Wicking?

[OBXWaMi]

I guess this was my first experience with clothes that wick moisture. Today I wore my new windbreaker for the first time. I had a synthetic tank and a fleece pullover on. Midway through our walk it became too warm for the windbreaker. YUCK!!! As I took my arms out I encountered wetness inside the sleeves of the windbreaker and the sleeves of my fleece were glistening. I pushed my sleeves up and my arms were damp, but with the sleeves down I wasn't cold at all and within a few minutes the fleece was dry.
It's going to take some practice for me to figure out this layering thing.

[JAK]

Yeah. I think wicking can be useful, but is only a small part of layering, and tends to be over-emphasized somewhat.

On long hikes, where you have to carry clothes anyway, on you or in your pack, you don't have to have the optimal layering system on you all the time. In fact, most of the time you should be delayered, because the extra layer will be for the worse conditions, and for when you are camped, both of which make up smaller fractions of time. So you choose an efficient layering system, for when you are less active in the worst conditions, and from there you delayer for when you are more active and/or in better conditions.

The first thing to come off is usually the rain layer and/or wind layer. However, I find it best to hike most of the time without my innermost skin layers. So it doesn't really matter if they wick, if I am not wearing them. It so happens they do wick, but I am more interested in their other qualities. Most of the time I hike in shorts, and loose wool top that breathes well, so it will dry out when take any wind layer or rain layer off, and insulate well when layered up. By hiking in shorts and keeping this top mid-layer on all the time, the extra layers tend to take up less room in the pack.

When the skin layers do go on, it is usually cold enough that they don't need to wick, because I'm not sweating much, but yeah, they do tend to wick, but the main thing is that they do what they are meant to do, depending on whether they are wool, or synthetic. If wool, the thing is to have a capacity for absorbing some moisture, to recover latent heat, and then dry out later when you are more active and less layered. Also to not be smelly. If synthetic the main thing is to be hydro-phobic, so its a bit easier to manage when you are not wearing it, or if you get totally soaked. So I like a mix of wool and synthetic, but most of the time I am not wearing a wicking layer, as such.

[clsvideo]

Is your windbreaker breathable? If it's not, the moisture can't escape after being wicked from your skin. Sounds like what your problem may be.

[Rocketman]

I guess this was my first experience with clothes that wick moisture. Today I wore my new windbreaker for the first time. I had a synthetic tank and a fleece pullover on. Midway through our walk it became too warm for the windbreaker. YUCK!!! As I took my arms out I encountered wetness inside the sleeves of the windbreaker and the sleeves of my fleece were glistening. I pushed my sleeves up and my arms were damp, but with the sleeves down I wasn't cold at all and within a few minutes the fleece was dry.
It's going to take some practice for me to figure out this layering thing.

I bicycle through the winter, and have learned that layering is more than just layers.

As you have learned, but may not completely appreciate, breathing and ventilation are more important than wicking.
Your windbreaker did a fairly nice job of eliminating natural ventilation of your torso. If you had had the windbreaker partly opened, preferable by a two way front zipper, you could have allowed enough ventilation to remove much of the sweat heavy moist air, replacing it with outside air (hopefully not saturated with its own moisture).

For biking, I really like to have (armpit) pit zips in my shell. For me, I ride almost every day in the winter with those ventilating zips pretty open. This keeps the body moisture and humidity down right from the start.

The biggest problem with staying warm while winter bike riding is getting too hot and then trying to cool off and evaporate the condensed sweat from the insulation layers without getting too cold. Take care never to get overly warm, or even toasty warm (depending on your tolerance).

I seek insulation layers that ventilate easily, not requiring removal. Microfiber fleece shirts with a button or snap from allow easy ventilation. Opening up the zippers a little on the windproof shell helps greatly, unless it is -10deg F outside. Wool or acrylic shirts with buttons are also good, but maybe a little heavy if you want maximum warmth. For 40deg F, they are pretty good over wicking underwear.

Wool or acrylic sweaters with buttons and zips are a nice useful layer for insulation.

Much of the time, I use snowboarding parkas (without insulation) as my outer wind/water shell (pit zips). I have experimented with just cutting underarm slits in inexpensive windbreakers with some success. I had some windproof fleece tops and bottoms that I had to cut ventilation slits or holes in to prevent the sweat buildup.

I have also used the waterproof/breathable shell from a 3-in-one parka system (with pit zips) as my outer layer. I could imagine using a roomy waterproof/breathable rain jacket doing as well (with pit zips). Often, that is cheaper.

In summery, the ventilation should have been begun well before your windbreaker and insulation made you too warm.

Yes, you can easily get too warm and then become uncomfortable and maybe wet. Wicking won't stop that, the problem was not enough ventilation.

