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hungryhowie
03-02-2005, 10:27
Before last night, the coldest temperature I've been able to take in a hammock was about 45*F. Any colder than this and I'd have to abandon camp at about 4:00am for the house (I sleep out most nights, it's more peaceful).

How did I get from 45 to 28? Good question.

Here's the system that kept me barely comfy at 45*F:
hammock: Hennessy Ultralight Backpacker pre-asym
under insulation: two Z-rest pads
over insulation: 30*F bag or quilt (I used different bags on different nights).
worn: jeans, Tshirt and Polo, Moonstone Cirrus pullover, fleece watch cap

Occasionally, I'd get the urge to rig an underquilt from an existing bag, but it doesn't work so well on a Hennessy without the proper tieouts.

Here's the system that I used last night, and that kept me warm at 28*F:
hammock: homemade 8 feet long speer-style hammock
Under/Over insulation: Marmot Never Summer 0*F bag.
worn: jeans, Tshirt and Polo, Moonstone Cirrus pullover, fleece watch cap.

Without an integral bug net, I was able to zip the sleeping bag around the outside of the hammock, and while it was a little tight, I was definately warm...Too warm, in fact, at some points. I suppose you could say that I cheated a little, but since the sleeping bag only went up to my chest, I laid on top of a down jacket, which also insulated my neck and sides of my face. Still, not too shabby for 4.25 pounds.

I figure with a little DIY ingenuity, I can get the weight down some.

The best news of all, though, is that I don't think I hit near the bottom of this setup's comfort temp. Sure, it's a 0*F bag, but in a hammock, I think it might keep me warm into the teens, or perhaps the single digits.

thought I'd share.

-howie

Frosty
03-02-2005, 10:36
To me, if this is typrical, it is not a ringing endorsement of hammocking. If a 30* bag won't keep you comfortable at 45*, and it takes a 0* bag to keep ou warm at 28*, something is wrong, IMO.

Elsewhere there is a discussion of warmth in bags, and one topic was wearing jeans/cotton T-shirts. Perhaps you'd be warmer w/o the jeans?

ocourse
03-02-2005, 12:34
consider that with a hammock you have a dry, lump-free, comfortable nest that you can string up almost anywhere!

Bjorkin
03-02-2005, 13:08
Getting a hammock properly set up for each individual owner/user is a little different than buying a tent and throwing in a pad and bag.

When you come out of the other side of designing a custom sleep system with a hammock you will sleep 10x better than in a tent. It's a bit more trouble in the beginning because of the learning curve, but so worth the time and trouble.

The main temp difference is that you lose more heat thru compression of anything underneath you to a breeze in a hammock than you do with the ground in a tent. But, if you can solve that temp loss in the hammock you'll have the last laugh. Not to mention it has a self contained fly which allows you to work under cover as soon as the two hammock ends are fastened around 2 trees.

When you're finished designing your custom sleep system, you seal the whole customized rig, sans sleeping bag, in a silnylon tube and can rig camp quicker than Spiderman can spin his own! What's not to love? :datz

peter_pan
03-02-2005, 13:13
There are under quilts with slits that match the HH slit and are good to 30 at 20 oz out there....look around.

For the doubting crowd, sub 4.5 pound, 3 season rigs (hammock W/ bug protection,tarp, two quilts, and two pegs) and sub 6 pound, 4 season rigs to the teens, are solutions that beat most comparative season ultralight rigs (bag,pad,tarp and ground sheet,pegs). They easily beat the tenting options on seasonal parallels.

....oh yea....hammocks are way more comfortable!

hungryhowie
03-02-2005, 14:45
To me, if this is typrical, it is not a ringing endorsement of hammocking. If a 30* bag won't keep you comfortable at 45*, and it takes a 0* bag to keep ou warm at 28*, something is wrong, IMO.

Elsewhere there is a discussion of warmth in bags, and one topic was wearing jeans/cotton T-shirts. Perhaps you'd be warmer w/o the jeans?

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. The challenge is not about staying warm from above, it's about staying warm from below. With the first setup, I was using Zrest pads (2 of them to make it wide enough because the hammock wraps up your sides) on the bottom. At 45*F I was cold from below, but fine on top. I could easily have gone to 25-30 on top (because I routinely use the same bags to those temps on the ground).

