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The Walker
11-17-2011, 12:41
Any thoughts on the best brand and the benefits and detriments?

I read that about 20% of the pressure on the legs is displaced to the upper body. One article said that it takes about 11 pounds of weight off the legs on flat ground and 17 on the uphills ( they must be assuming an average weight person ).

How did they effect your overall energy over the same distance after going from no poles to using 2 poles?

Lando11
11-17-2011, 12:54
I used trekking poles pretty much on the whole AT this year, until my lekis broke in Maine with about a 100 miles to go. On flat terrain, I think poles are useless. they helped me stay in good rhythm, but that is about it for flat walking. where they kick ass though, is on climbs and descents. I did feel like I used more energy with poles then without, but it would be tough to tell honestly since I had already hiked 2000 miles at that time and my legs were in crazy good shape.
I would definitely recommend poles for any long distance hike, unless you never carry more then 20 lbs(which isn't too many folks on the AT).

Buffalo Skipper
11-17-2011, 13:07
...I would definitely recommend poles for any long distance hike, unless you never carry more then 20 lbs(which isn't too many folks on the AT).

Just curious, why would not recomend poles with pack weights above 20 lbs? Seems to me that the more weight you carry, the greater the benefit for poles, especially, as you say, when going up or down.

FWIW, I work to keep my pack weight at or below 20 lbs. When I am light, and I loan my poles to someone for a mile to try out, I don't much notice the difference. But when I am heavier, I can really tell the difference. YMMV.

10-K
11-17-2011, 13:11
If I'm wearing a backpack I generally have my Black Diamond hiking poles (do not like Leki - every pair I've ever had (3) have broken at the worse possible time).

They come in very handy and I don't know how many times I've saved myself from a fall by catching myself with a pole.

scope
11-17-2011, 13:14
Just curious, why would not recomend poles with pack weights above 20 lbs? Seems to me that the more weight you carry, the greater the benefit for poles, especially, as you say, when going up or down...

I think you misread the previous post.

skinewmexico
11-17-2011, 13:21
My knees insist on poles for downhills now.

Kerosene
11-17-2011, 13:28
I don't think that I recognized any real impact on my energy, at least not to the point that it was noticeable aside from my fitness level. However, they do improve stability, particularly on uneven sections of trail, and they have certainly helped me to keep hiking as my knees have degraded.

scope
11-17-2011, 13:33
Any thoughts on the best brand and the benefits and detriments?

I read that about 20% of the pressure on the legs is displaced to the upper body. One article said that it takes about 11 pounds of weight off the legs on flat ground and 17 on the uphills ( they must be assuming an average weight person ).

How did they effect your overall energy over the same distance after going from no poles to using 2 poles?

No thoughts on brand since I use the Walmart poles (I'm sure Lekis, etc. work better, but certainly the cheap ones work well enough). I think I would agree that 20% is a good average figure of muscle rearrangement, if you will. I don't think I see much in the way of pounds savings on level ground, but there is a rhythmic motion efficiency that I believe negates the idea that you're carrying something when its not needed.

I would add that there is a dynamic aspect to the displaced pressure on the legs that underscores the true value of poles. Its not just about additional leverage going up (or down which is as important if not more so), but also the fact that on the trail, your steps aren't always consistent dependent upon many things, including rocks, roots, minor crossings, incline of the ridge you're on, etc. The poles do two things with this regard... 1) they help balance out the inconsistencies so that you are able to take more consistent steps, which over the course of a long trip is significant, and 2) perhaps even more significant is when those inconsistent steps start to throw you off balance, you have something else to restore balance than using additional muscular power in your legs.

Its the conservation of dynamic power in your legs that helps you feel better as you're hiking. Kind of the difference of walking on the sidewalk using almost no power and walking up steps to the point that your legs become wobbly and less responsive. Poles help maximize the former feeling and minimize the latter feeling.

ChinMusic
11-17-2011, 13:45
Many hikers find the poles more for aiding in stability than anything. My reason for using poles is keep from falling or tweaking my knees.

I don't have the aerobic conditioning to use the poles as a performance aid on uphills. I've seen very fit folks just going into power FWD and flying on the ups.

Bat321
11-17-2011, 14:02
I always hike with my poles: power uphill, balance and the work for putting my hammock tarp in porch mode.
The key in using them is to know how to hike with poles. The tip gets planted around even with the heel and you push the pole behind you propelling yourself forward. Poles don't go in front except for downhill or when being used for balance.

Tom Murphy
11-17-2011, 14:15
I also use my poles on the flats to propel myself forward; search the net for nordic walking.

Buffalo Skipper
11-17-2011, 14:23
I think you misread the previous post.

Of course I did. I read it three times and missed the double negative. As a grammar freak, I feel a bit embarrassed. :o

Dislexics of the world, UNTIE!

