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Creek Dancer
11-15-2011, 16:16
I recently purchased a Big Agnes Storm King 0-degree down bag and a Big Agnes insulated sleeping pad which is rated R-15. The sleeping bag is the type where there is no down on the underside of the bag and the pad slips into a pocket. On a recent cold night, when the temps got down to about 30, my boyfriend and I tested the gear outside on a concrete patio. (This was the coldest night here in central North Carolina.) The upper part of the bag kept me plenty warm (as expected for a mere 30 degrees), but I felt some coolness underneath. My concern is that this “coolness” will turn to “COLD” in much colder temperatures, like down into to the teens.

Anyway, I want to improve the efficacy of the insulated pad, and of course I don’t want to spend a ton of money or carry a lot more weight. J I know one of those cheap Wal-Mart pads would help, but that’s a lot of bulk to carry. Any other ideas?

Thanks so much for your help.

Creeky

pyroman53
11-15-2011, 17:47
While I am not an engineer, I think testing your bag on concrete is probably one of the harder tests you could have chosen. It might be worse than sleeping on snow. As to improving the results, you've got the right idea - add insulation.

Your idea of using the Blue Walmart pad is about all I can think of. Sure there are other closed cell foam pad choices, but short of getting another air mattress that's warmer, thats about all I can think of. I am a cold sleeper and have had no luck with the BA pads below 40 degrees, even the insulated one, which sounds like what you have.

I would say to add the ccf pad on top of the air mattress, but that's always a good discussion in itself.

10-K
11-15-2011, 18:19
The concrete was the problem. Pitch your tent on real ground, sleep inside the tent and see how that works.

That is, do a real life simulation.

scope
11-15-2011, 18:41
All true regarding concrete which was no doubt colder than normal ground. Keep in mind, the more you heat up both your bag and pad, the more efficient they become at insulating, not only from the cold, but in retaining your heat. So much of how your system works depends on what you put into it.

Get into your bag warm, and don't wear so many clothes that they act as a barrier between your body heat and the bag. Both are somewhat impractical, so a hot water bottle between your legs does a good job of producing the heat needed to start the system right at the beginning of the night, which in turn makes your system more efficient through the night.

Toolshed
11-15-2011, 19:05
Agree with the concrete comment. I think snow is even warmer LOL..
However, you may not want to deal with the bulk of another pad, but it is a safety system in the winter. In the event your pad blows a hole or gets melted or leaks near a seam or valvestem. The blue foam pad is your backup system. You can try to get away with cut-up sections of pad for under your hips, shoulders and feet (or use your empty pack), but for true winter and cold weather safety, I rely on 2 pads. If you really hate bulk, you can use also bring another self-inflating pad...

tridavis
11-15-2011, 19:12
This is what you need: http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Pad/DualCore (http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Pad/DualCore) Made a world of difference in really cold weather.

Papa D
11-15-2011, 21:03
yes - what was said about concrete is true - I love sleeping on snow - my pad works right into a nice depression - make sure you do the following:

1) use a good pad -- thermarest 3/4"?
2) use a liner - I use a Montbell liner / vapor barrier - keeps things clean, adds about 5 deg to the rating
3) wear long johns but not a whole pile of clothing over that - too much makes you colder
4) wear a stocking cap
5) stay hydrated, eat carbs, and don't hold pee in (go before you go to bed - twice if possible)
6) sleep with a hot water bottle - good nalgene works fine - put it in your crotch
7) have a shot of whisky and a bit of chocolate - I don't care what they say about blood thinning - it's cold

glaux
11-15-2011, 22:43
I have a BA 15 degree bag, but it fails to keep me warm at 35 degrees. It's fine for 40+, though.

