View Full Version : Going "Green" With Stoves: Alcohol and Biodiesel
hikin_jim
11-14-2011, 14:14
Stoves are a great thing, but what can we do in the area of sustainability?
Wood is an obvious choice, but what about places where wood isn't practical, allowed, or ethical? Check out my blog post: Going "Green" With Stoves: Alcohol and Biodiesel (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/11/biodiesel.html)
HJ
Thanks, Jim. I've always used SLX. I'll have to try some of the "greener" stuff. :)
hikin_jim
11-14-2011, 21:15
Thanks, Jim. I've always used SLX. I'll have to try some of the "greener" stuff. :)
Nothing wrong with SLX in terms of effectiveness. You do want to keep it off your hands since it's mostly methanol which you do not want getting into your system.
The only complaint I've heard about the "greener" stuff is that since it burns a little hotter (ethanol has more heat content than methanol), it can start vaporizing so rapidly that it doesn't combust well (not enough air mixed in). Adding a teaspoon or so of water to the fuel tames it down a bit if you get into that situation.
HJ
Captain Blue
11-14-2011, 21:23
I found this on the Northern Arizona University web site: http://ses.nau.edu/AZSynFuels/faq.html
Q. Why is methanol better for the economy and the environment than corn-based ethanol?
A. Economically and environmentally, the major benefit of methanol is that it does not compete with the agricultural market for raw materials, such as corn, wheat, or sugarcane. We are beginning to see very extreme and negative global effects coming from the corn-based ethanol boom such as massive deforestation, agricultural malpractice, crop shifting, etc. Methanol synthesis has no dependence on agricultural products whatsoever, so will not affect land management, farming practices, food prices or food supply.
hikin_jim
11-14-2011, 21:42
I found this on the Northern Arizona University web site: http://ses.nau.edu/AZSynFuels/faq.html
Q. Why is methanol better for the economy and the environment than corn-based ethanol?
A. Economically and environmentally, the major benefit of methanol is that it does not compete with the agricultural market for raw materials, such as corn, wheat, or sugarcane. We are beginning to see very extreme and negative global effects coming from the corn-based ethanol boom such as massive deforestation, agricultural malpractice, crop shifting, etc. Methanol synthesis has no dependence on agricultural products whatsoever, so will not affect land management, farming practices, food prices or food supply.
Interesting. I guess there's no such thing as a free lunch. The thing the NAU information doesn't mention is that methanol is chiefly derived from methane, a fossil fuel much like oil. Yes, methanol production won't impact agriculture, but neither is it sustainable.
Probably the ultimate solution to environmental devastation is something that no one wants to talk about: a significant reduction in the human population. Now there's a political hot potato for you.
HJ
hikin_jim
11-14-2011, 21:45
Well, actually I take that back. The information quoted doesn't mention the methanol - methane connection, but if you click through on the link, it does mention the issue, and it sounds like they actually have some good ideas. Worth a read.
HJ
Wise Old Owl
11-14-2011, 22:22
nice post and good info - but hey let's say I AM A SKEPTIC- OWL.
First I generally stick to blue heat.
Have you measured the difference between one and the other? stick a thermometer with a holder and a stopwatch in the flame - the time difference will tell which is better.
Iso is the worst because its got 20-30 percent water.
Wood of course is green but there is a process- so I am not on board
Oil and Wood are natural - and oil creates more soot. Oil soot blocks the sun....so what.
You need more to saturate the nay sayers.
I am not going to worry about which can I buy - when there are cars and trucks pouring out
250 degrees of pollution - heat and soot - to the tune of billions of crap and un-breathable atmosphere in my life time.....
My solution - Plant more trees instead. Change ignorant public opinion. Stop clear cutting and pouring plastic into the ocean.
Yea - That's IMO and I approve this message.
hikin_jim
11-14-2011, 22:28
nice post and good info - but hey let's say I AM A SKEPTIC- OWL.
lol
First I generally stick to blue heat.