Lone Wolf
11-17-2011, 14:26
Any thoughts on the best brand and the benefits and detriments?

I read that about 20% of the pressure on the legs is displaced to the upper body. One article said that it takes about 11 pounds of weight off the legs on flat ground and 17 on the uphills ( they must be assuming an average weight person ).

How did they effect your overall energy over the same distance after going from no poles to using 2 poles?never saw the need to walk with sticks

moytoy
11-17-2011, 14:28
I also use my poles on the flats to propel myself forward; search the net for nordic walking.
I go out and nordic walk a lot and people give me some crazy stares. It's gives a pretty good uperbody workout along with the walking conditioning.

moytoy
11-17-2011, 14:30
sp. upper ...I really need to make a donation so I can edit. and other reasons...

rocketsocks
11-17-2011, 15:17
I'm a victum of lysdexia I can't tell my left right my from,long a sing,long a sing body every long a sing."the doo doo wahs"The people that follow this band are called doo doo heads.I dont like using two hiking poles,a single stick for me,got to for the knees.

Odd Man Out
11-17-2011, 17:26
I also use my poles on the flats to propel myself forward; search the net for nordic walking.
I was reading this web page the other day about this very thing. Lots of video, text, and graphics to explain. Of course they are trying to sell their own unique trekking poles (which I have not tried), but I think the principles are the same no matter what brand you use.

Odd Man Out
11-17-2011, 17:27
I was reading this web page the other day about this very thing. Lots of video, text, and graphics to explain. Of course they are trying to sell their own unique trekking poles (which I have not tried), but I think the principles are the same no matter what brand you use.
forgot link:
http://www.pacerpole.com/

Kookork
11-17-2011, 19:42
forgot link:
http://www.pacerpole.com/

Thank you for the link. It seems a great product to me. The Price is not as great though. Especially having a camera mount is great.

Sarcasm the elf
11-17-2011, 19:56
I just walked in the door from a solid day hike. I decided to bring my hiking poles today even though I rarely use hiking poles unless I'm wearing a pack but I'm glad that I did. Today's trip was 14 miles in the rain on a leaf covered trail, hiking over roots and Connecticut granite and my hiking poles saved me from a tons of spills and saved my knees from a lot of abuse. As others have said, they are most useful on steep up hill and down hill sections, but they're also great when weather and conditions such as leaves or uneven treadway make things a bit more challenging, they're also great to have at river crossings where they have a more solid grip than your shoes.

I use black diamond poles with synthetic handles and shock absorbers, this is my personal preference and I highly recommend them. I like having telescoping poles, but if money is an issue there's honestly not that much of a difference between using these and using cheaper one piece poles, just as long as they have carbide/metal tips.

The one thing I wouldn't recommend buying are the Leki poles that use internal twisting locks, these mechanisms rely on plastic bushings to keep the telescoping sections in place and are (in my experience) subject to higher rates of failure than external locking mechanisms, I have also had friends complain that the Leki twist locks are difficult to operate in freezing conditions and can be fouled by snow and debris. That said, Leki now makes an external Flick-lock type mechanism that I expect works better than their older twist locks, but I haven't gotten a chance to try them out.

Rocket Jones
11-17-2011, 20:17
I've used the Pacer poles for almost a year now and really love them. The main drawback is that they're tricky to use as shelter poles because of the funky handle.

leaftye
11-18-2011, 00:59
I used to use poles all the time, but now I only use them when slipping is a concern, like on snow. I don't think they make me faster or slower, but my shoulders do get a little sore when I use them and in rainy weather they force my hands to be out in the rain instead of under my poncho. That said, I prefer lighter poles like my Gossamer Gear LT4's on dirt because they're so light I barely notice them, but I prefer sturdy poles like my Leki Super Makalu's on the snow because they're less likely to fail catastrophically...I broke a carbon fiber LT4 in the snow this summer and took a pretty good tumble shortly afterwards because I hadn't adapted to being short one pole.

rocketsocks
11-18-2011, 14:30
Have not done this yet,but I'm wanting to take my hiking stick cut It in half...install fitting like a pool stick(cue), and rejoin.Any thought's on how to achieve this?

rocketsocks
11-18-2011, 14:39
Hey odd man cool video,if I walk that switch back pattern on the Up&Downs,can I get credited for a turn around hike?:D

Odd Man Out
11-18-2011, 14:54
Hey odd man cool video,if I walk that switch back pattern on the Up&Downs,can I get credited for a turn around hike?:D

No, but it would be a good question to start a classic WB argument.

Spokes
11-18-2011, 15:28
Previous studies have indicated using poles do help decrease load stresses associated with hiking. However a recent study conducted by the United States Sports Academy (http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/load-carriage-force-production-comparison-between-standard-and-anti-shock-trekking-poles) found no benefit between standard poles, anti-shock poles, or no pole use.

