View Full Version : going green?
hikerboy57
11-17-2011, 21:31
WOO brought up an interesting point. we're talking about greenest fuel source, but what about all the hydrocarbons used to produce most of the gear the average backpacker carries.are there any purist "greenies" out there hiking in hemp espadrilles?Any othr ideas about going green on the trail?
Slo-go'en
11-17-2011, 22:00
Hurray for petrochemicals and synthetic materials!! I sure would hate to give up my plastic clothes and gear to go back the all natrual fibers of wool, cotton and leather. I know mankind got by with those fibers for 100's of 1000's of years, but glad I don't have too!
hikerboy57
11-17-2011, 22:01
leather????
I'm a vegetarian - not eating meat - (especially not supporting methane producing feed-lots and other highly fuel intensive animal product production methods) is maybe one of the best environmental moves you can make - - or at least consider for a while -- I try hard to re-use my zip lock bags (unless they are really nasty) and take other conservation measures. Also, folks on the trail, by definition are not using automobiles (except for the occasional shuttle) which is really great and most practice some level of LNT so hikers already have a "leg up" from an environmental perspective -- That said, I'm fine with hemp products too but you probably won't see me in the hemp espadrilles anytime soon.
HiKen2011
11-17-2011, 22:18
leather????
SNL only...........I think!
When in doubt of what is most sustainable, go with whatever is cheapest.
Sarcasm the elf
11-17-2011, 23:29
I may be misinformed, but it's my understanding that the tank of gas you burn driving to the trailhead will have a greater impact than any other single action you take while hiking.
hikerboy57
11-18-2011, 08:24
I may be misinformed, but it's my understanding that the tank of gas you burn driving to the trailhead will have a greater impact than any other single action you take while hiking.
"Take nothing but pictures,leave nothing but carbon footprints."
Pedaling Fool
11-18-2011, 10:46
What's wrong with the Green movement is that so much of what they see as green and sustainable is not at all, because it relies so heavily on agriculture. What really hurts the environment is the land use to support agriculture, which in turn supports us; it's a hell of a lot and where there's agriculture there's no biodiversity, including orgainic farming, so basically it's a wasteland. I wonder how much land we'd need in order to outfit everyone in hemp shoes:rolleyes: And that's why even most of the supporters of growing corn as a fuel source soon saw how idiotic and unsustainable the practice is.
The fact is, we can't live a natural lifestyle (whatever the hell that is) any more, not with 7 billion people and growing, because that in itself is not natural to have such a large population of an animal our size.
Go ahead and wear your hemp shoes, but don't think that's anymore sustainable than mass-produced shoes.
hikerboy57
11-18-2011, 10:54
I saw yesterday that someone has created a new fabric made from milk. gee I wonder what this would do to milk prices. being green is a very complicated subject, and most of the time it involves trade offs that sometimes bear unintended consequences.although smoking hemp is probably greener than cigarettes, less chemicals.
ChinMusic
11-18-2011, 11:19
I may be misinformed, but it's my understanding that the tank of gas you burn driving to the trailhead will have a greater impact than any other single action you take while hiking.
I once got chastised for throwing a Pop Tart wrapper in the campfire from a hiker that drove an SUV 300 miles for the weekend trip.
Old Boots
11-18-2011, 11:29
Milk clothes? How many cows? Talk about methane!!!
Sarcasm the elf
11-18-2011, 11:40
Milk clothes? How many cows? Talk about methane!!!
I know an easier way to turn cows into cloths.:D
beakerman
11-18-2011, 11:51
Personally I'm all for saving the planet from those darned methane farting/belching cows...but I can only eat so much at a time.
Captain Blue
11-18-2011, 12:30
I once got chastised for throwing a Pop Tart wrapper in the campfire from a hiker that drove an SUV 300 miles for the weekend trip.
Where did you read or learn that burning your trash in a fire is an acceptable practice in the backcountry? I take a lot of people backpacking and ask them to not burn their trash in the campfire. Some of them think I am being too rigorous. I explain that burning trash is not consistent wtih Leave No Trace guidelines, USFS policy, NPS policy etc. I ask them to provide a credible source that says it is ok to burn trash. Nobody has ever supplied one.