Camping Dave
11-15-2011, 22:54
Sure, concrete transfers heat well, but it's not the problem given the reasonably mild temps we've had on the east coast. If the cold seeps in from concrete at 30 degrees, it's going to pour in when you get down to 5 or 10. You need more insulation. Don't go out on a really cold night without more insulation because of questionable advice you get here. Get the dual core pad, or get a thin foam pad and put it on top of your air pad in the sleeve. If the cheap blue Walmart pad won't fit you can buy thinner (down to 1/8th inch thickness) pads online. Strap the pad on top of your pack. You won't notice the bulk.

skinewmexico
11-15-2011, 23:37
BA makes a sleeping pad that is R-15? I don't think so. BPL just tested about 25 mats, and only two of them were above R10. And the R value is effected by the thickness to which the pad is inflated. So I'd get a warmer pad (Exped Downmat 9?) and add a Gossamer Gear thinlight pad if you get cold. Look at some of Tipi Walter's posts, he knows pads. He only goes out in major winter storms I think.

scope
11-16-2011, 09:59
I just ditched my 4.9 R-rated BA pad for an Exped downmat rated 8-R.

Creek Dancer
11-16-2011, 10:24
Sure, concrete transfers heat well, but it's not the problem given the reasonably mild temps we've had on the east coast. If the cold seeps in from concrete at 30 degrees, it's going to pour in when you get down to 5 or 10. You need more insulation. Don't go out on a really cold night without more insulation because of questionable advice you get here. Get the dual core pad, or get a thin foam pad and put it on top of your air pad in the sleeve. If the cheap blue Walmart pad won't fit you can buy thinner (down to 1/8th inch thickness) pads online. Strap the pad on top of your pack. You won't notice the bulk.

As background, I am a seasoned backpacker and I have slept outdoors into the single digits, including on snow, many times. My previous cold weather sleeping gear was a Marmot Helium (15 degrees) and a BA Insulated Air Core. This previous setup worked fine for me, but I wanted a lower rated bag. I have concerns about my new set up because of the results of my recent test.

I intentionally slept on concrete, rather than the groud, because I wanted the temperatures underneath me to be as cold as possible for the reasons you described. (The temperature outside was only 30, and that was after a several warm days. I didn't think the ground would be very cold.) I realize I need more insulation underneath me which is why I posted the question here.

Gossamer Gear's pads are not very expensive and I can cut it to fit inside the underside pocket of my sleeping bag. This might be a good solution. Or what about using Reflextic (sp??) material, similar to the stuff that they make windsheild visors from? I read that this stuff has a R value of 4. This wouild be an inexpensive, lightweight and not bulky. But would this help? Anybody tried this?

I don't know where I got R-15 for the pad from. That is not correct. What I read is that the pad has a comfort raing to 15 degrees. Here is the pad: http://www.rei.com/product/815002/big-agnes-sand-mountain-sleeping-pad-regular-special-buy

Creek Dancer
11-16-2011, 10:26
I can't do a real life simulation because it's not cold enough around here.

chelko
11-16-2011, 11:39
I found what works best for me for two reasons is to use my North Face Goliath 0 dgree bag with a Thermarest full length 25 inch wide pad over a slumberjack full length closed cell foam pad. The Closed cell Foam pad is very light and I deal with the bulkyness by strapping it to the outside of my pack. Not only does it add noticable warmth but the added cushion is very much appriciated especially when sleeping in shelters on hard wooden floors.

I like putting the Foam pad underneath the inflatable one to help protect it from any hazzards on the ground or floor. It also helps keep my inflatable clean.

Wise Old Owl
11-16-2011, 17:51
I can't do a real life simulation because it's not cold enough around here.

After reading the thread - the water bottle and layering is a good solution, as for an extra blue pad - not a fan there. So I think that's all you should do- it doesn't get cold enough - and the one night it does? rare, would you really be out in the first place or were you thinking in a emergency? I frequently type the zip code of where I am going - and get a ten day average from intellicast.

sbhikes
11-16-2011, 18:28
I recently purchased a Big Agnes Storm King 0-degree down bag and a Big Agnes insulated sleeping pad which is rated R-15. The sleeping bag is the type where there is no down on the underside of the bag and the pad slips into a pocket. On a recent cold night, when the temps got down to about 30, my boyfriend and I tested the gear outside on a concrete patio. (This was the coldest night here in central North Carolina.) The upper part of the bag kept me plenty warm (as expected for a mere 30 degrees), but I felt some coolness underneath. My concern is that this “coolness” will turn to “COLD” in much colder temperatures, like down into to the teens.

