Caldera Cone vs. Clikstand Alcohol Stove Tests

[hikin_jim]

There's a lot of talk about alcohol stoves and how great they are in terms of being light weight. Alcohol stoves though are super vulnerable to wind. I'm interested in integrated alcohol stove systems where the windscreen and stove are designed to work together. Micky mousing something together hasn't worked well for me.

I thought I'd take a couple of alcohol stoves systems, run them side by side, and see what I might see.

So, this past Saturday, I took a Clikstand and a Caldera Cone over to a friend's for a little stove testing.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ur0V7aJjUOo/Toe6CYSi_5I/AAAAAAAADe0/B_8spbvuYzg/s800/P1080240.JPG

If you're interested in my findings you can read about them on my blog Adventures In Stoving -- Caldera Cone vs. Clikstand Alcohol Stove Tests (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/10/caldera-cone-vs-clikstand-alcohol-stove.html).

HJ

[dla]

The 1st thing you're going to discover is that the Trangia is not "super vunerable" to the wind. Secondly, your test totally misses the point of the Trangia - it stores and it simmers. Lastly, try your test in the cold and see which one will light and boil water.

For me, of high-importance is the "worst-case" factor. I don't normally winter camp, but I have been caught in 20*'ish weather and/or surprise snow fall. I know the Trangia will light and run.

[Spokes]

In all my days thru hiking, I've just never had any major problems with wind while cooking on my cat can stove. I just wrap my tin foil screen a little tighter around the stove. Problem solved.

[hikin_jim]

The 1st thing you're going to discover is that the Trangia is not "super vunerable" to the wind. Secondly, your test totally misses the point of the Trangia - it stores and it simmers. Lastly, try your test in the cold and see which one will light and boil water.

For me, of high-importance is the "worst-case" factor. I don't normally winter camp, but I have been caught in 20*'ish weather and/or surprise snow fall. I know the Trangia will light and run.
You're absolutely right. I tried to cover the greater functionality of the Trangia in the General Observations and Concluding Remarks. Should I say more in those two sections?

I'd say the Clikstand + Trangia has several advantages over the Caldera Cone:
1. The Clikstand + Trangia is far stronger and will take a lot of abuse.
2. The Clikstand + Trangia is far more flexible -- you can do "real" cooking, including some very nice low flame simmering.
3. The Clikstand + Trangia can be used with a wider variety of pots, pans and kettles whereas the each Caldera Cone is made to fit only one particular pot. If you want to use a different pot with a Caldera Cone, you generally have to buy another cone.
4. The Clikstand + Trangia can hold fuel internally. If you have fuel left over after a burn, simply screw on the lid. There is no need to try to extract the fuel.

The Caldera Cone does have one significant advantage over the Clikstand + Trangia: weight. The Clikstand + Trangia weighs about 5X more than a Caldera Cone.

I have both. Depending one what type of hiking I'm doing (miles, time of year, menu, etc, etc.), I'll take one or the other.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

In all my days thru hiking, I've just never had any major problems with wind while cooking on my cat can stove. I just wrap my tin foil screen a little tighter around the stove. Problem solved. Sounds like it's working for you, then. I've had some problems when just jury rigging stuff together. My cat can stove had a fairly wide flame pattern and would send flames up the side of my 780ml pot -- which resulted in wasted heat. I've found the Clikstand and the Caldera Cone to both be pretty good about retaining the heat.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

Some stats for those who may be interested:

Clikstand with Trangia Burner
Clikstand S-2: 94g/3.3oz
Windscreen S-2: 37g/1.3oz (note: In my testing I used a BPL Ti windscreen, 25g/0.9oz)
Trangia Burner: 67g/2.4oz
Trangia Burner Lid: 21g/0.7 oz
Trangia Burner Simmer Ring: 23g/0.8oz
Total Trangia Burner Weight: 112g/4.0oz
Grand Total: The Clikstand with Trangia burner set up is 242g/8.5 oz total, including windscreen, burner lid, and simmer ring.

Note: The above weights are taken from the Clikstand.com website. SNOWGOOSE in Scotland wrote and gave me the actual weights for his Clikstand set up. His weights are a gram or two heavier in several cases. His total weight was 247g/8.7oz.

The Caldera Cone with 10-12 stove
Caldera Cone: 34g/1.2oz
10-12 stove: 16g/0.6oz
Grand Total: The Caldera Cone with 10-12 stove is 50g/1.75 oz

Note: The above weights are actual weights. The weight of a particular cone may vary depending on what type of pot it is designed for, the type of cone, and the material from which the cone is made (Ti or Al).

The Clikstand with Trangia burner is approximately five times heavier than the Caldera Cone with 10-12 stove. As noted above, weight is not the only issue where cooking is concerned, but for those who are interested, those are the stats.

HJ

[dla]

I've never used the clikstand. That said, it appears to be a robust design. But I wonder about a couple things: (1) The pot height above the burner seems too short. 1.75" is about perfect. (2) The stand will conduct heat back into the burner body - great when it is 0*F, not so great when it is 80*F as it will boil off more fuel than it can burn.

