3 Boyscouts separated from their troop

[10-K]

Nice to read a story that doesn't involve anybody doing anything un-smart.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/3-boy-scouts-survive-a-brisk-night-in-nc-mountains-camping-a-night-before-seeking-rescue/2011/11/20/gIQAqckOfN_story.html

[HiKen2011]

Glad there was a happy ending!

[hikerboy57]

story with a happy ending. I did chuckle where it says in the morning they set off in search of their rescuers.

[royalusa]

Sadly as this news article states a searcher was injured when an all-terrain vehicle rolled over on top of the rescue squad member. His condition wasn’t available late Sunday. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/11/19/2790597/crews-search-for-missing-boy-scouts.html#storylink=misearch#ixzz1eLce59XZ (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/11/19/2790597/crews-search-for-missing-boy-scouts.html#storylink=misearch#ixzz1eLce59XZ)


As far as the comment that no one doing anything “un-smart”, my past experiences with seeing boy scout troops on the trail leads me to believe perhaps otherwise. I’ve yet to see a reasonable safe sized group (IMO, of course) of boy scouts. I notice that Pisgah National Forest restricts the group size to 10 in some areas, such as the Shining Rock Wilderness area, but these hikers were in a different county of the same forest so it would not have applied to them. I do not know if there is a limit to hiking group size in the area they were hiking. But it gets me wondering if this rescue would have been necessary with a smaller group size. Yeah, I know, I just opened a huge can of worms…but it does get me to thinking about what size of group would be considered safe vs. unsafe, along with guidelines of sticking together too or waiting within hollering distance for nature calls (the issue that caused the 3 boys to get lost in the first place). Am I really the only one that thinks some groups we see out on the trails are just too large?


And I can’t believe no one has asked yet, who is paying for the helicopter rescue of the scouts and the rescue/medical for the injured squad member. I felt for sure that would have be the first question asked by WB’ers, based on past threads.

[Pedaling Fool]

Oh no, here we go again with the boyscout debate:D

P.S. I have no dog in that argument; I know nothing at all about the boyscouts, I just find it really curious that it gets some really spun up:)

[The Old Boot]

Several times a year we take groups of teens out for day excursions to do light trail maintenance and for educational hikes. Year round they wear orange vests...it makes them easier to spot if they step off the trail for any reason. The girls don't like being visible but them's the rules!!

It might be something that scout leaders should consider. It won't make it fool-proof but it's certainly an added safety item.

I have to question the leaders that weren't keeping a head count and allowed the kids to get out of shouting range in the first place.

[10-K]

When I said they didn't do anything "unsmart" I meant that when they realized they were separated they knew to stop, make a shelter, stay warm and eat something.

That's better than what most adults would do.

I agree that it should never have happened.

[Sailing_Faith]

....And I can’t believe no one has asked yet, who is paying for the helicopter rescue of the scouts and the rescue/medical for the injured squad member. I felt for sure that would have be the first question asked by WB’ers, based on past threads.

With respect to the 'non-political' nature of the board.... I think that with all the frivolous expenditures that are made by the government, finding lost Boy scouts is a pretty reasonable expenditure of tax dollars.

Glad they made it out ok.... what a great thing in this modern age when kids are not allowed to go for a walk, or ride their bikes like we did growing up... that they could walk out into the woods and face some risk that involved more then getting killed on some video game.

[chiefiepoo]

"Several times a year we take groups of teens out for day excursions to do light trail maintenance and for educational hikes. Year round they wear orange vests...it makes them easier to spot if they step off the trail for any reason. The girls don't like being visible but them's the rules!!"

This must be a "Commonwealth" thing. And I believe it is a good thing. I just returned from my first visit to the UK and Scotland. I was impressed with the attention given visibility and identity of youth groups of all ages in the outdoors. Groups wear bright color vests, also similar head gear appropriate for the activity. The vests raise awareness and readily identifies stragglers.

As for the Scouts, seems as though the Wilderness Survival MB payed off.