Doc Mike
11-18-2011, 12:52
Where did you read or learn that burning your trash in a fire is an acceptable practice in the backcountry? I take a lot of people backpacking and ask them to not burn their trash in the campfire. Some of them think I am being too rigorous. I explain that burning trash is not consistent wtih Leave No Trace guidelines, USFS policy, NPS policy etc. I ask them to provide a credible source that says it is ok to burn trash. Nobody has ever supplied one.
Can you show me a credible source that says it harms the evironment to burn a single pop-tart wrapper? I thought not. Personally will continue to burn all of my trash. At home, in the woods, whereever. It is such an insignificant amount compared to everything else. As above some of the people and probably yourself do way of questionable significance in there daily life than burning a pop-tart wrapper. For example leaving your computer running, using a refrigerator, getting your haircut with clippers versus scissors, all of these use electricity which comes from coal (mostly). Why don't we all get real.
Let me paraphrase a quote for you. Before you worry about the stick in my eye, remove the log from yours.
and of course HYOH, not HMHDI, YMMV
I don't burn anything in the backcountry. Collecting and burning downed wood destroys the environment and the local ecosystem. Is burning one pop-tart wrapper better or worse than burning every scrap of wood within a 100 yard radius? Probably not. Should anything be burned in a non-emergency situation? Probably not.
Pedaling Fool
11-18-2011, 13:17
Hey chinmusic, what if everyone burned their poptart wrapper in the fire:) That's what you usually hear, much like a talking parrot, from the AT "police".
But this is the problem with that "what if..." argument.
The average passenger car emits the following in a year:
77 lbs of hydrocarbons
575 lbs of carbon monoxide
11,450 lbs of CO2
38 lbs of nitrogen oxides
Now what if everyone drove a car:mad:
:D
ChinMusic
11-18-2011, 13:20
Where did you read or learn that burning your trash in a fire is an acceptable practice in the backcountry? I take a lot of people backpacking and ask them to not burn their trash in the campfire. Some of them think I am being too rigorous. I explain that burning trash is not consistent wtih Leave No Trace guidelines, USFS policy, NPS policy etc. I ask them to provide a credible source that says it is ok to burn trash. Nobody has ever supplied one.
Then I politely will not burn it........in front of you. I find your rigid position totally anal but I would not want you to have a heart attack witnessing me destroying the earth.
http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/15891-cheech_chong.jpg
Just burn one...sheesh..
Where do I get the hemp espadrilles?
Slo-go'en
11-18-2011, 14:50
Burning paper products is one thing, but pop tart wrapers are aluminized plastic and therefore NOT a good thing to burn. But if your too lazy to carry a few pop tart wrappers out of the woods ...
ChinMusic
11-18-2011, 14:58
Burning paper products is one thing, but pop tart wrapers are aluminized plastic and therefore NOT a good thing to burn. But if your too lazy to carry a few pop tart wrappers out of the woods ...
......I'm an evil person
ALLEGHENY
11-18-2011, 15:01
Like the gram wienies say, everything adds up.
Where do I get the hemp espadrilles?
You may have to make them but as I recall you have some expertise in that area.
Captain Blue
11-18-2011, 15:22
It is not hard to find credible information, if you look, for reasons why you should not burn trash. Here is one source:
http://www.epa.gov/oaqps001/community/details/barrelburn_addl_info.html
Times change. People don't.
hikerboy57
11-18-2011, 15:25
Where do I get the hemp espadrilles?I would make them for you , but i stock the wrong kind of hemp. try these:http://www.zappos.com/espadrille-shoes-espadrilles~9?gclid=CN2i6bv0wKwCFU1x5Qodkgggsw#!/men-shoes/CK_XAToC7hLAAQLiAgMHARg.zso?ot=espadrilles&s=recentSales/desc/
hikerboy57
11-18-2011, 15:27
I would make them for you , but i stock the wrong kind of hemp. try these:http://www.zappos.com/espadrille-shoes-espadrilles~9?gclid=CN2i6bv0wKwCFU1x5Qodkgggsw#!/men-shoes/CK_XAToC7hLAAQLiAgMHARg.zso?ot=espadrilles&s=recentSales/desc/wrong . try these:http://www.nextag.com/hemp-shoe/stores-html?nxtg=e700a280519-850FD9B15676907D
Sarcasm the elf
11-18-2011, 15:50
It is not hard to find credible information, if you look, for reasons why you should not burn trash. Here is one source:
http://www.epa.gov/oaqps001/community/details/barrelburn_addl_info.html
Times change. People don't.
