View Full Version : The prejudice we face.
Quote from this thread. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78264-January-Start/page3
I honestly believe this young women should not take on this journey. Although the information being provided for the most part is excellent for a winter hike, encouragement is not responsible IMO.
I've been backpacking, canoeing, spelunking since I was a kid. And I have a 25 year old daughter who has only limited backpacking experience (for the most part she always had other things to do when Dad wanted her to come along).
If she came to me wanting to hike the AT and asking advice I would be ecstatic. I would help her in anyway I could. But if she came to me with the idea of a solo January start I would strongly advise against it. She is an athlete, was captain of her College Swim Team and in excellent shape. She now competes in Triathlons. It still doesn't matter. She does not have the experience to succeed in a solo winter hike. And my daughter is 25 and at 25 most would agree she has a better set of life skills than she would have had at age 20 like the OP.
Might I feel different if it was my 22 year old son who has some decent experience on the trail? Sure. First he has some experience and secondly, and I suppose this will be construed by many to be sexist, but he is a male. He does not have to deal with the woman issues that are inherent to the trail. A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO.
THIS is the kind of attitude that keeps girls from wanting to take part in outdoor activities like hiking. THIS is why there is a whole thread about "where are all the girls?" THIS is the kind of attitude I expect from someone who has never been hiking, and never raised a daughter. It makes me sad that there are wonderful, athletic, adventurous girls who will be shuffled into "girl sports" and "safer" sports because of people like this.
I think that most ladies would agree that they have never been in a situation where they felt in danger on the trail because of their gender. And if we do I think it can be handled just as you would handle it in "civilization."
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
Lone Wolf
11-04-2011, 10:15
pay no attention to him. he lives near the trail but doesn't long distance hike
Lone Wolf
11-04-2011, 10:18
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT.
We already put up with far more mental and physical issues as a woman before taking on something like this. I would just like to see him go through one period. Or childbirth. Just saying. And yes I know these issues are different from those faced on the trail, but it does help me to realize already how much pain and mental crap I can put up with.
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT.
I completely agree with this. A lot of the men out there whine incessantly, but very few of the women do. At least from my experience.
Trailbender
11-04-2011, 10:38
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT.
I'd have to say this is unlikely, purely on a biological standpoint.
This is anecdotal of course but I would agree that women are not "tougher" but they do tend to be "smarter" when it comes to making decisions.
But it's not black and white. As we all know, there are crazy men and women out there - no gender has a lock on being better (or worse).
coach lou
11-04-2011, 11:16
As a parent of a young woman, I disagree with him 98%. The safety issue is real, and if my daughter was 45 I would still not want her out on the trail alone. Many times I've come up on a shelter that was close to a road and dunken partyers were there all messed up. We read worse things every day.
curtisvowen
11-04-2011, 11:17
"purely on a biological standpoint" define that.
Women naturally have more leg muscle mass, conducive if applied to hiking long range.
More body fat? Yes, helps when you're near death....
Ever had a baby? Pain tolerance?
Mother Nature created women for survival....not Man....he's a dime a dozen.
I'm just saying that if a women puts her mind into a "project" then it will be done.
I've 2 pre-teen daughters.....they'll be raised to kick your ass and look good while doin' it.....but most importantly they'll know how to get out of stupid circumstances brought on by the "male" species.
max patch
11-04-2011, 11:18
Listen to the FatMan...an inexperienced backpacker - man or woman - should not start a solo thru in mid-january.
If my 17 year old daughter told me she was going to do this, I would make sure she had the right gear, hand her my SPOT and tell her to have fun.
She does not run triathalons, and she is not a track star. she has some but not extensive backpacking experience.
The AT is not an Everest expidition, and winter hiking is only dangerous if you are stupid or don't have the right gear.
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Cookerhiker
11-04-2011, 11:28
...I think that most ladies would agree that they have never been in a situation where they felt in danger on the trail because of their gender. And if we do I think it can be handled just as you would handle it in "civilization."...
I'm glad you said "most" and not "all" because it does happen - and has been reported publicly on WB and trailjournals.com plus I'm aware of other instances not reported on-line.
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT.
Agree for the most part. Anecdote FWIW: last winter about 10 of us WBers did a winter day-hike together. One woman and the rest were guys. Guess who was the strongest hiker?
As a parent of a young woman, I disagree with him 98%. The safety issue is real, and if my daughter was 45 I would still not want her out on the trail alone. Many times I've come up on a shelter that was close to a road and dunken partyers were there all messed up. We read worse things every day.
Not likely in the dead of winter. For the case in point, the more serious concerns are weather/season related.
I would note that most of the respondants encouraging the OP to go ahead with her winter hike are guys and the detailed advice they're rendering re preparation, gear, etc. is not gender-specific.
Tipi Walter
11-04-2011, 11:38
Listen to the FatMan...an inexperienced backpacker - man or woman - should not start a solo thru in mid-january.
Thousands of newbie---inexperienced---backpackers start the AT every season. The only difference is a mid-January start. Is it daunting? Sure. Avoid at all costs? Naw.
The AT is not an Everest expedition, and winter hiking is only dangerous if you are stupid or don't have the right gear.
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Agree. It's not a death-defying adventure. Read the Trail Journals on winter starts and you'll find most of them bail to the closest town when the first big snowstorm hits. Why? For many reasons mostly having to do with Effort Expended (postholing) and the unwillingness to carry the weight in clothing and food to stay put for a week thru a bad storm. Otherwise they bail to a motel and sit it out or quit.
JenHikes
11-04-2011, 11:40
Usually I'm the only female in the groups I backpack with. Most of the time, I'm the one who takes charge, starts the fire, maintains it so it doesn't go out (my husband admits to be the worst fire-tender known to man), the one who cleans up for the night, etc. I enjoy backpacking as the only woman in the group and it gets me a lot of respect from a lot of people, hikers or not. FWIW, I try not to listen to people who think I'm a damsel in distress and that I'll surely be raped and murdered on the trail next year. Some concerns are genuine, but unless someone knows me, it's not their business anyway.
Thousands of newbie---inexperienced---backpackers start the AT every season. The only difference is a mid-January start. Is it daunting? Sure. Avoid at all costs? Naw.
Agree. It's not a death-defying adventure. Read the Trail Journals on winter starts and you'll find most of them bail to the closest town when the first big snowstorm hits. Why? For many reasons mostly having to do with Effort Expended (postholing) and the unwillingness to carry the weight in clothing and food to stay put for a week thru a bad storm. Otherwise they bail to a motel and sit it out or quit.
I never said she would make it :)
We learn more from our failures sometimes than we do from our success.
I would let my daughter or son do this knowing that although they may not last long, they will learn more about themselves than they would doing just about anything else.
It is more dangerous to drive in the winter than it is to hike.
Worst case she gets cold and tired and calls me to come get her. She comes home, does some more planning any starts where she left off come March. But she will sart back up a much wiser person.
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Worst case she gets cold and tired and calls me to come get her. She comes home, does some more planning any starts where she left off come March. But she will sart back up a much wiser person.
Correction: I would call this "The best case"...
Red Beard
11-04-2011, 13:00
Quote from this thread. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78264-January-Start/page3
THIS is the kind of attitude that keeps girls from wanting to take part in outdoor activities like hiking. THIS is why there is a whole thread about "where are all the girls?" THIS is the kind of attitude I expect from someone who has never been hiking, and never raised a daughter. It makes me sad that there are wonderful, athletic, adventurous girls who will be shuffled into "girl sports" and "safer" sports because of people like this.
I think that most ladies would agree that they have never been in a situation where they felt in danger on the trail because of their gender. And if we do I think it can be handled just as you would handle it in "civilization."
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
In all honesty, attitudes like this are purely bigoted. I believe that women should have the same opportunity to hike the trail, as anyone else. This is how it is done in a free society. That said, this thread has turned into a feminine aggrandizement echo-chamber. Folks don't even realize they're being just as bigoted towards men with statements like:
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT.
Men, get over yourselves, women get over yourselves! No sex is better than the other. The differences make us who we are, and frankly I prefer it that way.
Feral Bill
11-04-2011, 13:08
I would be delighted if my very fit 21 year old daughter decided to make a solo through hike in the usual season. Lacking winter experience, I would strongly discourage her from a January start. My 19 year old son has some winter experience, and I would not encourage him at this point either. Not a matter of sex, just experince in a harsh conditions.
Pedaling Fool
11-04-2011, 13:11
Listen to the FatMan...an inexperienced backpacker - man or woman - should not start a solo thru in mid-january.That really wasn't the thing though. Look at what the OP put in bold: "A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO."
And more of his post is centered around a lone female, as opposed to simply starting solo in mid-January, regardless of sex.
From what I've heard women generally are more sensitive to pain, but are better able to handle it compared to men. I've also heard that they can do better in a pilot seat then men. And based on my own observations in my time in the military working around guns I've noticed women who've never shot before surprisingly are pretty good at shooting and many of them outshoot first-time male shooters.
But if you notice all the world famous chefs are men. That's because we really love food:D
Feral Bill
11-04-2011, 13:11
.
It is more dangerous to drive in the winter than it is to hike.
Worst case she gets cold and tired and calls me to come get her. She comes home, does some more planning any starts where she left off come March. But she will sart back up a much wiser person.
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For a beginning hiker, maybe not more dangerous to drive (and would you want a daughter with little driving experiece driving in a blizzard?).
Actual worst case: She gets soaked to the skin, develops hypothermia, and dies alone in the mountains..
corialice81
11-04-2011, 13:42
In 2009, when I thrued the AT, it was the year of the women! Solo women, women with partners, women in groups, young women, old women... all out there. Best part... all the women I knew (over a dozen) that started in March COMPLETED the trail without any incident involving "creepsters". Booyah!
Trust your gut and you'll be fine.
As far as winter hiking...I would worry about the weather and how much winter backpacking experience you have regardless of gender. Weather is the great equalizer!
For a beginning hiker, maybe not more dangerous to drive (and would you want a daughter with little driving experiece driving in a blizzard?).
Actual worst case: She gets soaked to the skin, develops hypothermia, and dies alone in the mountains..
If she were driving in a blizzard she would have enough common sense to get off the road and wait it out until it is safer to drive. Hiking in the winter works the same way.
When was the last time a hiker south of VA died of exposure in the winter? Of the ones that did, how many had proper gear and were not doing stupid people tricks?
I grew up in Michigan and compared to up there GAs winters are down right tame. Even in Michigan its rare for a hiker with proper gear to die of exposure.
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4eyedbuzzard
11-04-2011, 14:00
Prejudiced, in the technical definition? Yes. We all judge based upon our prior knowledge and experience. Derogatory or discriminatory? No, as I think you are twisting the poster's intent, which seems to me more about safety and not wanting the young lady to get into a bad situation. Overprotective? That's a judgement call. Perhaps the person who made the post you find so offensive is concerned that criminals more often target women as victims, not that women shouldn't be hiking. Just like in the civilized world, gender is a consideration when dealing with personal safety. That's the reality, not the wishful thinking about how things should be.
Because she was a woman. Easy prey. - Gary Michael Hilton
That really wasn't the thing though. Look at what the OP put in bold: "A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO."
And more of his post is centered around a lone female, as opposed to simply starting solo in mid-January, regardless of sex.
This is exactly what I'm trying to have a discussion about in this thread. That and how to encourage younger girls to move past the nay-sayers.
There's a reason I put this in the ladies forum, to make it about the gender issue not the "inexperienced winter hiker" half of the equation.
Interesting thread.
I agree totally that women can do anything a man can do, and they definitely have every right to not only do whatever they desire (within legal and moral [yeah, I know it's different for everyone]bounds), but also to bear the entire weight of responsibility for her/his own actions, go for it! :)
Normally I don't post on the women's forum, but the title to the thread got my attention.
Unfortunately, prejudices are based on generalities (so-called "stereotypes"). It is unfortunate in every case, but it is what it is.
The out-of-the-ordinary individual must be willing to accept that fact.
Carry on........:)
Old Boots
11-04-2011, 14:40
I agree with Max Patch. Soloing in any wilderness or semi-wilderness area requires real experience regardless of gender and physical condition. I soloed in the Boundary Waters many years ago and only after many wilderness experiences with others. As I look back on it now, I believe I was lucky but foolish.
4eyedbuzzard
11-04-2011, 14:45
This is exactly what I'm trying to have a discussion about in this thread. That and how to encourage younger girls to move past the nay-sayers.
There's a reason I put this in the ladies forum, to make it about the gender issue not the "inexperienced winter hiker" half of the equation.
Just FWIW, I cannot think of a trail related organization that doesn't discourage hiking alone for either men or women, for a myriad of reasons, mostly safety related. How that would discourage women any more than men isn't readily apparent. I think the biggest obstacles to encouraging more women to hike and participate in outdoor activities lie outside the hiking community itself, and are more a reflection of society in general.
As a parent I raised four kids, 2 boys and 2 girls. They were all exposed to hiking, camping, skiing, and a host of outdoor activities, with no special considerations to their gender. Two really never liked hiking, one of my boys was so-so on it, and of the four, only my oldest daughter is an avid hiker as an adult. She rarely if ever hikes alone, somewhat heeding the aforementioned advice, but more because she feels more secure hiking with at least one other person (which could be a girlfriend, boyfriend, me, or anybody else she trusted). She'll often hike alone during the day, but always remain part of a "loose group" that gathers back together at breaks, camp, etc.
If my own daughter were to propose starting solo in January on the AT, I would advise her against it. If she were starting with the herd in March or April, I would be much less concerned, as I know there would be more people on the trail and that she would find the company of other hikers.
Tipi Walter
11-04-2011, 15:08
Just FWIW, I cannot think of a trail related organization that doesn't discourage hiking alone for either men or women, for a myriad of reasons, mostly safety related.
This is about the bleakest thing I have ever read here on Whiteblaze. I could go on a long rant about the nanny state, fear-induced retardation, and all else, but I won't. Suffice it to say these trail organizations are stump wrong.
Protection of a group? What group? Most women are harmed by men that she already knows.
In my opinion and experience, I'm far safer totally alone than with others. When I'm alone, I make all my own decisions and usually decide things much more conservatively than when I'm with others. I'm very paranoid about doing dangerous things when I'm alone. I won't even eat certain foods for fear of choking alone. I'm not triggered into anger by annoying people when I'm alone. I don't hike further than I want to when I'm alone. I'm not convinced to do things I don't feel safe doing when I'm alone. I'm not lacking any equipment I need when I'm alone (the whole sharing a tent thing is not an issue.) I've probably thought of way more bail-out, alternate route options when I'm alone than when I'm with others. I can go on.
Yes the creep factor can be worse when you are alone, but honestly, how often do you find these creeps and where? I have special rules for when I'm near roads, like not camping too close to a major road. If I were hiking the AT alone, I would never stay in a shelter alone but I would stay in a shelter if there were others that included other women.
Yeah, there's a strong cultural prejudice against women doing anything alone, from going to the movies to backpacking. As a woman, one has to make a choice--am I going to let other people's fears fence me in, or not? When I was 16 and putting together my first adventure--a bike trip around New England with two other teenaged girls--my parents insisted that we take along my 13-year-old brother and one of his scrawny friends "for protection.". Seriously? Yes, they really did. Fortunately we don't live in Saudi Arabia and its not actually illegal for us to wander around without male "protection." is there an infinitesimal chance that something bad will happen? Sure, but it's considerably less likely in the woods than in your own backyard.
daddytwosticks
11-04-2011, 15:35
I try not to argue with any woman...I simply get outsmarted every time. :)
IMO it is simply illogical to make blanket statements based on gender--that it safe for all men to hike alone, and unsafe for all women. The flip side of that behavior is to say, for instance, that men are completely incapable of taking care of themselves and need a woman around the house to keep them from starving to death or drowning in filth. People can be taught to take care of themselves. Women can be taught ways to minimize their chance of being victimized. Men can be taught to feed and clean themselves. If women are told from the cradle on up to leave a certain set of problems to men to deal with, a certain number of women will buy into it. Similarly, there are plenty of men who are just are burdened by stumbling through life doing what they've been told they must do, playing the role theyve been assigned. Some of us, though, like to ask those pesky questions... Is it true, this stuff we've been told? The long-distance hiking community contains a much greater than average percentage of people who ask WHY?
max patch
11-04-2011, 16:28
That really wasn't the thing though. Look at what the OP put in bold: "A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO."
John, FatMan did not bold that sentence. When the OP of this thread she bolded FatMans statement to try to make her point. She should have, but did not, mention this.
Sierra Echo
11-04-2011, 16:29
I almost always hike/backpack solo. The majority of my "hiker" friends don't seem to actually hike. But then they could be turning me down because I smell bad. Maybe I will invest in a different brand of deoderant and ask them again.
Ive only came across one creeper. And rest assured if he had tried something I would have made him scream like a little 5 year old bitch wearing pink panties. What he did was try to feed me fruitloops. go figure.
Tipi Walter
11-04-2011, 16:45
In my opinion and experience, I'm far safer totally alone than with others. When I'm alone, I make all my own decisions and usually decide things much more conservatively than when I'm with others. I'm very paranoid about doing dangerous things when I'm alone. I won't even eat certain foods for fear of choking alone. I'm not triggered into anger by annoying people when I'm alone. I don't hike further than I want to when I'm alone. I'm not convinced to do things I don't feel safe doing when I'm alone. I'm not lacking any equipment I need when I'm alone (the whole sharing a tent thing is not an issue.) I've probably thought of way more bail-out, alternate route options when I'm alone than when I'm with others. I can go on.
I've written about this many times in my backpacking journals, about how a group of two or more causes us to do things we'd never do alone. Solo backpackers must by definition be more careful in all things---creek crossings, tent placement, exposure to cold and snow---whereas a group often overextends or walks too far or gets too wet or too cold or it gets too dark---and all in a false sense of mutual bravado, tacit oneupmanship, or just plain obstinacy and idiocy (like building a giant bonfire atop a windswept bald just because they're in a "social setting").