What is blue heat? Do you mean HEET in the yellow bottle?
HJ
Wise Old Owl
11-14-2011, 22:45
Yey hikin jim - blue and yellow - might have misspoke and choose the wrong color.
it takes about 1.5 gallons of petroleum to make 1 gallon of Ethanol and about 2 gallons of petroleum to make 1 gallon of gasoline. and it takes a gallon and a half of ethanol to equal the Btu's in a gallon of gasoline which makes them about equalish in sustainability. and methanol is even worse taking just over two gallons to equal the potential energy in a gallon of gasoline. the second law of thermodynamics makes any product that uses energy in its manufacturing non sustainable. in my opinion wood would be the only "sustainable" fuel in my opinion. Just a few thoughts.
-kreate
hikin_jim
11-14-2011, 23:49
it takes about 1.5 gallons of petroleum to make 1 gallon of Ethanol and about 2 gallons of petroleum to make 1 gallon of gasoline. and it takes a gallon and a half of ethanol to equal the Btu's in a gallon of gasoline which makes them about equalish in sustainability. and methanol is even worse taking just over two gallons to equal the potential energy in a gallon of gasoline. the second law of thermodynamics makes any product that uses energy in its manufacturing non sustainable. in my opinion wood would be the only "sustainable" fuel in my opinion. Just a few thoughts.
-kreate
Now wait a minute. How can that be? Isn't it the yeast that creates the alcohol? How is petroleum used in the creation of ethanol?
With respect to methanol, I know it's primary ingredient is typically methane, but methanol can be created by alternate means (see the link to NAU earlier in this thread).
HJ
Doc Mike
11-15-2011, 06:17
Now wait a minute. How can that be? Isn't it the yeast that creates the alcohol? How is petroleum used in the creation of ethanol?
With respect to methanol, I know it's primary ingredient is typically methane, but methanol can be created by alternate means (see the link to NAU earlier in this thread).
HJ
Easy question the following thing ussed in the production of ethanol use petro/coal....tractors,harvesters,trucks,fermentation plants,lights in the plants, barns and distrubution facilities.
Ethanol is not sustainable for two reasons one is the competition with food and the other is that at todays prices it actually costs more to produce it than it can sell for and is only currently viable thanks to a non-sustainable government subsidy. Biodeisel on the other hand could be sustaiable with an algea based production method.
my .02
HYOH YMMV
The common name for methanol back in the day was wood alcohol because it was made from wood. So it could be made without the use of petro except for the fact that petro is cheaper. When I'm hiking my carbon footprint is so small that I frankly don't worry about the type of fuel I use in my stove. Mostly yellow heet these days.
Doc Mike
11-15-2011, 08:27
The common name for methanol back in the day was wood alcohol because it was made from wood. So it could be made without the use of petro except for the fact that petro is cheaper. When I'm hiking my carbon footprint is so small that I frankly don't worry about the type of fuel I use in my stove. Mostly yellow heet these days.
Nice thought but not true. Yes wood alcohol is made by burning wood in a oxygen poor environment. So how do you heat the wood to do this? Burn wood you say..well thats possible but how do you harvest the wood and transport the wood? Unless thats a very short distance the amount of energy recovered in the form of methanol will be less than the energy required to make it. This of course is why we get it as a by product of petroleum manufacture of from natural gas.
As a Side note I think this carbon foot print thing is a bunch of Hogwash. The masses blindly follow where the misinformed lead. Carbon footprint, global warming, recycle plastic, all political propaganda.
Captain Blue
11-15-2011, 10:30
I have never heard of blue heat either. I use HEET in the yellow bottle. HEET is 99.9% methyl alcohol and .1% water. Methyl alcohol is also called methanol. When burned it produces water and carbon dioxide. It burns much cleaner than a wood fire.
Odd Man Out
11-15-2011, 10:48
As a Side note I think this carbon foot print thing is a bunch of Hogwash. The masses blindly follow where the misinformed lead. Carbon footprint, global warming, recycle plastic, all political propaganda.