[atmilkman]

When I was in scouting there was no way the leaders could have kept track of us every minute of every day. We were always "wandering" off somewhere if thats what you want to call it. We preferred to call it exploring. (lol) Injury was just a part of the game. Boys will be boys. Glad to see nobody was hurt in this case. The scouts did good. Just like the SEC, the BSA rules.

[hikerboy57]

they wouldnt have gotten separated in the first place if they had just stayed home, playing video games.

[Abner]

I worked with kids for twenty summers in various parts of the country, in various outdoor programs and camps. Hundreds of days in wilderness with hundreds of groups of hikers, paddlers, and campers.

In fact several persons on this trip did "unsmart" things on this trip to get separated and lost in the first place.

No matter how many times you tell kids you have to stay together while hiking it takes adults being uncompromising enough about staying together; ie stopping at all trail intersections until the whole group is accounted for. Not getting strung out over the trail. Everyone waiting until all are ready to leave a rest stop as a group. Allowing kids to break off and use the bathroom during an agreed upon stop, or only if the whole hiking group stops and waits. Actually counting off, at places like stream crossings and at periodic intervals along the trail, even in a group as small as a dozen total; one adult within a few paces of the beginning of the pack, another adult at the end of the pack, travelling at the pace of the slower hikers and not getting strung out over the trail . The fact that these kids had their backpacks and supplies with them seems to indicate several someones did some "unsmart" things as they were hiking. It could have been as simple as not having enough adults who agreed to be picky enough to demand they stay together.

With the equipment we have today it makes me wonder when personal gps tags, like gps dogtags, might be afordable enough to be used, and a responsible adult might have some sort of handheld device that could track lost kids. Some sort of gps tag will someday perhaps be as common as personal signalling whistles and take even a larger bite out of the risk for groups travelling together. They sell them for field trial hunting dogs, why not scout troops, or backcountry wilderness therapeutic programs involving incarcerated youth?

Given the precautions and protocols my camping groups followed, we never lost a kid, or were separated from a kid. We never found ourselves in such a situation. This situation did turn out badly, a rescuer is in pretty bad shape because he found himself underneath an off road vehicle, because some group couldn't do the basics of staying together on the trail, and some volunteer made a mistake driving an offroad vehicle. It could be much worse. Certainly we've all heard the sad stories where kids get lost and fall off ridges. And it did turn out badly for the injured searcher. So there is plenty of "unsmart" to go around here, hopefully learn from, and remain as a cautionary tale. Sorry to be so serious, I've just seen where the proper precautions can keep this kind of thing from happening.

[generoll]

perhaps the rescuers would do better to stay on foot. ATVs are dangerous in and among themselves. Read the book "Lost" by a ranger from the GSMNP. His take on most rescuers is generally unflattering. Sounds like the kids did fine.

[royalusa]

In my search to find out how the rescue worker is doing, I found the following:

The man is in stable condition with a broken back; no paralysis. Although a serious injury, I’m glad to hear it was not more so. See site: http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20111121/NEWS/311210018/3-missing-Boy-Scouts-found?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage (http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20111121/NEWS/311210018/3-missing-Boy-Scouts-found?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFrontpage)

Also found it interesting that the comment section of the CharlotteObserver.com reported a parent of a boy scout (user name WEDDSUE) from the same troop saying that it is not the first time this leader has ‘lost boys’, as her/his son was “missing for a number of hours” (different trip…different year)…but the parent is very positive in her/his words for the scout leader and how the issue was handled – requiring the boys to write essays about the rules they did not follow and present them to the troop and demoting the boys from their leadership positions for being poor examples. See site: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/11/19/2790597/crews-search-for-missing-boy-scouts.html#disqus_thread#ixzz1eNvfKS5u


From what I can tell from various newspaper sources, the nature call that resulted in the boys getting lost occurred around 1pm and a head count at 4:15pm discovered the missing 3 heads.

It's been a learning experience to read others feedback on their practices of leading groups. Not an easy thing to do obviously.

[MuddyWaters]

Im a scout leader.

