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Bowlegs
11-18-2011, 19:20
I plan on taking in plenty of protein thru hiking 2012, though I noticed some people, from their blogs, gradually lacked in energy. Could it be a protein issue? Some were vegans. Any thoughts?

Jim Adams
11-18-2011, 19:23
tuna, chicken, ham in foil pouches and hard boiled eggs.

geek

kayak karl
11-18-2011, 19:27
not a problem. just eat 5-6K calories a day and you'll be good.

Pedaling Fool
11-18-2011, 19:51
Protein is important, but also very important, especially with respect to "energy" are foods packed with carbs, such as rice, potatoes and other types of those "evil" starchy foods. Too much protein and not enough carbs will leave you empty; that's why the Atkins diet is just another BS fad diet and does not work for athletes - AKA, people that walk every day for ~ 1/2 a year.

Pedaling Fool
11-18-2011, 19:54
Some were vegans. Any thoughts?I think it's more a thing about eating a lot of junk food. I think vegans will be alright, thanks to our modern society, with out that support you better be eating some animal products.

sbhikes
11-18-2011, 20:46
I didn't eat much protein on the trail and I didn't lack energy at all. I found it odd I could eat so horribly and hike so well. I usually carried one protein-rich meal for an entire 4 day section on the PCT and generally saved it for after either a particularly difficult day or the last night before resupply. Usually a packet of tuna or a chicken breast. I probably should have eaten more protein, but like I said, I was able to hike really well on a horrible diet for some strange reason, and protein was heavy so I kept on doing it that way.

Papa D
11-18-2011, 21:12
I eat Primal Strips (made of Seitan) www.primalspiritfoods.com
they are vegetarian, taste great, are chocked full of protein, are light and go with mac and cheese like champs!
Hard boiled eggs from my local chicken friends are also the bomb for day hikes.

leaftye
11-18-2011, 21:44
not a problem. just eat 5-6K calories a day and you'll be good.

Exactly. If you eat enough calories (^^that much), you'll get tons of protein even if you try not to.

DapperD
11-18-2011, 22:23
Protein is important, but also very important, especially with respect to "energy" are foods packed with carbs, such as rice, potatoes and other types of those "evil" starchy foods. Too much protein and not enough carbs will leave you empty; that's why the Atkins diet is just another BS fad diet and does not work for athletes - AKA, people that walk every day for ~ 1/2 a year.This is really good advice. I think eating enough protein though is important. Datto, who thru-hiked and gives tips in the Articles section here on Whiteblaze, states that he wishes he would have included a good protein powder in his diet, as he suffered the effects of weight loss during the trip:http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?8136-Datto-s-AT-Thru-Hiking-Tips&p=95200 Also besides what John Gault advises, I think enough fats included also are very important. This will help provide energy along with the complex carbs, and will help keep your body healthy. I think the hikers that go out, and basically maybe don't make an effort to eat right, and good quality foods, are the ones that either wind up going energy bankrupt, or end up losing too much muscle mass. Also in addition to eating good, rest is also vitally important. If you feel you are in need of it, and feel you are running out of energy, then by all means take it. Resting for a day or two or even more can wind up being extremely important in preventing burnout, sickness, and possibly even preventing a hike ending injury. Those extra rest days will wind up working in the hikers favor, so take them when needed. And those attempting to thru-hike, you need enough funds to be able to eat right. If you are not having quality food maildropped during the hike, then make sure you have enough funds set aside for the hike so you can resupply with plenty of good food for the journey. If you go out there with the plan to rely on a steady diet of candy bars, soda, baked goods, etc...and whatever you can scrounge from hiker boxes and handouts, then your diet will suffer, and so will your chances of success.

Wise Old Owl
11-18-2011, 22:41
Dapper - perhaps you misspoke - Atkins is for loosing weight without much exercise...actually embraced by some professional weight loss programs for the first several weeks of weight loss. It has little to do with athletes or is a fad. The part about fats in the above post is right on target and I am on board with the rest of what you wrote.

LDog
11-18-2011, 23:20
Over on FB there is a gent who's exploring pemmican. If, like me, you ain't hip to this traditional Native American foodstuff, it is basically a mixture of dried lean meat, and rendered fat. Properly done, it lasts nearly forever without refrigeration. Lean, raw meat is cut very thin, dried thoroughly and pulverized (or food processed) nearly into a powder. Fat is rendered into tallow. And the two are mixed approx 50-50. Sometimes, dried berries are added. The practitioners call it a superfood, and a nutritionally complete food... So forget your complex carbs, just dip into your baggy of pemmican for a big calorie, protein/fat bomb!

http://nutrition-and-physical-regeneration.com/blog/941/meat/the-bread-of-the-wilderness-pemmican/
http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf


(http://nutrition-and-physical-regeneration.com/blog/941/meat/the-bread-of-the-wilderness-pemmican/)

Feral Nature
11-18-2011, 23:34
not a problem. just eat 5-6K calories a day and you'll be good.