With the second setup, I was surrounded on all sides by 3" of loft. And I wrote that I was warm at 28, not just alive at 28, and could probably take it into the single digits. The reason I say that it might not go all the way to zero as it is, is because the sleeping bag doesn't actually go up past my chest/shoulders, so I get very little insulation up there.

When I make my final system, I have no doubt that I will have a 4 season system, good to 0*F, weighing less than 4 pounds. This includes the hammock, suspension, tarp, insulation, and skins to deploy or wrap it up in a minute or less.

The hammock I made yesterday afternoon weighs 10oz including the suspension system. I plan to make the next one one foot narrower, so that will reduce the hammock with ropes and tree huggers to ~8.5oz. Throw in my tarp (8oz with guy line and stakes) and I'm at a whopping one pound.

For three seaons, I'll add a 5 ounce bug netting enclosure and a 30*F quilt system weighing about 30oz. So for three seasons, that's a total of ~52oz, or 3.25 pounds

If it's going to be colder, however, I'll leave the bug net home in lieu of my cacoon, which adds about 10*F of warmth and weighs 8oz instead of 5oz. Then I'll opt for a 0*F quilt system, which should weigh in the neighborhood of 36oz, which brings me to a 4 season total of ~58oz, or 3.6 pounds, or to be safe (since I haven't made some of these things yet, 3.75 pounds).

Less than 4 pounds for 3 of the big 4? Seems pretty good to me. For that kind of weight, I could carry a pack that weighed less than a pound, which would just barely shove me over the 4 pound mark for all big 4 items. That is so much more efficient than ground sleeping...and so much more comfortable.

-howie

tlbj6142
03-02-2005, 16:07
The hammock I made yesterday afternoon weighs 10oz including the suspension system. I plan to make the next one one foot narrower.Aren't you worried about shoulder squeeze? Everytime I see someone in a Speer-like hammock I wonder how "tight" it is at the shoulders?

Have you discussed the specifics of your hammock eleswhere? Material? Strapping material? Did you buy Ed's book?

titanium_hiker
03-02-2005, 17:45
shoulder squeeze? non existent. I sleep on a diagonal (which is reccomended by many experts such as flyfisher and SGT rock) which means that there is no squeeze, just the hammock nicely holding me. If I lie straight, then there is a squeeze.

titanium_hiker

titanium_hiker
03-02-2005, 17:46
Has anyone noticed that they can't post more than a couple of lines? To clarify, I am using a homemade speertype that is between 1 and 1.5 metres wide.

SGT Rock
03-02-2005, 21:22
Last night (this morning) I went to bed at 0345, and my digital thermometer read 27.5 F and there was frost on almost everything. I was using my Hungry Howie Quilt, a JRB No-Sniveler, and the JRB Weather Shield. I was a little cold around the shoulders so I got out and adjusted the suspension system and then it was just right. I was only wearing light polypro long underwear and wool socks.

That JRB stuff for the bottom works, and the Hungry Howie quilt is working. The only issue so far is I can't get that top buckle done once I get in the quilt Howie? Any tricks I'm not thinking of?

smokymtnsteve
03-02-2005, 21:44
Last night when I went to sleep the thermometer outside in the dog yard said -15 so I brought in some extra wood for the woodstove ;)

it had warmed up to -8 this morning when I went back out to make breakfast for the gang.

tlbj6142
03-02-2005, 22:08
That JRB stuff for the bottom works, and the Hungry Howie quilt is working. The only issue so far is I can't get that top buckle done once I get in the quilt Howie? Any tricks I'm not thinking of?What buckle? On the HH Quilt?

SGT Rock
03-02-2005, 23:31
What buckle? On the HH Quilt?


I have one of Hungry Howie's newest quilt versions. It is similar to the Nunatak Arc Alpinist in that it has a couple of straps that go under you to hold the quilt in the best position for sleeping with it. I can get the bottom one on OK, and the Velcro tab at the neck is easy, but I am feel like a contortionist trying to get the top strap buckled in.

hungryhowie
03-03-2005, 09:16
Aren't you worried about shoulder squeeze? Everytime I see someone in a Speer-like hammock I wonder how "tight" it is at the shoulders?