We camp every month of the year. Most of the time on a large scout reservation of close to 2000 acres. Its what we consider a safe place. Could a kid get lost? Sure, weve lost a few before for a while, maybe an hour or two. Normally just send out patrols to find them.. Get hurt? ..probably not. Die? No.

We give the boys lots of free time, basically unsupervised, where they can go play in the woods with others and just be boys, something that is missing from suburban life today. Kids need to take responsibility for themselves in order to grow up and mature, we try to give them that opportunity in a relatively safe environment. You have to make mistakes of your own in order to learn.

[canoehead]

Be Prepared. That's the motto of the Boy Scouts.
"Be prepared for what?" someone once asked Baden-Powell, the founder of Scouting,
"Why, for any old thing." said Baden-Powell.
The training you receive in your troop will help you live up to the Scout motto. When someone has an accident, you are prepared because of your first aid instruction. Because of lifesaving practice, you might be able to save a nonswimmer who has fallen into deep water.
But Baden-Powell wasn't thinking just of being ready for emergencies. His idea was that all Scouts should prepare themselves to become productive citizens and to give happiness to other people. He wanted each Scout to be ready in mind and body for any struggles, and to meet with a strong heart whatever challenges might lie ahead.
Be prepared for life - to live happily and without regret, knowing that you have done your best. That's what the Scout motto means.

[canoehead]

Be Prepared. That's the motto of the Boy Scouts.
"Be prepared for what?" someone once asked Baden-Powell, the founder of Scouting,
"Why, for any old thing." said Baden-Powell.
The training you receive in your troop will help you live up to the Scout motto. When someone has an accident, you are prepared because of your first aid instruction. Because of lifesaving practice, you might be able to save a nonswimmer who has fallen into deep water.
But Baden-Powell wasn't thinking just of being ready for emergencies. His idea was that all Scouts should prepare themselves to become productive citizens and to give happiness to other people. He wanted each Scout to be ready in mind and body for any struggles, and to meet with a strong heart whatever challenges might lie ahead.
Be prepared for life - to live happily and without regret, knowing that you have done your best. That's what the Scout motto means.[/QUOTE]

[hikerboy57]

the kids were fine.kids will be kids, and if you dont ever fall down, you dont learn how to get back up. It seems to me it was the rescuers that were unprepared.

[Wise Old Owl]

Oh no, here we go again with the boyscout debate:D

P.S. I have no dog in that argument; I know nothing at all about the boyscouts, I just find it really curious that it gets some really spun up:)

Hey what the hell - people have to push their addenda of dogs on the trail and Boys suck here at Warner Brothers....

Everyone forgets the damn sticky..... But there's a really good thread about cleansing with clenching.... Thats a good read....

Yes for those that don't get it - sarcasm was inserted into the above message.

[Wise Old Owl]

Im a scout leader.

We camp every month of the year. Most of the time on a large scout reservation of close to 2000 acres. Its what we consider a safe place. Could a kid get lost? Sure, weve lost a few before for a while, maybe an hour or two. Normally just send out patrols to find them.. Get hurt? ..probably not. Die? No.

We give the boys lots of free time, basically unsupervised, where they can go play in the woods with others and just be boys, something that is missing from suburban life today. Kids need to take responsibility for themselves in order to grow up and mature, we try to give them that opportunity in a relatively safe environment. You have to make mistakes of your own in order to learn.

MW - possibly the best post ever - can I store that and every time a negative post about Boy Scouts can I reprint that and reference you?

Your thoughtfulness is astounding....

[Sarcasm the elf]

Im a scout leader. We camp every month of the year. Most of the time on a large scout reservation of close to 2000 acres. Its what we consider a safe place. Could a kid get lost? Sure, weve lost a few before for a while, maybe an hour or two. Normally just send out patrols to find them.. Get hurt? ..probably not. Die? No. We give the boys lots of free time, basically unsupervised, where they can go play in the woods with others and just be boys, something that is missing from suburban life today. Kids need to take responsibility for themselves in order to grow up and mature, we try to give them that opportunity in a relatively safe environment. You have to make mistakes of your own in order to learn.Well said Muddywaters. I was fortunate to have scout leaders who also thought this way, they gave us a good amount of freedom and expected us to be responsible for ourselves and for eachother. I think this is one of the reasons our troop also had a much higher than average number of scouts earn the rank of Eagle. The leaders set the bar high and we rose to the challenge.