This is nonsense. Just because someone eats 5-6K calories a day does NOT guarantee that they are getting enough protein. The calories could be made up of all sugar with zero protein so your reasoning is flawed.

JAK
11-19-2011, 00:15
I think protien should be about 10% of your daily calorie burn.
So if you are burning 2000 kcal, that would be 50g.
If you are burning 6000 kcal, that would be 150g.

You can eaily get that as a vegan, or vegetarian, or whatever. Just eat real food. I think more likely is that hikers will get low on iron, calcium, vitamin A, and vitamin C. Those are the big 4 to worry about, whether you are vegan or not. Easlily fixed, by eating real food, including some herbs, like parsley. Don't go heavy on empty sugars and empty fats until you know you are getting enough protien, iron, calcium, A, and C.

1 oz of dried parsley will take care of most or all of your iron, calcium, A, and C.
Oats with breakfast and Lentils and Parsley soup with supper will easily take care of the protien.

leaftye
11-19-2011, 00:45
This is nonsense. Just because someone eats 5-6K calories a day does NOT guarantee that they are getting enough protein. The calories could be made up of all sugar with zero protein so your reasoning is flawed.

Nonsense? Please, no one eats straight sugar. Instead of making ridiculous unfounded statements, let's put some numbers into this argument.

Example 1
The limiting factors will be a diet consisting entirely of Snickers bars and water with a daily calorie intake of 5000-6000 calories.

A 2 oz Snickers bar has 271 calories, of which 4 grams are protein. 20 is a nice round number of bars to eat. That's 5420 calories and 80 grams of protein. That amount of protein lands in the middle of what people generally recommend for a very physically active person.

Example 2

Same limiting factors, but plain oatmeal from Costco is used instead. Only other thing consumed would be water.

An entire package has 15300 calories, so let's use 1/3rd of that. That's 5100 calories and 170 grams of protein.

Example 3

Same as above, except mashed potato flakes from Costco.

A #10 can only has 2160 calories, so let's use 2 1/2 cans for a total of 5400 calories and 300 grams of protein.

Example 4

3 Musketeers bar. Twenty of them would have 5140 calories and 40 grams of protein. It would be hard to find anything that provides less protein without going to something that's essentially pure sugar like Lemonheads or Skittles. It certainly isn't going to be a vegetable since eating celery would put you near 300 grams of protein and spinach would result in roughly 800 grams of protein.

JAK
11-19-2011, 01:13
Speaking of Atkins diet, there have been studies on extremely low carb diets on endurance athletes, and after a few weeks period of adjustment, they did very well. The traditional inuit diet, for example, does work for endurance athletes. So a wide range of fats vs carbs works, but the protien needs to be at least 10% of calories burned, and I wouldn't go higher than 30% there. So protien 10-30%, Carbs 10-60%, and Fats 10-60%, in my opinion. My specific recommendation for hiking is 10% protien, 30% carbs, 60% fat, as percentage of calories burned, and then to reduce the fat actually consumed by 1% of your body fat. So, for example, if burning 5000 kcal/day, and you have 50 pounds of body fat, then your daily diet should be about 125g protien, 375g carbs, and 333g fats, but then you can chose to reduce the fat consumed by up to 1% of 50 pounds = ~200g, so 133g fat in the diet. This skews the dietary percentages in this case to roughly 16% protien, 48% carbs, 36% fat, which is pretty reasonable.

garlic08
11-19-2011, 10:36
Well done, Leaftye. I've also always heard that if you get enough calories in any reasonable trail diet (including Snickers bars--yes, you, Mags), you'll get enough protein. And as for the Atkins diet, I also used to think it was a fad until someone very close to me, also a very active thru hiker and athlete, was diagnosed as a Type I diabetic. She is doing very well and staying very strong and active with a very low carb diet.

Protein from meat is way over-rated, I think. I haven't eaten meat in decades, and that includes a career as a firefighter and three thru hikes. When people ask, and they always do, how I get my protein, I respond, "How do horses, elephants, or rhinos get protein? They're large, strong animals and they don't eat meat." It's not a perfect analogy, but it does illustrate that protein exists in food other than meat.

When advice-givers start quoting USDA recommendations, and they always do, I reflect on how well the USDA has done in setting dietary guidelines in my lifetime. When I was a child, there was one diabetic in my school....

Pedaling Fool
11-19-2011, 11:18
I'm going to backtrack a little, if I may:D, from what I've said about nutritional needs. As for the Atkins diet I'm a little jaded, only because of the BS infomercials I've seen, but putting that aside, maybe there is some truth behind some of the principles.