Thanks for the link, I found this part particularly interesting:
Dioxins are released when items containing even trace amounts of chlorine are burned. One burn barrel [backyard trash burning] can produce as much or more than a full-scale municipal waste combustor burning 200 tons a day (EPA).
Back when I was in scouts we strictly enforced the no trash in the fire rule. This was in part due to environmental reasons, but it had just as much to do with kids burning themselves by accident and the many instances where we got to watch a flaming plastic bag get picked up by the wind and carried into the trees or blown into the campsite.
I still don't burn trash when camping, but I'm jaded enough not to make a problem out of it if other people choose to burn theirs. The one thing I would ask of the people who choose to burn their trash is to make sure their garbage is completely burned or packet out, please don't just leave half burned garbage in the firepits for others to deal with.
Doc Mike
11-18-2011, 18:56
It is not hard to find credible information, if you look, for reasons why you should not burn trash. Here is one source:
http://www.epa.gov/oaqps001/community/details/barrelburn_addl_info.html
Times change. People don't.
All that and not even one bit of evidence that the environment was actually harmed in any way. This "Could" happen, that could happen, no mention of odds of that happening. I could get struck by lightning tonight after dark.
Not one comparison with what happens in the "natural world" . Anybody remember the volcano that erupted recently, it spewed more ash and gases in the air than we as a people on this planet will in the next 100 years. Put things in perspective. Not one comparison to all the wild fires that occur each and every year. Not one comparison to the hazards of chernoble or the nuclear plant in japan.
HYOH and let me HMOH
Wise Old Owl
11-18-2011, 19:02
leather????
Yea these in leather....proper hiking attire
14404
Wise Old Owl
11-18-2011, 19:18
......I'm an evil person I don't think so....
Burning trash in the woods around the campfire goes back a long time - back when folks ate out of cans while hiking the trail - it was almost custom to get rid of the uneaten food and particals that would attract animals - and the can piles piled up at the shelters... Now we pack it out.... And if I can I too would burn up my food trash before moving the debris back into the tough sack to avoid the smell - yea -its metalized paper and who cares.
Chinmusic - you ususally stand up for yourself... what happened?
This threa made more pollution from burning fossil fuel then that pop tart wrapper.
MuddyWaters
11-18-2011, 20:22
There is no such thing as a "green" product.
Everything requires natural resources to produce. If you dont believe it, try making something without it. It also all ends up burnt, making CO2 and NOx or clogging up/poisioning a landfill eventually.
Yes, some resources are renewable. That doesnt make them "green", in many cases a great deal of petrochemical raw materials and coal based energy was used to grow and process that "green" raw material. Its a total farce, a marketing gimmick.
For instance, my employer has even jumped on the bandwagon with "green" product lines of additives. We are a "green company" if you believe the marketing. We want the reputation of being environmentally aware, etc. so we actively reduce the amount of our waste that get landfilled. (tiny tiny fraction of overall production) Sounds great to the non-thinking masses. After listening to a corporate presentation on this, I just had to point out that the ultimate destination of all of our product additives is......a landfill. The items they go into have a definite service life, whether it be wire and cables, computers, clothing, paper, it doesnt matter. EVERYTHING ends up in the landfill eventually. But because we reduced it by .001%, we are now Green.
They didnt quite know how to respond to that.
I completely disagree with Muddy Waters - there are volumes of research to prove you are wrong and that we can live sustainably, reduce use of unnecessary products, re-use products as best as we can, repair things vs replacing them - everything doesn't necessarily end up in a landfill - I compost all of my food scraps at home and turn it into the garden to grow more vegetables - this is just one example of something that won't be in a landfill -- you have a completely defeatist attitude. FYI, I don't burn my trash - regardless if whether or not a pop tart wrapper hurts anything or not, it looks like hell half burned in the fire ring and I'm strong enough to carry it and all my trash and still do (a whole hell of a lot) more miles than most.
Wise Old Owl
11-18-2011, 22:14
Muddy Waters - when people don't respond - it's because you said something to say "I am not on board" Next time say Great Idea! - lets all get in line and drink the cool aid..... Watch people light up around you....