[OBXWaMi]

I got the windbreaker yesterday (LOVE our Eddie Bauer Outlet's clearance section). The tag said water resistant, windproof, breathable. It doesn't have pit zippers, but it has two little holes like shoestrings go through on shoes in each pit and there is a panel across the back with mesh lining. It is 100% nylon with 100% polyester lining. Oh, and it packs into its own pocket. I got it packed down into a ziploc sandwich bag and it weighs 8.3 oz. Clearance price $20

[JAK]

I second that, that while it is useful that certain layers wick, its most often more a matter of delayering, and controlling ventilation. Wicking is of minor consequence, if you can delayer and ventilate as you should. Wicking is largely a marketing term.

What exactly is wicking? As I see it, it is more a matter of how a fibre and fabric spreads moisture within itself, rather that from one layer to the next. It is useful for allowing a fabric to dry out sooner, and to spread persperation more evenly, but ultimately its varying degrees of ventilation that gets the job done, for the most part.

I think 'wicking' came to the forefront around the same time as 'gortex', and 'polyester fleece'. It's all good in theory, but when you remember you can just take layers off, or open layers up, it doesn't really have to be that technical, as long as you have the right wool and/or synthetic layers, and workable wind and/or rain shells to work with.

Layering is key, and is centuries old. Just don`t forget that delayering is what its essentially all about. You don`t have to have multiple layers on all the time. Most of the time, when active, it should be just one layer, or none, for most of your body, and it doesn`t need to be even coverage. It`s only when you are less active, in the worst conditions, that it makes sense to have all the layers on, with even coverage. Then does wicking really matter, when you can just take a layer off or increase ventilation here or there. Not really. If its a good insulator, it probably wicks anyway.

[clsvideo]

Also, are your wicking layers skin tight? If they are too loose they won't wick either.

[LDog]

Along with delayering, and either taking off or ventilating your shell, become hyper-aware of what your body is doing, and slow down when you start to perspire ...

[Rocketman]

I got the windbreaker yesterday (LOVE our Eddie Bauer Outlet's clearance section). The tag said water resistant, windproof, breathable. It doesn't have pit zippers, but it has two little holes like shoestrings go through on shoes in each pit and there is a panel across the back with mesh lining. It is 100% nylon with 100% polyester lining. Oh, and it packs into its own pocket. I got it packed down into a ziploc sandwich bag and it weighs 8.3 oz. Clearance price $20

Those little underarm holes and the classic mesh panel with a storm flap lying on top of it are classic features that tend to make one believe that the jacket is well vented, when it isn't true that the venting is good. HOw do I know? I fell for that stuff over 30 years ago. So, your hopes for venting performance are personally understood. Those are the kind of jackets I cut pit slits iin or sometimes think about putting in pit zips, but never get enthusiastic enough to look up the instructions on how to do it. People have done it.

You aren't out too much money, so that is a relief.

You might consider becoming a skeptic about the promised miracles of "waterproof and breathable" fabrics.

Some old books you might like are:


"Movin' On: Equipment & Techniques for Winter Hikers" By Harry Roberts (1977)


"Secrets of Warmth for Comfort or Survival" by Hal Weiss (1992)

"The outward Bound Staying Warm in the Outdoors Handbook" by Glenn Randall (2000). A little more up to date than the older one. He gives some personal layering systems in the appendix to the book.

There may be later books, search for the terms on Amazon.com or look these books up and see if Amazon suggests anything else. I have read quite a few tidbits of technique in a variety of books and magazines, and can't remember the sources to tell you.

Good luck in your readings and have a safe and comfortable winter.

[JAK]

It would be nice to see one of those books talk about the different strategies for de-layering, rather than just layering.

[Rocketman]

It would be nice to see one of those books talk about the different strategies for de-layering, rather than just layering.

Yes. In actuality, for many sports, de-layering is a problem. Inconvenient. bicycling, skiing, ......

[LDog]

As it turns out, backpackinglight.com is running an article comparing the new-allegedly-improved fabrics to olde-guard fabrics like Gore-Tex and eVent. The bottom line seems to be that if you plan to walk uphill with one of these jackets on, you best unzip it to ventilate. Some exhaust the internal humidity better than others after the exertion level drops. The best of the bunch at doing that was an eVent jacket. And wind acting on the outside of the jacket helped move moisture out ...

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/waterproof_breathable_technologies_part2


(http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/waterproof_breathable_technologies_part2)

[OBXWaMi]

Also, are your wicking layers skin tight? If they are too loose they won't wick either.

The sleeves on my fleece are pretty snug, they were right against my skin. I had on a tank top so the fleece wasn't against my torso, but it isn't form fitting to begin with. I kept opening and closing the zipper before taking the windbreaker off. The biggest area of wetness was inside the sleeves. I don't think even having pitt openings would have made much difference there. Still, I think I'll try to figure out how to cut the pit areas open and install some velcro and maybe a small strip of mesh. I'm not much for sewing zippers, but maybe I can find someone who is.