I agree that on a weight basis the Trangia is heavy. And I also agree that there are better single purpose burner designs when you just want to get some water boiling. I'm not knocking any of the uber-lightweight burners - there is some very clever work in them.

I wished more folks started with Alky stoves instead of discovering them after they already spent $100+ on a fireball special. I know it took me a few years to discover the Trangia.

Here is my setup: My Trangia Setup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHYLXp562-Y)

[Hosaphone]

If you're interested in my findings you can read about them on my blog Adventures In Stoving -- Caldera Cone vs. Clikstand Alcohol Stove Tests (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/10/caldera-cone-vs-clikstand-alcohol-stove.html).

Where did you find the stuff sack in this picture? I haven't been able to find one that fits just right... I have a 900ml pot so should be about the same.

14045

[hikin_jim]

Where did you find the stuff sack in this picture? I haven't been able to find one that fits just right... I have a 900ml pot so should be about the same.

14045
Oh, dear. I'll tell you, but I'm afraid it won't be much help: It's off my old First Need water filter. I just happened to save it, an it was the perfect size for the cone rolled up inside the Ziploc nested in my 850ml pot.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

I've never used the clikstand. That said, it appears to be a robust design. But I wonder about a couple things: (1) The pot height above the burner seems too short. 1.75" is about perfect. (2) The stand will conduct heat back into the burner body - great when it is 0*F, not so great when it is 80*F as it will boil off more fuel than it can burn.

I agree that on a weight basis the Trangia is heavy. And I also agree that there are better single purpose burner designs when you just want to get some water boiling. I'm not knocking any of the uber-lightweight burners - there is some very clever work in them.

I wished more folks started with Alky stoves instead of discovering them after they already spent $100+ on a fireball special. I know it took me a few years to discover the Trangia.

Here is my setup: My Trangia Setup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHYLXp562-Y)Your set up seems very well made, and it seems like it works well. My compliments on the workmanship. You've got the holes placed well on the windscreen so that cool air will be drawn in and flow up the sides of whatever pot you're cooking on.

The Clikstand is very solid and sits well on rough ground. I'm not sure about the pot height above the burner. I'll have to check that next time I'm out. The Clikstand won't conduct a lot of heat to the burner because of the way that it is shaped and the way that it is vented. That and the material is stainless steel which is a poor conductor of heat. Some heat will be conducted obviously, but not a great deal. I haven't observed any problems with "run away" boiling of the fuel -- problems I have seen with some set ups.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

P.S. Very wise pot choice. ;)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PxzJv6yBGmY/Toe53GjL3qI/AAAAAAAADeo/eOzctYgY4yQ/s800/P1080238.JPG

HJ

[hikin_jim]

I've never used the clikstand. That said, it appears to be a robust design. But I wonder about a couple things: (1) The pot height above the burner seems too short. 1.75" is about perfect...
dla:

I took my Clikstand out this weekend. While I was out, I measured the height of the bottom of the pan from the top of the Trangia burner: 1 3/8", so a little short if indeed 1.75" is the optimum height.

If I get a chance, I'll take a look at my Trangia 27 tonight when I get home. I'm curious now to see what the Trangia's "height above burner" will be. Presumably the manufacturer of the Trangia burner will have a pretty good idea of what the optimum height above the burner is. I suppose optimum height will vary a little bit depending on the set up. One would think that the amount of air flow available to the burner might alter the optimum height a bit.

HJ

[dla]

dla:

I took my Clikstand out this weekend. While I was out, I measured the height of the bottom of the pan from the top of the Trangia burner: 1 3/8", so a little short if indeed 1.75" is the optimum height.

If I get a chance, I'll take a look at my Trangia 27 tonight when I get home. I'm curious now to see what the Trangia's "height above burner" will be. Presumably the manufacturer of the Trangia burner will have a pretty good idea of what the optimum height above the burner is. I suppose optimum height will vary a little bit depending on the set up. One would think that the amount of air flow available to the burner might alter the optimum height a bit.

HJ

The low height is more general purpose. Works better when using the simmer ring and works a little better in the wind. The 1.75" height is optimum for boiling water. I arrived at that distance by simply doing 1 liter boils. BTW, the two best fuels are SLX brand denatured alcohol (~50/50 mix of meth/eth) and/or yellow bottle HEAT.

[hikin_jim]

The low height is more general purpose. Works better when using the simmer ring and works a little better in the wind. The 1.75" height is optimum for boiling water. I arrived at that distance by simply doing 1 liter boils. Ah. Interesting. Thanks for doing all those boils! :) From experience, I know it's a lot of work to get enough boils to really see the patterns. That's interesting that 1.75" is good for speedy boils but a little lower for simmering. That makes sense I guess in that a simmering flame is small and the heat might dissipate more if the pot height were greater.


BTW, the two best fuels are SLX brand denatured alcohol (~50/50 mix of meth/eth) and/or yellow bottle HEAT.Definitely not red HEET!

What were you emphasizing? Speed? Lack of soot? (clean burning) Minimum required for a boil? Cost? Pure ethanol is supposed to be great, but good luck on getting it, and it's expensive if you can get it.