Plus, I believe long-term solo backpackers are much more self-motivated and thereby need no prodding to get packed and to get out, and so do not need the urgings of fellow companions to pull off a trip. Anyway, if I waited for my peers to join me or plan a trip I'd hardly ever go out.
Pedaling Fool
11-04-2011, 16:46
John, FatMan did not bold that sentence. When the OP of this thread she bolded FatMans statement to try to make her point. She should have, but did not, mention this.I understand and I actually said that in my post, see below
That really wasn't the thing though. Look at what the OP put in bold: "A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO."
Read the last paragraph of her quoted box, where he (FatMan) admits, his remarks may sound sexist. He did not just say, "I recommend no one without winter hiking experience blah, blah, blah..."
She's 25 - old enough to fight, vote, and make her own life decisions. It also sounds like she can outrun most risks, but it's hard to outrun hypothermia, particularly if you are alone.
He is the father of a daughter. None of us, even those with daughters, can judge him on his love for her and his concern for her safety. I think he wanted to give voice to his concerns and seek advice, not to disparage the abilities and talents of sister hikers.
Pedaling Fool
11-04-2011, 16:57
Yeah, there's a strong cultural prejudice against women doing anything alone, from going to the movies to backpacking. As a woman, one has to make a choice--am I going to let other people's fears fence me in, or not? When I was 16 and putting together my first adventure--a bike trip around New England with two other teenaged girls--my parents insisted that we take along my 13-year-old brother and one of his scrawny friends "for protection.". Seriously? Yes, they really did. Fortunately we don't live in Saudi Arabia and its not actually illegal for us to wander around without male "protection." is there an infinitesimal chance that something bad will happen? Sure, but it's considerably less likely in the woods than in your own backyard.That's funny:) Only because I've seen this also and always thought it was funny when a girl was given an escort by a protecting male who she could easily give an ass whoppin', just a funny image:D
Echraide
11-04-2011, 17:24
A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO.
What century is this, again?
Quote from this thread. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78264-January-Start/page3
THIS is the kind of attitude that keeps girls from wanting to take part in outdoor activities like hiking. THIS is why there is a whole thread about "where are all the girls?" THIS is the kind of attitude I expect from someone who has never been hiking, and never raised a daughter. It makes me sad that there are wonderful, athletic, adventurous girls who will be shuffled into "girl sports" and "safer" sports because of people like this.
I think that most ladies would agree that they have never been in a situation where they felt in danger on the trail because of their gender. And if we do I think it can be handled just as you would handle it in "civilization."
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
you teach them to ignore it. no woman worth her salt should give a rat's tooter whether or not some creeper on wb thinks she shouldn't be hiking alone.
I believe for a new hiker/backpacker the advice has been spot on. A dead winter start is not the smartest thing in the world unless you have winter camping experience irregardless of your sex.
Far as sending your son or daughter who has minimal outdoor experience to springer in the dead of winter is simply ignorant. In the middle of a snow storm there simply isn't any help and how many rescuer are you going to endanger for you folly.
I have many years of winter camping experience, not sure how comfortable I would be postholing or sitting in my tent riding the storm out. the thought of postholing several miles to a road hoping for a ride is not appealing at all.
I believe for a new hiker/backpacker the advice has been spot on. A dead winter start is not the smartest thing in the world unless you have winter camping experience irregardless of your sex.
Far as sending your son or daughter who has minimal outdoor experience to springer in the dead of winter is simply ignorant. In the middle of a snow storm there simply isn't any help and how many rescuer are you going to endanger for you folly.
I have many years of winter camping experience, not sure how comfortable I would be postholing or sitting in my tent riding the storm out. the thought of postholing several miles to a road hoping for a ride is not appealing at all.
Of all the deaths from hypothermia in the U.S. every year, virtually none are 20 somethings hiking in the winter. Almost all are 50+ and involve drugs or alcohol and most of those are in the city.
The reality is 17 to 20 somethings with proper gear and not doing stupid things just don't freeze to death from lack of experience on the southern end of the AT. They get cold, they learn their limits and they go find someplace warm. GA is not the whites, it's not Maine and it's not an arctic expedition.
If my parents had followed your advice growing up with winters in Michigan would have been very boring.
doritotex
11-04-2011, 19:27
As a parent of a young woman, I disagree with him 98%. The safety issue is real, and if my daughter was 45 I would still not want her out on the trail alone. Many times I've come up on a shelter that was close to a road and dunken partyers were there all messed up. We read worse things every day.As 10-K says,women tend to be "smarter" when it comes to making decisions. As women we have to be on the "defensive" our entire lives, it is a survival skill that we have to learn, maybe men don't realize that! Women know not to sleep in shelters next to a road, to never really trust men on the trail, sleep with one eye open and always keep yourself in a safe zone. Have you ever noticed that women tent more than men? If you're in a tent your are genderless, it's the men who will push you out of the way on the trail to beat you to a shelter. A woman can set her tent up and most will think it must be a guy in there. Maybe a 20 year old is still naive when it comes to a lot of things, a young woman has to have a certain maturity level. But..how dare you say that a 45 year old woman has no business hiking alone!! There are a LOT of men that hit the trail that have business being alone, they have a lot of bravado and go out ill prepared! Women know their vulnerablities and prepare for them! Don't lump all women into a category. Maybe this young woman might not have the experience for a January hike, but don't turn it into "no woman should hike alone"!!
Blissful
11-04-2011, 19:57
Listen to the FatMan...an inexperienced backpacker - man or woman - should not start a solo thru in mid-january.
And if they do...they will learn mighty quick...
Good thing the AT is near roads frequently...
Blissful
11-04-2011, 20:08
If my 17 year old daughter told me she was going to do this, I would make sure she had the right gear, hand her my SPOT and tell her to have fun.
Personally I'd never let my 17 year old daughter out there hiking alone in winter. No way. I don't care what experience she has. Not a 17 yr old who is still in high school. Other times of the year I'd urge her to go with a group. I have seen teens go hypothermic. It isn't pretty. It's downright dangerous.
Early 20's, different story...they believe they are an adult and have things all figured out, and they'll do what they darn well please...and learn quickly, many times the hard way...
MuddyWaters
11-04-2011, 20:56
There are all kinds of men, and all kinds of women. I know women that are higher level taekwondo blackbelts that can kick my ass easily.
No doubt some can do anything a man can, and better. Most men today in the US are in extremely pitiful physical shape anyway. Beer guzzling fat lardasses that couldnt even jog across a parking lot. Most women are similar. Its a shame. 73% or US adults are OBESE.
However, still not prudent to advise an inexperienced person to set out winter hiking in Jan. , be it a man or woman.
HiKen2011
11-04-2011, 21:39
Women, men, make your own choices....wisely of course!
modiyooch
11-04-2011, 22:35
Quote from this thread. So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this? WE don't. It comes from within.
The prejudice you women face? I don't think it is comparable with the prejudice You women Used to face not so long ago. So for this part Give some credit to yourselves (and give less but some to your men for being quite avanguard in this issue.
The prejudice women are facing in developing countries and many parts of the worlds right now is IMMENSE.
Being said if this prejudice in refelection leads to posts that I read here like:
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT. (lone wolf)
Or this one:
Women naturally have more leg muscle mass, conducive if applied to hiking long range.
More body fat? Yes, helps when you're near death....
Ever had a baby? Pain tolerance?
Mother Nature created women for survival....not Man....he's a dime a dozen( Curtiswoven)
these type of posts are not going to help you vipe out any remaining prejudice. I sincerely expect you women to point out this over the board bold posts by yourself. It is upsetting to find out these posts are not properly addressed by women themselves.
Protection of a group? What group? Most women are harmed by men that she already knows.
In my opinion and experience, I'm far safer totally alone than with others. When I'm alone, I make all my own decisions and usually decide things much more conservatively than when I'm with others. I'm very paranoid about doing dangerous things when I'm alone. I won't even eat certain foods for fear of choking alone. I'm not triggered into anger by annoying people when I'm alone. I don't hike further than I want to when I'm alone. I'm not convinced to do things I don't feel safe doing when I'm alone. I'm not lacking any equipment I need when I'm alone (the whole sharing a tent thing is not an issue.) I've probably thought of way more bail-out, alternate route options when I'm alone than when I'm with others. I can go on.
Yes the creep factor can be worse when you are alone, but honestly, how often do you find these creeps and where? I have special rules for when I'm near roads, like not camping too close to a major road. If I were hiking the AT alone, I would never stay in a shelter alone but I would stay in a shelter if there were others that included other women.
Most of what you said about a solo hiker(female and male doesnt matter) is true. for this reason Solo hikers are statistically safe( hello, not safer just as safe) but your stetement that says and I quote:"In my opinion and experience, I'm far safer totally alone than with others." ruins every little beauty of your post. That is wrong irrespect of gender.period.( I am a solo hiker FYI, an extreme one)
I do not post to this forum out of respect for you all but since I have been called a creep, etc I thought I would make an effort to clarify my post. But first, let me assure you I am a good man and not a creep.
Second, I apologize to all I offended. As I re-read my post I can see that it was poorly written and did not clearly convey my concerns. And, I knew some would see it as sexist in nature even if it was written better but as my kids would have said a few years back, I was just keeping it real.
It was never my intent to question the toughness of women, nor their savvy. That is why I gave my daughter's bio as an athlete. She can pretty much kick my azz in any test of strength and endurance. And let me add that everyday I wake up and look at my wife I am reminded how much tougher and smarter she is than me. So lets set all that aside.
My concerns about an inexperienced hiker taking on a solo January Start have nothing to do with sex. Male or Female, it is simply a bad idea. I am an officer for one of the chapters of "Friends of Georgia State Parks and Historic Sites" and I meet with GA DNR folks all the time and I can assure you that these professionals would all agree with that statement. I just can't believe that any forest ranger, park ranger, or ATC representative would say different. And let me mention, if things go bad these are the SAR folks that will have to endanger themselves to save the inexperienced winter hiker. And then there would be posts all over WB saying what a foolish decision to start in January without any experience and he/she should have to pay for the SAR.
The protections of the group comment was poorly written. I was not referring to hiking in general, I was referring to an AT Thru hike and all involved. I have often written on this forum that I believe the trail is one of the safest places to be for anyone, and that if anyone does come across that creepy feeling to simply move on down the trail. I personally believe that dangerous creeps are generally too lazy to be out hiking. Of course the one exception being that Hilton animal. But that is a very rare case, kind of like lightening striking you.
My concern has to do with the time spent off the trail. And that is where the protections of the group comment comes in. It is the getting to town, resupplying, and getting back to the trail where the realities of sex come into play. There are plenty of creeps out there off the trail that will do bad things to women given the opportunity.
I see folks hitch-hiking or walking from the trail all the time. But I don't see females hitch-hiking of walking alone. It seems prudent that they join up with others when heading to town for the "protections of the group". A young women starting in January would find herself pretty much alone and would have to take on resupply on her own. That is what concerns me. My wife, who I have admitted above being much tougher and smarter than I sees this the same way. A young women hitching or walking the roads alone, it is a bad idea. Is she prejudiced too against women?
Maybe it is simply that we are parents, and I know at times to even our adult children they think we are just stupid and old fashioned. I know, felt that way about my parents for many years. But you know, it seems that the older I get, the smarter my parents become.
Certainly I welcome the discussion. I look forward to others thoughts and as long as I am not personally attacked will again respect your forum and not interrupt again.
max patch
11-05-2011, 09:10
FatMan, it was clear to me (and should have been to anyone with an IQ above room temperature) what you meant in your original post. The unfortunate tangent the discussion took was typical WB bull*****t.
You are a valuable member of this site and your comments on trail conditions around the Woody Gap area plus or minus 20 miles are a valuable resource. Sometimes people should think before they talk out of their azz.
coach lou
11-05-2011, 09:39
Thanks Fat Man!!! I was not going to respond to ".... how dare I!!!", but you have said things we both should have originaly. I showed this thread to my 45 year old hiking, fishing, biking, girl scout leader wife, and she feels the same. She would never go out alone [and never did without a companion, male or female]. I, like fat man, am concerned with our daughters safety in this ever increaseingly nasty world.
modiyooch
11-05-2011, 09:54
I for one have spent alot of time solo hiking between the years 1980-2010 not necessarily by choice. I try to be "street" smart about it. I know there is risk from an injury standpoint. I have had some close calls. Initially, my first time out , I was alone in November 1980 when two partners cancelled.
That being said, when the exact thing happened to my daughter, I made a point to take time off from work and hike with her. It's different as a parent.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2011, 09:58
I believe for a new hiker/backpacker the advice has been spot on. A dead winter start is not the smartest thing in the world unless you have winter camping experience irregardless of your sex.
Far as sending your son or daughter who has minimal outdoor experience to springer in the dead of winter is simply ignorant. In the middle of a snow storm there simply isn't any help and how many rescuer are you going to endanger for you folly.
I have many years of winter camping experience, not sure how comfortable I would be postholing or sitting in my tent riding the storm out. the thought of postholing several miles to a road hoping for a ride is not appealing at all.
Well, what can I say? All of my winter trips include postholing. They also include sitting in a tent riding out a series of snowstorms. And they can easily include postholing several miles on a closed forest road to get to a "better" road for hitchhiking purposes. Last year I got caught in a mean snowstorm with 18 inches of the white stuff and pulled a 12 mile postholing hike on a series of forest roads to get to a better campsite.
My point: Winter backpackers seek out these conditions and of course are comfortable in these conditions. These conditions come with the turf. The question is, should a newbie backpacker start the AT in Georgia in January in similar conditions? Well, from what I described above---No. But the reality is, Springer Mt in January could be 60F with a clear trail and no snow. But knowing what I know about newbie backpackers, well, a January start on the AT is probably a bad idea, though it's easy for old hands to say "go for it"---since we know the real-world implications of being out in the winter. You take one day at a time and bail when needed, easy to do on the AT.
But let's face it, newbie backpackers have to learn everything all at once---getting used to sleeping on a thin sleeping pad, staying dry, staying warm without getting wet with rain or sweat, setting up a shelter in all conditions (and at night), how to read the trail, etc. Now throw in the potential for a foot of snow and 10F?? Too much, too soon.
max patch
11-05-2011, 10:08
My point: Winter backpackers seek out these conditions and of course are comfortable in these conditions. These conditions come with the turf. The question is, should a newbie backpacker start the AT in Georgia in January in similar conditions? Well, from what I described above---No. But the reality is, Springer Mt in January could be 60F with a clear trail and no snow. But knowing what I know about newbie backpackers, well, a January start on the AT is probably a bad idea, though it's easy for old hands to say "go for it"---since we know the real-world implications of being out in the winter. You take one day at a time and bail when needed, easy to do on the AT.
Springer isn't the issue. Snow in GA isn't usually a safety issue. Plenty of roads to bail if need be. And in the blizzard of 93 hikers were "rescued" from Springer (even if they didn't want to be).
The issue is what happens to these inexperienced hikers when they hit the GSMNP. Those conditions can be markedly different from Springer.
Nutbrown
11-05-2011, 10:14
I have always taught my 6yo daughter that the woods are a safe place. I am teaching her how to spot something that could be trouble, whether it be slippery roots and rocks, or a person walking the trail with a dog. She is learning to trust herself, and be cautious but not afraid. Being more self aware will save her life, and lead to more meaning in her relationship with nature. I hope she is never too afraid to take on a challenge alone, because we are always alone at some point. It shouldn't be about male vs female, it should be about being prepared.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2011, 10:33
Springer isn't the issue. Snow in GA isn't usually a safety issue. Plenty of roads to bail if need be. And in the blizzard of 93 hikers were "rescued" from Springer (even if they didn't want to be).
The issue is what happens to these inexperienced hikers when they hit the GSMNP. Those conditions can be markedly different from Springer.
As I said in the post---you take one day at a time and bail when needed, easy to do on the AT. There's a lot of distance between Springer and the Park, and a lot of opportunities to bail and end the trip when conditions turn "south".
The Blizzard of '93 is a whole other can of worms. It's not called the Storm of the Century for nothing. A good backpacking buddy of mine named Hoppin John was in the Smokies during the thing and had to get helicopter-rescued. A group of high school kids from the Cranbrook School in Michigan, who were in the Citico/Slickrock during the storm, had an epic experience with consequent helicopter rescue. One student lost half a foot to frostbite and a trip leader lost much more than that (fingers and feet).
I was in a ridgetop mountain tipi near the VA/NC state line near Mt Rogers during the storm and I got walloped but survived in style since I had a woodstove cranking inside the lodge. "Syphilization" shut down for several days, overhead jets stopped, thank god, and we were back to 10,000 BC where we belong. So, yes, winter backpacking can be fun.
Red Beard
11-05-2011, 10:42
FatMan, it was clear to me (and should have been to anyone with an IQ above room temperature) what you meant in your original post. The unfortunate tangent the discussion took was typical WB bull*****t.
You are a valuable member of this site and your comments on trail conditions around the Woody Gap area plus or minus 20 miles are a valuable resource. Sometimes people should think before they talk out of their azz.
I don't think it was typical WB bull$#!7. I think the discussion had been political from the word go. AFAIK, WB is a place to discuss hiking and the outdoors, not leftists policies based on self-imposed victimization.
PackOnerBacker Mel
11-05-2011, 11:08
I just joined this website. I am a 52 year old woman. I grew up backpacking in Ky. in the Red River Gorge, but I have never gone alone. I had to quit backpacking 20 years ago due to a bad mountain bike accident. Although experienced Way back then, I know there is a lot to learn now getting back into it. So no I would not attempt to backpack in January. Why would I? When I could start in March:) Do the AT alone? Sure, but seems like it would be a lot more fun with someone else.