Interestingly, a thesis (http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1324&context=theses) presented by Sunny Blue Atchison, found "the use of hiking poles increases the physiological demand for fit, recreational hikers during uphill hiking at self selected speeds without increasing RPE" (rate of perceived exertion). In other words, poles make you work harder physically but trick you into thinking your not.


That said, I still use mine.

CrumbSnatcher
11-18-2011, 16:51
having poles is like having 4 wheel drive :-)

leaftye
11-18-2011, 17:23
having poles is like having 4 wheel drive :-)

Until you break one, then you're like a 4-legged chair that's had a leg knocked out. At least I am and it left scars.

CrumbSnatcher
11-18-2011, 17:35
Until you break one, then you're like a 4-legged chair that's had a leg knocked out. At least I am and it left scars.operator error? :-)
broke a couple in my day too, i like how they helped power me uphill. most hikers prefer ups to down, like 90% or more but i enjoy the downs more,even run down hills often

Blue Jay
11-18-2011, 18:09
According To Leki advertisements, you use 20% more energy using poles. Granted they are trying to sell polls to people who want to lose weight. However, you who do not want to lose weight, in fact need to carry more food weight to compensate. This is not a positive. Sure it looks cool but you pay for that.

kayak karl
11-18-2011, 18:10
maybe its my age , but my pacer poles go with me even on flat south jersey hikes.

WingedMonkey
11-18-2011, 18:11
Any thoughts on the best brand and the benefits and detriments?

I read that about 20% of the pressure on the legs is displaced to the upper body. One article said that it takes about 11 pounds of weight off the legs on flat ground and 17 on the uphills ( they must be assuming an average weight person ).

How did they effect your overall energy over the same distance after going from no poles to using 2 poles?

I am somewhat confused that you are planning a speed hike of the AT for next year and have not already developed your own hiking style and use or not of poles. I would think by now that you would have that knowledge based on your own experience.
Have you done any long distance hikes, or is this speed hike your first attempt?

leaftye
11-18-2011, 18:13
operator error? :-)
broke a couple in my day too, i like how they helped power me uphill. most hikers prefer ups to down, like 90% or more but i enjoy the downs more,even run down hills often

I broke one pole going over the pass. I was just about out of the snow when I tripped over a branch protruding through the surface. Of course I put out my hand to catch myself with the pole. The first problem was that the pole wasn't there. The second problem was that I was at the top of a snow bank, so it ended up being more of a fall than a trip. I probably would have been better off it I put away the pole(s) because that likely would have changed my initial reaction that might have resulted in a better result.

Wise Old Owl
11-18-2011, 18:21
I've used the Pacer poles for almost a year now and really love them. The main drawback is that they're tricky to use as shelter poles because of the funky handle.

Prussic knot below the handle and/or carbiner with the included concrete string... but you may have already thought of that. And they are awkward handles....


Have not done this yet,but I'm wanting to take my hiking stick cut It in half...install fitting like a pool stick(cue), and rejoin.Any thought's on how to achieve this?

Most aluminum and carbon fiber poles are hollow - and will not work - that fitting is for a solid beach or hardwood pole.

Blue Jay
11-18-2011, 18:39
In other words, poles make you work harder physically but trick you into thinking your not.


This is exactly correct.

Meriadoc
11-18-2011, 18:40
See if you can try out a friend's poles on a hike. I have often lent mine out for people to try, some like the poles, some do not. The majority of those who have tried mine have gone on to purchase their own (anecdotal small sample).

I like my poles although I typically stow them on my pack in case I want them, and rarely take them out. When I break them out they usually catapult me into fast mode - they act like a metronome and I speed up my stride rate to match my poling rate. I will also use them on descents when I don't feel like being completely mentally engaged - otherwise poles slow me down (I hop/jog downhill). And if I don't feel like paying attention to footwork on a simple trail, poles are easy mode, the 4WD to which previous posters have referred.

Small sample of one:
I've seen the cheaper poles come apart after a single 5 day backpacking trip in the White Mountains. I love my Black Diamond poles although I really wish they had available a rubber tip that screwed onto the pole. The rubber booties fall right off in mud.

One last word: Poles save knees.

Malto
11-19-2011, 09:43
I broke one pole going over the pass. I was just about out of the snow when I tripped over a branch protruding through the surface. Of course I put out my hand to catch myself with the pole. The first problem was that the pole wasn't there. The second problem was that I was at the top of a snow bank, so it ended up being more of a fall than a trip. I probably would have been better off it I put away the pole(s) because that likely would have changed my initial reaction that might have resulted in a better result.