HJ

[dla]

Methanol vaporizes more easily than Ethanol, so a stove running yellow bottle HEAT is easier to light and faster to warm up. There is the Parks brand of denatured alcohol, (sometimes available at Walmarts), that is mostly Ethanol, and I don't think it runs as well as SLX. I played with Iso when I first started and discovered that no backpack stove I'm aware of can get the air/fuel ratio correct to burn clean - it always burns sooty.

The downside to Methanol is (a) it is toxic to your liver and (b) it is more prone to thermal runaway in hot weather.

[hikin_jim]

Methanol vaporizes more easily than Ethanol, so a stove running yellow bottle HEAT is easier to light and faster to warm up. There is the Parks brand of denatured alcohol, (sometimes available at Walmarts), that is mostly Ethanol, and I don't think it runs as well as SLX. I played with Iso when I first started and discovered that no backpack stove I'm aware of can get the air/fuel ratio correct to burn clean - it always burns sooty.

The downside to Methanol is (a) it is toxic to your liver and (b) it is more prone to thermal runaway in hot weather.Ah. Interesting. Thank you for that. Good information.

Sounds like methanol (as in yellow HEET) is a good choice for colder weather whereas ethanol is a better choice for warmer weather.

I sometimes wonder about the toxicity issue, but I think that if methanol is burned in a well ventilated spot, then one should be OK. There's also the issue of skin absorption. I use a flip top squeeze bottle which pours pretty cleanly, so I usually keep the alcohol off my hands. I think that's pretty safe.

Based on our discussion, I've updated the "Alcohol as Stove Fuel (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/08/alcohol-as-stove-fuel.html)" page on my blog. On my blog, I wrote "Runaway thermal feedback" basically occurs when the alcohol gets so hot that it boils really violently and doesn't burn efficiently. Would you say that's a reasonable description of the phenomenon? I basically know what it is, but I don't know if that's a clear way of stating it.

HJ

[dla]

"thermal runaway" to me is when the burner is boiling off more fuel than can be mixed with air and burned. So to me, it mainly an issue of fuel efficiency. However, the Trangia burner can get so hot that it is difficult to snuff out - part of why I don't have the pot stand touching the burner body in my setup. Alcohol burners we use for backpacking are very simple devices, and they can't operate perfectly over all conditions.

Even though gasoline vaporizes down to -45*F, and alcohol stops at ~50*F, dog sled mushers use alky burners to heat dog food water (yellow bottle HEET). I have a video where I light a couple burners that were in the freezer for a couple days frozen in blocks of ice.
Fuel Information (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf)
Alcohol stoves in ice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r68jMBLtuuY)

[Panzer1]

there are so many good backpacking stoves out there that its hard to go wrong. Some are very inexpensive. Really, none are too expensive to afford.

Panzer

[hikin_jim]

there are so many good backpacking stoves out there that its hard to go wrong. Some are very inexpensive. Really, none are too expensive to afford. Yeah, I guess. The Helios Guide and the Brunton All Fuel both retail for $200.00. That's a bit pricey in my book, but I guess affordable to some. I think the new titanium version of the Primus Omnifuel will be in that price range too. A bit rich for my blood.

Optimus 199 stoves have really gone through the roof. I saw one go for over $600 yesterday on eBay!! Yipes.

There are a few stoves I wouldn't give a good recommendation on for most folks, for example some of the cheap gas and liquid fuel stoves coming out of China that you can get on eBay. I think their safety is seriously questionable. Caveat emptor!

HJ

[hikin_jim]

"thermal runaway" to me is when the burner is boiling off more fuel than can be mixed with air and burned. So to me, it mainly an issue of fuel efficiency. However, the Trangia burner can get so hot that it is difficult to snuff out - part of why I don't have the pot stand touching the burner body in my setup. Alcohol burners we use for backpacking are very simple devices, and they can't operate perfectly over all conditions.

Even though gasoline vaporizes down to -45*F, and alcohol stops at ~50*F, dog sled mushers use alky burners to heat dog food water (yellow bottle HEET). I have a video where I light a couple burners that were in the freezer for a couple days frozen in blocks of ice.
Fuel Information (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf)
Alcohol stoves in ice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r68jMBLtuuY)

Interesting stove video. :) I guess the larger thermal mass of the military type burner made it harder to light? Incidentally, I've always wondered why they made those military burners so big. I've got one, and they're much larger than a civilian Trangia burner.

I can understand using an alcohol stove when the days are generally above freezing but it dips down below freezing at night, but It's hard for me to imagine using alcohol stoves in really cold weather. I don't see the advantage there. I think for really cold weather, especially for snow melting, I want a high BTU stove. High BTU stoves are pretty much petroleum based in terms of their fuel.

Traditionally, mountaineers use white gas or kerosene stoves although some canister gas stoves have pretty good cold weather capabilities. I wonder why dog mushers use alcohol stoves. Maybe because they're cheap and simple and all the musher needs is maybe to make the dog food edible? No fancy cooking required.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

"thermal runaway" to me is when the burner is boiling off more fuel than can be mixed with air and burned. So to me, it mainly an issue of fuel efficiency. Oh, and thanks for the definition. I think your definition is clearer than mine.

HJ