Anyway, I want to improve the efficacy of the insulated pad, and of course I don’t want to spend a ton of money or carry a lot more weight. J I know one of those cheap Wal-Mart pads would help, but that’s a lot of bulk to carry. Any other ideas?

Thanks so much for your help.

Creeky

First thing I thought when you said you slept on concrete was Brrrr! What a way to make it feel colder than it really is!

And there's your answer: site selection.

If it's going to be cold enough to put my sleeping bag at the edge of my comfort zone, I try to choose a spot that is under a tree so that the tree branches will provide some shelter from dew, wind and hold some of the heat in. (Make sure there are no branches to fall on you.) Also under a tree I'm more likely to sleep on leaves rather than bare dirt. A nice layer of duff will be more insulated than bare dirt and more comfortable. I try to select a location that is not at the bottom of a cold sink, such as next to a creek or lake or in a meadow. Instead if I can find a site partway up a slope, even only 10 or 20 feet higher in elevation, I know I'll be warmer than at the bottom of a canyon or the top of a windy ridge.

Creek Dancer
11-16-2011, 19:09
First thing I thought when you said you slept on concrete was Brrrr! What a way to make it feel colder than it really is!

And there's your answer: site selection.

If it's going to be cold enough to put my sleeping bag at the edge of my comfort zone, I try to choose a spot that is under a tree so that the tree branches will provide some shelter from dew, wind and hold some of the heat in. (Make sure there are no branches to fall on you.) Also under a tree I'm more likely to sleep on leaves rather than bare dirt. A nice layer of duff will be more insulated than bare dirt and more comfortable. I try to select a location that is not at the bottom of a cold sink, such as next to a creek or lake or in a meadow. Instead if I can find a site partway up a slope, even only 10 or 20 feet higher in elevation, I know I'll be warmer than at the bottom of a canyon or the top of a windy ridge.

Like I said, I intentionally tested the set up on concrete because I figured it would be colder than the ground.

Those are all great ideas and some of which I have used in the past. Thanks!

skinewmexico
11-16-2011, 20:51
Do the sides of the bag wrap around the pad, or is the pad exposed? If it's exposed, I'd try some Reflectix or Thinmat on top. If it's not exposed, I'd try them underneath the pad. The Big Agnes IAC tested up to R6.8 fully inflated, so it ought to be warm. The GG Thinmat will fold up smaller than the Reflectix, I think.

I do think Marmot makes much better bags. Have you compared EN ratings on the two? And is the Storm King giant?

Had to look at the specs. Your Storm King is 8" bigger in the shoulders and hips than your Marmot, and only has 3 more ounces of a cheaper down. For a rating that is 15 degrees warmer. I now have to fall into the I'm not surprised you felt cool category, even without a bottom. You'd probably have better luck wearing extra clothes in the SK to try to fill some space.

JAK
11-16-2011, 21:19
Choosing better ground can make a difference. Not to solid. In winter you want to pick a spot that would not have to much ice in it. Under a spruce tree or something like that is ideal. Don't remember exactly why, but being an evergreen tree, with shallow roots, that needs to drink all year round, it does something to keep it drier and warmer underneath. I think the main thing is that the branches keep the heat from radiating to the sky at night, but there is a little more to it also. I think it has to do with the water going up during the day, warming up, and then going back down at night, so heat from the sun is stored in the ground, and so kept a little warmer than the surroundings. Also, snow is captured and shed by the branches, so the ground doesn't have to melt the snow.

So pick a good spot, especially on really cold nights, and you should be alright. The ground underneath you in winter should not be as cold as the air, at least not on the coldest nights, so you should not need as much r-value under you as over you. Also, if the ground is reasonably aerated, it should also eventually establish a temperature gradient, so it will provide some additional r-value in that sense, but you have to heat it up a bit first. Concrete is the exact opposite of that, on both counts. Similar to solid rock or solid ice. Not good.

You could learn all this from animals. Think like a deer.