I use the same poles as Leaftye and I made it through 500 miles of snow without a scratch on my GG Lt4's. Then I broke them in three places in three days, all of them for stupid reasons.
1) I planted the pole then kicked the tip snapping the lower section.
2) I tripped and fell on them as I was bushwacking my way in search of the trail.
3) I took a break leaned the poles against a log and stepped back on one, breaking it.

I ended up ordering one replacement one in my next resupply and I was able to make field repairs using super glue and duct tape that likely is stronger than the original pole. One repair is still being used. But those poles saved my bacon several times, eliminating or reducing the impact of falls, assisting in stream crossings and by reducing the wear and tear on my joints.

Now to answer the trekking pole question in the context of the OP.... Trail runners don't usually use trekking poles, Scott Williamson doesn't use trekking poles, Sam Fox on his aborted PCT record attempt didn't start with trekking poles but used them after a couple hundred miles. But IMHO, if you are going to use them then use the lightest ones out there because that is a very inefficient place to put weight, probably second only to your feet or legs.

trovar
10-21-2012, 03:50
Among speed hikers, most use poles (Nature Boy, Adam Bradley, Tuna Helper, Skurka, etc). Scott Williamson, however, doesn't.

AdventureBuddies
10-22-2012, 09:46
It is true that, with optimal pole use, energy is transferred to the upper body.

On the uphill, optimal use recruits the lats, the obliques (twisting muscles) & the triceps. The lat attaches to the humerus (that's a bone, not a joke;)) of the upper arm. Strengthening of the lats is helpful for supporting, lubricating and elongating the spine (anti-aging).

On the downhill, optimal use recruits the rectus abdominus, pectoralis & biceps muscles.

Non-optimal use:
- on down can strain the thumb, hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder joints
- on up can strain the anterior deltoid (a smaller muscle) and upper body joints as well.

You get what you pay for with poles. My top of the line LEKI's have served me well for over 12 years and finding poles that fit means you get poles that:
- match your structure (height, weight & hand size)
- address your issues and
- will help you achieve your goals

ne4kftr
10-22-2012, 10:14
Never used them when younger (heck, they hadn't been invented in their current form).
That Said, I'm a lot older now, and My Likis have allowed me to catch myself/prevent a fall now and then, especially when I'm tired.
They seem to help quite a bit as I have a knee that is far from 100%. Stream/log crossings and bog bridges can be easier.
I don't take any serious Hikes without them now.

Lyle
10-22-2012, 10:19
Thank you for the link. It seems a great product to me. The Price is not as great though. Especially having a camera mount is great.


Not that much more money, and well worth it. I will not go back to traditional poles, these are so much more comfortable and efficient in several ways. I've been using them for 6 or 7 years now. I'm not a power walker, just as others have said, I use them for stability and to help protect the knees in downhills.

Lyle
10-22-2012, 10:30
Just wanted to add, I got my PacerPoles through ULA, when Brian Frankle was singing their praises and selling them. He used them and swore by the added comfort/efficiency.

ULA no longer sells them, must order direct from PacerPole, but they have been very good to deal with when I needed some replacement tips.

Pedaling Fool
10-22-2012, 11:42
Any thoughts on the best brand and the benefits and detriments?I'm thinking of doing away with my poles because of the detriments.

BENEFITS:
- Facilitates ones ability to get into a hiking rhythm -- although this rhythm is relatively short-lived, since energy use is increased while walking in this manner.
- Helps one maintain balance.
- Reduces load on downhill hiking

DETRIMENTS:
- Makes one dependent on poles to maintain balance; in lieu of one's stabilizing muscles.
- Makes one believe less weight saves knees. Actually, the only way to have healthy knees is to maintain a rigorous workout routine -- NOT by reducing workload.


I think the detriments, in the long run, far out weigh the benefits. I came to this conclusion while using a stair climbing machine at the gym. This machine has handrails and I noticed that it was extremely difficult to use this machine without putting my hands on the handrails, because with my hands on the rails it was almost effortless in maintaining my balance, in the same way hiking poles are used by so many to maintain balance. So in a sense, you're allowing the stabilizing muscles to somewhat atrophy.

Also if one uses poles to relieve knee pain on the downhills, then one forms the mindset that downhills are bad on the knees, i.e. emphasis on the downhill sections being bad; when really it's the knees that are inadequate and need to be built up.

Some say that poles allow them to get a better cardio workout and I agree that is a potential, because they allow you to get into a very aggressive rhythm, which involves proactively propelliing oneself with the poles, thereby incorporating the upper body in a very robust cardio workout. However, almost no one does this on a hike. They may do this for short periods of time, but most don't even do that.

What really happens is that the poles are just there to keep the body balanced, hence atrophy of the stabilizing muscles. And of course they're used to relieve stress on the knees, this usually is how the upperbody is mostly incorporated in the hike.