Nope. Hammocks are quite comfortable as far as I'm concerned. Sleeping in a hammock enclosed in a mummy bag is a bit tight, but I"m planning on making my over/under quilt wider than a standard mummy bag.



Have you discussed the specifics of your hammock eleswhere? Material? Strapping material? Did you buy Ed's book?

I've been active on the yahoo hammockcamping group lately. I'm using 1.1oz ripstop nylon for the hammock right now, but will probably make one out of 8mm silk soon. I prefer a mix of the different hammock systems out there. For example, I prefer Hennessy's concept of treehuggers, rope as a suspension line, snake skins, integral tarp attachments, ridgeline, and ratio of ridgeline length to that of the hammock bed, but Speer’s concept of a shorter length hammock bed and accordion method of gathering the end fabric. I prefer Mirage's concept of how to attach bug netting, while I am also intrigued by Gardenville's use of silk. :-?

I'm a mess :)

-howie

hungryhowie
03-03-2005, 09:31
Last night (this morning) I went to bed at 0345, and my digital thermometer read 27.5 F and there was frost on almost everything. I was using my Hungry Howie Quilt, a JRB No-Sniveler, and the JRB Weather Shield. I was a little cold around the shoulders so I got out and adjusted the suspension system and then it was just right. I was only wearing light polypro long underwear and wool socks.

That JRB stuff for the bottom works, and the Hungry Howie quilt is working. The only issue so far is I can't get that top buckle done once I get in the quilt Howie? Any tricks I'm not thinking of?

It's pretty easy to swivel as a ground sleeper to snap that buckle, but I can see how it'd be tough in a hammock.

Is it even necessary at all in a hammock? I rarely use the buckles to begin with, and in a hammock, especially with a large underquilt surrounding you, it doesn't seem like it would really be too important.

Do you think velcro would be better? If you wanted to ditch the buckles, I'd be hesitant to rip open the seam to get the entire thing out...that grosgrain is prettywell reinforced and it might destroy the fabric to rip that open. I've never tested a seam ripper on the 0.8oz fabric, so I don't know how much it can take.

It'd look slightly more ghetto, but I'd recommend slitting the grosgrain loop holding the female end of the buckle and sandwiching in a piece of velcro. Then on the other end, cutting off most of the grosgrain, replacing it with elastic banding, and sewing the corresponding velcro to the end. It would really be a simple fix if, and, if you decide you want it done, I'll be happy to do it for you, but Mrs. Rock is more than capable to handling that, and it'd save on shipping too (unless you're passing by my house sometime anyway :) )

Whatchya think?

-howie

SGT Rock
03-03-2005, 09:39
Hmmmm....

The Velcro might work, but I think you are right: so far I haven't missed it. I just don't know what it would be like with it on since I haven't tried it, and I suppose that it wouldn't matter in my rig since I am surrounded by the JRB under quilt and your quilt on top. Besides, I don't want to risk tearing up the shell. I do like the neck Velcro tab though, that does do some work for me. A thought though it it would be easier for me in a hammock if the buckle was in the center of the straps instead of on the side since then I could do a modified Parade Rest and reach the buckle with both hands.

tlbj6142
03-03-2005, 11:16
So, HH do you have the instructions online for this "new version" of the HH?


BTW, I have a HH ULA and have used it several times. So, I aware of hammock comfort, but HH do not appear as confining as speer hammocks. Which is why I asked about the shoulder squeeze.

I also made a HH quilt (what is it about the HH abbr?) last fall. I put 2 grosgrain loops long the edges for "future use" and left a hem/sleeve at the neck to run a shock cord through (if desired).

hungryhowie
03-03-2005, 15:29
Hmmmm....

The Velcro might work, but I think you are right: so far I haven't missed it. I just don't know what it would be like with it on since I haven't tried it, and I suppose that it wouldn't matter in my rig since I am surrounded by the JRB under quilt and your quilt on top. Besides, I don't want to risk tearing up the shell. I do like the neck Velcro tab though, that does do some work for me. A thought though it it would be easier for me in a hammock if the buckle was in the center of the straps instead of on the side since then I could do a modified Parade Rest and reach the buckle with both hands.

The cinch at the top is very useful, holding in quite a bit of heat and sealing the top of the quilt against drafts.