DETAILED EXPLAINATION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid#Alternative_meaning)
ChinMusic
11-18-2011, 22:36
Chinmusic - you ususally stand up for yourself... what happened?I guess I should have used blue font
atmilkman
11-18-2011, 23:34
I guess I should have used blue font
Don't use blue font. Use Soylent Green. You could contribute to going green by packing it unwrapped just like in the movie, and talk about protien.
ChinMusic
11-19-2011, 00:12
Don't use blue font. Use Soylent Green. You could contribute to going green by packing it unwrapped just like in the movie, and talk about protien.
14406..............................
atmilkman
11-19-2011, 00:19
14406..............................
http://www.zazzle.com/soylent_green_tshirt-235491224065227500
It would be interesting to determine what a sustainable world population would be if everyone on the planet hiked 2000 miles per year, through diverse natural habitat spread around the globe. So you would need to figure out how to distribute people around the planet, and how they would run a sustainable economy, with sustainable access to sutainable trails through habitat which was reasonable diverse, natural, and adabtable. The catch22, is that I don't think its possible to convince or compell a global human population to be sustainable, or even to appreciate and enjoy nature. Ironically, it goes against our nature. It's a catch22.
ChinMusic
11-19-2011, 01:34
It would be interesting to determine what a sustainable world population would be if everyone on the planet hiked 2000 miles per year, through diverse natural habitat spread around the globe. So you would need to figure out how to distribute people around the planet, and how they would run a sustainable economy, with sustainable access to sutainable trails through habitat which was reasonable diverse, natural, and adabtable. The catch22, is that I don't think its possible to convince or compell a global human population to be sustainable, or even to appreciate and enjoy nature. Ironically, it goes against our nature. It's a catch22.
Who would make the Pop Tarts?
When you aren't hiking, you would be making the pop tarts for those that are. lol
Wise Old Owl
11-19-2011, 02:40
Ugh Pop Tarts - thought that was a euphanism for English Spice girls - Whatever happened to toaster strudel?
here have a green cow....
14407
fungi601
11-19-2011, 07:58
"Take nothing but pictures,leave nothing but carbon footprints."
what a bunch of crap! what do you think your doing using your computer and i bet you even have a light on in the house or wherever your computer is.. Oh lets don't forget all the footprints that went into making that computer your using.. I bet you even had a stack of DVD's laying nearby too.
what a bunch of crap! what do you think your doing using your computer and i bet you even have a light on in the house or wherever your computer is.. Oh lets don't forget all the footprints that went into making that computer your using.. I bet you even had a stack of DVD's laying nearby too.
It's not crap it's called "subtle humor"!
hikerboy57
11-19-2011, 08:22
what a bunch of crap! what do you think your doing using your computer and i bet you even have a light on in the house or wherever your computer is.. Oh lets don't forget all the footprints that went into making that computer your using.. I bet you even had a stack of DVD's laying nearby too.the whole point of my OP was to cast some light on what is truly green. I sell cars too. I dont deny for a minute that we leave an impact on the earth, no matter how "green" we choose to live. Our shoes are made of petrochemicals as well as our packs and tents.do you think a hybrid car is more green than a conventional combustion engine? Its not.every choice is a trade off of natural resources that can be oput to different uses. Its a complicated question, and I assume that you are also "on the grid", unless your hooked up to solar power, wind power, etc.
Now, back to our show.
fungi601
11-19-2011, 09:00
It's not crap it's called "subtle humor"!
Ahhh I stand corrected then.
MuddyWaters
11-19-2011, 16:45
The problem is that the human race FAR exceeds the ability of the environment to sustain it today. This will only get worse until we have 1) significantly less people, or 2) significantly less "stuff".
I dont see anyone giving up any of their "stuff", so things will get worse until we are forced to have less people. Thats what happens when species exceed carrying capacity of habitat, they have mass die offs with sickness and disease. We hunt overpopulated deer herds to prevent that from happening where the habitat is limited.
Look around you, what do you actually need? Food, a few clothes, water, some shelter. Thats it. Your whole life is spent accumulating "stuff" that is unnecessary and destroying the earths environment in the process. Including house, cars, furnishings, etc. But some will put on hemp sandals and feel good that you are doing something good for the enviroment.