As a side note, I think that ignoring your carbon foot print is a bunch of Hogwash. The masses blindly follow where the misinformed lead. Ignoring carbon footprint, denying global warming, failing to see the value of recycling, all political propaganda.
Doc Mike
11-15-2011, 12:13
As a side note, I think that ignoring your carbon foot print is a bunch of Hogwash. The masses blindly follow where the misinformed lead. Ignoring carbon footprint, denying global warming, failing to see the value of recycling, all political propaganda.
It takes more oil to recycle a plastic bottle than to make a new one. So for ever bottle recycled that is more money to those countries that hate us. Try doing the research before running your mouth or typing.
hikin_jim
11-15-2011, 15:17
Easy question the following thing ussed in the production of ethanol use petro/coal....tractors,harvesters,trucks,fermentation plants,lights in the plants, barns and distrubution facilities.
Ethanol is not sustainable for two reasons one is the competition with food and the other is that at todays prices it actually costs more to produce it than it can sell for and is only currently viable thanks to a non-sustainable government subsidy. Biodeisel on the other hand could be sustaiable with an algea based production method.
my .02
HYOH YMMVAh. I see what you mean. Points well taken. And here I thought I was being "green." :rolleyes:
Maybe I should just stick with stoves and not try to post about environmental issues.
HJ
hikin_jim
11-15-2011, 15:19
It takes more oil to recycle a plastic bottle than to make a new one. So for ever bottle recycled that is more money to those countries that hate us. Try doing the research before running your mouth or typing.
lol
Me and my big mouth. I'm sticking to purely technical stove issues from now on. :cool:
Carry on,
HJ
Try doing the research before running your mouth or typing.
It's easy to find studies that support about anything you wish to believe. Everyone in this debate has an agenda. Just sayin!
hikerboy57
11-15-2011, 15:32
one of the best ways to find research is to simply "run your mouth off" here on WB, and you'll be sure to be provided with a wealth of information both supporting and dismissing your:sun point of view.
Doc Mike
11-15-2011, 15:44
It's easy to find studies that support about anything you wish to believe. Everyone in this debate has an agenda. Just sayin!
Now this we can absolutely agee upon!!!
hikin_jim
11-15-2011, 15:46
Um, how about a nice noncontroversial stove post (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78534-Stove-of-the-Week-The-Trangia-27)? :D
HJ
hikerboy57
11-15-2011, 16:00
the reality of "green" is colored by economics. Most people will simply buy whats cheapest, irregardless of carbon footprints and environmental impact, and especially in todays economic environment.... otherwise the majority of the population would be commuting by bicycle.When gas shot up to $5/gal a few years ago, everyone wanted to buy hybrid cars, and as soon as gas came down, it was back to large SUVs all over again.as Ive seen in many of the posts above, the jury is out on almost evry "green" alternative.
Odd Man Out
11-15-2011, 16:04
It's easy to find studies that support about anything you wish to believe. Everyone in this debate has an agenda. Just sayin!
The exact point I was making, in a more rhetorical fashion.
It's easy to find studies that support about anything you wish to believe. Everyone in this debate has an agenda. Just sayin!
Sounds more like a cop-out. 2+2=4 every time. I.e. there are facts and there is a right and a wrong answer. Whether or not a person is intellectually honest enough to want to learn the truth is another matter.
I bet if we compared the fuel consumption of a weekend hiker (car+stove) to the fuel consumption of a thru-hiker there would be no comparison. I quit driving 11 years ago. I will burn whatever I want in my stove.
hikin_jim
11-16-2011, 00:09
I bet if we compared the fuel consumption of a weekend hiker (car+stove) to the fuel consumption of a thru-hiker there would be no comparison. I quit driving 11 years ago. I will burn whatever I want in my stove.
Actually that's a pretty good point. It's good to think about the environment. It's also good to keep things in perspective. :-?