Regarding putting the buckle in the center, that's doable, but I would have to find a 0.5" center release buckle with dual adjustments (which I've never been able to find), or put a longer loop on the female side (which has no adjustment capability), which would limit the amount that you can tighten the strap.

-howie

peter_pan
03-03-2005, 15:29
Why are you all messing with straps and buckles at all??? when I tuck my quilt in on the sides, the hammock holds it in place fine...no air leaks....don't see a need for straps unless on the ground...and that is bad.

hungryhowie
03-03-2005, 15:53
(what is it about the HH abbr?)

I dunno. I think I got lost in there somewhere :)

I don't have any instructions online for the new quilt, but I've been working on them. Unfortunately, I'm taking 20hrs of senior-level classes and working a full time job, so it might be a while before I get them finished online.

This is actually the third generation of the design, the second generation didn't do well enough to make the instructions available. But I think, and I hope Rock agrees (at least for the most part :bse ), that I got it right with G3.

The finished product uses ~11.5oz of down, has 2" tall baffles, and weighs 17.7oz.

-howie

hungryhowie
03-03-2005, 15:58
Why are you all messing with straps and buckles at all??? when I tuck my quilt in on the sides, the hammock holds it in place fine...no air leaks....don't see a need for straps unless on the ground...and that is bad.

Actually, I've rarely needed straps, even on the ground. But they've have got to be the number one thing people have asked me to implement in the design over the years, so I put them in. Now the cinch at the top of the quilt? That is useful.

-howie

tlbj6142
03-03-2005, 16:11
That is usefulAgreed. One at the neck would be needed in a hammock or on the ground. The side ones are not really needed in a hammock, unless you flop to your side often. As turning tends to un-do the tuck and roll method.

So, Howie, how are you tieing off the neck hole? Just a velcro patch? For some reason, I think the Arc-quilts use a snap? Or a toggle of some sort at the neck end.

SGT Rock
03-03-2005, 21:39
I tend to agree that the straps are unneeded with a hammock, but I am trying everything out to see what works best.

hungryhowie
03-04-2005, 10:11
Agreed. One at the neck would be needed in a hammock or on the ground. The side ones are not really needed in a hammock, unless you flop to your side often. As turning tends to un-do the tuck and roll method.

So, Howie, how are you tieing off the neck hole? Just a velcro patch? For some reason, I think the Arc-quilts use a snap? Or a toggle of some sort at the neck end.

Yes, 1/4" velcro. I think the Arcs use a snap, but I chose velcro to make it easier to close. 1/16" shock cord runs through a smal tube of fabric and can be tightened or loosened as needed with a mini cord lock. The cordlock is placed off-center to keep the "extra' shock cord from getting in your face.

-howie

SGT Rock
03-04-2005, 10:15
I prefer the Velcro on Howie's quilt over my Nunatack BCB snaps that are on the corners of the BCB.

Something to note about Howie's quilt is it just fits my shoulder width, if I were a little more bulky at the shoulders it might be a little too narrow. I think if you are going to publish the plans, that a set of measurements of small, med, large, and XL might be a good idea based on chest girth/shoulder width.

peter_pan
03-04-2005, 11:04
Howie etal,

Try the snag free velcro..available in sewing stores in 3 ft lengths..pricy about $3.50- 3.99....but sooooo nice....much gentler on you and your gear esp fleece.

In the industry it is known as Omni tape, more reasonable but only available in 25 meter lengths.

pan

hungryhowie
03-04-2005, 18:17
I actually would use it but they make it only in 0.75" width. Even 0.5" would be tempting, but I'd like to see 0.25 for most of my applications.

Thanks for the industry name, however, as I didn't have that before (just knew it as snag-free).

-howie

hungryhowie
03-04-2005, 18:23
I think if you are going to publish the plans, that a set of measurements of small, med, large, and XL might be a good idea based on chest girth/shoulder width.

Interpolating plans into different sizes should be a falrly easy task. What size do you think the quilt you have should be? And what increments do you think are appropriate? I seem to recall LG sleeping bags typically having about a 4 inch difference in girth. Too big? Too small?

-howie

SGT Rock
03-04-2005, 21:50
I think about 2" more might be about right. I think a 4" diff in sizes could be a good average.