[Odd Man Out]

Im a scout leader... We give the boys lots of free time, basically unsupervised, where they can go play in the woods with others and just be boys, something that is missing from suburban life today. Kids need to take responsibility for themselves in order to grow up and mature, we try to give them that opportunity in a relatively safe environment. You have to make mistakes of your own in order to learn.

+1 on this one. Here's a link to one of my old posts. It is my "getting lost as a boy scout" story. Sound familiar Muddy?

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?77332-Rain-and-tent-without-getting-soaked!&p=1204187&highlight=#post1204187

[SassyWindsor]

You're a Boy or Girl Scout at the point you join/sign up. Experience begins at zero and hopefully increases. The question is: Who's watching these kids during this process? Responsibility falls on the adults, period.

[hikerboy57]

You're a Boy or Girl Scout at the point you join/sign up. Experience begins at zero and hopefully increases. The question is: Who's watching these kids during this process? Responsibility falls on the adults, period.In this case, the kids seem to have been more experienced than their rescuers, they knew what to do..which is also a testament to their leaders. Its obvious the leaders were the ones who called for the search once they knwew the boys were missing..
I for one, have always had an issue with authority, and created my own epics. Im surprised and glad that my parents survived my youth.

[SassyWindsor]

In this case, the kids seem to have been more experienced than their rescuers, they knew what to do..which is also a testament to their leaders. Its obvious the leaders were the ones who called for the search once they knwew the boys were missing..
I for one, have always had an issue with authority, and created my own epics. Im surprised and glad that my parents survived my youth.

Knowing what to do is great. Not having to use this knowledge is even better. Should have not gotten themselves lost/separated and caused a lot of trouble/expense for S&R.

[hikerboy57]

always carry a :sunwhistle

[Wise Old Owl]

You're a Boy or Girl Scout at the point you join/sign up. Experience begins at zero and hopefully increases. The question is: Who's watching these kids during this process? Responsibility falls on the adults, period.

Sassy we agree on a lot of things... I like many of your posts. but here you are talking about - scouting....and i can tell you that boys run the troop -NOT the adults. They are there for supervision and to make sure that the boys needs come first... We are teaching boys to become responsible adults. We are asking them to teach each other to pull each other up.. particularly when they fall down....Yes the parents and the leader is ultimately responsible. But be aware as an Eagle and as Senior Patrol Leader - and as a 17 year old I ran the troop - not the Scoutmaster. Period. If you have never been there... you don't know.... And if you put a child into scouting and you don't see what I am talking about - YOU HAVE THE WRONG TROOP. That was what Baden Powel wanted.

[Amanita]

Sassy we agree on a lot of things... I like many of your posts. but here you are talking about - scouting....and i can tell you that boys run the troop -NOT the adults. They are there for supervision and to make sure that the boys needs come first... We are teaching boys to become responsible adults. We are asking them to teach each other to pull each other up.. particularly when they fall down....Yes the parents and the leader is ultimately responsible. But be aware as an Eagle and as Senior Patrol Leader - and as a 17 year old I ran the troop - not the Scoutmaster. Period. If you have never been there... you don't know.... And if you put a child into scouting and you don't see what I am talking about - YOU HAVE THE WRONG TROOP. That was what Baden Powel wanted.

Having worked with scouts for a summer, I am inclined to agree. I saw some truly inspiring leadership from a 13 year old who was spl of a very small troop. He was the oldest in his troop but would always go out of his way to help the younger kids out. I never heard a cruel word out of his mouth and he was constantly helping both other campers and the counselors. Unfortunately I also saw troops that were controlled by scoutmasters to such an extent that the SPL position was a complete joke. A joke all to often handed almost by default to whichever boy happens to be the scoutmaster's eldest son.