HJ
On my last hike I was able to make soup quite effectively using vegetable oil and a jute string wick. A little slower and sootier than using alcohol, but because oil has up to twice the BTU/oz as alcohol, its promising. I would still bring alcohol but it allows you to spare some alcohol and use some of your food when getting low, as the vegetable oil doubles as food.
In terms of green-ness, I would skip the step of turning it into biodiesel, as that takes energy, and the kerosene burning stove is not neccessary for small meals. Similarly, vegetable oil is probably greener than alcohol because it avoids the energy required to distill the alcohol. Still, use both, and some wood sticks also, depending on the habitat you are hiking in that could be most green.
I bet if we compared the fuel consumption of a weekend hiker (car+stove) to the fuel consumption of a thru-hiker there would be no comparison. I quit driving 11 years ago. I will burn whatever I want in my stove.I agree with you on that. We can do alot more in our daily lives. To be honest, the main reason I try and develop and practice my own form of sustainability when I hike is because it is an interesting challenge, and I learn stuff from it. It's also alot easier to make find ways to be green when hiking. Even though it makes less of a difference. It can be hipocritical I guess, but its not that I don't try to make changes in the rest of my life. Its just harder, because it cost alot of money to make changes to your house, and the environmental payback isn't always there either. We can drive less, and buy less stuff we don't need, but I tend to do that already do to lack of $$$.
I agree with you that people need to come to their own realization when it comes to hiking and being green, which is I think what you are saying. Nature is the best mentor.
Doc Mike
11-16-2011, 11:06
Nature is the best mentor??
Like where one perfectly natural volcano erupts emitting more so called "greenhouse gases" than all the cars will for the next 100 years. This planet will cycle reguardless of what we do. Ice ages come and go thats the way it is. Or do we blames the global warming that occured ending that last ice age on the campfires of the cave man.
Burn what you want, do what you want in the end it won't matter.
hikin_jim
11-16-2011, 12:43
On my last hike I was able to make soup quite effectively using vegetable oil and a jute string wick.
Hmm! Now that's very interesting. What kind of "stove" were you using? What brand and type of vegetable oil? Do you have any photos of your set up?
HJ
Stove was a tin can. Vegetable oil was canola. Wick was hemp or jute twine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZiN8brc1bg
You want to start viewing around 5:20 for most of the stove action.
Correction. Stove was Rock's Ion Ti stand and windscreen. Burner was first a tealight tin, and later a slightly larger tin that I use as my char burner. More pics towards the end of the show, after I broke my nose and blackened my eye. I used oil for cooking slowly, but also some alcohol for boiling up some water more quickly for when I decided to clean up my "wound" a bit. I took lots of pics because I didn't have a mirror.
Good reason to carry a mirror.
Nature is the best mentor??
Like where one perfectly natural volcano erupts emitting more so called "greenhouse gases" than all the cars will for the next 100 years. This planet will cycle reguardless of what we do. Ice ages come and go thats the way it is. Or do we blames the global warming that occured ending that last ice age on the campfires of the cave man.
Burn what you want, do what you want in the end it won't matter.Well, you also have to be a good student. Catch22. lol
Currently, we are the volcano. But same difference. lol
Pedaling Fool
11-16-2011, 15:39
I've always been the type of person that hates waste; it kills me to see tons of stuff being mindlessly thrown away. Or the mindless mining of minerals for completely unnecessary stuff. Or the unecessary use of energy for some of the most mundane past times, such as lights being left on or tvs being left on or sprinklers on during a rainstorm... That's why I'm big into recycling, however, it just doesn't seem to be enough, we just keep wasting things and wasting...
So when the thought of waste overtakes me, which it does periodically, I just watch this video and all is good. It just gives me a certain feeling of comfort http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NRccYV_M1c&feature=related
Odd Man Out
11-16-2011, 16:47
Like where one perfectly natural volcano erupts emitting more so called "greenhouse gases" than all the cars will for the next 100 years.