Creek Dancer
11-16-2011, 21:24
Do the sides of the bag wrap around the pad, or is the pad exposed? If it's exposed, I'd try some Reflectix or Thinmat on top. If it's not exposed, I'd try them underneath the pad. The Big Agnes IAC tested up to R6.8 fully inflated, so it ought to be warm. The GG Thinmat will fold up smaller than the Reflectix, I think.

I do think Marmot makes much better bags. Have you compared EN ratings on the two? And is the Storm King giant?

Had to look at the specs. Your Storm King is 8" bigger in the shoulders and hips than your Marmot, and only has 3 more ounces of a cheaper down. For a rating that is 15 degrees warmer. I now have to fall into the I'm not surprised you felt cool category, even without a bottom. You'd probably have better luck wearing extra clothes in the SK to try to fill some space.

The sides of the bag do not wrap around the pad and the pad is not exposed. The pad slips into a sleeve on the underside the bag. To get additional insulation next to my body (which is where I think is where it would do most good...??), I would need to cut it to the same size as the pad and slip it into the sleeve on top of the pad.

I only felt coolness underneath me - not all over - which is why I think I need more insulation under me. But you make a good point about the extra space in the bag when compared to the Marmot. I will have my down jacket with me and I could use that and other clothing, if necessary to fill up the space.

Thanks to everyone for the help. :))

DBCFlash
11-16-2011, 22:58
Was you pad rectangular or tapered? I can see a real problem with gaps if you used a tapered pad with a rectangular bag. I have a BA 15 degree bag with a rectangular BA pad and was toasty warm down to the lower 20's.

Creek Dancer
11-17-2011, 06:57
Was you pad rectangular or tapered? I can see a real problem with gaps if you used a tapered pad with a rectangular bag. I have a BA 15 degree bag with a rectangular BA pad and was toasty warm down to the lower 20's.

The bag is mummy shaped, as well as the pad.

Marta
11-17-2011, 07:02
I personally don't find the BA pads to be warm enough to sleep on when it gets below about forty at night. I second the idea of getting a thin CCF pad to go between you and the pad in cold weather. It wouldn't take much of a pad. I have a quarter inch pad that I bought years ago to use in hammocks. Something like that could be trimmed to fit inside the sleeve, and would probably be just enough to cut down on the contact between your body and the cold air inside the inflated pad.

My husband is a devotee of the BA pad and sleeping bag systems because they prevent him from rolling off the mat during the night. So we've dealt with this issue for several years.

Creek Dancer
11-17-2011, 07:22
I personally don't find the BA pads to be warm enough to sleep on when it gets below about forty at night. I second the idea of getting a thin CCF pad to go between you and the pad in cold weather. It wouldn't take much of a pad. I have a quarter inch pad that I bought years ago to use in hammocks. Something like that could be trimmed to fit inside the sleeve, and would probably be just enough to cut down on the contact between your body and the cold air inside the inflated pad.

My husband is a devotee of the BA pad and sleeping bag systems because they prevent him from rolling off the mat during the night. So we've dealt with this issue for several years.

I think the idea of a using a CCF pad is the way to go. Gossamer Gear sells seconds, which are cheaper, and perfect since I am going to have to cut it anyway.

Hope you are doing well, Marta. I don't know if you remember me, but we met a several years ago at SoRuck, after your SOBO (I think), and again at Trail Days. One of these days I am going on one of Mocs' trips, that is - if he ever plans one that does not require 20 mile days. Those are tough right out of the gate for us weekend warriors. :)

DeerPath
11-17-2011, 07:41
Put an Emergency Blanket between you and the ground. It will reflect your body heat back to you. Weights about 1.7 oz. and is cheap, about $3.00.

Tom Murphy
11-17-2011, 10:20
The storm king is a semi-mummy, the Pomer Hoit is a mummy bag. You need to pack stuff in around you to fill up that extra space.

I have the BA Encampment which is a semi-mumy shape and rated for 15 deg F. Due to the large amount of dead air space, it works to about 30 deg F for me. I use it as an overbag to extend my MARMOT Sawtooth to below its rated temp of 15 deg F or as a summer bag when someone hikes with me and bneeds a bag. It has been great as an overbag. With the Sawtooth inside the Encampment and a CCF pad with with the BA insulated aircore pad I have been comfortable at sub zero temps.