But I'm backtracking, because this thread I started, during which time I remember reading of the diet of the Tarahumara Indians; I would never of guessed that one could exhibit the endurance of those people on the diet they eat. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?62075-Tarahumara-Simply-incredible!!!&p=1109241#post1109241

So maybe we should give the body another look in the light of what others have accomplished. Perhaps the body is much more adaptable than what we know. After all, look at how important milk is to many of us. However, we had to acclimate ourselve to drink it and there are peoples around the world who can't process the stuff because they've never been exposed. http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/june/lactose.htm But then you got the Maasai people of East Africa with this diet:

"Traditionally, the Maasai diet consisted of meat, milk, and blood from cattle. An ILCA study (Nestel 1989) states: “Today, the staple diet of the Maasai consists of cow's milk and maize-meal. The former is largely drunk fresh or in sweet tea and the latter is used to make a liquid or solid porridge. The solid porridge is known as ugali and is eaten with milk; unlike the liquid porridge, ugali is not prepared with milk. Meat, although an important food, is consumed irregularly and cannot be classified as a staple food. Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans. Butter is also an important infant food. Blood is rarely drunk."

Sometimes I really have to remind myself to keep an open mind. So I'm going to plea extreme ignorance in this subject.

Mike2012
11-19-2011, 13:09
Nonsense? Please, no one eats straight sugar. Instead of making ridiculous unfounded statements, let's put some numbers into this argument.

Example 1
The limiting factors will be a diet consisting entirely of Snickers bars and water with a daily calorie intake of 5000-6000 calories.

A 2 oz Snickers bar has 271 calories, of which 4 grams are protein. 20 is a nice round number of bars to eat. That's 5420 calories and 80 grams of protein. That amount of protein lands in the middle of what people generally recommend for a very physically active person.
........

..........

Example 4

3 Musketeers bar. Twenty of them would have 5140 calories and 40 grams of protein. It would be hard to find anything that provides less protein without going to something that's essentially pure sugar like Lemonheads or Skittles. It certainly isn't going to be a vegetable since eating celery would put you near 300 grams of protein and spinach would result in roughly 800 grams of protein.


Speaking of ridiculous. I doubt anyone could eat 20 Snickers bars a day and not have adverse effects. This is about hiking for months on end, not a state fair competitive food eating competition. Plus at .99 cents a bar that's $19.80 a day on 2.6 pounds of food.

royalusa
11-19-2011, 13:35
Here's a good set of articles on food nutrition for a long distant hike:

http://www.thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php

What most of us don't realize is that our focus should be more on fat and less on protein (at least per the author of the articles mentioned above, who is a nutritionist and avid long distance hiker, Ph.D., and R.D.). I believe she recommends a 55:30:15 or 45:40:15 ratio for carb/fat/protein.

But like everything, it’s HYOH .

weary
11-19-2011, 14:23
Many exaggerate the need for a lot of protein. You can meet the real needs without a great deal of thought. On long backpacking trips, I carry powdered milk and add it to most of my meals. It goes into my coffee and cereal every morning, and most soups and whatever concoctions I cook for supper. Other easily carried and relatively light weight protein sources are peanuts, dried pea soups, cheese, eggs, summer sausage, Snickers ....

Malto
11-19-2011, 15:21
Speaking of ridiculous. I doubt anyone could eat 20 Snickers bars a day and not have adverse effects. This is about hiking for months on end, not a state fair competitive food eating competition. Plus at .99 cents a bar that's $19.80 a day on 2.6 pounds of food.

There were many days that I ate up to 6000 cal of pure junk and Maltodextrin plus another 2000 cal of other stuff.

The best advice I saw and adopted was "Carbs for hiking, protein for recovery!" That doesn't mean zero protein during the day because as others said there is some protein in most foods. As for why hikers are bonking? I hiked with a couple of hikers on my thruhike that were likely as strong or stronger hikers than I was. But they failed to meter enough calories into them during the day and they bonked often in the mid afternoon. I target about 280 calories per hour, mostly pure junk food and maltodextrin. At the day's end I will eat more nuts and other protein sources as well as a healthy shot of carbs for recovery. I only had one day that I bonked and that was a 40+ mile day with rationed food heading into a resupply.

Finally, don't overthink it. Take enough foods that you can actually eat and meter them in all day long.

leaftye
11-19-2011, 15:52
Speaking of ridiculous. I doubt anyone could eat 20 Snickers bars a day and not have adverse effects. This is about hiking for months on end, not a state fair competitive food eating competition. Plus at .99 cents a bar that's $19.80 a day on 2.6 pounds of food.