I am hoping to find a group or females that would help me get prepared to do the AT and possibly go with them. Not sure how to go about that yet, so any advice would be appreciated.
I hike here in the Atlanta area alone and am very street smart when coming in contact with males on the trails and go a lot of places most women wouldn't go. I never let a male get a certain distance from me. So I never go hiking without some kind of protection and if a male tried to do anything to me...it would be his last time.. To The Moon!! LOL
Which brings me to my question for everyone: What kind of protection would you bring with you to hike the AT? I would think that gender shouldn't matter, that everyone would want to be prepared whether alone or not to protect themselves from Creeps. As far as the other dangers on the trail I would think that those can be prepared for to a point, but like Helen Keller stated "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing". Sometimes you just have to go for it and pray whether you are a man or a woman, I dont think it should matter. We all take chances everyday. Hope I get some feedback :) Geez, this sure is a long real first post.
Thanks Fat Man!!! I was not going to respond to ".... how dare I!!!", but you have said things we both should have originaly. I showed this thread to my 45 year old hiking, fishing, biking, girl scout leader wife, and she feels the same. She would never go out alone [and never did without a companion, male or female]. I, like fat man, am concerned with our daughters safety in this ever increaseingly nasty world.What you see as protecting your women, I see as treating women as helpless beings who are unsafe in the big, bad world without the protection of a self-appointed superior being. I'm not impressed that your wife agrees with you--that just means she has drunk the "I'm so helpless" Koolaid. Sorry to be rude, but I completely and totally disagree with you. I don't accept those sorts of restrictions for myself, and I urge other women to acquire the skills they need to be independent beings. Which includes the skills for solo hiking and backpacking. People--men and women--can preach the "you need protection" crap all they want, but you don't have to listen.
Springer isn't the issue. Snow in GA isn't usually a safety issue. Plenty of roads to bail if need be. And in the blizzard of 93 hikers were "rescued" from Springer (even if they didn't want to be).The issue is what happens to these inexperienced hikers when they hit the GSMNP. Those conditions can be markedly different from Springer.My observation, after a series of Jan. 1 trips to Springer is that the novices who would endanger themselves in the Smokies don't make it that far, so it's not an issue.
This is about the bleakest thing I have ever read here on Whiteblaze. I could go on a long rant about the nanny state, fear-induced retardation, and all else, but I won't. Suffice it to say these trail organizations are stump wrong.
If I could only hike with other people I'd put my gear on ebay and find another hobby.
Okay, so having read FatMan's response I think I have a better understanding of his original post. I did not intend for this to explode the way it has. I provided the entire quote of his original post, and a link to the thread it was in, so that people (hopefully!) wouldn't take it out of context. I bolded the section that I found offensive because it's the part I wanted to discuss in the ladies forum.
I understand that many people believe that women are more at risk to be victims of violent crime than men. That is true, in a statistical sense. But as one previous poster pointed out, many of those crimes come from men she already knows. Now to address crimes from men she doesn't know.
"A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO."
To me this quote is glaringly similar to some of the things I have heard from people claiming a girl who wears a short skirt is "asking to be raped." I know that was not the original intention, but it still has the ring of shifting the blame off the criminal on to the victim.
Now it is a fact of our society that women should be prepared and aware in order to protect themselves if something were to happen. But these preparations are not a matter of carrying a gun, mace, a tazer, or a knife for protection. In any situation where you truly need these things they are probably not available, and the training to use them is far more extensive than using your own lungs and limbs. "Knowledge weighs nothing, and you can bring it anywhere."
As a female, I refuse to live my life in total fear of such a small percentage of the male population, who might want to victimize me. When it happens, I deal with it. I make my wishes clear, with physical force if necessary. It is amazing how even a calm clear voice can sometimes deflect these situations. And it has happened to me, but in a vastly different setting than on the trail.
I have walked alone in the city at night, and I feel far more safe hitching a ride into town than doing that. Every day on the AT has it's own inherent risks, but so does every day in civilization. And I don't think the "extra" risk of a female on the trail is any more than anywhere else. As one person pointed out, this is not Saudi Arabia, and I don't need a male escort just to leave the house.
I firmly believe that solo female hikers are safe on the trail (and in trail towns). And I've put my money (and my life) where my mouth is by hiking alone.
Pedaling Fool
11-05-2011, 14:53
I don't think it was typical WB bull$#!7. I think the discussion had been political from the word go. AFAIK, WB is a place to discuss hiking and the outdoors, not leftists policies based on self-imposed victimization.I'm not sure what you're saying in this post, but I believe you're saying that anyone that understands the frustration on the part of women when such comments are made like, "You really should have a man with you...". Than that person is a leftist:confused:. I believe most here just sees and understands the frustration, it has nothing to do with politics; I know it can turn political, but really haven't seen it here.
This is just one of those issues, not just in the states, that's been going on for ages. It's time to change that attitude, like we have already with so many other things.
BTW, I was reading about marathons today and just by chance came across this http://www.thelizlibrary.org/undelete/WHM/WHM07.html There's more history than politics in this thread.
Excerpts from the link:
In 1966 (six years before the official date of women's participation in the race) Roberta Bengay (Roberta Gibb Welch) hid in the bushes and then joined the runners just after take-off to get into the race. She ran the Boston Marathon in 3:12.2 and beat two-thirds of the men. Race officials, however, denied a woman had run the race. "I know of no girl who ran in the Boston Marathon. I do know of a girl who is supposed to have run on the same roads as the marathon route today. But that's not the same."
The very next year, Katherine Switzer was refused permission to enter the Boston Marathon, but got a number in 1967 as K. Switzer. While racing she was recognized as a girl and officials chased her trying to pull off her number. (There's a famous photo of the attempts to remove her number which were foiled by male runners around her, as well as her speed.) Switzer finished the race and most certainly WAS the first woman to run the race under an official number. But Switzer paid a great price for her audacity. She was a member of the Syracuse University track team and was promptly suspended from the Amateur Athletic Union for "running without a chaperon!"
swamprat
11-05-2011, 16:05
I would be delighted if my very fit 21 year old daughter decided to make a solo through hike in the usual season. Lacking winter experience, I would strongly discourage her from a January start. My 19 year old son has some winter experience, and I would not encourage him at this point either. Not a matter of sex, just experince in a harsh conditions.
This is a Completely unbiased opinion related to the male or female issue. However, making this decision as a 51 yr old male, fairly new to long distance hiking , having extensive outdoor experience, with a strong survival instinct, and a background having to do with 30 yrs of law enforcement, NO WAY would I try it. I do not believe I am prepared for it. Could I make it, sure, baring any misfortune. As far as someone stated, that worse case where she calls and says she is cold and tired, come and get me. Hypothermia can set in way before she is picked up. Doesnt have anything to do with being male or female, isn't sexest, not trying to keep females from hiking, just want people to make smart decisions. A "person" (how's that for being politically correct), attempting a solo thru beginning in January, that has no experience is asking for troubles.
takethisbread
11-05-2011, 16:41
all this politically correct bull.
Young women can hike just as well or better than men, no question in many cases. the PC police jumping on a guy bc he worries about young ladies safety out there is silly. typical in our culture i guess. there is a lot of young, horny and high young men out there on the trail. i would worry if my daughter were among them. i would worry if my daughter were in the GSMNP in January. I would worry if anyone i loved were in there in January. Men hold young women in high esteem. There is nothing wrong with that. we want to see women and children suffer less than others. it is not akin to blaming a rape on the victim.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2011, 16:51
all this politically correct bull.
Young women can hike just as well or better than men, no question in many cases. the PC police jumping on a guy bc he worries about young ladies safety out there is silly. typical in our culture i guess. there is a lot of young, horny and high young men out there on the trail. i would worry if my daughter were among them. i would worry if my daughter were in the GSMNP in January. I would worry if anyone i loved were in there in January. Men hold young women in high esteem. There is nothing wrong with that. we want to see women and children suffer less than others. it is not akin to blaming a rape on the victim.
So, the whole point of being a parent is to worry?? When does it end? Maybe our worries are our own problem, and have nothing to do with their lives in the least. I was raised by two professional Worriers. After I turned 18 they worried. After I turned 21 they worried. Now, upon reflection, I see all their worry as a sort of selfish attachment, a couple degrees away from Control.
max patch
11-05-2011, 17:12
all this politically correct bull.
the PC police jumping on a guy bc he worries about young ladies safety out there is silly.
Exactly...
aaronthebugbuffet
11-05-2011, 21:36
So, the whole point of being a parent is to worry?? When does it end? Maybe our worries are our own problem, and have nothing to do with their lives in the least. I was raised by two professional Worriers. After I turned 18 they worried. After I turned 21 they worried. Now, upon reflection, I see all their worry as a sort of selfish attachment, a couple degrees away from Control.Awesome post!
4eyedbuzzard
11-05-2011, 22:02
So, the whole point of being a parent is to worry?? When does it end? Maybe our worries are our own problem, and have nothing to do with their lives in the least. I was raised by two professional Worriers. After I turned 18 they worried. After I turned 21 they worried. Now, upon reflection, I see all their worry as a sort of selfish attachment, a couple degrees away from Control.
How many kids do you have?
Women alone in isolated areas(anywhere) are at risk. And yes, this risk is greater for girls, than for guys. During thru hiking season the risk is reduced, because solo hikers are not isolated. The AT in Georgia is isolated in January.
Just because being isolated on the trail. is less risky, than being isolated in most cities, it is still an unacceptable risk.
Gary Hilton murdered three women who were alone, and isolated.
Okay, so having read FatMan's response I think I have a better understanding of his original post. I did not intend for this to explode the way it has. I provided the entire quote of his original post, and a link to the thread it was in, so that people (hopefully!) wouldn't take it out of context. I bolded the section that I found offensive because it's the part I wanted to discuss in the ladies forum.
I understand that many people believe that women are more at risk to be victims of violent crime than men. That is true, in a statistical sense. But as one previous poster pointed out, many of those crimes come from men she already knows. Now to address crimes from men she doesn't know.
"A young female hiking alone where she does not have the protections of a group is simply asking for trouble IMO."
To me this quote is glaringly similar to some of the things I have heard from people claiming a girl who wears a short skirt is "asking to be raped." I know that was not the original intention, but it still has the ring of shifting the blame off the criminal on to the victim.
Now it is a fact of our society that women should be prepared and aware in order to protect themselves if something were to happen. But these preparations are not a matter of carrying a gun, mace, a tazer, or a knife for protection. In any situation where you truly need these things they are probably not available, and the training to use them is far more extensive than using your own lungs and limbs. "Knowledge weighs nothing, and you can bring it anywhere."
As a female, I refuse to live my life in total fear of such a small percentage of the male population, who might want to victimize me. When it happens, I deal with it. I make my wishes clear, with physical force if necessary. It is amazing how even a calm clear voice can sometimes deflect these situations. And it has happened to me, but in a vastly different setting than on the trail.
I have walked alone in the city at night, and I feel far more safe hitching a ride into town than doing that. Every day on the AT has it's own inherent risks, but so does every day in civilization. And I don't think the "extra" risk of a female on the trail is any more than anywhere else. As one person pointed out, this is not Saudi Arabia, and I don't need a male escort just to leave the house.
I firmly believe that solo female hikers are safe on the trail (and in trail towns). And I've put my money (and my life) where my mouth is by hiking alone.
Its Ironic/Funny/Sad that if the OP does get into trouble, FatMan will prob be the one to help... He's deff "Good People"... I don't think anyone on WB spends more time on the Georgia AT between Springer and Dicks than me or FatMan, and our hounds :)... I have been NOBO and SOBO twice in the last 5 weeks, and there were some tough conditions... Wait til January... I'm just sayin'...
If I could only hike with other people I'd put my gear on ebay and find another hobby.
Seriously??? NOW Thats funny...
Women alone in isolated areas(anywhere) are at risk. And yes, this risk is greater for girls, than for guys. During thru hiking season the risk is reduced, because solo hikers are not isolated. The AT in Georgia is isolated in January. Just because being isolated on the trail. is less risky, than being isolated in most cities, it is still an unacceptable risk. Gary Hilton murdered three women who were alone, and isolated.Actually Gary Hilton also murdered a couple hiking together, the Bryants. So, in order to assure absolute safety lets review what were going to allow women to do... Can they leave the house unescorted? Is that safe? Can they drive alone? Go to the store alone? Walk around the block? Can you assure us complete safety in our own homes? In our own cities? I think not. What about the fact that the most recent murder victim on the AT is male? In other words...men shouldn't hike alone either, or, apparently in pairs. (Please review the murder statistics on the AT and see how many of them are pairs of people.). Only groups of three or more are safe enough.
Sailor (The other one)
11-06-2011, 09:12
........................
Sorry, but I've never understood what that means.
So, the whole point of being a parent is to worry?? When does it end? Maybe our worries are our own problem, and have nothing to do with their lives in the least. I was raised by two professional Worriers. After I turned 18 they worried. After I turned 21 they worried. Now, upon reflection, I see all their worry as a sort of selfish attachment, a couple degrees away from Control.You hit that particular nail right on the head. And, yes, I have three children and a husband. The amazing thing is that the more you try to control another person's behavior, the harder they try to pull away, even to the point of harming themselves. Think Romeo and Juliet. Worrying is the worrier's problem.
<STRONG></STRONG>
Actually Gary Hilton also murdered a couple hiking together, the Bryants. So, in order to assure absolute safety lets review what were going to allow women to do... Can they leave the house unescorted? Is that safe? Can they drive alone? Go to the store alone? Walk around the block? Can you assure us complete safety in our own homes? In our own cities? I think not. What about the fact that the most recent murder victim on the AT is male? In other words...men shouldn't hike alone either, or, apparently in pairs. (Please review the murder statistics on the AT and see how many of them are pairs of people.). Only groups of three or more are safe enough.<BR><BR><STRONG><EM><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms">Sucks to be ur hubby... But... I hear they are doing awesome things with regards to testicle implants...</SPAN></EM></STRONG>
To expand on this theme...my observation is that the same people who "worry" are the ones who try to control other aspects of their spouse's and offsprings' lives--what they wear, what they eat, how they cut their hair, who their friends are, their work/school choices...
<STRONG></STRONG><BR><BR><STRONG><EM><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms">Sucks to be ur hubby... But... I hear they are doing awesome things with regards to testicle implants...</SPAN></EM></STRONG>
Not sure what happened to that post, but should have read:
Sucks to be ur hubby... I hear they are doing awesome things with regards to testicle implants...
Sucks to be ur hubby... But...*I hear they are doing awesome things with regards to testicle implants...Apparently he has been happy enough with the arrangement to let it continue these past 36 years. And he appreciates the fact that I can take care of myself because that frees him up to do things he enjoys doing. I think he's about to set off on a long bike ride.
Odd Man Out
11-06-2011, 10:10
Just because being isolated on the trail. is less risky, than being isolated in most cities, it is still an unacceptable risk.
Unacceptable to whom? If you don't feel comfortable hiking alone in Jan, then you shouldn't. But what right to do you have to label someone else's decision as "unacceptable"? I have a teenage daughter who went on a church mission trip to Juarez Mexico. Did I worry? Yes. Did we educate ourselves about the risks (which are "off the charts" in comparison to the AT)? Yes. Did I support her decision to follow her dreams and go? Yes. Do other people feel that our decision was "unacceptable"? Irrelevant. What does this have to do with hiking? Just read the OP. It seemed pretty clear to me. Go Girls!
Nutbrown
11-06-2011, 10:30
Your daughter is a lucky girl.
Unacceptable to whom? If you don't feel comfortable hiking alone in Jan, then you shouldn't. But what right to do you have to label someone else's decision as "unacceptable"? I have a teenage daughter who went on a church mission trip to Juarez Mexico. Did I worry? Yes. Did we educate ourselves about the risks (which are "off the charts" in comparison to the AT)? Yes. Did I support her decision to follow her dreams and go? Yes. Do other people feel that our decision was "unacceptable"? Irrelevant. What does this have to do with hiking? Just read the OP. It seemed pretty clear to me. Go Girls!
Apparently he has been happy enough with the arrangement to let it continue these past 36 years. And he appreciates the fact that I can take care of myself because that frees him up to do things he enjoys doing. I think he's about to set off on a long bike ride.
Tandum Bicycle right??? Ummm... I thought so :p...
Sierra Echo
11-06-2011, 10:55
Tandum Bicycle right??? Ummm... I thought so :p...
And here I was figuring you would ask if he still had his training wheels on. Or if it was was a tricycle. Boy was I wrong!
Unacceptable to whom? If you don't feel comfortable hiking alone in Jan, then you shouldn't. But what right to do you have to label someone else's decision as "unacceptable"? I have a teenage daughter who went on a church mission trip to Juarez Mexico. Did I worry? Yes. Did we educate ourselves about the risks (which are "off the charts" in comparison to the AT)? Yes. Did I support her decision to follow her dreams and go? Yes. Do other people feel that our decision was "unacceptable"? Irrelevant. What does this have to do with hiking? Just read the OP. It seemed pretty clear to me. Go Girls!That's what I'm talking about!
Uh, no to the tandem bike, because I don't choose to spend my day on a bike, and he doesn't choose to spend the day knitting and walking. Not that it's any of your business , but we're going to see The Way together this afternoon. You really don't get it, do you? That relationships can function in a no-giving-orders/no-nagging zone?
Uh, no to the tandem bike, because I don't choose to spend my day on a bike, and he doesn't choose to spend the day knitting and walking. Not that it's any of your business , but we're going to see The Way together this afternoon. You really don't get it, do you? That relationships can function in a no-giving-orders/no-nagging zone?
Your marriage sounds a lot like ours. My wife and I have a "together life" and a "separate life" and we support each other in both areas. Neither of us would do well in a more traditional arrangement - we don't NEED each other...... But, having said that, we do a lot of stuff together including parenting 3 children. I'm totally in love with my wife, and I *hope* the feeling is mutual. :)
I think a lot of people mistake being together all the time with "real love" when it's just as often a dysfunction.