The truth is by the time someone is a scout they are old enough to know the rules and make a decision whether or not to follow those rules. I suppose no one who commented in this thread every disobeyed when they were a young teen? However, 3 hours is a pretty long time to not notice that three of the kids are missing, especially in an active hiking scenario. So I wouldn't blame the adults for "letting" they boys wander off, but I might question the procedures that let their disappearance go unnoticed for so long.

[Odd Man Out]

Having worked with scouts for a summer, I am inclined to agree. I saw some truly inspiring leadership from a 13 year old who was spl of a very small troop. He was the oldest in his troop but would always go out of his way to help the younger kids out. I never heard a cruel word out of his mouth and he was constantly helping both other campers and the counselors. Unfortunately I also saw troops that were controlled by scoutmasters to such an extent that the SPL position was a complete joke. A joke all to often handed almost by default to whichever boy happens to be the scoutmaster's eldest son.

Yes. I was a SPL when I was a scout. It was a tremendous growth experience. The funny thing was that I had no interest in rank or merit badges, so I was still a second class scout. The rules said that the SPL had to be first class, but the adult leaders knew that all the Eagle Scouts with sashes full of badges would have been hopeless in the position. So they cornered me at one meeting and "persuaded" me to get that last badge I needed to become first class, and then made me SPL and sent me to a week long leadership training camp. Great experience. The only downside, on on camping trip, my father told a really lame ghost story around the campfire and I had scared crying tenderfoot scouts in my tent all night.

[coach lou]

I've tried to google more info on this story. All AP accounts are short & sweet. There must be more to this. The troop seems to be teaching skills because the young scouts did what should be done in the situation they found themselves in, but as some have noted... how did it take so long to realize they were gone!? But also... back in the 'old days', my patrol would tell our parents we were off and be gone for days without scoutmasters or SPLs.

[booney_1]

Couple of comments from an ex-boy scout and ex-boy scout leader...

1. Size of group. All activities require at least two adults. It's recommended that backcountry treks have 4 adults. This makes it difficult to have a group as small as 10.

2. Herding cats...shoot that's easy compared to watching young boys in the woods...

3. One of the problems with watching the kids on a backpacking trip is that they spread out very fast. With kids between 11 and 18 there is a large range is hiking speed. One of my absolute favorite trick is to let the kids start hiking at their own speed...then stop them after a couple of minutes and reverse order. Put the slowest hikers in the front and the fastest in the back. I think it's important to keep the group together and in sight of each other. This is a discipline that I think all troops should enforce. I have hiked in the Pisgah area, and I know in many places, especially near stream crossings, it's far from obvious what trail you want to be on. Last summer my old troop went up to Mount Rogers and one group of kids (with adults) got separated. That's also a very easy area to get lost at. I am a big fan of a troop having a few walkie-talkies for the adults, so if some groups get separated then you can communicate with each other.

4. On the other hand...what a great experience for these kids. There's something to be said for everybody getting lost some time, when there is no serious danger. I'm sure they will pay more attention to trail markers in the future, and maybe carry a map themselves.

[beakerman]

I'm sure its been said but boy socuts is a boy run organization...the inmates run the assylum if you will...adults are there to facilitate and provide "qualified supervision". I'm a scoutmaster and that is how my troop is run.

All of that aside i agree taking a group of 20 boys out on a trail is a bit much. My troop backpacks by patrol which I limit at 10 boys maximum. An excursion is accompanied by two adults in reasonalbly good health--I'm not sending my 400 pound committee member out on the trail with a 40 pouind pack for 5 days. Many of th troops I interact with have similar policy or if they are taking the entire troop they separate teh patrols by half an hour or so...nothing worse than having 30 boys all training down the trail at once.

Don't know how these 3 scouts got lost but it seems to me once lost their training kicked in and they did pretty much as they were supposed to do. I applaude the troop guide that taught them those basics...I chastize the group for letting them get lost in the first place.