Of course. Those are just examples. 1, 3 & 4 would be a great recipe for getting diabetes because of the very high glycemic index of those foods. You should look up some of my other posts about my particular low glycemic / high calorie trail diet. That said, I'm about to start using either candy bars or peanut M&M's as my foul weather trail diet...M&M's would be packaged into smaller bags of known calories to down quickly like a shot of whiskey. Sometimes the need to get calories to avoid the very high short term risk of hypothermia is more important than the long term risk of getting diabetes.

You comparison about an eating competition is pretty much spot on. It's tough to eat that much and it can feel like an eating competition.

hobby
11-19-2011, 16:04
"there is a gent who's exploring pemmican....."

We had pemmican bars at Philmont years ago. It was said that pemmican "looked and tasted the same going in, as it did coming out!"

garlic08
11-19-2011, 19:17
On my AT thru, there were a couple of days I lost energy at the end of the day. On those days I ate extra fat and protein, like if I packed too much cheese or peanut butter. That would leave me feeling full and I wouldn't eat enough carbs for energy. That may not have been the whole reason, but it happened twice and that's what it felt like to me.

Echraide
11-19-2011, 19:25
I combine whey or soy protein powder with Carnation Instant Breakfast and powdered milk, and just add water. I mix them ahead of time and send them to myself in my mail drops.

Feral Nature
11-19-2011, 19:27
FWIW I lost 70 lbs on Atkins. Towards the end, I was looking pretty haggard. The diet does indeed work, and fast.

Papa D
11-19-2011, 21:17
+1 to Carnation instant breakfast
+1 to powdered milk (with granola and dried fruit) - just pre-mix a few zip locks, add water, shake, eat

swjohnsey
11-22-2011, 12:12
If you ate only Snickers you would almost get enough protein.

JAK
11-23-2011, 10:42
I think these are good, and fairly easy to remember guidelines...

For every 1000 kcal burned yesterday:
Protien: 25g
Carbs: 75g less 1g for every 2 pounds of body fat.
Fats: 75g less 1g for every 2 pounds of body fat.

So, for example, if you have 50 pounds of body fat and burned 3000 kcal yesterday...
Protien: 25g x 3 = 75g.
Carbs: (75g - 50/2) x 3 = 150g.
Fats: (75g - 50/2) x 3 = 150g.

Diet percentages, in this case, work out to be 13%, 27%, 60%, in this case, for 2250 kcal.
Weight loss would be 750kcal or about 0.21 pounds per day.

q-tip
11-23-2011, 12:52
Textured Vegitable Protein, 3.5 oz includes 48 grams of protein. Best weight to protein ratio I have found.

rgarling
11-23-2011, 13:12
JAK
Try to change the way you think about protein consumption. The amount of protein you need depends on your lean body mass and your activity level, rather than the number of calories you consume. In other words, if you are inactive, 1/2 gram per pound of lean body mass is sufficient. If you are very active, 1 gram per pound of lean body mass is sufficient; however, the body can deal with an overage without difficulty. People have 'over eaten' protein to the level of 5 or 6 grams per pound of lean body mass without difficulty.

Sarcasm the elf
11-23-2011, 14:08
After reading this thread, I fell that Mags may need to add a trail food section to his HMHDI web page.

JAK
11-23-2011, 15:57
JAK
Try to change the way you think about protein consumption. The amount of protein you need depends on your lean body mass and your activity level, rather than the number of calories you consume. In other words, if you are inactive, 1/2 gram per pound of lean body mass is sufficient. If you are very active, 1 gram per pound of lean body mass is sufficient; however, the body can deal with an overage without difficulty. People have 'over eaten' protein to the level of 5 or 6 grams per pound of lean body mass without difficulty.Thanks. Maybe I could pump up my protien a bit. My lean mass is about 150 pounds, so that would indicate 150g, when active, and 75g when inactive. I will assume 4000 kcal per day when active and 2000 kcal per day when inactive, so I think I can still tie it in with calories burned but again I will base it on the previous days activity.

So now I think I will try the following...

For every 1000 kcal burned yesterday:
Protien: 40g
Carbs: 65g less 1g for every 2 pounds of body fat.
Fats: 65g less 1g for every 2 pounds of body fat.

So, for example, if you have 50 pounds of body fat and burned 3000 kcal yesterday...
Protien: 40g x 3 = 120g.
Carbs: (65g - 50/2) x 3 = 120g.
Fats: (65g - 50/2) x 3 = 120g.

Diet percentages, in this case, work out to be roughly 24%, 24%, 52% for 2040 kcal.
Weight loss would be 960 kcal/day or about 2 pounds per week.

hikingshoes
11-23-2011, 17:47
+1 to Carnation instant breakfast
+1 to powdered milk (with granola and dried fruit) - just pre-mix a few zip locks, add water, shake, eat
I'll second that on the Carnation instant breakfast but i add NEO powdered milk(thanks EL Flaco).