We're as close as any couple I know (hard to judge just by looking though) and we've been together for 25 years - long enough to see many couples we were friends with who didn't get our lifestyle get divorced - go figure..
4eyedbuzzard
11-06-2011, 11:21
I think a whole lot of people here are misreading concern and some worry as a desire to control. Parents are rightfully concerned for their children's welfare, even when those children become young adults. It has very little to do with control. We want our children to take control of their own lives, to be successful at what they choose, to live their own lives. What we don't want is for them to get seriously hurt while learning how to do that. It has to do with love - not a desire to control.
Young adults are certainly free to make their own decisions with or without their parent's approval. Does that mean 18, 19, 20 . . . year olds don't make really bad decisions at times? That is why parents of young adults are concerned, and yes, why they worry at times and try to prevent their adult children from making bad decisions. That isn't to say older adults don't make bad decisions as well. We all do. The difference is that we've learned a bit more about the world along the way.
The young lady who gave rise to several threads on this subject has already made a few bad decisions (and I don't think winter hiking is necessarily the worst of them): posting under her real name, stating her intent to hike alone especially at a time of year with few other hikers around, revealing her approximate itinerary / start date, etc. Given other info available online it is way too easy to obtain other personal info about her, such as her age, address, height, hair color, photos, etc. At some point, given the history of her posts, she is likely to post here or elsewhere more details about her travel plans, start date, etc.
Many of you may not think much about personal security. Many may think that the few bad things that happen in life are just bad luck and completely out of our control. But our own decisions play greatly into the risks we face and how we manage them. Whether people like to admit it or not, or simply dismiss the risk as "statistically small" or "acceptable", there are bad people out there, and they read message boards too. So when some of us see someone painting a target on themselves, no matter that that target may be small in the scope of things and that nothing is likely to happen, we still speak up.
Sorry, but I've never understood what that means.
It means I typed a bunch of stuff that, upon reflection, was tripe and I didn't want to embarrass myself or let anyone know how absolutely stupid I can be.
Since you can't delete a message and you have to type 10 characters I go ................ whenever I do that..
atmilkman
11-06-2011, 11:44
[QUOTE=10-K;1215935]Your marriage sounds a lot like ours. My wife and I have a "together life" and a "separate life" and we support each other in both areas. Neither of us would do well in a more traditional arrangement - we don't NEED each other...... But, having said that, we do a lot of stuff together including parenting 3 children. I'm totally in love with my wife, and I *hope* the feeling is mutual. :)
I think a lot of people mistake being together all the time with "real love" when it's just as often a dysfunction.
Good arrangement. Marta's too. My wife and I refer to it as being joined at the hips. Not for us. We have your time, my time, our time. My wife doesn't LD hike but she likes short day hikes with me especially to unique views/vistas/etc. She just dropped me off the other day for a hike on the Pinhoti. I went solo. Was I careful? Yes. Did she worry? Yes. Did I get hurt? Yes, even being as careful as I could I fell and did something to my foot. Took me two days to bail and cover 8 mi. She picked me up. She's my support, resupply, rescue, whatever you want to call it. Am I healed? Just about. Am I going to solo again? You bet? Will she worry? You know it. But she completely understands and fully supports. Like 10-K I love her too.
It is the responsibility of the parent to raise a child who is capable of knowing their own limits, judging their own strengths, and asking for help when they need it.
In my opinion the more a parent worries about their child's decisions, the less confident they are in the skills they taught as a parent. And yes, if you taught your daughter that she needs a man to protect her you SHOULD worry, because her reliance on another will keep her from learning to take care of herself.
are you retarded or just a bitch?
Not sure what happened to that post, but should have read:
Sucks to be ur hubby... I hear they are doing awesome things with regards to testicle implants...
sorry. should have read:
are you retarded or just a bitch?
Howdy, Kanga! I don't think he's a bitch, but one does wonder what he's doing reading and posting in the women's forum...
Howdy, Kanga! I don't think he's a bitch, but one does wonder what he's doing reading and posting in the women's forum...
With all respect Marta, I read the women posts and post here if needed. Does it concern you ?
Should I avoid being seen around women forum?
Is it what you are saying? Men in men threads and forums, and women in women?
Strongly disagreed.
Not sure what happened to that post, but should have read:
Sucks to be ur hubby... I hear they are doing awesome things with regards to testicle implants...
This is a very rude and irresponsive approach to a discussion. As a man I never ever felt any previlage over women but it is not bad every now and then we check our ........ They are not just for showing that we are male.
They bring some responibilities!!!! that seems you don't take serious.
The Women's Forum operates under slightly different rules than some of the other forums in WB. In general, people who think that women shouldn't be hiking are discouraged from posting here, as dog-haters are discouraged from posting in the Dog Forum and Speed-Hiking haters are discouraged from posting in the Speed Hiking Forum. Men are not banned from this forum, but dick-swinging behavior is not normally tolerated here.
Speed-Hiking haters are discouraged from posting in the Speed Hiking Forum.
haha! I live for the day....
haha! I live for the day....It is weird, is it not, that people who's mantra is "The only good hike is a slow hike" continue to read and post in a forum whose very existence is abhorrent to them?
This is the story of the internet: You can't keep a good hater down!
takethisbread
11-06-2011, 14:44
It is weird, is it not, that people who's mantra is "The only good hike is a slow hike" continue to read and post in a forum whose very existence is abhorrent to them?This is the story of the internet: You can't keep a good hater down! I thought the story of the Internet is having a place for everyone to claim victim status?
Cookerhiker
11-06-2011, 14:49
... Men are not banned from this forum, but dick-swinging behavior is not normally tolerated here.
Or as one of the mods put it not long ago: "You're welcome to participate but check your testoserone at the door"
I thought the story of the Internet is having a place for everyone to claim victim status?
That long pre-dates the internet.
Alligator
11-06-2011, 15:54
Hopefully readers can return to the thread topic. Toli's participation in the thread has been concluded.
atmilkman
11-06-2011, 16:40
Quote from this thread. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78264-January-Start/page3
THIS is the kind of attitude that keeps girls from wanting to take part in outdoor activities like hiking. THIS is why there is a whole thread about "where are all the girls?" THIS is the kind of attitude I expect from someone who has never been hiking, and never raised a daughter. It makes me sad that there are wonderful, athletic, adventurous girls who will be shuffled into "girl sports" and "safer" sports because of people like this.
I think that most ladies would agree that they have never been in a situation where they felt in danger on the trail because of their gender. And if we do I think it can be handled just as you would handle it in "civilization."
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
I think one example of an answer to your question of how do we (meaning women I assume) get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like a young female hiking alone where she does not have the protection of a group is simply asking for trouble is by doing exactly what you have done already. Posing the question to other women on a forum like this and let them share their experience of hiking alone, direct them (the potential new hiker) to this and let them read what they have to say and maybe that would help quell any inhibition that might be stopping them. Good thread. Show someone.
MissMagnolia
11-06-2011, 17:23
I think a whole lot of people here are misreading concern and some worry as a desire to control. Parents are rightfully concerned for their children's welfare, even when those children become young adults. It has very little to do with control. We want our children to take control of their own lives, to be successful at what they choose, to live their own lives. What we don't want is for them to get seriously hurt while learning how to do that. It has to do with love - not a desire to control.
Young adults are certainly free to make their own decisions with or without their parent's approval. Does that mean 18, 19, 20 . . . year olds don't make really bad decisions at times? That is why parents of young adults are concerned, and yes, why they worry at times and try to prevent their adult children from making bad decisions. That isn't to say older adults don't make bad decisions as well. We all do. The difference is that we've learned a bit more about the world along the way.
The young lady who gave rise to several threads on this subject has already made a few bad decisions (and I don't think winter hiking is necessarily the worst of them): posting under her real name, stating her intent to hike alone especially at a time of year with few other hikers around, revealing her approximate itinerary / start date, etc. Given other info available online it is way too easy to obtain other personal info about her, such as her age, address, height, hair color, photos, etc. At some point, given the history of her posts, she is likely to post here or elsewhere more details about her travel plans, start date, etc.
Many of you may not think much about personal security. Many may think that the few bad things that happen in life are just bad luck and completely out of our control. But our own decisions play greatly into the risks we face and how we manage them. Whether people like to admit it or not, or simply dismiss the risk as "statistically small" or "acceptable", there are bad people out there, and they read message boards too. So when some of us see someone painting a target on themselves, no matter that that target may be small in the scope of things and that nothing is likely to happen, we still speak up.
I think your comments about personal security and the internet are right on. I myself may have overstated some things about my thru-hike while still trying to be circumspect. However, I plan to use a different trail-name, one that never appears on this thread or the internet until it's too late to be tracked back to me and I haven't set a firm departure date or city. I won't be posting updates live from the trail saying where I am or my destinations. I'm also reading a couple of books I highly recommend. One is "Fight Like a Girl...and Win" by Lori Hartman Gervasi. Another is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker. Another is "Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected" by Jim Harmer. This is part of my preparation for a solo thru-hike as a female.
It is true that women are more likely to be attacked then men are, and that men are nearly always the culprits. It's also true, from my experience and what I've been reading, that being aware of your environment and the people/animals in it, and vigorously defending your personal space (by running/leaving/yelling if possible) will help a woman or man avoid many unpleasant situations before they even start. Another key is for women to forget all that socially nice stuff we're trained into and be willing to be rude and loudly tell somebody to BACK OFF! This works better if there are witnesses, obviously, or a safer place to run to.
Based on what I've been reading so far, the risk of being harmed by men you know is MUCH higher than by a stranger, in normal society. But, on the trail??? I don't know. I just know I will prepare my mind and body as much as possible and try to be very aware of escape routes and where people are around me (to avoid them or to approach them for safety).
I read "Becoming Odyssa" and I just wanted to tell her to yell at him, to not let him sign the register for her, to join a group for a while and tell them how he bothered her. In the the end she ditched her stalker, but she let it go on way too long. I think youth and inexperience could have contributed to her unwillingness to tell him off, but women in our culture are trained to be nice at all costs and age doesn't necessarily make a woman more likely to reject that training, even to protect her safety.
Thanks for a very interesting thread. Oh, and I almost always hike alone, but I leave an itinerary and pre-arrange a check-in time that if I haven't checked in by then means call for help. I read that in the book "98.6 Degrees, The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive" by Cody Lundgren. I'm actually trying to figure out the best way to keep up this practice while hiking the AT. I figure I could at least arrange to check in at a shelter with a group I trust for the evening and if I don't show, they know something's wrong....but I also know things change and I wouldn't want a false alert going out just because I took a nap or weather came up and I am running late. Any suggestions on a good way to do this on the AT?
Thanks!
modiyooch
11-06-2011, 21:45
So, the whole point of being a parent is to worry?? When does it end? Maybe our worries are our own problem, and have nothing to do with their lives in the least. I was raised by two professional Worriers. After I turned 18 they worried. After I turned 21 they worried. Now, upon reflection, I see all their worry as a sort of selfish attachment, a couple degrees away from Control.I give my Mother alot of credit. Although she did worry, she did not interfere. She drove me to the trail and let me walk away. It would have been an injustice to me otherwise.
Sierra Echo
11-06-2011, 22:00
Yall keep talking about young women. What about older women. Take Grandma Gatewood for instance. How many on here would have discouraged her thru hiking alone?
Tipi Walter
11-06-2011, 22:49
Yall keep talking about young women. What about older women. Take Grandma Gatewood for instance. How many on here would have discouraged her thru hiking alone?
Or Dorothy Laker.
SassyWindsor
11-07-2011, 09:42
"He is bad that will not take advice, but he is a thousand times worse that takes every advice"
Or Dorothy Laker.
Dorothy Laker's stories in the 2 volume set "Hiking the Appalachian Trail" are by far my favorite. She was really an amazing hiker.
I enjoyed her accounts better than Earl S's.
MedicineWoman2012
11-07-2011, 10:49
I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given! I am a 39yo mom of a 9yo boy that lives to set up his next shelter along the white blazes. I would like to say the trail has taught him so much about self reliance and respecting mother nature. He may forget all of the wonderful gifts he gets from his friends or family on holidays but he will never forget witnessing a mother and her cubs settling in for the evening in their den or meeting the biggest electrical storm after setting up shelter just past a Gregorys Bald. I owe alot of thanks to the folks her on WB for all of their insight and years of making it magical for women and men of all ages. I can truly say he would perfer to goto the AT for a section hike than a summer vacation at Disney World! Thats hands down..makes me very proud of him and the skills have learned thru years of hiking with him in my back pack (began it at 6mths old when he could barely talk or sit up on day hikes). I have yet to experience an encounter in the woods that I couldnt handle better than in the city. As a medic in a high crime area (Durham, NC) I can honestly say its much safer with him on the AT :)
MedicineWoman2012
11-07-2011, 10:58
Ooops...forgot to mention we go at it alone but we do not announce our where abouts to everyone thru out the hike or prior.
Red Beard
11-07-2011, 11:47
I think your comments about personal security and the internet are right on. I myself may have overstated some things about my thru-hike while still trying to be circumspect. However, I plan to use a different trail-name, one that never appears on this thread or the internet until it's too late to be tracked back to me and I haven't set a firm departure date or city. I won't be posting updates live from the trail saying where I am or my destinations. I'm also reading a couple of books I highly recommend. One is "Fight Like a Girl...and Win" by Lori Hartman Gervasi. Another is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker. Another is "Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected" by Jim Harmer. This is part of my preparation for a solo thru-hike as a female.
It is true that women are more likely to be attacked then men are, and that men are nearly always the culprits. It's also true, from my experience and what I've been reading, that being aware of your environment and the people/animals in it, and vigorously defending your personal space (by running/leaving/yelling if possible) will help a woman or man avoid many unpleasant situations before they even start. Another key is for women to forget all that socially nice stuff we're trained into and be willing to be rude and loudly tell somebody to BACK OFF! This works better if there are witnesses, obviously, or a safer place to run to.
Based on what I've been reading so far, the risk of being harmed by men you know is MUCH higher than by a stranger, in normal society. But, on the trail??? I don't know. I just know I will prepare my mind and body as much as possible and try to be very aware of escape routes and where people are around me (to avoid them or to approach them for safety).
I read "Becoming Odyssa" and I just wanted to tell her to yell at him, to not let him sign the register for her, to join a group for a while and tell them how he bothered her. In the the end she ditched her stalker, but she let it go on way too long. I think youth and inexperience could have contributed to her unwillingness to tell him off, but women in our culture are trained to be nice at all costs and age doesn't necessarily make a woman more likely to reject that training, even to protect her safety.
Thanks for a very interesting thread. Oh, and I almost always hike alone, but I leave an itinerary and pre-arrange a check-in time that if I haven't checked in by then means call for help. I read that in the book "98.6 Degrees, The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive" by Cody Lundgren. I'm actually trying to figure out the best way to keep up this practice while hiking the AT. I figure I could at least arrange to check in at a shelter with a group I trust for the evening and if I don't show, they know something's wrong....but I also know things change and I wouldn't want a false alert going out just because I took a nap or weather came up and I am running late. Any suggestions on a good way to do this on the AT?
Thanks!
It is not true that women are more likely to be attacked. I sincerely wish the PC crowd would wake-up and actually read actual published statistics, before trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. That fact remains that more men than women are attacked and killed in violent crimes each year. Yet, the PC crowd wants to ignore it and continues to spout FUD.
MissMagnolia
11-07-2011, 12:18
It is not true that women are more likely to be attacked. I sincerely wish the PC crowd would wake-up and actually read actual published statistics, before trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. That fact remains that more men than women are attacked and killed in violent crimes each year. Yet, the PC crowd wants to ignore it and continues to spout FUD.
I'm sorry, I don't know what FUD means, and suddenly I'm in a PC crowd for saying something I read in a book about violence towards women and how to prevent it? I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty or doubt. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only woman who is concerned about my personal safety. For any of those women or men who want to be more aware and have a little more say over their own personal safety, I highly recommend those books. Whether there are other statistics, I don't know, but it's not PC, it's only resonable to take steps to try to ensure my personal safety, and I think that applies to anybody, but discounting the safety concerns that women in particular have is not helpful. Now that I'm more aware of safety steps I can take I have fewer fears, uncertainty and doubt and can better enjoy my hike, which is my goal.
MissMagnolia
11-07-2011, 13:20
It is not true that women are more likely to be attacked. I sincerely wish the PC crowd would wake-up and actually read actual published statistics, before trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. That fact remains that more men than women are attacked and killed in violent crimes each year. Yet, the PC crowd wants to ignore it and continues to spout FUD.
Red Beard, I assume you're a man? I believe that until we face reality and know what we're up against, we can't deal with it, fix it, or prevent it. That is the reason I'm going to put these numbers up. This is not to spread fear, but there is a reason for women in particular to know what they're up against so they can be prepared. This is in normal life and has nothing to do with a hiking trail, so the information and suggestions are useful to all women, everywhere, even those who would never want to hike, but not specific to women hiking solo or in groups.
Here we go. Even if men are more likely to be attacked and killed, here are the stats about women as of 2007. There IS a problem of violence towards women by men. Most acts of aggression towards men or women are done by men.
1 in 12 women are stalked in their lifetime. That's even higher for college women.
The FBI states there is a forcible rape every five minutes.
1 in 6 American women has either been raped or it was attempted, with an estimate that 1 in 4 women will be raped over their lifetime.
73% of rape and sexual assault attacks on women were by non-strangers.
85% of rape and sexual assaults were by unarmed attackers.