So my solution was to buy a true mummy shape bag from a vendor that rates the bags per the EN standard.

sbhikes
11-17-2011, 14:56
Choosing better ground can make a difference. Not to solid. In winter you want to pick a spot that would not have to much ice in it. Under a spruce tree or something like that is ideal. Don't remember exactly why, but being an evergreen tree, with shallow roots, that needs to drink all year round, it does something to keep it drier and warmer underneath. I think the main thing is that the branches keep the heat from radiating to the sky at night, but there is a little more to it also. I think it has to do with the water going up during the day, warming up, and then going back down at night, so heat from the sun is stored in the ground, and so kept a little warmer than the surroundings. Also, snow is captured and shed by the branches, so the ground doesn't have to melt the snow.


Interesting. I always could feel that it was warmer to sleep under a tree but never quite understood all the reasons why. Where I usually hike the trees are usually oaks, not evergreens, but maybe they do similar things.

B-Rabbit
11-17-2011, 15:12
I just purchased a BA insulated pad and used it for the first time deer hunting. The temps dropped down to around 30 degrees and I was cold! I never had that problem before when I was using the same sleeping bag on the cheap wal-mart blue pad. This is concerning to me because I bought this pad for my thru hike this spring. Wondering if I made a mistake with the BA? Everyone else seemed to rave about them.

skinewmexico
11-17-2011, 16:36
Oops-double post

skinewmexico
11-17-2011, 16:38
Which BA pad did you buy? Some of them are uninsulated. And most air mattresses, unless you're using and Exped Downmat or Stephenson Warmlite, start needing some CCF pad help around freezing. I have used my POE Ether Thermo 6 down into the low 20s with no issues, but not on snow.

Marta
11-17-2011, 17:04
Of course I remember you! I hope you can make it to the SoRuck is winter. In the meantime, Happy Hiking! And don't let Mocs wear you to a frazzle.

Creek Dancer
11-17-2011, 17:17
Of course I remember you! I hope you can make it to the SoRuck is winter. In the meantime, Happy Hiking! And don't let Mocs wear you to a frazzle.

Nice that you remembered me. :)

I haven't been to SoRuck since the time I met you. I just checked out the website and I am definately interested in going this year! Maybe I will see you there.

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2011, 20:51
Put an Emergency Blanket between you and the ground. It will reflect your body heat back to you. Weights about 1.7 oz. and is cheap, about $3.00.

noisy and un productive. - tried it. - it sucked.

Tinker
11-18-2011, 00:21
Sure, concrete transfers heat well, but it's not the problem given the reasonably mild temps we've had on the east coast. If the cold seeps in from concrete at 30 degrees, it's going to pour in when you get down to 5 or 10. You need more insulation. Don't go out on a really cold night without more insulation because of questionable advice you get here. Get the dual core pad, or get a thin foam pad and put it on top of your air pad in the sleeve. If the cheap blue Walmart pad won't fit you can buy thinner (down to 1/8th inch thickness) pads online. Strap the pad on top of your pack. You won't notice the bulk.

or you can use the extra pad as a "liner" inside of your backpack if it doesn't have a divider. I have a frameless pack and use a blue foam pad this way (basically, it's the "frame" and makes a nice doormat under my hammock or a sit pad while cooking) even though I don't need it for camping (my sleeping bag goes around my hammock, insulating me top and bottom).
And, yes, use the foam pad on top. It makes little difference in warmth when used on the bottom (though it is a good way to minimize punctures when used underneath).

DBT fan
11-18-2011, 00:35
I have a BA 40 degree bad and a BA dual core pad which sleeps great.......until the temp falls below about 45 degrees. Even with a long sleeve shirt and log john bottoms, a fleece cap and gloves I still get cold. The problem is not the pad but the backless bag. When will BA wise up and insulate the bag like everyone else does? I love the pad but will never buy another backless BA bag again.

Creek Dancer
11-18-2011, 09:55
I have a BA 40 degree bad and a BA dual core pad which sleeps great.......until the temp falls below about 45 degrees. Even with a long sleeve shirt and log john bottoms, a fleece cap and gloves I still get cold. The problem is not the pad but the backless bag. When will BA wise up and insulate the bag like everyone else does? I love the pad but will never buy another backless BA bag again.