Tinker
11-23-2011, 18:01
"there is a gent who's exploring pemmican....."

We had pemmican bars at Philmont years ago. It was said that pemmican "looked and tasted the same going in, as it did coming out!"

UH..................................who, exactly, was in charge of the tasting coming out...............:eek:

Pedaling Fool
11-30-2011, 10:00
Some interesting info concerning vegetarian diet and protien http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/nutrition-weight-loss/veg-out?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-739268-_-11292011-_-veg_out

Pedaling Fool
12-03-2011, 17:32
More protein stuff... http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/nutrition-weight-loss/power-protein?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-745010-_-12012011-_-power_of_protein

TWTP
12-30-2011, 15:34
Why not use whey protein supplementation added to a portion of your water? It's extremely lightweight, efficient, can be stored for months in a dropbox, and comes in a variety of flavors to mask whatever purification method you're using. They also sell "gainer" mixes which contain malodextrin and fat sources. Bodybuilding.com is a good resource for this stuff.

The thru-hikers I've met while hiking parts of the AT all used whey protein in their water.

leaftye
12-30-2011, 17:33
Why not use whey protein supplementation added to a portion of your water? It's extremely lightweight, efficient, can be stored for months in a dropbox, and comes in a variety of flavors to mask whatever purification method you're using. They also sell "gainer" mixes which contain malodextrin and fat sources. Bodybuilding.com is a good resource for this stuff.

The thru-hikers I've met while hiking parts of the AT all used whey protein in their water.

Two reasons:
1. There's no need to supplement with protein while on the trail if you're eating enough calories.
2. Maltodextrin is a terrible thing to eat in the large quantities that a thru hiker is likely to consume.

brian039
12-30-2011, 18:07
Protein, while important, shouldn't be your main concern. Hiking being a low-intensity aerobic exercise will cause your body to metabolize fat as its main fuel source. So a focus on getting plenty of high-quality fats into your diet should be a main concern. Peanut butter and olive oil are 2 examples of easily obtained high-quality fat products that you can carry in your food bag.

q-tip
12-30-2011, 22:18
I use TVP-Textured Vegtable Protein--3.5 oz =48 grams of protein. one pound lasts 6 days approx.

Papa D
12-30-2011, 22:22
I use TVP-Textured Vegtable Protein--3.5 oz =48 grams of protein. one pound lasts 6 days approx.

+1 to this - I also eat a bunch of Seitan Bars - brand name Primal Strips - they are vegetarian jerky (very good) and fantastic foods re-fried bean mix with instant rice and ((pirated) taco bell sauce) -- if you are coming out of a town for re-supply and have fuel (or hostel with a stove) hard boiled eggs are heavy but can be consumed on the first day out - also, almond butter, soy wonder, (and, of course) peanut butter are good protein sources.

Odd Man Out
12-30-2011, 23:29
I agree that protein doesn't need to be a primary concern. I am guessing that the concern comes from loss of muscle mass some may experience during a long distance hike. But this probably happens due to a lack of energy so the best solution is to get more energy in the diet and this is most effectively done with more carbs and fats. As has been pointed out it is hard to eat a diet that is really protein deficient, unless you are just eating plain sugar and vegetable oil. Whole grains, nuts, cheese, meat, eggs, dairy (in one form or another) are rich in protein, readily available, and pretty common in most hikers' diets.

Here are a few basics to keep in mind. There are three kinds of macronutrients: carbohydrates, fats, proteins. These are the molecules you use for catabolism (break down to give you energy) and anabolism (put together to make your body).

Fats by far have the most energy available per gram, but they can only be used for catabolism. Therefore you can't live on just fat, but if you need a lot of energy (such as doing a 2000 mile hike), this is the best way to get energy in a lightweight, non perishable package. Carbs and proteins can be catabolized to make energy (but less energy per gram than fats). However, they can also be used for anabolism. So you must have at least one of these. Carbs have an advantage in that your body must also have a supply of sugar (when your blood sugar level drops, your brain shuts off).

If you are not eating enough carbs, you must use protein to make carbs (since your can't make carbs from fats). This is fairly inefficient as it takes energy to turn the protein into carbs plus you must also remove the nitrogen atoms from the protein and eliminate the nitrogen waste as urea. This is the basis for weight loss in an Atkins diet. It still works if you provide enough energy from fat, which is the basis of the pemmican.

However, if you don't provide enough energy in the form of fat or sugar from carbs, you suffer from Rabbit Starvation (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation). This is because there is a limit to the rate at which your body can process the nitrogen waste. So if you try to live on protein only, you starve to death (no matter how much you eat) since you can't catabolize protein fast enough to provide all your energy needs, plus the extra energy needed to turn the protein into sugar. So the advice for long distance hikers to eat a balanced diet (fats, carbs, and protein), with more emphasis on fats and less on protein makes good sense based on the basics of metabolism described above. The fats provide the energy you need, the carbs keep your blood sugar normal without having to make it from protein.

