgage payment!

Exactly. It may be 'twice' the cost, but c'mon.....the 200 extra bucks for cuben is about a month's worth of gas in the tank, a few less beers at the bar for a while, a couple less inches on the new flat screen, one less day for the family vacation....take your pick.

Those who've actually used cuben fiber products are the true barometer of whether its over-hyped, not those who just think its overpriced.

Bear Cables
10-05-2011, 18:55
I have a 7x9 cuben fiber tarp and love it! It saves me weight and space in my pack. Worth the money.

GrayBear
10-06-2011, 16:31
I have some bits of kit in cuben. I have a bivy with a cuben floor and love the performance. I started with a cuben stuff sack for my Nunatak quilt about two years ago and have not experienced any deterioration after about 70 nights of camping. I also have a large dry bag for my clothing and a few cuben ditty bags for organization. What I like best is how waterproof the material is and no stretch. Is it over hyped? I think that an easy no. Is it worth it? This is a much more subjective question. I paid more for my custom bivy then most people pay for a tent and have no regrets but then I have not slept in a tent in years.

MuddyWaters
10-06-2011, 22:29
Its very pricey, but can improve the quality of your experience, which is what it is all about.

When looking to lighten up, look at your options for each piece of gear, and figure the $/oz to make it lighter. Once you get to around 8-9lb base weight, you will find it will cost you 15-50 $/oz to reduce weight further.

Thats several hundred dollars per pound, and cuben is what helps you get there.

Lostone
10-07-2011, 09:12
Those who are quibbling about money and material fail to see the possibilities.

Just as Jobs never saw the box that is often referred to by those who believe they are cutting edge, the latest solutions and ideas are out there for those who will open their mind to see them.

So remove your preconceptions, open your mind and try it.

Del Q
10-07-2011, 21:08
Tipi Walter.............apologies for not responding sooner, so far I would say that my cuben fiber pack is pretty tough, as we all know, gear can take a bit of a beating on the AT. So far I am really pleased with my hyperlite mountain gear pack. I have pretty serious orthopedic issues (spine mostly), gear fit is critical to me.

One big difference with this pack, your back is against cuben fiber not the mesh material on most pack which gets soaked with sweat, wet from rain, stinks after a while. Not the case at all with this pack, another nice plus.

Yes, gear can get really pricey! Definite balancing act plus new better gear is always coming out.

ed short
10-08-2011, 00:35
hammoclk, pac, sacs, chaps, water carrier, tarp, all C DIY, easy to work with, all glued not sewed, (pac is therefore by definition water (proof?) or at least pretty tight,(I have a hi collar on the pac and just tie an overhand knot in the top) hot toooo expensive if DIY. I a, pretty old and weak so ever oz saved means another mile I can hike. gnome

Cloudynesz
10-18-2011, 01:01
I love cuben, the price wouldn't be so high if you order the fabric and make the tarp yourself.

leaftye
10-18-2011, 01:29
Cuben is great material, but I don't feel it's suitable for everyone and every purpose. For example, I don't think cuben fiber is a fabric I should use in a pack. I like to use my pack as a backrest against boulders during breaks. I doubt a cuben fiber pack would last long with this treatment, and this is a practice I won't stop since breaks are very important to me. I do have a cuben fiber quilt too, but again it's not the best material all the time, but is the best material some of the time. It will be my quilt material when I attempt to thru hike again. I'd like to use it for shelters as much as possible, except for the floor. Cuben hybrid fabric may make this material suitable for much more...

Tinker
10-18-2011, 09:27
So far I am a big fan

www.hyperlitemountaingear.com (http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com)

Killer new pack, was amazingly comfortable, lightweight, really tough, carried 30 lbs effortlessly, nothing got even damp inside on recent hike in NH. They also have a pretty interesting tent setup that I am considering.

Cuben fiber is good in my book...........

Thanks for the link.
In my opinion, cuben is limited because it is more prone to punctures than silnylon and isn't as abrasion resistant. Besides its lightness and the fact that it doesn't absorb water, the other thing that appeals to me is that it can be patched with duct tape. Tapes won't stick to silicone treated fabrics. I might get one of the small roll top packs from hyperlite, since it's waterproof.
For now, I'll stick with spinnaker cloth for my ultralight stuff. It's a bit lighter than standard silnylon and doesn't seem to absorb as much water. I have a standard MacCat tarp made for me by Brian at OES which I use in warm weather for my hammock. When I need to replace my 10x12 winter hammock tarp I will probably have it made from spinnaker cloth as well.

FlyPaper
10-18-2011, 11:48
Just some observations:
Most people I knew hiking in the late 70's didn't carry 50 lb packs. I had a Camp Trails Horizon pack (actually, it's still in the basement) that weighed about 4 lbs, a sleeping bag that weighed about 4 lbs, an open cell foam pad with nylon cover that weighed about 2 lbs, a Eureka tent that was 6 lbs, pots/cookware that weighed about 1 1/2 lb, an Optimus stove that weighed about 1 1/2 lbs. 19 lbs base before clothing, food, fuel and water. Low 40 lbs range with food (4 to 5 days) and water was more what I saw, with the exception of situations like the 100 mile Wilderness.

We are now seeing 6 oz tarps at $200+. Next? To cut that weight in half only saves 3 oz, and the cost will likely double to $400+. There is a point at which while the percentage gains in terms of weight reductions are good, the actual weight reduction is very small, and the costs at some point fail to justify manufacturing and/or purchasing the product.

A few ounces saved via Cuben over other fabrics will not save anyone's knees.

Water will still weigh 1 kilogram per liter 1000 years from now.

Where are the flying cars?

Indeed. Regardless of what man may due in the future, we can only choose based on cost/benefit analysis of what is available now. Perhaps we could open a lab in our basement and invent fabrics to take another ounce or two out of our tarps, and not limit ourselves to what others have invented.

If I spent $300 to save a couple of ounces, that dimishes other choices in my life, perhaps choices I haven't even realized yet. I could afford to drop $300 today, but that would mean at some future point I'll have fewer options. For me $300 for a few ounces is not worth it.

Let's face it. Most of us could gain the most by removing a few pounds of lard we carry in our belly fat. And whatever weight we can't get rid of, we can make gains by strengthening the muscles that carry the weight.

kayak karl
10-18-2011, 13:01
If you want to make enemies, try to change something. ~Woodrow Wilson