So, maybe women don't die more then men, but there are certainly good reasons for a woman to be alert, aware, educated about the risks and also about ways to mitigate the risks. I think if women and parents of young women were to be prepared ahead of time and learn what's in these books along with taking self defense classes that they can lower the risks for themselves or their daughters and enjoy a safer hike and life in general, with LESS fear. Ignoring the reality doesn't make you safer, and stating reality isn't PC. But the reality is NO REASON for women to cower away and not participate in life, you just have to know what you're up against and be prepared for if it ever does happen to you. And, BTW, the stuff I read about in these books about being aware of your environment could just as easily save your life from an animal attack, terrorist attack and maybe even natural disasters, so I for one am very glad to have read these books.
Okay, off soapbox now.
Red Beard
11-07-2011, 13:30
Again, more FUD. 1 in 6 women raped, is complete bull****. It's a made-up number from NOW (National Organization for Women). Seriously, can you find a source for it? Also, where's your source for a "forcible" rape every 5 minutes? What exactly does that mean, anyway? Is it women only, are we talking about men in prison, are these women in the US, or is it in fact women in African nations? Additionally, what constitutes as "rape's" definition is being broadened to include things such as both people go out and have 1 drink, get sexually intimate, the woman regrets it in the morning. Under the new definition for rape, if the woman regrets it, that's now rape.
I can't believe I'm actually having to deal with this crap on WB. It used to be that I could go into the woods, or log on to WB and not have to deal with this ****. Now it's WOMEN ARE VICTIMS everywhere 24x7. I'm done with WB.
Red Beard, I assume you're a man? I believe that until we face reality and know what we're up against, we can't deal with it, fix it, or prevent it. That is the reason I'm going to put these numbers up. This is not to spread fear, but there is a reason for women in particular to know what they're up against so they can be prepared. This is in normal life and has nothing to do with a hiking trail, so the information and suggestions are useful to all women, everywhere, even those who would never want to hike, but not specific to women hiking solo or in groups.
Here we go. Even if men are more likely to be attacked and killed, here are the stats about women as of 2007. There IS a problem of violence towards women by men. Most acts of aggression towards men or women are done by men.
1 in 12 women are stalked in their lifetime. That's even higher for college women.
The FBI states there is a forcible rape every five minutes.
1 in 6 American women has either been raped or it was attempted, with an estimate that 1 in 4 women will be raped over their lifetime.
73% of rape and sexual assault attacks on women were by non-strangers.
85% of rape and sexual assaults were by unarmed attackers.
So, maybe women don't die more then men, but there are certainly good reasons for a woman to be alert, aware, educated about the risks and also about ways to mitigate the risks. I think if women and parents of young women were to be prepared ahead of time and learn what's in these books along with taking self defense classes that they can lower the risks for themselves or their daughters and enjoy a safer hike and life in general, with LESS fear. Ignoring the reality doesn't make you safer, and stating reality isn't PC. But the reality is NO REASON for women to cower away and not participate in life, you just have to know what you're up against and be prepared for if it ever does happen to you. And, BTW, the stuff I read about in these books about being aware of your environment could just as easily save your life from an animal attack, terrorist attack and maybe even natural disasters, so I for one am very glad to have read these books.
Okay, off soapbox now.
Red Beard
11-07-2011, 13:40
Get your facts straight!
99.999% of American combat deaths and casualties (historically)
http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
http://thewall-usa.com/women.asp
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm
97%+ since the 1st Gulf War (DOD)
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/female.aspx
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm
“The numbers of wounded women and female amputees, meanwhile, are considerably less than their male counterparts–at least 378 wounded versus 17,490; 11 amputees versus over 400–but they are historic for modern day warfare.”
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive
A Pentagon study published in March on the mental health of soldiers returning from deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan found that more than one- third of U.S. soldiers received psychological counseling. A statistic buried in the study: 23.6 percent of women reported a mental health concern compared with 18.6 percent of men.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive
(currently, women are not even required by law to register for selective service, but even mentally challenged and physically disabled men are, in addition to all the healthy ones)
Men are 94% of industrial deaths and accident (NIOSH)
Even though murder is the leading workplace cause of death for women, a statistic often used by gender feminists, that number is only a percentage of the 6% of workplace deaths that women comprise. In other words, a fraction of a small fraction.
One example:
Between 1890 and 1917, two hundred thirty thousand (230,000) [male] railroad workers were killed. One of the most dangerous jobs was “brakeman.” Each car had to be stopped manually and it was the brakeman’s job to stop four or five cars. The brakeman walked on top of the RR cars and turned a wheel, putting the brakes “on” for each car. It was not unheard of for a brakeman to be thrown from the top of a RR car.
Source: Freight Trains, Modern Marvels, The History Channel, 2006
Men are:
76% of homicide victims – DOJ
80% of Suicide victims – CDC
# Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
# Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
# 24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
In other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths in 2001 were male.
also:
“Suicide ranks 11th among causes of death in the US, with 30,622 completed suicides in 2001. It is the 3rd leading cause of death among people 15 to 24 yr. Men ≥ 75 yr have the highest rate of death by suicide. Among all age groups, male deaths by suicide outnumber female deaths by 4:1.”
Source: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec15/ch205/ch205a.html
“The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father.
Source: http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm
Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims.
Male rape has been called “The most closely guarded secret of American prisons.” (Weiss and Friar 1974 (http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/69/2/39.extract))
There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes (http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/RapeInPrison.html) per year in American prisons and jails.
Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita)compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.
According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Crime_Victimization_Survey) estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.
Other facts regarding men and rape:
* 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion.http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf
*94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09.http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf
* Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf
* 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It’s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia.http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf
A woman is the party filing for divorce in about 66% of divorce cases.
“How often was it that many more of women wanted the divorce more than the men?
2/3. The same as the amount responsible for divorce filings. And yet another study of divorced couples found that the majority of divorced wives and husbands both agreed it was the wife who wanted out.”
Source: http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2006/07/will-this-marriage-last-who-wants-out.html (http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2006/07/will-this-marriage-last-who-wants-out.html)
Women receive custody in about 84% of child custody cases.
In the spring of 2002, an estimated 13.4 million parents had custody of 21.5 million children under 21 years of age whose other parent lived somewhere else. About 5 of every 6 custodial parents were mothers (84.4 percent) and 1in 6 were fathers (15.6 percent), proportions statistically unchanged since 1994
(Table A).
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf
According to Los Angeles divorce consultant Jayne Major:
“Divorced men are often devastated by the loss of their children. It’s a little known fact that in the United States men initiate only a small number of the divorces involving children. Most of the men I deal with never saw their divorces coming, and they are often treated very unfairly by the family courts.’”
Paternity fraud is rampant in the U.S.
30% of those named as fathers who test for paternity find they are not the biological father.
Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48871xo (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48871)
Not only is all this imbalance around marriage and children unfair to men, we must also consider that the damaged inflicted on fatherless children is staggering:
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes – 10 times the average. (Rainbows for All God’s Children)
70% of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Sept. 1988)
85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Fulton Co. Georgia, Texas Dept. of Correction)
Source: http://fallenfathers.blogspot.com/2007/03/children-without-fathers-statistics.html
Of the top fifteen leading causes of death, men lead in 12 categories, are tied in two and trail in one. Even though more women die of heart disease each year, men die of heart disease many years earlier.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/finaldeaths03_tables.pdf
http://www.sentencingproject.org/Admin/Documents/publications/inc_factsaboutprisons.pdf
There is blatant anti-male discrimination in the criminal justice system and the sentencing disparity between men and women exceeds that between whites and any other minority.
http://ncfm.org/2011/04/issues/criminal-sentencing/
Avg sentences for crime by gender:
Female – 18.51 months
Male – 51.52 months
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf
“Judge bashes Probation Department for gender bias in favor of leniency for girls”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-12-01/news/27082827_1_gender-bias-probation-officers-probation-department
The 2006 United States’ rate of incarceration of 751 inmates per 100,000 population is the highest reported rate in the world, well ahead of the Russian rate of 628 per 100,000.
93% of the prison population is male with over 60% having no High School education. America has now passed Russia as the country that has the largest percentage of its population incarcerated, yet we still claim to be the freest country on earth.
The number of persons on probation and parole has been growing dramatically along with institutional populations. There are now 7.2 million Americans incarcerated or on probation or parole, an increase of more than 290 percent since 1980.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/
The problem of sentencing disparities is compounded by an epidemic of false accusations:
205 (and growing) wrongly convicted people have been exonerated by DNA evidence since the beginning of the Innocence Project.
204 of the wrongly convicted were men.
Most of them were falsely imprisoned for rape.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
As we saw in the Duke Lacrosse rape case fiasco, false accusers are rarely prosecuted and when they are it is only as a misdemeanor (at most), while rape itself is vigorously prosecuted as a felony. The Duke false accuser, Crystal Gayle Mangum went on to commit assault, arson and finally murder before authorities made a good faith intervention.
One attorney speaking at premiere for the movie, After Innocence, estimates that there are between 20,000 and 100,000 wrongly convicted still in prison.
Valid research puts the estimated false rape reporting rate at 41%
Source: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html
Capital Punishment Targets Men Almost Exclusively
Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, there have been over 1,200 executions in the United States. Eleven of them, or less than 1%, were women. This stands in stark contrast considering women commit, by DOJ estimates, 10% of all murders, are involved in 35% of all domestic homicides (are involved often means they get other people to kill for them) and nearly 30% of murders where the victim was another family member.
We hear a lot about the historical oppression of women’s voting rights, but few if any women who were born in the 20th century were every without the right to vote in their lifetime, upon reaching legal voting age. On the other hand, around 2400 hundred California men (42% of CA men killed in Vietnam) gave their life for their country without being allowed by their country to vote. The exact number is 2,381. Four of the twelve Iwo Jimo flag raisers died for their country without their country ever allowing them the right to vote.
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blumhorst/2005/blumhorst052805.htm
http://www.thewall-usa.com/names.asp
“The youngest Vietnam KIA is believed to be Dan Bullock USMC, at 15 years old.
At least 5 men killed in Vietnam were 16 years old.
At least 12 men killed in Vietnam were 17 years old.
There are 120 persons who listed foreign countries as their home of record.
At least 25,000 of those killed were 20 years old or younger.
The oldest man killed was 62 years old.”
If you do a full count on all the men in the 20th century who died for their country without being allowed to vote the numbers will be staggering.
In America there are over 270 women’s commissions, but only one for men in New Hampshire.
There are over 700 Women’s Studies programs on colleges and universities throughout the United States teaching thousands or tens of thousands of classes from the gender feminist perspective, but not one program or class, teaching men’s studies from the masculist perspective.
Men are more than a third of the victims of domestic violence (26% of intimate partner homicides), yet are denied service at most tax payer funded domestic violence shelters.
In contrast, women get every veteran’s benefit a man does, yet comprise less than 3% of combat deaths or casualties and a woman makes the cover of Time magazine (person of the year/2003 standing in front of two men.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2003/200312225a.jpg
CDC lists male victims of domestic violence at more than 34%, but men injured in Iraq (and all other men) are by law in California excluded from domestic violence shelter services. Only one shelter in Lancaster, CA accepts men and it has been extensively harassed for doing so.
Men are subject to extreme discrimination in healthcare.
Men today die on average 6 years sooner than women. In 1920 the variance was one year. The death rates for prostate and breast cancer are similar, but because men die of other things more frequently-accidents ,war, heart disease etc., there are fewer men left to die of prostate cancer. This is akin to saying people from a nation like Zimbabwe are immune to Alzheimer’s- but in fact they die of other things before they can get old enough to contract Alzheimer’s.
To date, there are numerous federal offices on women’s health, and not a single one for men. Also, the lion’s share of gender specific medical research is done on behalf of women.
The wage gap myth based on the “comparable worth” paradigm:
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/04/23/the-gender-feminist-wage-gap-myth-appears-to-be-growing-legs/
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/04/23/gender-feminist-wage-gap-myth-appears-to-be-growing-legs-part-ii/
While men make more money than women on average, women control and spend vastly more money than men.
http://www.amazon.com/Pocketbook-Power-Hearts-Coveted-Consumer/dp/0071418601/sr=1-1/qid=1167804358/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6478055-3977644?ie=UTF8&s=books
or
http://tinyurl.com/sf342
Pocketbook Power: How to Reach the Hearts and Minds of Today’s Most Coveted Consumer – Women
Bernice Kanner
From the Back Cover
Women as an economically disadvantaged group is a myth that negatively affects men.
Not too long ago, legendary adman David Ogilvy chided his peers for talking down to women. He berated those who ignored women or discounted them, misconstruing men’s higher paychecks to mean greater spending clout. And he was right. According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, women–who comprise just over 51 percent of the U.S. population, making them the largest consumer segment in the country–control six trillion dollars in buying power annually. Statistics show that:
Women make 88 percent of all U.S. retail purchases. Some experts even predict that, by 2020, women will control most of the money in America.
Women control 88 percent of all purchases.
Women handle 75 percent of family finances. 43 percent of those with assets over $500,000 are women.
Women influence two out of every three of the 3 trillion dollars spent in the U.S. each year!
From the Sisters4Sisters Yellow Pages:
Women are starting businesses at twice the rate of men.
One out of every 11 American women owns her own business.
Currently there are over 10.6 million women-owned businesses employing 19.1 million people and generating $2.5 trillion in sales.
Women make or influence over 85% of all purchasing decisions.
In 2010, women have the majority of wealth in America.
Men pay the majority of social security taxes and are outlived by six years by women, but the government makes no fair adjustment to how those funds are distributed.
In summary, men experience systematic discrimination in parenting, domestic violence policies, education, criminal sentencing, paternity, forced labor, military conscription, public health policies, genital integrity, false accusations, reproductive rights, portrayal by the media and in the coverage of their issues by the news media.
Misandry is often expressed through racism.
From Scottsboro An American Tragedy.
“The protection of white womanhood, it might be the pivot around all Southern culture. Of the 5,000 people who were lynched from 1880 to 1940, most were black men accused of raping or sexually assaulting white women.” – Robin Kelly, Historian
From American Man
From the back cover of the DVD box:
“In 1931, two white women stepped from a boxcar in Paint Rock, Alabama to make a shocking accusation: they had been raped by nine black teenagers on the train.”
and
“- a poor white woman whose lie lends her respectability…”
PBS Home Video
American Experience, a production of WGBH Boston
Academy Award Nominee for Best Documentary
Scottsboro An American Tragedy
The case that sparked the civil rights movement
2001 WGBH Educational Foundation
2005 Artwork PBS
MissMagnolia
11-07-2011, 13:59
Red Beard, I don't know where your anger at me comes from and I fail to see why you would be done with WB for my innocent post? There is no reason for you to yell at me on here, so I think you have other issues going on with women. I am a woman. I have been attacked by a man in the past, NOT on a hiking trail. I had concerns and fears about my safety while hiking alone, not only because I'm a woman, but because of my own and many other women's experiences. I believe that parents fearing for their children safety is natural, and women fearing for their own safety is justified. I believe that knowing risks and preparing for them INCREASES my safety and LESSENS my fear.
I quoted stats from the book "Fight Like a Girl and Win" which was published in 2007. I don't know where she got her stats and honestly, based on your over reaction, I am much less interested in what you have to say since you seem to have a bone to pick with women (my own impression based on our limited exchanges right here). I sincerely hope not to run into you while hiking or ever.
Lone Wolf
11-07-2011, 14:03
seems red beard has issues with women. he'll get the thread shut down so just ignore him. he ain't gonna leave either
MissMagnolia
11-07-2011, 15:20
seems red beard has issues with women. he'll get the thread shut down so just ignore him. he ain't gonna leave either
Thanks Lone Wolf. I am new to WB and still trying to figure my way around here. You make me feel a little better about the people on here. Is this website always so grouchy? I've read other threads and phew, not very welcoming. I hoped the women's forum might be a little better, and you've helped with that, so thank you again. I guess I should read about what gets a thread shut down, because I don't know.
Nutbrown
11-07-2011, 15:25
not everyone is so grumpy, just seems to be the definite hot button issues. There is quite a bit of really good info on wb. asking aboput technical how to and advice on gear... the not so personal issues, will get you the goods. Welcome to wb!
MissMagnolia
11-07-2011, 15:57
not everyone is so grumpy, just seems to be the definite hot button issues. There is quite a bit of really good info on wb. asking aboput technical how to and advice on gear... the not so personal issues, will get you the goods. Welcome to wb!
Thanks Nutbrown. I have been lurking for a while but still haven't figured out what all the hot button issues are. Guess I stumbled right into one. Sorry if I offended anybody else. It doesn't change my opinion and experiences, but I guess I didn't lurk long enough to learn the safe topics. Maybe I'll try again somewhere else. (Problem is, I sometimes love a good fight. I'm sure I'm as grouchy as everybody else, which is why I like to solo hike and get away from all this people drama kind of stuff).
2012 can't come soon enough, and to get back to the very original topic, my Dad is thrilled I'm doing this solo thru-hike (he knows my adventurous and stubborn temperament would never succumb to fears about safety). He says he's living vicariously through me and I'm thrilled to inspire my dad by following my own obsession. He has even begun walking greater distances instead of driving just from being inspired by some of the AT books I've lent him, and may even join me for a little hiking on my thru. Even though my Mom was very fearful about me not being feminine enough and she hated me playing sports, my Dad has always supported me in all my sports, cross country moves, rapid response training and incidents, and now this. He trusts me to do my research and he knows I am tough and if I mess up I will learn from it. Thank GOD for my Dad and his attitude. If more Dads were like my Dad I think more girls would do all sorts of physical activities.
Hi MissMagnolia
Welcome to WB. You are doing good here. I am a new member either here. Here is the thing: If you expected the WhiteBlaze to be totally free of unconortable and sometimes angry individuals then you might be slighty dissapointed but in longer run I found WB comunity a caring, helpful community with the least amount of prejudice toward others.
Actually I fonud your answers very kind and smooth compare to mine when I satrted here. I am not as patient as you. and my posts certainly shows that.