So what do you need the protein for? Remember that proteins are made from 20 amino acids. Half are essential (you must get from your diet) and half are not essential (you can make yourself from the other food you eat). Proteins are used for lots of things in your body (hair, skin, tendons, bone, enzymes, etc.) In addition, the most important thing that proteins have that carbs and fats don't is that nitrogen atom. These are needed for several other important molecules, such as nucleic acids (DNA/RNA), neurotransmitters, and heme (as in hemoglobin).

However, it is important to understand that your metabolism functions on a condition knows as steady state, where most molecules are recycled and reused. So when a protein in your body is broken down, you don't need protein in your diet to replace it. It is broken down into individual amino acids and most can be reused to make new protein. To keep the whole thing going you need energy which comes from catabolism: food and oxygen make carbon dioxide and water. You only need other nutrients to replace the stuff that is not recycled and eliminated as waste. If you think about it, you body right now is not significantly different than it was 24 hours ago because of this steady state.

So in a balanced diet, you do not need protein for catabolism or making carbs, and most of your amino acids are recycled, so the amount of protein you need in the diet is minimal. To keep at steady state, you would only need to eat enough protein to replace the nitrogen atoms lost in your urine and feces. And if you are producing urea, it is because you have eaten excess protein that you don't need, so you catabolize the protein for energy and eliminate the excess nitrogen as waste.

But the recycling isn't 100% efficient, so there will always be some protein needed to replace nitrogen waste. As it turns out, your body isn't particularly good at recycling heme waste, which mostly comes from red blood cells. The yellow pigment in urine and the brown color of feces are produced from waste heme (mostly from hemoglobin in red blood cells). Each of these molecules has four nitrogen atoms, so that's a fairly constant nitrogen loss that must be replaced by protein in the diet.

One final observation: Jesus said that "man does not live by bread alone". His choice of words reflects an interesting understanding of biochemistry. To say "man does not live by protein alone" or "man does not live by olive oil alone" would simply be biochemically accurate statements and thus have no spiritual significance. But of course he was teaching that people also need spiritual nourishment and this point is made because bread is one food you CAN live on (physically), especially bread from 2000 years ago that would have been made from whole grain and yeast (giving a balance of carbs, protein, fat, and vitamins).

leaftye
12-31-2011, 01:01
I agree that protein doesn't need to be a primary concern. I am guessing that the concern comes from loss of muscle mass some may experience during a long distance hike.

Creatine has been shown in studies to great reduce muscle wasting. I bet it would minimize muscle loss while long distance hiking too. I'm not going to try it though. Hiking is expensive enough, and eating enough is already very challenging without adding creatine to my diet. Even if I were willing to try it, I'd get the rest of my diet nailed down near perfectly. As is, I'm already deficient by a couple thousand calories a day on full hiking days, and that's with eating 4500 calories a day.

RORY CALHOUN
01-01-2012, 16:50
Well done, Leaftye. I've also always heard that if you get enough calories in any reasonable trail diet (including Snickers bars--yes, you, Mags), you'll get enough protein. And as for the Atkins diet, I also used to think it was a fad until someone very close to me, also a very active thru hiker and athlete, was diagnosed as a Type I diabetic. She is doing very well and staying very strong and active with a very low carb diet.

Protein from meat is way over-rated, I think. I haven't eaten meat in decades, and that includes a career as a firefighter and three thru hikes. When people ask, and they always do, how I get my protein, I respond, "How do horses, elephants, or rhinos get protein? They're large, strong animals and they don't eat meat." It's not a perfect analogy, but it does illustrate that protein exists in food other than meat.

When advice-givers start quoting USDA recommendations, and they always do, I reflect on how well the USDA has done in setting dietary guidelines in my lifetime. When I was a child, there was one diabetic in my school....

well supersize me! he ate McDonalds for 30 days and became an Indie Movie Sensation, haha, anyways, liked your post, what are things you eat, as i prepare for a 3-15-12 launch and read blogs i see their is zero consensus on anything really, & that will be part of the joy, "pick your poison". just collecting opinions but yours cuisine may be substantial. Thanks.