Try doing the research before running your mouth or typing.
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=31313
http://www.agu.org/pubs/pdf/2011EO240001.pdf
Thanks for those links. I should have said we are the supervolcano.
Pedaling Fool
11-16-2011, 19:07
I bet if we compared the fuel consumption of a weekend hiker (car+stove) to the fuel consumption of a thru-hiker there would be no comparison. I quit driving 11 years ago. I will burn whatever I want in my stove.I'm kind of on the same page as this guy; I ride a bike as my primary form of transportation, so I'm already greener than the majority of all you losers:p;) So when I hike I really don't care about going green -- other than saying "NO" to slackpacking, that probably prevents a lot of people from being "green" during a hike...and they're usually the enviro-nut jobs:)
But with respect to the various stove designs and fuels, I think this guy has really done his homework and I believe he's participated on here, but I'm sure someone will know... http://zenstoves.net/StoveChoices.htm
Odd Man Out
11-16-2011, 19:41
Thanks for those links. I should have said we are the supervolcano.
Your Welcome. And in case you are interested, here is an article that reviews several research papers comparing the energy consumption of recycling vs production from virgin resources.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344905000029
You probably can not read the whole article without paying (Thanks Elsevier), but the abstract contains the key conclusion regarding the energy savings of recycling plastic.
I have a stove that burns olive oil. Is that considered biodiesel?
rocketsocks
11-16-2011, 19:52
Bear pie's little stinky,but should burn:-?
I have a stove that burns olive oil.
Which of your stoves burn oil?
I found my vegetable oil burner to be particularly suitable for brewing soup, and continuing to simmer the soup even as you are chowing down on it. You can start the soup from a cold start, which I think makes for better soup, and start chowing down after about 10-15 minutes. If you are not in a hurry the light and warmth is nice while you take your time eating the soup as it continues to brew, so it might take about 30 minutes by the time you are done, but when solo, at night, there should be no real hurry and it gives you something to do. If in a hurry, alcohol is better. The same burner and stand and wind screen should be able to do both, but on that trip I found a slightly larger diameter but shallower burner better for the oil. Also, you need the wicks of course. I found the best wicks to be that cheap hemp or jute twine you get in hardware stores. You go through a few inches each burn so you will need a foot or two, but it doesn't weigh much, and you could use it as cordage I suppose, though the cheap stuff is pretty weak. Good for lashings for an emergency shelter though, or make a chair or something if you wanted to mess around. Biodegradable.
I've tried making semi-pressurized types, and using lamp type wicks, but didn't get as far as with simple string wicks. For the wick I didn't use single strands. I used a 3-4" piece sort of bundled up into a loosely balled knot.
Haven't tried it in really cold winter conditions yet, but I think it would be just a matter of a bigger wick and somewhat larger diameter burner, and perhaps some insulation underneath to insulate it from the ground or snow, and of course a better wind screen and more fuel, and patience.
I found my vegetable oil burner to be particularly suitable for brewing soup, ...........................
For the wick I didn't use single strands. I used a 3-4" piece sort of bundled up into a loosely balled knot.
OK..I'm getting the picture now. So how much fuel for a 30 min burn? I'm assuming you burn up the wick by the time you finish cooking.