[Feral Bill]

From a temperature and moisture control point of view, the best base layer ever (or underwear as we use to call it) were the old cotton, (yes, you read it right, cotton) fish net tee shirts from the sixties and seventies. Add a bit of ventilation, no sweat. Colder, seal things up and all is good. Everyone wore these in northeastern winters successfully, with better climate control than modern wicking fabrics. Combined with a nice hand knit wool sweater they were great, even in far below zero conditions. The down side? A grim waffle effect on shoulders and hips under the straps.

[Rocketman]

I remember those fish net tee shirts well. The ones I got were cotton-polyester, I think. I wore them in the summer too, under a light cotton tee, and the tee shirt was held far enough away from the body that the mosquitoes couldn't get a proper bite.

Wiggy, of Wiggy Sleeping Bags, sells nylon fish net long underwear for the cold. He used to carry a product from Europe, and maybe this is what he is selling today. They come in men's and women's selections in a wide range of sizes and black or white color choices. I just may break down and try them again.

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=35

Not to be confused with the "gothic" trends for fish net garments.

There is an interesting long web page on working outdoors in the cold of Canada.. Canadian Center for Occupational Health and Safety... http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/cold_working.html


Part of the material , as a sample, is : (emphasis added)

Clothing should be worn in multiple layers which provide better protection than a single thick garment. The air between layers of clothing provides better insulation than the clothing itself. Having several layers also gives you the option to open or remove a layer before you get too warm and start sweating or to add a layer when you take a break. It also allows you to accommodate changing temperatures and weather conditions. Successive outer layers should be larger than the inner layer, otherwise the outermost layer will compress the inner layers and will decrease the insulation properties of the clothing.



The inner layer should provide insulation and be able to "wick" moisture away from the skin to help keep it dry. Thermal underwear made from polyesters or polypropylene is suitable for this purpose. "Fishnet" underwear made from polypropylene wicks perspiration away from the skin and is significantly thicker than regular underwear. It also keeps the second layer away from the skin. The open mesh pattern enables the moisture to evaporate and be captured on the next layer away from the skin. The second layer covers the "holes" in the fishnet underwear which contributes to the insulation properties of the clothing.



The additional layers of clothing should provide adequate insulation for the weather conditions under which the work being done. They should also be easy to open or remove before you get too warm to prevent excessive sweating during strenuous activity. Outer jackets should have the means for closing off and opening the waist, neck and wrists to help control how much heat is retained or given off. Some jackets have netted pockets and vents around the trunk and under the arm pits (with zippers or Velcro fasteners) for added ventilation possibilities.

[Feral Bill]

I had no idea these could still be had. Thank you.
I remember those fish net tee shirts well. The ones I got were cotton-polyester, I think. I wore them in the summer too, under a light cotton tee, and the tee shirt was held far enough away from the body that the mosquitoes couldn't get a proper bite.

Wiggy, of Wiggy Sleeping Bags, sells nylon fish net long underwear for the cold. He used to carry a product from Europe, and maybe this is what he is selling today. They come in men's and women's selections in a wide range of sizes and black or white color choices. I just may break down and try them again.

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=35

Not to be confused with the "gothic" trends for fish net garments.

There is an interesting long web page on working outdoors in the cold of Canada.. Canadian Center for Occupational Health and Safety... http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/cold_working.html


Part of the material , as a sample, is : (emphasis added)

Clothing should be worn in multiple layers which provide better protection than a single thick garment. The air between layers of clothing provides better insulation than the clothing itself. Having several layers also gives you the option to open or remove a layer before you get too warm and start sweating or to add a layer when you take a break. It also allows you to accommodate changing temperatures and weather conditions. Successive outer layers should be larger than the inner layer, otherwise the outermost layer will compress the inner layers and will decrease the insulation properties of the clothing.



The inner layer should provide insulation and be able to "wick" moisture away from the skin to help keep it dry. Thermal underwear made from polyesters or polypropylene is suitable for this purpose. "Fishnet" underwear made from polypropylene wicks perspiration away from the skin and is significantly thicker than regular underwear. It also keeps the second layer away from the skin. The open mesh pattern enables the moisture to evaporate and be captured on the next layer away from the skin. The second layer covers the "holes" in the fishnet underwear which contributes to the insulation properties of the clothing.



The additional layers of clothing should provide adequate insulation for the weather conditions under which the work being done. They should also be easy to open or remove before you get too warm to prevent excessive sweating during strenuous activity. Outer jackets should have the means for closing off and opening the waist, neck and wrists to help control how much heat is retained or given off. Some jackets have netted pockets and vents around the trunk and under the arm pits (with zippers or Velcro fasteners) for added ventilation possibilities.