RORY CALHOUN
01-01-2012, 16:59
Many exaggerate the need for a lot of protein. You can meet the real needs without a great deal of thought. On long backpacking trips, I carry powdered milk and add it to most of my meals. It goes into my coffee and cereal every morning, and most soups and whatever concoctions I cook for supper. Other easily carried and relatively light weight protein sources are peanuts, dried pea soups, cheese, eggs, summer sausage, Snickers ....

also liked your post, how about powdered eggs, isn't that a real food? i am thinking about a dessert sized baggie (pre-mixed and packed) with 1/3 cup dry oatmeal, about 7 almonds pecans and walnuts, protein powder, powdered milk and eggs and what else BOOM, walk eat go- that is a riff on Julia Roberts eat pray love, ok not a bery good riff, but hey, Tina Fey had to start someplace (as a sketch writer for Loren Michaels...Bossypants...haha

garlic08
01-01-2012, 21:08
well supersize me! he ate McDonalds for 30 days and became an Indie Movie Sensation, haha, anyways, liked your post, what are things you eat, as i prepare for a 3-15-12 launch and read blogs i see their is zero consensus on anything really, & that will be part of the joy, "pick your poison". just collecting opinions but yours cuisine may be substantial. Thanks.

I do OK on protein with a trail diet heavy in oats, tree nuts, cheese, and peanut butter. In towns I eat legumes, dark leafy greens, eggs, more cheese and dairy. I like Weary's powdered milk suggestion and buy it when I see it, but that's not always available and I do OK without it on the trail. I did not lose weight on my AT thru, so it worked for me. I keep telling myself I'll eat meat if I crave it, but that hasn't happened. I've heard some vegetarian ultra-athletes feel that craving and it sound like it's best for them to satisfy it.

I also just read "Bossypants" and enjoyed it. Don't quit your day job yet! Welcome to Whiteblaze, though.

Wise Old Owl
01-01-2012, 21:24
Protein is important, but also very important, especially with respect to "energy" are foods packed with carbs, such as rice, potatoes and other types of those "evil" starchy foods. Too much protein and not enough carbs will leave you empty; that's why the Atkins diet is just another BS fad diet and does not work for athletes - AKA, people that walk every day for ~ 1/2 a year.

John apparently you personally never needed to loose weight. Atkins IS NOT A FAD DIET.... miss information is a abound. Examples today would be the Mennonites and the Amish that have a High Protein and low Carb with large amount of greens. Locally the 2 million of them have less than 2 percent over BMI index. Most modern diets are based on examples of 200 years ago.... I don't remember anyone being fat in the Nasa 1969's tv as we landed on the moon.... Fast food is the culprit - sodium, carbs, french fries, rice etc. And more importantly Regulation on the food industry that manufactures food like Swanson. Some recently college educated Nutritionists are - worse than snake oil salesman.

Wise Old Owl
01-01-2012, 21:31
Not to contradict myself - weight loss and good diet is important - completing the trail requires a totally different take on nutrition to complete the trail - a small group of people here have adopted the junk food eatery as the way to go while hiking the AT...

There is an example of this - Personally hike some 20 miles in one day and then suck up some useless carbs of liquid bread. Yuengling Beer Lager after the hike. 2 16 oz beer is equal to one liquid dinner.. apparently this is priceless.


My point is there are things you need to loose weight and a different take is needed for any trail. l

And let me add John that if we both missed explained and we are on the same page, my apologies. I went back and reread the rest of the thread (again) and what you wrote.....

Papa D
01-01-2012, 21:47
also liked your post, how about powdered eggs, isn't that a real food? i am thinking about a dessert sized baggie (pre-mixed and packed) with 1/3 cup dry oatmeal, about 7 almonds pecans and walnuts, protein powder, powdered milk and eggs and what else BOOM, walk eat go- that is a riff on Julia Roberts eat pray love, ok not a bery good riff, but hey, Tina Fey had to start someplace (as a sketch writer for Loren Michaels...Bossypants...haha

I don't really like eating eggs that much but I have spent some time looking for good powdered eggs - mainly for my summer camp backpacking programs - when I thru-hiked, we used "Nifda" brand powdered eggs -- everything seems to have gone the way of mandatory refrigeration and extra packaging - eggs in jugs. I do carry powdered milk. Where do you get powdered eggs these days?

Wise Old Owl
01-01-2012, 21:52
Papa D - Powered eggs are best used in recipe's for the trail... Mixes in dried products or FBC. I would take a personal pass and Hard boil an egg and tape a salt packet to the side for breakfast other wise.... to answer your question - Mountain House.

Papa D
01-01-2012, 22:04
Papa D - Powered eggs are best used in recipe's for the trail... Mixes in dried products or FBC. I would take a personal pass and Hard boil an egg and tape a salt packet to the side for breakfast other wise.... to answer your question - Mountain House.

yeah - I know you can get the Mountain House omelets and such - -and I occasionally hard boil some eggs if I think about it but -- I'm talking regular old grocery store powdered eggs - hey, a google search revealed this:

www.amazon.com/Powdered-Whole-Eggs-2-25-Pound/dp/B0006ZN4XE

Wise Old Owl
01-01-2012, 22:14
Ok.......;)

LDog
01-01-2012, 23:27
I've read good reviews of Ova Easy
http://www.nutriom.com/

Pedaling Fool
01-02-2012, 09:15
I'm going to backtrack a little, if I may:D, from what I've said about nutritional needs. As for the Atkins diet I'm a little jaded, only because of the BS infomercials I've seen, but putting that aside, maybe there is some truth behind some of the principles.