Have I ever been in a website that is completely homogen and hassle free? no
Is this website one of the best ? yes
Did I find our friends answer to your post angry for no obvious reason?Yes but not offensive just angry.
You will find most of the people here with a very good backpack of Common Sense, Don't worry.
atmilkman
11-07-2011, 16:01
Thanks Lone Wolf. I am new to WB and still trying to figure my way around here. You make me feel a little better about the people on here. Is this website always so grouchy? I've read other threads and phew, not very welcoming. I hoped the women's forum might be a little better, and you've helped with that, so thank you again. I guess I should read about what gets a thread shut down, because I don't know.
I have only been on here a short time myself and you will find out as I have there are a lot of really great people on here. Helpful people. Just really cool people. And, then there are the others. When I first got in here someone told me WhiteBlaze was like an AA meeting. Take what you need and leave the rest. My first connection with the AT came in 1973. Although I've done a lot of hiking and backpacking I still learn quite a bit on here. Use this site for what it was designed for. You'll soon learn who you can talk to and who ain't worth responding to, and it really doesn't take that long. Welcome to WhiteBlaze MissMagnolia. Don't be discouraged. Have a nice day.
coach lou
11-07-2011, 17:52
On November 4 2011, I logged on to a subject from Amanita about " the prejudice...". I've only been on this site for 2 months. That Thread was in the side bar for what I thought was open to all. She was talking about a quote from a man and did not specify that she wanted responces from only women, so I responded. The more I read over the last 4 days... are we men ALLOWED to go on these women only threads or is WB an open hiker forum except for Women only threads, 'cause again I'm not new to the AT but new to WB. Could somebody help me out here.
Wise Old Owl
11-07-2011, 18:17
At the top of all sections is a sticky or thread that doesn't move - Attrol who owns the site posted this
The purpose of this forum is for all females to ask questions and gather information from each other.
Currently this is an open forum. So with that in mind, if you are a male reading this, please refrain from making rude, crude or otherwise distracting posts here.
Any poster that gets out of line will be warned either on the thread or via private message. If the behavior continues the poster will be banned from posting in this forum permanently.
To clue in those who don't understand this whole "ladies forum" thing. If you are on a page where the background is pink, what you are reading is part of the ladies forum. As a previous poster stated, the spirit of this is men can participate, but please "check your testosterone at the door."
The purpose of this forum is to solicit responses from female hikers, about female specific issues. Topics range including feminine hygiene, trail safety, getting daughters into hiking, finding partners who are also female, ect. So to come into a forum for female hikers and preach that a lady "needs a man to protect her" would be a breach of what I consider to be the general philosophy of this sub forum. I consider that philosophy to be that women can enjoy hiking in every aspect that a man can, and this forum is here for ladies to support each other in that endeavor.
I also consider one of those aspects to be hiking solo, as I have found an independance and joy in solo hiking that I consider unattainable while part of a group. Never on Whiteblaze as a whole (until one particular post on this thread) have I seen solo hiking by a male berated as "too dangerous." On multiple occasions, however, I have seen people refer to females going solo as being "in danger." And I took offense to the statement I bolded in my quotation of FatMan's post because it made a generalization about females hiking alone that is untrue, and represents an attitude that prevents females from participating in this sport we love so much.
So I brought the discussion too the female forums, to talk about it with primarily other females. I had no intention of hijacking the original thread (which I did prevent), and no intention of discussing winter hiking, female or otherwise (it seems to me that winter hiking hijacked my thread for a bit).
So I hope that this explains both what the female forum is and why I chose to have this discussion here, where I hoped it would be less exposed to the male members of white blaze. Now the fact that female discussions are part of the "latest posts" feed and can be linked to in other threads has apparently drawn in an element who would not normally and perhaps should not participate in this forum.
coach lou
11-07-2011, 18:33
I guess I am now clued in, and will choose my queries more carefully. Thank You. I will now go talk to Tipi about our warm & toastie Puma Sleeping bags.
Cookerhiker
11-07-2011, 21:32
I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given! I am a 39yo mom of a 9yo boy that lives to set up his next shelter along the white blazes. I would like to say the trail has taught him so much about self reliance and respecting mother nature. He may forget all of the wonderful gifts he gets from his friends or family on holidays but he will never forget witnessing a mother and her cubs settling in for the evening in their den or meeting the biggest electrical storm after setting up shelter just past a Gregorys Bald. I owe alot of thanks to the folks her on WB for all of their insight and years of making it magical for women and men of all ages. I can truly say he would perfer to goto the AT for a section hike than a summer vacation at Disney World! Thats hands down..makes me very proud of him and the skills have learned thru years of hiking with him in my back pack (began it at 6mths old when he could barely talk or sit up on day hikes). ....
You are an awesome mom!:) And you have an awesome son!
When I thruhiked the Long Trail in '07 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=205059), I ended a day at Stratton Pond and was enjoying the water after having taken a swim. Heard voices and 2 9 year-old kids - boy and girl twins - came running up. They were so excited to see the frogs squatting on the logs and salamanders floating near shore. It was clear they had been outdoors a lot and loved it. I was so touched, my eyes actually welled up - that never happens to me.
Tallking to the parents as they came by, I learned all their family vacations were camping and backpacking. And I thought the same as you - so much better than Disney World.:rolleyes:
jenpharr
11-07-2011, 22:06
The trail does not discriminate. Only people do. Women are capable of doing anything on a long-distance trail that men can do. My journeys were made possible through the support and encouragement of the men in my life. Women are capable of incredible accomplishments on and off the trail - if they have the right people, male and female, to help them along the way.
I don't reckon we can identify and solve the problem of sexism in one internet thread, but from my experience in heated internet discussions, this is actually more measured and rational than this sort of thing might be in other (non-hiker) forums. I also appreciate the recommendation about the books by Dorothy Laker, will check those out.
As a female hiker myself, I figure that I've got the liability of shorter legs, but the benefit of extra insulation, compared to typical male hikers. Physical differences will all shake out in the end. Of course, I've always been discouraged from heading out into the woods alone, more so than my brother has. That hasn't seemed to have any effect, though (my head is just as thick as his). My loved ones worry more about me, than his worry about him, and I wish that wasn't true. I do what I can to educate them that the AT is generally safer than most other places a person might be walking in this country.
At the same time, I remember. Julianne Williams. Lollie Winans. Rebecca Wight. Claudia Brenner. Janice Balza. Susan Ramsay. Meredith Emerson. These aren't the only people who have been killed on or near the AT, but these are the people whose stories hit home for me. It's very rare, but it happens enough-- when someone is murdered on the A.T., they are more likely to be female than male. Again, it's very rare, but it's out there, and I have this extra weight to carry, some extra degree of caution I have to exercise as a female solo hiker.
It's not going to keep me from hiking, and I don't think it should do so for any woman. But it's a hard thing to wrap my brain around, and if someone doesn't really know what to do or say about it, or what kind of advice to give about it, I'll cut them some slack.
In the words of my mother "Carry a synthetic bag and don't night hike. Hypothermia and falling off a cliff are the two things you can easily and actively prevent. Everything else you deal with as it comes, and you're smart enough to do that."
foreversuperawesome
02-01-2013, 00:01
We bring them along and teach them, we can do it too! Less parents think of letting their daughter hiking or join outdoor clubs since its a more "manly" thing but its all wrong.
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
Old thread but I'll comment. Do you always get annoyed with everyone's attitudes and opinions? Do you always give SO MUCH WEIGHT to everyone's opinion? SO WHAT! Move on. There will always be others with opposing viewpoints. SO WHAT! Why give a shart what everyone else thinks? Don't let everyone else's BS opinions affect you so negatively. Don't let yourself get mired down in someone else's mud! Go out and hike as a female or promote female hiking. Make a difference if you feel you must!
my observation is young women on the AT tend to attract young men on the AT, like a moth on a lightbulb. The young women rarely hike alone for long.
This psychological support, companionship/friendship/bonding will definitely help young women continue on the hike, on days when some might feel like quitting. There is motivation in trying to stay with the "group", not being a quitter, not leaving behind their newly made friends just to go back to their former life. It's true of any thru hiker, male or female, having friends on the trail provides motivation for them to continue and not stop.
Hi, treading lightly, I hope,
I am the father of a 23-year-old daughter. I would be concerned if she wanted to solo hike the AT.
Not because she's not strong - she is capable and tough and skilled and smart and driven - she'd be more likely to finish than me. And I have a lot more experience.
My concern is safety from men on the trail. I know that the vast majority of males on the trail would be gentlemen, and that the majority would not hesitate to intervene when appropriate.
But I know the AT can be very isolated at times. And there are some bad apples in the world.
So, I would worry. Its my prerogative as a dad to always worry.
I would encourage her to take a friend. I would make sure she had some (multi-use) bear spray, and I would give her my multipoint safety awareness talk that she could give better than I could. 'Cause I'm the dad.
And I would be proud of her.
Smoky Spoon
09-19-2015, 22:57
I am not so sure that it is us girls caring that someone may say something we dislike, honestly as women we hear crap from the day we are born, but more of the disrespectful factor often shown to women on here and other forums. This is clearly on a female hiking forum and something I have noticed happening a lot on here. In the sports bra section, to what we recommend to each other for help in urination on the trail, to this thread, etc. For whatever reason some, I repeat, SOME men feel compelled to comment. They use all sorts of tactics as if trying to justify why their comment should be accepted from "my wife says..."; to "my daughter...." or "a man here but thought you might..." and so on and so on. If women wanted the opinion of men then we would say hey guys....or not post on a female thread only....contrary to what many of you men might think, women are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves, discussing things with other women, and drawing their own conclusions as well as forming their own opinions. Another woman on here said it beautifully, we do not need all the "mansplaining"....we were born with brains just as men were. Please respect that we will use them or learn from our experience just as we allow you. We do not go on your threads discussing jock itch, or whatever it is you discuss because not only do we not care but we respect your privacy. I have read this thread and have heard the many differences between men and women, in my opinion, the biggest difference between men and women is women comprehend and respect what boundaries are and men have no concept they exist.
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
Old thread but I'll comment. Do you always get annoyed with everyone's attitudes and opinions? Do you always give SO MUCH WEIGHT to everyone's opinion? SO WHAT! Move on. There will always be others with opposing viewpoints. SO WHAT! Why give a shart what everyone else thinks? Don't let everyone else's BS opinions affect you so negatively. Don't let yourself get mired down in someone else's mud! Go out and hike as a female or promote female hiking. Make a difference if you feel you must!
illabelle
09-19-2015, 23:17
Having read similar posts from SmokySpoon on other recent threads, I felt the need to balance things out a bit:
First, I want to point out that I'm not aware of a "men's only forum" or any restrictions on who can post in the jock itch threads.
Second, my husband doesn't have a WB account, and is too bashful to ask questions, so I often read discussions about jock itch or similar male-oriented issues in order to learn for him. If I have a question about the topic, I'll ask.
Third, I don't mind men respectfully sharing information or asking questions on women's issues.
That's just me. I have no desire to debate it, just wanted to reassure the guys that not all women have the same perspective.
Smoky Spoon
09-19-2015, 23:38
Please MissMagnolia do not take anything said to you to heart by this person. I too am new to WB, (white blaze) and found many people, most of them men making comments that were either inappropriate or they inserted their opinions on female threads when they probably should not. It was very disconcerting at first and I nearly left because of it. But then I thought about it, because I never have ran from anything or anyone before and at 48 I am not going to start now. What I have discovered in staying is some of the men on here are pretty good guys. In a word, they are gentlemen, they have highly intelligent advice, a different perspective than maybe a female would and often does not pertain to the situation from a female point of view. However; as a female with two sons, albeit grown sons, it gives me some solid advice for them if the same subject regarding males comes up. I am the kind of women who like good advice, I am not the kind of woman who like men treading into territory that they are not invited to. I am especially the kind of woman who very much dislikes men who spout nonsensical, unintelligent and unprovoked comments that reveal their self, their true feelings towards women, and on a female forum at that. I am sorry this happened to you. Please know this tells you, me and every other woman on this site to never listen to this person, to never engage with person, and most of all to use the ignore button on this person. Sometimes as women we can try to explain how irritating it is when any one does this to us, on our own forums no less, but let's face it, a real man would never have went to the places he did. Some men on here are great, some men cross boundaries with good intentions and not realizing how frustrating it is to us, and well, some men, well, you give them enough rope, they hang their selves everytime. And that my friend is when the ignore button or reporting them comes in handy. Hugs.
I'm sorry, I don't know what FUD means, and suddenly I'm in a PC crowd for saying something I read in a book about violence towards women and how to prevent it? I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty or doubt. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only woman who is concerned about my personal safety. For any of those women or men who want to be more aware and have a little more say over their own personal safety, I highly recommend those books. Whether there are other statistics, I don't know, but it's not PC, it's only resonable to take steps to try to ensure my personal safety, and I think that applies to anybody, but discounting the safety concerns that women in particular have is not helpful. Now that I'm more aware of safety steps I can take I have fewer fears, uncertainty and doubt and can better enjoy my hike, which is my goal.
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 00:07
Oh please do not think I dislike all men commenting, in fact I have had several comments from men in other threads that I found helpful. And I told them so as I have told MissMagnolia in my previous post I must of been writing when you posted this and mentioned my name specifically. Which is why I am responding. As I said, I have no problem with men commenting and as you yourself said, even asking questions as you do for your husband I believe you said? Which makes my point I was trying to make to the men who post on the female forums. We do not know them, we do not break bread with them and even if we did we as ladies would certainly not discuss personal issues with them like jock itch, etc because it's inappropriate and implies an intimacy that does not exist. I made my posts because I was hoping to educate them on how it feels to SOME women when a man takes certain liberties especially on a female forum. You said men asking questions? I am sorry, I thought I made myself clear, I am referring to "mansplaining", any guy has a question regarding female issues, I hope he asks the female in his life, especially those of the intimate nature I specifically mentioned, bras, urination situations, etc. If your spouse is okay with you discussing such intimate discussions with men online you probably do not know then that is between the two of you but my spouse and I have a degree of respect that we discuss these issues with one another or members of the same sex. It keeps us close and others of the opposite sex less intimate with us. But that is our relationship. To each their own. Again, I reiterate I have no problem with male comments on less intimate subjects and not on female forums that do not take on the tone of women are weak, women need a man to protect her etc. I have no problem with males coming onto the forum for women asking legitimate questions, or possibly letting their wife come on and ask herself? As I am sure you would let your husband if the situation was reversed? I too do not feel the need to debate this either but more importantly, I do not care to be specifically mentioned, as well as implied I am against all men. Again to be clear, and to be fair and balanced, I have no problem with men asking legitimate questions or posting helpful advice, especially if they are invited to. But then wouldn't that be the reason for the post to be general and not in female only forums? Which we are discussing here. As for male only forums, I do not own the site nor moderate it, therefore I have no control over that but do know I have enough respect to not cross that boundary and invade their space.
Having read similar posts from SmokySpoon on other recent threads, I felt the need to balance things out a bit:
First, I want to point out that I'm not aware of a "men's only forum" or any restrictions on who can post in the jock itch threads.
Second, my husband doesn't have a WB account, and is too bashful to ask questions, so I often read discussions about jock itch or similar male-oriented issues in order to learn for him. If I have a question about the topic, I'll ask.
Third, I don't mind men respectfully sharing information or asking questions on women's issues.
That's just me. I have no desire to debate it, just wanted to reassure the guys that not all women have the same perspective.
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 00:33
Very well put....
To clue in those who don't understand this whole "ladies forum" thing. If you are on a page where the background is pink, what you are reading is part of the ladies forum. As a previous poster stated, the spirit of this is men can participate, but please "check your testosterone at the door."
The purpose of this forum is to solicit responses from female hikers, about female specific issues. Topics range including feminine hygiene, trail safety, getting daughters into hiking, finding partners who are also female, ect. So to come into a forum for female hikers and preach that a lady "needs a man to protect her" would be a breach of what I consider to be the general philosophy of this sub forum. I consider that philosophy to be that women can enjoy hiking in every aspect that a man can, and this forum is here for ladies to support each other in that endeavor.
I also consider one of those aspects to be hiking solo, as I have found an independance and joy in solo hiking that I consider unattainable while part of a group. Never on Whiteblaze as a whole (until one particular post on this thread) have I seen solo hiking by a male berated as "too dangerous." On multiple occasions, however, I have seen people refer to females going solo as being "in danger." And I took offense to the statement I bolded in my quotation of FatMan's post because it made a generalization about females hiking alone that is untrue, and represents an attitude that prevents females from participating in this sport we love so much.
So I brought the discussion too the female forums, to talk about it with primarily other females. I had no intention of hijacking the original thread (which I did prevent), and no intention of discussing winter hiking, female or otherwise (it seems to me that winter hiking hijacked my thread for a bit).
So I hope that this explains both what the female forum is and why I chose to have this discussion here, where I hoped it would be less exposed to the male members of white blaze. Now the fact that female discussions are part of the "latest posts" feed and can be linked to in other threads has apparently drawn in an element who would not normally and perhaps should not participate in this forum.
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 00:37
I have not heard of some of these names, there seems to be a lot of them. Thank, you for sharing, i
I would love to know more about their stories if you have the time? I read the story of inchworm, it was one to stick with you...she will be foremost on my mind certainly.
I don't reckon we can identify and solve the problem of sexism in one internet thread, but from my experience in heated internet discussions, this is actually more measured and rational than this sort of thing might be in other (non-hiker) forums. I also appreciate the recommendation about the books by Dorothy Laker, will check those out.
As a female hiker myself, I figure that I've got the liability of shorter legs, but the benefit of extra insulation, compared to typical male hikers. Physical differences will all shake out in the end. Of course, I've always been discouraged from heading out into the woods alone, more so than my brother has. That hasn't seemed to have any effect, though (my head is just as thick as his). My loved ones worry more about me, than his worry about him, and I wish that wasn't true. I do what I can to educate them that the AT is generally safer than most other places a person might be walking in this country.