About 0.5 oz. You can adjust the burn rate by adding more wick. Also, its safe to add a few more drops of fuel as its burning because it doesn't flash. 0.5 oz in 30min, or about 1oz per hour would be about 1000 btu/hour, or enough to heat up 900ml or water by 200F at 40% efficiency, roughly. 10min to 30min for 0.25 to 0.5 oz is your ballpark, with more soot as you try and go faster and less soot but more time as you go slower. Not sure where the sweet spot is in terms of efficiency, but it would depend on how much water you are heating up and the ambient temperature. You can use a burner with more surface or less surface, and do some experimenting with tricks to preheat the oil or raise the combustion temperatures and stuff. That stainless steel bowl with the slightly flattened bottom seemed to work great with this sort of burner and stand, so I might use it again. Haven't tried my new Ti pot, which I just got on sale. Insulating the bottom of the burner and of course a wind screen is always a good idea, but especially with an oil burner because it helps if the oil can get hotter, especially when its cold out. Again, the liquid fuel can get really hot, like 500F, so you don't want to spill it, but you do want it to be on bare ground if it does spill, and you don't want more than 0.5 oz in the burner at once for safety and so that it can heat up faster. Experiment, but play safe. The biggest risk, and only serious risk with this sort of fuel, is spilling hot liquid. Same with wax, by the way, once it is completely melted it can get flesh and bone burning hot if you let it. Some drops of water spilling onto the fuel could also be a serious risk, if a large quantity of fuel manages to get hotter than 212F. With 0.25 to 0.5 oz of fuel it is unlikely to get much over that until it burns down some, but its definitely a possibility, especially if you insulate and shield the burner for better wicking and combustion, and refuel on the fly. Bear that in mind also.
Thanks JAK ..I've got a bottle of stale EVOO. I'll be experimenting this weekend.
Odd Man Out
11-17-2011, 10:56
I have a stove that burns olive oil. Is that considered biodiesel?
Biodiesel is made from vegetable oil, but they are different. Biodiesel has a much lower flash point than veg oil, but higher than petroleum diesel.
Vegetable oil tends to be a little gummier also, and doesn't work so well with a proper wick, but works fine with the "consumable" wicks that I use. Extra virgin olive oil is less gummy. Light is less smokey than dark. Canola oil burns as well as extra virgin light, and is cheaper, but doesn't taste as good in salads, although I like it with oats and fish. For small quantities I don't mind using olive oil for fuel, but I often take canola oil anyway. I took canola last time so maybe olive oil next time.
Wise Old Owl
11-17-2011, 21:16
Wait _ I just drove 5 hours to be on the trail and hike some 20 miles I will use 1 ounce of bio diesel to warm my food, then drive home.... I really just helped the environment -- cough cough.... wow look at the size of my dogs turd on my carbon footprint man..... glad I didn't step on it....
isn't this the humor forum.? Now what was I doing....
Wise Old Owl
11-17-2011, 21:20
Honest - I am glad some here are not using propane disposable canisters or butane Iso, if you have discovered the benefit of using YELLOW heet, great, I am glad you switched. but discussions like this are full of holes.... You don't need an owl to point this out. woo.
I don't burn vegetable oil because its green. I burn it because it's simple.
Which of your stoves burn oil?
An oil burning version of the Super Stove and the old reliable Ring of Fire adapted for oil burning. Both are wick stoves.
A note about wicks, jute twine wick will not be consumed unless they are allowed to run out of fuel. Cotton balls make excellent burners, just snuff them out before they run out of fuel. Lots of easy ways to heat water.
hikin_jim
11-18-2011, 01:06
An oil burning version of the Super Stove and the old reliable Ring of Fire adapted for oil burning. Both are wick stoves.
A note about wicks, jute twine wick will not be consumed unless they are allowed to run out of fuel. Cotton balls make excellent burners, just snuff them out before they run out of fuel. Lots of easy ways to heat water.But does it burn biodiesel? :p
HJ
Odd Man Out
11-18-2011, 14:52
I think I will explore the veg oil stove more. I agree that being green is only part of the consideration. The fuel is the ultimate in low cost, high availability, high energy density, and low toxicity. What would be cooler than to be able to walk into any convenience store in the country and by a cheap bottle of liquid where half can be burned in your stove and the other half can go into your dinner.
But does it burn biodiesel? :p
HJ
Of course they will!!!:p You need to get out and do some research here at whiteblaze on stoves with wicks. :p
hikin_jim
11-21-2011, 02:28
Of course they will!!!:p You need to get out and do some research here at whiteblaze on stoves with wicks. :pYep. And this is the place to do it.
Thanks,
HJ