The lack of any insulation or fill on the underside of the bag is the reason I did the test to begin with. I was not confident, and I am still not confident, that this design will work for me. I mean, the only thing between your skin and the pad is whatever you are wearing and a thin layer of sleeping bag fabric. Hopefully I can remedy this by adding a CCF pad.

tridavis
11-18-2011, 10:53
You could always use a fleece liner.

Janeway
11-18-2011, 11:34
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by DeerPath http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1219348#post1219348)
Put an Emergency Blanket between you and the ground. It will reflect your body heat back to you. Weights about 1.7 oz. and is cheap, about $3.00.



noisy and un productive. - tried it. - it sucked.

My brother and nephew have a REI Space All Weather Blanket (12 oz, 7'X5' - This reinforced fabric blanket reflects 80% of radiated body heat back to you. Use for warmth under a tent, bivy sack or for emergencies). It's multi purpose (I like spreading it on the ground for a "kitchen table"), seems quite sturdy and has grommets at each corner, so I guess it could also be a tarp. On a recent Knobstone Trail (IN) outing it got quite cold and they related that they spread it under their pads, or maybe between pad and sleeping bags, and said they could just feel the warmth radiating upwards. It's multi-use and not crinkly. At 12 ounces and 7'x5', it seems too big and heavy for my use, but I've considered cutting it down so it would still be useful as a kitchen table, and a coldweather tent floor.

Creek Dancer
11-18-2011, 15:47
My brother and nephew have a REI Space All Weather Blanket (12 oz, 7'X5' - This reinforced fabric blanket reflects 80% of radiated body heat back to you. Use for warmth under a tent, bivy sack or for emergencies). It's multi purpose (I like spreading it on the ground for a "kitchen table"), seems quite sturdy and has grommets at each corner, so I guess it could also be a tarp. On a recent Knobstone Trail (IN) outing it got quite cold and they related that they spread it under their pads, or maybe between pad and sleeping bags, and said they could just feel the warmth radiating upwards. It's multi-use and not crinkly. At 12 ounces and 7'x5', it seems too big and heavy for my use, but I've considered cutting it down so it would still be useful as a kitchen table, and a coldweather tent floor.

I looked at these on the REI website. Too big and heavy for my purposes as well, but I can see how this would be a great for some uses as you mentioned. In fact, I think I will get my kids one to keep in their cars during the winter. If the car breaks down, I think this would keep them warm.

leaftye
11-18-2011, 16:26
BA makes a sleeping pad that is R-15? I don't think so. BPL just tested about 25 mats, and only two of them were above R10. And the R value is effected by the thickness to which the pad is inflated. So I'd get a warmer pad (Exped Downmat 9?) and add a Gossamer Gear thinlight pad if you get cold. Look at some of Tipi Walter's posts, he knows pads. He only goes out in major winter storms I think.

I'm glad you caught this. I was thinking: R-15? Big Agnes?? Why did I just buy a down air mattress?!?

No, Big Agnes does not make a pad that warm. Something that warm would be comfortable at temperatures far below 0°F.

Most likely the pad being used is the Big Agnus Insulated Air Core, which is comfort rated to 15°F, yet has an R-value of only 4.1. I'd personally want an R-value of at least 5 when the temperature is around freezing, and probably 8 when the temperature drops to 0° although I will admit that I do not have any experience at 0°F.

Creek Dancer
11-18-2011, 17:04
I'm glad you caught this. I was thinking: R-15? Big Agnes?? Why did I just buy a down air mattress?!?

No, Big Agnes does not make a pad that warm. Something that warm would be comfortable at temperatures far below 0°F.

Most likely the pad being used is the Big Agnus Insulated Air Core, which is comfort rated to 15°F, yet has an R-value of only 4.1. I'd personally want an R-value of at least 5 when the temperature is around freezing, and probably 8 when the temperature drops to 0° although I will admit that I do not have any experience at 0°F.

Evidently you missed my post where I corrected this and posted a link to the pad that I tested.