At the same time, I remember. Julianne Williams. Lollie Winans. Rebecca Wight. Claudia Brenner. Janice Balza. Susan Ramsay. Meredith Emerson. These aren't the only people who have been killed on or near the AT, but these are the people whose stories hit home for me. It's very rare, but it happens enough-- when someone is murdered on the A.T., they are more likely to be female than male. Again, it's very rare, but it's out there, and I have this extra weight to carry, some extra degree of caution I have to exercise as a female solo hiker.
It's not going to keep me from hiking, and I don't think it should do so for any woman. But it's a hard thing to wrap my brain around, and if someone doesn't really know what to do or say about it, or what kind of advice to give about it, I'll cut them some slack.
Just two days go, on Different Sock's thread, known to me as a 52 yr old male, he opened with:
Is anyone else tired of hearing about others on these long trails attempting to be the best or worst at completing the length?
Whatever happened to just doing the trail and not caring about how far you have top walk each day, how much weight is in your pack, what your equip and clothing consists of, how fast or slow you go, what your age is or if you have a handicap?
Just the simple fact that you are attempting to do it or you are doing it is amazing enough!
I responded to HIS comments, which I perceived as somewhat useless energy sapping bitching leading to needless increased personal negativity, frustration, and annoyance for him although perhaps he just needed to vent some:
Why let it bother you? It's a waste of energy giving greater traction to that which offends or annoys you. So what? Others do things differently. There doesn't have to be something wrong in any of those differences. Some focus on superlative labels/categories. So what? There doesn't have to be a wrong or right just different while contently being tolerant of those differences.
I said similar on this thread, happening to be in the FEMALE FORUM, with the same intention after having some of the same perceptions on this thread in the FEMALE FORUM as I did on a MALE's thread, Different Socks. There is no MALE FORUM or MALE THREADS...which if I so chose to bitch could find offensive in itself as a male! Some may not like what I said here on this thread, possibly even taking offense at it, but it had nothing to do with prejudices against gender. I stand by my posts here as not being prejudiced on gender but based on being prejudiced on things like energy sapping debates that lead to greater division and possibly frustration, biases, and annoyance that solve little to nothing in the process.
That is why I also chose to end my FEMALE EMPOWERING post here by saying
So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?
Old thread but I'll comment. Do you always get annoyed with everyone's attitudes and opinions? Do you always give SO MUCH WEIGHT to everyone's opinion? SO WHAT! Move on. There will always be others with opposing viewpoints. SO WHAT! Why give a shart what everyone else thinks? Don't let everyone else's BS opinions affect you so negatively. Don't let yourself get mired down in someone else's mud! Go out and hike as a female or promote female hiking. Make a difference if you feel you must!
My last phrase was meant to inspire FEMALES to move beyond the gender prejudices AND move beyond GETTING STUCK in the just talking about it.
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 01:29
Dogwood, I never once said anything mean to you. My answer to you was an explanation to you if you would read please reread my first sentence of my response. An explanation that for me I felt like every time I tried to enter into a subject regarding personal female issues some man was on there not only listening which is creepy enough, but actually commenting and some even sharing details about their wives which I would be livid if my spouse did that. But that is me.
The scary thing about the Internet is that we often forget social cues, would we really discuss bras and p styles for female urination with men we never before face to face? I came on WB to discuss things, many of them female issues, with women. I simply assumed that it being a female forum the men on here would get their input is not warranted, assumed even more so when the subject lines says pee rag or bras in it, the men would most definitely stay out.
Your post about forgetting the rest of the crap etc....a little hard when the crap keeps inviting itself into VERY personal feminine forums. That was the point I have been trying to make, that some men, not all, but some, do not seem to realize that while a few women on here might be a little more relaxed discussing these things with men they do not know or may have never even met, there are even more ladies on here who do mind. I tried to casually mention it was a female topic on a female forum and even saw the moderator said the thing but to no avail. So when you said to just tune it all out so to speak, I thought, how? I been as polite as I could, the moderator mentioned it, I finally put out a long post more than once for those who cannot seem to grasp the simple concept of boundaries, but no matter their invasion of our privacy kept coming.
I agree with you, most men might not have taken your comment as differently as I did, but then again, when you posted it on that forum it was about something general of trail and length, when you posted it on our forum it felt as if you were implying that we need to just overlook the men commenting and forget about it. Why? I mean this is a female forum, why do we have to forget about it, why do we have to keep reminding the men to have some darn manners and learn that no not every women needs their input.
For the love of God, why is it so hard to just put the female thread on ignore for some of the men? Why do they feel compelled to insert their opinions on bras and our urine issues?
You say we need to just let it go and ignore them, I say they need to grow some manners and learn what the hell boundaries are. And while it was sweet for you to want to empower us with your words, please kindly remember as you do not need us empowering you, we do not require a man to empower us. We are capable of empowering ourselves. I wish you the best and say in conclusion here, perception often is everything.
Just two days go, on Different Sock's thread, known to me as a 52 yr old male, he opened with:
I responded to HIS comments, which I perceived as somewhat useless energy sapping bitching leading to needless increased personal negativity, frustration, and annoyance for him although perhaps he just needed to vent some:
I said similar on this thread, happening to be in the FEMALE FORUM, with the same intention after having some of the same perceptions on this thread in the FEMALE FORUM as I did on a MALE's thread, Different Socks. There is no MALE FORUM or MALE THREADS...which if I so chose to bitch could find offensive in itself as a male! Some may not like what I said here on this thread, possibly even taking offense at it, but it had nothing to do with prejudices against gender. I stand by my posts here as not being prejudiced on gender but based on being prejudiced on things like energy sapping debates that lead to greater division and possibly frustration, biases, and annoyance that solve little to nothing in the process.
That is why I also chose to end my FEMALE EMPOWERING post here by saying
My last phrase was meant to inspire FEMALES to move beyond the gender prejudices AND move beyond GETTING STUCK in the just talking about it.
Last post here. Seems no male comments are being appreciated or carefully considred.
Thread has gone off on many different tangents. My one post here was in response to Amanita's question, which seemed to several here, both male and female, to be her main intent on solving: "So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?" That is bee all of my intent...answering that question. Is that not what this thread is about NOT sensitive female only issues with little to no potential significant male insight like bras, pee rags, feminine hygiene, etc? With all due respect, and hopefully not disregarding anyone's boundaries, can males not provide ANY insight into answering that question when offered respectfully and taken as being offensive just because it comes from a male?
Do you not suppose others whom are not female face massive injustices, unfairness, and prejudices? If so, could those who overcome them possibly offer some insightful approaches on overcoming prejudicial unjust unfair attitudes and inequality related to gender?
I sincerely hope respectfully shared comments absent of sexism that could contain insight in answering the OP's question regardless of the gender of those offering the potential insight be appreciated and considered. That is what I hoped would happen on any forum.... even on the Female Forum.
So how do we get women out hiking. Bring them hiking. Encourage both sexes to get outside more. I started hiking by the time I was 2 with my folks. I was skiing by 3. My girl scout troop was always camping and hiking. Are there times I have been scared to death? Yes, but most of those were not because of being female. Canoes flipping mid rapid, almost falling during a steep rock scramble can happen to any of us.
I read the female forums to get insight into female issues since my primary hiking partner is female. I only comment on a subject if I feel I have valuable insight or something to contribute. I don't want to be accused of 'mansplaining" (I had to look that up, hilarious :D )
I was reading somewhere, that men are nature's experiments. We are not necessary to the continuance of the species, so we do the stupid things and get ourselves killed. Experiment failed. Women are tougher, make more reasonable decisions and tend not to be risk takers, because the survival of the species does depend on women surviving. They are tougher, mentally and physically. Notice I didn't say stronger. In general, men are physically stronger, but not necessarily tougher.
With that thought, maybe more women don't take up hiking because they perceive it to be risky?
Traffic Jam
09-20-2015, 13:17
I'm with Illabelle, I don't mind men commenting on female issues. I've learned several things from men in this forum.
The only thing that upsets me is when a man scolds a woman for a question or comment in the women's forum. I've seen quite a few women ask a question only to be shut down by a man who made her feel stupid.
smoky spoon, I understand how you feel about discussing personal issues. I try to keep in mind that these posts are public and many men are reading them. If I'm not comfortable with that, then I don't post. I've private messaged several women when I had questions or comments that I didn't want to post in public. There are several women here that I'm sure wouldn't mind a pm, myself included. :)
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 16:18
Thank you for the invite on the pm, I may try it. I know some women have pm me on here warning me to tread carefully regarding the men because "a few gals are male groupies and will throw you under the bus if you say anything, we usually are forced to emails and pm if we want privacy". I thought that was kind of sad but am understanding their warning a little better now. Please note I am not calling you a male groupie as I myself have many male friends, I do not discuss intimate issues with them but again to each their own, I do however discuss most everything else.
We typically have great discussions at that. I think it amazing that I made a simple explanation to Dogwood as to why do women have to turn the other cheek on a female forum when in my opinion the man can simply practice appropriate boundaries. Do not get me wrong, we all need to compromise in this world on many issues but damn, on a female forum? Really? With males?
You said it upset you when men sometimes scold women, well that is exactly what I said. Mansplaining and/or crude comments or using a tone that talks a girl down. It is not needed. Nor should I have to resort to using a pm to discuss female sensitive issues just so some guy does not get his feelings hurt. Good God, really, is the male ego that fragile?
I think not, I have noticed something, quite a lot of guys are on here on WB and yet only a handful seem to be the culprits. What does that tell me? Their are some guys who are gentlemen. What does the fact that women are being made to feel bad for actually having the audacity to say something? Sad, very sad. How dare we be uncomfortable talking amongst men on our female forum regarding female sensitive issues? Silly me, I thought being a female forum and a female issue it actually meant females only would be privy to it. How dare we become upset about a handful of men speaking down to a couple of women on a female thread and accuse them of handing out wrong info. It happened quite a few times. I mean has anyone read some of the post to a few of these girls? Please read redbeards responses to missmagnolia. Seriously if you all want to take that kind of crap from someone just because he is a man then by all means bow down to him, this woman only bows down to God.
I am an intelligent, independent thinking and female empowering woman. I do not need to empower myself by male bashing I have repeatedly complimented some of the men on here yet not once has anyone mentioned that.
I understand some of you are all buddies with the men, I also understand the so called men dishing out their commentso (and no I am not referring to the guys who comments were respectful in tone or asking legitimate questions because their female counterpart could not) because they have never had a woman remind them what manners are and how some of us girls on here are ladies and wish to be treated as such. If labeling me a man hating bitch by either some of the men or women on here makes them feel better then by all means go for it. I do not back down. I will not be bullied into submission and I do not care if you like me or not. I sincerely do not wish to have those kind of people in my inner circle. If you are in my inner circle it is because you comprehend boundaries and respect.
I do care if you disrespect me or do not treat me like a lady. And listening in and commenting on a female forum, and this is after a moderator warned you, after not just me but other women mentioned mansplaining is not needed yet you still did it. Then you took offense to being called out on it, and then you stomped your feet and pouted when it was made clear you have no concept of boundaries. Kind of reminds me when you are driving and some idiot is texting on the cell and starts to swerve into your lane, so you tap your horn to let them know that they are about to have a serious wreck and their reaction is to flip you off. First they make the offense, then you alert them to it and they turn all nasty or pouty on you. Seriously, when did it become a crime to be a lady and expect to be treated as one?
Because that is what this all boils down to. I simply asked for guys to butt out of the sensitive issues on female threads and look what a can of worms I opened. Wow. Just wow.
Please understand Traffic Jam I am not intending the majority of this message to you. I respect your right to want to include a man's opinion on your discussion which is why I am sure you would put it in the general discussion, as I myself did concerning my asthma. Because that was not female sensitive, but pretty general. I am venting here with your quote because honestly you were the last to comment when I logged on today, and honestly I am so surprised that a few women asking for privacy on some really sensitive issues has warranted this much negative feedback. I am in awe wanting privacy is such a big deal to a few of the guys on here. So glad the majority of the men on here can be respectful, thank you to those gentlemen out there for that. As for those who can't, well grandma always said you have to kiss a lot of toads to find a prince.
I'm with Illabelle, I don't mind men commenting on female issues. I've learned several things from men in this forum.
The only thing that upsets me is when a man scolds a woman for a question or comment in the women's forum. I've seen quite a few women ask a question only to be shut down by a man who made her feel stupid.
smoky spoon, I understand how you feel about discussing personal issues. I try to keep in mind that these posts are public and many men are reading them. If I'm not comfortable with that, then I don't post. I've private messaged several women when I had questions or comments that I didn't want to post in public. There are several women here that I'm sure wouldn't mind a pm, myself included. :)
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 17:05
Dogwood, to answer your questions I decided to respond. When you made your other comment, the one I responded to, it felt to me that while your advice was good, i myself have said similar things many times, your timing was off. Your comment inserted in that particular conversation was not regarding female sensitive issues, you are correct about that, but have you read the whole post? One guy says a girl already made bad decisions and would probably make more while another resorted to saying not all rapes of women were actually rapes but women changing their mind the next day. Neither of those things had anything to do with this original thread and were grossly offensive. More importantly, they were done on a thread that was for females so when a man comes on here and does that it kind of raises the hackles. Then another guy comes in and tells us to overlook it. It is adding insult to injury and I understand you never meant it that way, but trust me more than a few gals took it like that. We are glad you made it clear how you intended it but I am sure you can see how patronizing it sounded for us to be insulted on our thread by one man and then be told by another to ignore it.
As for some of your questions, yes many guys can offer insight on some issues if that is what they really are doing. You understand some guys are not such good guys rignt? I mean look at this thread, we are talking getting more women on the trail and safety on the trail for women. Well one way to pick your victim's is to go on a site like this where the majority of women will be going on most likely one each of the three better known trails, AT, PCT and CDT. A guy can learn all he wants on here. And if he claims to have a daughter or wife and inserts himself in our discussions, especially of a sensitive nature, well it gives all a sense of familiarity with this guy and to him a sense of intimacy that probably does not exist with the women. If he has a type, well on the bra forum he knows lots of sizes, pics can show him hair type, and on the thread for CCW on the trail he has an idea of who is packing. On the registry he knows who is going, when and what trail. So I guess for me it boils down to not so much that your comments offer no good advice, it is more of respect and safety.
Like what is the intent behind your comment? Is it really what you say it is? Not you per se, I am using you as my examples okay? Please, please, please trust me when I say more than once I have had someone try to talk to me and my friends online only to have it turn out to be a creeper. One time when I was dumb enough to get into the Facebook haze I made friends with someone, just friended them, spouse did too. We had no idea when they found a way into our life as a new friend that they were the same person online. We also had no idea they took lots of credit cards out in our name. They got our mail before we got home, it was easy for them, we were renting and they rented out the place right next to us. While we were out working the mail came home early early, guess who thinned it out looking for credit card offers? Guess who went in debt for slightly more than $25000.00 from identity theft from that person? Guess who no longer goes on Facebook or other social media?
It took a lot for me to go online to a site like this Dogwood. My spouse is very nervous when they hear about men listening to female issues. We been down this road, we saw where it can lead. I am hiking the AT solo because my spouse is not retired yet and it is my dream. We have a policy of always making sure each others dreams happen. Respect is foremost in our marrange and it feels disrespectful discussing some intimate issues with other men, online. So no not all comments are offensive just because a man made them, but are peculiar when a man makes them on a female forum and more peculiar when made on that forum regarding female sensitive issues.
Yes I do believe others face injustices, unfairness and insecurities. One example is any man accused of rape, falsely. Please see that last word there, falsely. Once the accusation is made and it goes public, most likely when he is proven innocent at least half (approximately ) will still believe he was guilty. And he has to bear that burden the rest of his life. That to me would be horrible, but sadly I have seen it more than once.
I am not sure some people can understand or help others understand or overcome differences in inequality related to gender unless they are truly willing to listen.
I too hope any comment offered in honesty and respect will be listened to on any forum as well as the female ones but also hope some people can learn boundaries and respect them. Sometimes we do not always need to give our input, sometimes we just need to understand maybe our presence is not needed on that particular topic, because sometimes there really is differences between men and women, and we just need respect that.
Last post here. Seems no male comments are being appreciated or carefully considred.
Thread has gone off on many different tangents. My one post here was in response to Amanita's question, which seemed to several here, both male and female, to be her main intent on solving: "So how do we get young women out on the trail in the face of attitudes like this?" That is bee all of my intent...answering that question. Is that not what this thread is about NOT sensitive female only issues with little to no potential significant male insight like bras, pee rags, feminine hygiene, etc? With all due respect, and hopefully not disregarding anyone's boundaries, can males not provide ANY insight into answering that question when offered respectfully and taken as being offensive just because it comes from a male?
Do you not suppose others whom are not female face massive injustices, unfairness, and prejudices? If so, could those who overcome them possibly offer some insightful approaches on overcoming prejudicial unjust unfair attitudes and inequality related to gender?
I sincerely hope respectfully shared comments absent of sexism that could contain insight in answering the OP's question regardless of the gender of those offering the potential insight be appreciated and considered. That is what I hoped would happen on any forum.... even on the Female Forum.
Traffic Jam
09-20-2015, 17:20
Just to clarify, I suggested private messaging if you were uncomfortable about posting personal information related to menstruation, birth control, etc., not because I thought you, or anyone else, would be "thrown under the bus."
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 17:29
To begin with thank you for not taking everything I said as a slam to all men. I also appreciate that you took the time to explain why you come on here to the female forum. I can respect that you care about your female counterpart and hope to understand her issues better. It is sweet actually.
I agree men are physically stronger, I do think women think things through a little more but know a few guys who have that down pretty well so I am also sure that is not just a female thing.
I think women themselves do not personally see hiking as risky per se, but more that their loved ones worry when they hear a women is on the trail alone.