But I'm backtracking, because this thread I started, during which time I remember reading of the diet of the Tarahumara Indians; I would never of guessed that one could exhibit the endurance of those people on the diet they eat. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?62075-Tarahumara-Simply-incredible!!!&p=1109241#post1109241

So maybe we should give the body another look in the light of what others have accomplished. Perhaps the body is much more adaptable than what we know. After all, look at how important milk is to many of us. However, we had to acclimate ourselve to drink it and there are peoples around the world who can't process the stuff because they've never been exposed. http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/june/lactose.htm But then you got the Maasai people of East Africa with this diet:

"Traditionally, the Maasai diet consisted of meat, milk, and blood from cattle. An ILCA study (Nestel 1989) states: “Today, the staple diet of the Maasai consists of cow's milk and maize-meal. The former is largely drunk fresh or in sweet tea and the latter is used to make a liquid or solid porridge. The solid porridge is known as ugali and is eaten with milk; unlike the liquid porridge, ugali is not prepared with milk. Meat, although an important food, is consumed irregularly and cannot be classified as a staple food. Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans. Butter is also an important infant food. Blood is rarely drunk."

Sometimes I really have to remind myself to keep an open mind. So I'm going to plea extreme ignorance in this subject.


John apparently you personally never needed to loose weight. Atkins IS NOT A FAD DIET.... miss information is a abound. Examples today would be the Mennonites and the Amish that have a High Protein and low Carb with large amount of greens. Locally the 2 million of them have less than 2 percent over BMI index. Most modern diets are based on examples of 200 years ago.... I don't remember anyone being fat in the Nasa 1969's tv as we landed on the moon.... Fast food is the culprit - sodium, carbs, french fries, rice etc. And more importantly Regulation on the food industry that manufactures food like Swanson. Some recently college educated Nutritionists are - worse than snake oil salesman.You didn't read my post on the same page as the one you quoted? (posted above).

But in general I still call BS on the Atkins Diet. And yes, I did have to lose weight before, that's why I hiked in 2006, for a complete body overhaul, because I was getting fat, very fat, but in my case it had less to do with the foods I was eating vs. just the amounts.

I still eat tons of potatoes, I even eat potato chips for breakfast (no kidding) to give me the energy I need since I ride a bike EVERYWHERE, EVERY DAY. And I run a lot and do a lot of weight training. I need carbs. And yes I keep the weight off. But as I hinted in the above post, I admit that my diet, although it works for me, can possibly be changed, radically, and not affect my lifestyle. That's why I tend to think diet is overrated, maybe the body can adapt to virtually any diet, given time.

I still think people are fat, not so much of because what they eat, but how much. And I don't exercise to keep the fat off; I eat less to keep the fat off, exercise is to keep my body strong, there's a difference.

Pedaling Fool
01-02-2012, 09:28
John apparently you personally never needed to loose weight. Atkins IS NOT A FAD DIET.... miss information is a abound. Examples today would be the Mennonites and the Amish that have a High Protein and low Carb with large amount of greens. Locally the 2 million of them have less than 2 percent over BMI index. Most modern diets are based on examples of 200 years ago.... I don't remember anyone being fat in the Nasa 1969's tv as we landed on the moon.... Fast food is the culprit - sodium, carbs, french fries, rice etc. And more importantly Regulation on the food industry that manufactures food like Swanson. Some recently college educated Nutritionists are - worse than snake oil salesman.


Not to contradict myself - weight loss and good diet is important - completing the trail requires a totally different take on nutrition to complete the trail - a small group of people here have adopted the junk food eatery as the way to go while hiking the AT...

There is an example of this - Personally hike some 20 miles in one day and then suck up some useless carbs of liquid bread. Yuengling Beer Lager after the hike. 2 16 oz beer is equal to one liquid dinner.. apparently this is priceless.


My point is there are things you need to loose weight and a different take is needed for any trail. l

And let me add John that if we both missed explained and we are on the same page, my apologies. I went back and reread the rest of the thread (again) and what you wrote.....And I just read this...BTW, don't apology to me, it's just the internet I don't take anything personal.

But...one other little pet p...we've become a society of "victims" and the more these "victims" have a place to cry, they'll continue to be stunted in their own pathetic world. Mc D's isn't to blame, it is the individual. Until we realize that there will be an endless line of lawsuits, regulations and stupid laws that remove blame from the individual.

lemon b
01-02-2012, 09:51
I use cheese, and black beans and white rice, lentals use up too much fuel.