[MuddyWaters]

Yep. Boy run, boy led. Adults are advisors and facilitators. Older scouts teach the younger scouts. Letting boys assume responsibility for themselves and others is a key to helping them mature. At campouts, we always have adults segregated from boys by a long distance, and boys must request permission to approach and enter "adult-land". Usually only if there is a serious problem that needs intervention will a senior scout /patrol leader come to inform us. Such as someone hurt, someone missing, a fight, etc.

Some parents do think that scouts are going to babysit their kids . While we arent going to intentionally let them get hurt, we arent there to coddle them or do their tasks for them.

Pitch the tent poorly, you may get wet. Dont plan meals well or buy/bring the food, or BURN it when cooking, and you may not eat much for a weekend. (very common!) Dont bring the right gear or clothing, you may be wet, or cold. They are taught what to do, then it is up to them to execute it, every time.

The article didnt say what really happened. Often times too large scout groups do go out hiking. It is undesireable for several reasons including keeping track of kids, and impact on the trail and quality of experience for all.

Kids shouldnt be allowed to get lost while backpacking though. Something went wrong. Its good that worked out OK. It usually does with boy scouts.

[JAK]

Young people need to spend more time outdoors and in the woods. Boy scouts might do some things wrong, and the might be able to do alot of things better. The more time they spend in the woods, the better they will get at it, just like the rest of us.

[DripDry]

I guess I struggle with how they "lost" the scouts in the first place. I am a 10 year scout leader and often lead backpacking trips. We are boy led (literally) with a scout always designated in front as a group leader. Everyone stops and checks maps at trail crossings (everybody is required to carry a map), and a leader always walks "sweeper" behind the slowest scout- hard to lose anyone that way. An interesting side comment: A fellow leader and I did an AT "half hike" last year and one night stayed at Woods Hole Hostel. Around the campfire the issue of Scouting came up and seven of the ten folks around the campfire had been active scouts (four were Eagles). Not exactly a scientific survey, but it did make me think that we must be doing something right in promoting backcountry experiences.

[hikingshoes]

Im a scout leader.

We camp every month of the year. Most of the time on a large scout reservation of close to 2000 acres. Its what we consider a safe place. Could a kid get lost? Sure, weve lost a few before for a while, maybe an hour or two. Normally just send out patrols to find them.. Get hurt? ..probably not. Die? No.

We give the boys lots of free time, basically unsupervised, where they can go play in the woods with others and just be boys, something that is missing from suburban life today. Kids need to take responsibility for themselves in order to grow up and mature, we try to give them that opportunity in a relatively safe environment. You have to make mistakes of your own in order to learn.

Good leadership = well trained scouts and this show's it...On the other hand the kids could be out there dealing in Drugs or on drugs but there not.How about looking on the good side of things and not so Neg..I ran into some Scouts in Catawba,Va last week and had a Great time chatting with thme and there Scout Master's. This was one of the most Honorable times since ive been hiking there was a 80yr.old Scout Master still out there hiking.I ask one of the Scout leader if he care if i took a pic with him which he was ok with it.I say let the scouts(boys or ladies) have fun and enjoy life and not make them feel like there in jail.HYOH,HS

[Blissful]

We give the boys lots of free time, basically unsupervised, where they can go play in the woods with others and just be boys, something that is missing from suburban life today. Kids need to take responsibility for themselves in order to grow up and mature, we try to give them that opportunity in a relatively safe environment. You have to make mistakes of your own in order to learn.


Good post. My hubby is also a scout leader.

[Blissful]

Scouts are also great for giving over their leftover food to hungry hikers. :) We had a feast in NY one time. Don't bite the little hands that may feed you. And be willing to give a talk to them too.

[MedicineWoman2012]

"... that they could walk out into the woods and face some risk that involved more then getting killed on some video game. " I hear ya SAILING FAITH!

[Creek Dancer]

I am proud to say that my son is a Eagle Scout.

Boy Scouts is far from a perfect organization, but I believe my son acquired skills and learned lessons in scouting that he could not have learned in school, church or at home. And he did not grow up constantly playing video games.