I am one of the lucky ones, my dad was a real dinosaur, he is the epitome of John Wayne in Big Jake, and like Big Jake he preferred strong and independent women. He raised four girls and two boys, trust me when I say we all were raised fiercly. When I told him I was hiking the AT solo he said no one could do it better, he then said he had no doubt I would be fine. He never has worried when I went into the back country, nor when I was overseas, nor when I was in the mountains miles from anywhere and monsoon season hit. Neither did my spouse. Both knew I can handle myself should the need arise.
Does that mean I will always be safe? No, but it does mean if they were in a similar situation they both knew we all would most likely make the same choices and get the same outcome.
Sometimes bad things happen no matter what you do. When it does, you get up and brush yourself off and do your best to keep moving forward. Both know what I have survived, both know what my skills are and both know that out of all my father's children, especially when it comes to the outdoors l am the one they all want to be with. And my brothers are both very outdoorsy, as is two of my sisters. As is my spouse, and my dad has lived his fair share in the outdoors, but none have the skills and knowledge I do and all know that and respect it. Just as I know they have knowledge and skills they possess different front me and I respect that.
Is hiking riskier for women though? I guess it comes down to the woman, and the man if you think about it, if they are prepared their risk can be a lot less, if they go out unprepared then their risk increase, either way more people hiking is a good thing, male or female.
I read the female forums to get insight into female issues since my primary hiking partner is female. I only comment on a subject if I feel I have valuable insight or something to contribute. I don't want to be accused of 'mansplaining" (I had to look that up, hilarious :D )
I was reading somewhere, that men are nature's experiments. We are not necessary to the continuance of the species, so we do the stupid things and get ourselves killed. Experiment failed. Women are tougher, make more reasonable decisions and tend not to be risk takers, because the survival of the species does depend on women surviving. They are tougher, mentally and physically. Notice I didn't say stronger. In general, men are physically stronger, but not necessarily tougher.
With that thought, maybe more women don't take up hiking because they perceive it to be risky?
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 17:33
That is why I said that most of my message was not meant for you, but mostly me venting. I really did appreciate the offer of the pm Traffic Jam. And I did not say they were thrown under the bus, i said that was reiterated to me, some felt others (I have no idea who they meant, they did not specify) made them feel like that. I just felt it was sad is all.
Just to clarify, I suggested private messaging if you were uncomfortable about posting personal information related to menstruation, birth control, etc., not because I thought you, or anyone else, would be "thrown under the bus."
MuddyWaters
09-20-2015, 18:34
There is no shortage of women on the trail.
maybe you didnt notice the woman that set the unsupported PCT record working on breaking the unsupported AT as well right now.
There are more than a few that want to have a pity-party on womens threads though.
Are women more at risk on trail? Sure.
Just like in everyday life. Its no different.
Two choices
Get over it or stay home.
Historical events suggest that women with partners arent necessarilly that much safer either.
This was a 2.5 yr old dead thread, revived with a comment by a man about his daughter, and someone is going to take issue with mens comments?
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 19:23
Yes, like I said they want you to sit back and take it. Let it be a lesson girls, we ask for privacy and respect and by golly we are having a pity party.
And it's our fault some dude decided to revive a dead thread and comment about his daughter too...
Um mm okay.
Guess his comments are not considered a scolding or rude comment right?
It's common for some to vigorously defend why they should and need to be offended. They look for offense AND THEY FIND IT AT EVERY CORNER THEY TURN. Focus on unfairness, injustice, inequality, and prejudice and being offended and you'll find it infinite abundance. Some also resort to using and then will defend reverse sexism to make a point about themselves experiencing sexism. Some will allow themselves to play the role of victim. I will not defend sexism no matter how it flows or who it comes from. IMHO, yes it has occurred on this thread. However, I will share again, the higher goal IMHO would be moving on....overcoming it....NOT seeing yourself as a victim.
Consider not going off on tangential issues, considering my comments in their full context, and, of most importance, not ignoring my ultimate aims:
"Don't let yourself get mired down in someone else's mud! Go out and hike as a female or promote female hiking."
"...move beyond the gender prejudices AND move beyond GETTING STUCK in the just talking about it."
IF you are truly interested in these aims, as a female...moving beyond debate and taking offense....being an overcomer....lots of classy empowered females who have done just that and have discussed being a female hiker FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF NOT ONLY IDENTIFYING GENDER PREJUDCIES BUT OF OVERCOMING MALE CENTRIC CULTURAL NORMS: Elizabeth Thomas "Snorkel, Jennifer Pharr Davis, Heather Anderson "Anish", Erin Saver "Wired" , Ashley Hill, Felicia Hermasillo Princess of darkness(P.O.D), Christine "German Tourist".......have a lot of knowledge and personal experience with the issue. MANY have written about being an overcoming empowered female on the trail. Biggest thing I notice about all these empowered woman they don't tend to give much focus or traction to the BS prejudicies coming from whomever might attempt to hold them back!
MuddyWaters
09-20-2015, 20:22
Yes, like I said they want you to sit back and take it. Let it be a lesson girls, we ask for privacy and respect and by golly we are having a pity party.
And it's our fault some dude decided to revive a dead thread and comment about his daughter too...
Um mm okay.
Guess his comments are not considered a scolding or rude comment right?
a pity party is when someone doesnt want answers to questions, they only want to commisserate with others with the same fears. Women dont have a monopoly on it, it applies to all the things people are SCARED of. All the fear threads are exactly alike, people are scared of being in the woods, especially alone. Should I bring a weapon, Is it safe to hike solo, Will I be attacked by a bear, etc. They are afraid something will happen to them, or their spouse, or kid. There are plenty of men that are scared of all of the above as well. A well known blogger got scared by himself at a shelter in GA one night, and hiked out, and blogged about it. Women have a very very slight higher risk.
The only answer is yes. Something bad can happen to you. Its a remote possibility. Accept it, mitigate risk to your satisfaction, or stay home. Period. You have no other choices.
Or , commisserate with others with same fear for 25 pages.
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 20:53
I agree with you on most of what you just said muddy. I have said repeatedly I feel safer in the woods than in the rest of the world and believe me I have seen lots of this big world of ours.
I agree maybe women are only slightly safer, maybe. Honestly what I believe is if something is going to happen to you then there is not a darn thing you can do to stop it. You can reasonably try to prepare for most things based on what your plans to do are, as in a thru hike well, doing all the right things to prepare for that would be what most people would do. However, you can be nearly done and slip on a muddy hill and break your leg in The Whites. Voila, hike over for now.
Things happen, so whether you are man or women, well, if you prepare you may reduce the chance of bad things happening but no amount of prep can prevent what mother nature may throw at you or even the human factor. Sometimes people can just mess you up. It happens.
For me, i said it before, i am not into fear mongering, i believe the trail is safe, i have a CCW but will not carry on the AT. Will I carry on other trails? Depends on the trail. Depends on a lot of things.
I am not against guns, i own quite a few and love them. I am an avid fisher woman and huntress. I served my country and served it well and love my gun rights. But I am also pretty level headed and know for myself I do not need a gun on the AT. Having a gun out there means one thing for sure, if I pull it out i may be forced to use it. I really do not want to do that. I will, but honestly I am out on the AT to get away from people. I freely admit a thru hike on such a populated area is new for me because this gal usually does the back country and mountains where only the animals are.
But that is me muddy, i realize I am not everybody's cup of tea, but that is okay not everyone is my cup of tea either.
I also realize many people have strong feelings of carrying or not carrying a gun on trails. My only opinion on that is these two things: if you take and use it you will be the one paying the price for it, not someone who told you some thing online; and if you pull it out and point it at someone one of three things will have to happen at that point, you shoot someone, they take the gun from you or you scare them off. Either/or, if you are asking online what to do about a gun on a trail then chances are you probably shouldn't be taking it with you. Most people very familiar with guns do not need to ask such questions. Please note, this is my opinion only. I really do not expect anyone to agree with it, most usually don't, i am okay with that too.
As for women having a monopoly on things happening to them, i believe that distinction may go to children. Not sure, just a guess on my part. But in my experience, it is usually children who are victims the most.
I wish you the best. Happy trails.
a pity party is when someone doesnt want answers to questions, they only want to commisserate with others with the same fears. Women dont have a monopoly on it, it applies to all the things people are SCARED of. All the fear threads are exactly alike, people are scared of being in the woods, especially alone. Should I bring a weapon, Is it safe to hike solo, Will I be attacked by a bear, etc. They are afraid something will happen to them, or their spouse, or kid. There are plenty of men that are scared of all of the above as well. Women have a very very slight higher risk.
The only answer is yes. Something bad can happen to you. Its a remote possibility. Accept it, mitigate risk to your satisfaction, or stay home. Period. You have no other choices.
Or , commisserate with others with same fear for 25 pages.
Smoky Spoon
09-20-2015, 21:26
Again Dogwood, we are on the same page. Look, i have hiked my whole life, i have done many things, so debates online are not a huge bother to me. Please do not get so worked up that they bother you. Like I told all of those who keep writing me and boy you all got lots of buddies dishing out advice and orders to me in pm. But as I told them, debates are fun, there is nothing wrong with lively discussions. Good Lord we are online, lively debates is part of the fun. Scaring others into silence is not. That friend is bullying. Not saying you did that. But I am saying a few others on here have.
Why I have never been so popular in the pm section until I said something on here hoping some guys can be a bit more respectful concerning certain female issues. Granted I said that a bit sterner than how I said it just now but that was because it only took me posting it on three threads three different times and it still had not registered.
Now you went on a rant here about women being victims. Let me be real clear here Dogwood, I am no one's victim. Especially on here. The person who stole our identity got theirs, that what the law is for. The only victims I see on here are the women and now some men even, scared to answer publicly, at least according to those who contacted me saying how intimidated they were to ever post again. But that is their choice as it is mine to point out to others how uncomfortable it is to discuss certain issues with men.
You keep telling me what I can do here, and a lot of others keep pm me telling me what I can do to, how about I tell you what you all can do?
Let it drop. Do not let my opinions which are allowed on here as much as any one elses keep you from posting. Please no one else send anyone else to me or pm me or ordering me or anything else to please let it drop. Intimidation tactics do not work on me as you all just found out. Logically speaking with me can works wonders though. Us working out our issues respectfully will get you bonus points. Seriously, stop the crap. And no Dogwood I do not think you sent anyone. Something tells me you are probably above that. So thank you for that.
As far as gender issues go, and sexism, well honestly the best policy I found that works is actions speak louder hand words. When they tell me I cannot do it, i do it if I want to, and if I don't really want to I let them think they may be right, because I know another person will prove them wrong. Some things are not worth wasting my time on. Impressing men is one of them. I have already impressed the men in my life that i wanted to impress. I am retired. I fight the good fights, like helping others who feel intimidated on here or educating what boundaries are. Because those things are important to me.
Really Dogwood, you can rant all you want, you can think I am a victim all yoy want, because in the end you are not important to me, i do not know you, we do not break bread, we do not hang out. If you think I am a victim then you have misread every post I ever wrote and all I can say is either go read them all again or let it go. Perception, it really is everything. Eventually you will understand what I mean by that, i sure wish it was tonight. I also wish you the best. Happy trails.
It's common for some to vigorously defend why they should and need to be offended. They look for offense AND THEY FIND IT AT EVERY CORNER THEY TURN. Focus on unfairness, injustice, inequality, and prejudice and being offended and you'll find it infinite abundance. Some also resort to using and then will defend reverse sexism to make a point about themselves experiencing sexism. Some will allow themselves to play the role of victim. I will not defend sexism no matter how it flows or who it comes from. IMHO, yes it has occurred on this thread. However, I will share again, the higher goal IMHO would be moving on....overcoming it....NOT seeing yourself as a victim.
Consider not going off on tangential issues, considering my comments in their full context, and, of most importance, not ignoring my ultimate aims:
"Don't let yourself get mired down in someone else's mud! Go out and hike as a female or promote female hiking."
"...move beyond the gender prejudices AND move beyond GETTING STUCK in the just talking about it."
IF you are truly interested in these aims, as a female...moving beyond debate and taking offense....being an overcomer....lots of classy empowered females who have done just that and have discussed being a female hiker FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF NOT ONLY IDENTIFYING GENDER PREJUDCIES BUT OF OVERCOMING MALE CENTRIC CULTURAL NORMS: Elizabeth Thomas "Snorkel, Jennifer Pharr Davis, Heather Anderson "Anish", Erin Saver "Wired" , Ashley Hill, Felicia Hermasillo Princess of darkness(P.O.D), Christine "German Tourist".......have a lot of knowledge and personal experience with the issue. MANY have written about being an overcoming empowered female on the trail. Biggest thing I notice about all these empowered woman they don't tend to give much focus or traction to the BS prejudicies coming from whomever might attempt to hold them back!
When are we hiking together Smoky Spoon? Want to hike some of the Grand Enchantment Tr , AZT, or CDT. I'll even carry most of the gear. ;)
Smoky Spoon
09-21-2015, 12:02
Where buddy I am free this winter, got lots of info on the Grand Enchantment Trail. The hayduke is supposed to be pretty nice. I would consider it an honor to hike with you. Doing the AT come early spring, you can always tag along. :)
When are we hiking together Smoky Spoon? Want to hike some of the Grand Enchantment Tr , AZT, or CDT. I'll even carry most of the gear. ;)
girl guide
03-20-2016, 07:09
Hello everyone!
Thirtysomething newbie from Germany here. :) I've been watching Thru Hiker vlogs on YouTube for a while now (starting 2014 or so) while dreaming about one day hiking the AT myself.
I usually make a point of reading all the comments to a video, too (most of the best advice usually hides in the comment section) so I've noticed the very unsettling tendency of comments being different on videos of female hikers. I have yet to find a male hiker's video with comments such as "I don't think you'll make it, you don't look as if you have what it takes", "You shouldn't do X, do Y instead" (with the implication that the hiker didn't do their research), "I wouldn't mind getting to know you a little better on the trail wink wink", "get rid of those ugly glasses / that ugly item of clothing", "did you sleep with one of the people in your group of hikers?", "is that other hiker your partner?" or even comments about how ugly the hiker is. It's pretty unsettling to me seeing the comments and the abuse some of these girls get online. (It's also always a pleasure to see these ladies make their way to Katahdin and prove those pigs wrong. :banana)
I was wondering if there is a tendency to get that abuse in person, too? Online I don't often see male hikers replying to these kinds of comments - maybe because they don't care but hopefully because they don't want to come across as mansplaining and don't want to feed the trolls. I guess I was just wondering if male hikers tend to be allies on the trail if situations like that come up?
Sandy of PA
03-20-2016, 09:07
Cyberhiking is nothing like actually getting out there! I have been doing 400plus miles on the AT each year since 2011, and found nothing but generally nice guys out there. Some of the younger ones may use "potty mouth" speech but that seems to be common any more. When hiking with my Grandsons I think a few were wishing their Grandma had taken them hiking. I did have a few trying to give me a new trailname "Hardcore Grandma" but all in good fun.
Puddlefish
03-20-2016, 09:33
Hello everyone!
Thirtysomething newbie from Germany here. :) I've been watching Thru Hiker vlogs on YouTube for a while now (starting 2014 or so) while dreaming about one day hiking the AT myself.
I usually make a point of reading all the comments to a video, too (most of the best advice usually hides in the comment section) so I've noticed the very unsettling tendency of comments being different on videos of female hikers. I have yet to find a male hiker's video with comments such as "I don't think you'll make it, you don't look as if you have what it takes", "You shouldn't do X, do Y instead" (with the implication that the hiker didn't do their research), "I wouldn't mind getting to know you a little better on the trail wink wink", "get rid of those ugly glasses / that ugly item of clothing", "did you sleep with one of the people in your group of hikers?", "is that other hiker your partner?" or even comments about how ugly the hiker is. It's pretty unsettling to me seeing the comments and the abuse some of these girls get online. (It's also always a pleasure to see these ladies make their way to Katahdin and prove those pigs wrong. :banana)
I was wondering if there is a tendency to get that abuse in person, too? Online I don't often see male hikers replying to these kinds of comments - maybe because they don't care but hopefully because they don't want to come across as mansplaining and don't want to feed the trolls. I guess I was just wondering if male hikers tend to be allies on the trail if situations like that come up?
I'm a father who raised two daughters into capable and happy adults, so I've always been attentive to these kind of issues. Youtube in general is a cesspit of sexism. Every single video that involves a woman has some sort of thoughtless, or malicious comment that discusses her appearance or sexuality. I noticed it first in music videos, as I'm a fan of female vocalists. Rather than discussing an amazing voice and sound, it's always the same derp about how pretty she is.
I suspect the reason for this is that we have a segment of a generation of young men, who have learned to socialize online and rarely talk to other people in real life. They haven't faced any kind of real life repercussions for their behavior. There are of course the social justice warrior young men as well, and the young men who pretend to be SJWs in the hope that it will get them laid. Young men are largely hormone driven idiots, it's worse on the internet when they're unsupervised.
I would expect that the general population of hikers is more socialized than the internet versions are. They're out in the world interacting with humans, rather than merely commenting. It's hard to consider anyone at at all your inferior when you share hardships with them and see them succeed. The trail is a great equalizer.
Both men and women have to put up with stereotyping, unfortunately. On the trail- as in life- be capable, be accountable, be smart. Men and women can be productive and positive or a-holes-equally. As a female, I sometimes get tired of the hand wringing over how women are treated in our society.We worked really hard to get where we are-time to own it.
OkeefenokeeJoe
04-29-2016, 23:06
Ever had a baby? Pain tolerance?
No, never had a baby, but have you ever been kicked in the balls?
I've NEVER heard a person who has been kicked in the balls say he would like to have another some day ..... can't say that about women and childbirth.
Must not be that bad.
BOOM ... case closed.
OkeefenokeeJoe