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Rift Zone
03-05-2005, 13:49
I saw a conversation a little while back go the way of the water filter. It seems to that there is a ligitimate possibility the mandate to filter EVERYTHING comes more from commercial hype than pathogens. What is your take?

Lion King
03-05-2005, 14:23
I remember in 98 whent I first went on a long distand GA-Me hike that I had one...I used it twice I think...hated it, hated the time, hated the bugs that would eat me alive when I sta and pumped that crazy thing...So I got to Suches and mailed it home.

I heard a lot of people saying..."oh,, you are going to get giarida(SP?)"

At that point I didnt care, and almost hoped I would because it would have given me a reason to quit and go home. But I never got sick...ever.
I've hiked a few thousand on the AT in the last few years, and never once have I had a water born illness.
Did the John Muir in 2002, didnt filter there either, didnt get sick there either.
I was raised in South GA, and we had a natural well running water into our house, my theory is this, maybe I got immune to it, maybe I am a carrier and it doesnt bother me one bit, or maybe I am one of those who giarrdia doesnt effect.

Who knows? But I am glad I can stop on a steaming' hot day and dip my face into a stream, or grab a handfull of cold water dripping off a mossy rock and enjoy it without worry.
I know people WHO DO FILTER who have gotten giarrdia...I think its more an issue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...maybe, or its a sales gimmick.

hikerjohnd
03-05-2005, 14:25
I am by no means a long distance hiker - yet - but I have about 1000 miles under my belt (best guess looking back over my life thus far..) I have always used a filter and never had a problem.

Lone Wolf
03-05-2005, 14:36
I have never filtered or treated water, never will and have never gotten sick.

Doctari
03-05-2005, 15:30
I voted: always used, no problems.

My vote probably should have been, Usually used.

That said: My filter will no longer be carried, partly due to the weight (17 Oz) and partly due to having to stand there while filtering & let the bugs feast on me. I grew up in the woods, drank freely from (Most) streams, never got sick. Maybe Lion King has a point, possibly we are immune. Or maybe it's the fact that I live on hot sauce :dance & they just die when reaching my insides :)

Doctari

oldfivetango
03-05-2005, 16:50
Ask 3 people a question and you may get 3 different answers.
I used to be a water plant operator in my distant past-does not make
me an authority by any means-just makes me opinionated.
One of the things about the good ole USA is that if you live in a municipality you are drinking filtered,chemically treated water from the tap.And as Martha might say-"That's a good thing"-well up to a point that is.You don't have immunity built up because of it but you aren't full of parasites or dead yet either.
While those who are raised on well water may think they have built up immunities i would say "think again".Generally speaking, a properly lined well
of sufficient depth will pass a pathogen test for coliform bacteria most every time-mine did as long as the tap was properly sterilized when the sample was taken.It didn't matter because Congress and the state of Georgia now require chlorination for public water sytems(ie those seving 25 people or more) But the chances are that deep well water is about as good as it gets and with no additives of any kind for private systems.Apparently Mother Earth is the ultimate filtering system.Emphasis on the word filter.
Either way-i doubt most american citizens have much immunity built up which is why we get little conditions like "Montezuma's Revenge" when we go to other places.You don't want to belive it?Go ask a missionary that has served any time at all in Africa or South America and get a REAL lesson on parasites and other"cooties" they and their children picked up along the way.And if you want to be absolutely mortified watch "Eaten Alive" on the
Discovery channel next time it comes on.It is about water borne and other
"cooties" that can do some serious damage;some of which require surgery.
The best part was the parasite that the guy watched crawling across the
the inside of his eye in the mirror while he was shaving-that was WAY cool.
Unless you want to be really morbid and think that the guy whose urinary tract was invaded by a spiny 6 inch fishlike parasite that sorta stole the show. The spines prevent the critter from backing out of the "entrance" btw. But i digress.
Here's the facts-you dont know what is in the water you are
scooping out of a stream or even a spring-it is all subject to various forms
of pollution.Organic or inorganic-doesn't matter.In a spring there are animals
drinking out of it-not bashing dog owners but you know what that means-you know where a dog's mouth goes to when he lies down without me having to tell you;lysosomes or no lysosomes on that dog's tongue it does not matter,fecal matter can be imparted to the spring.
I know a young man who was dying of thirst in the woods-the stream looked so inviting but his dear old granny that he respected had always told him not to drink from it.About a 1/4 mile later he was glad that he had not given in-there was a DEAD HORSE laying in the stream there.Similar incident happened to some campers i know who went to the mountains of the NorthWest.Some scooped up water coming out from under an ice flow and drank it with great gusto.One of the group walked up above the snowbank
and told the others "Ya'll come see this"-it was a DEAD MOUNTAIN GOAT and only a few feet from where the others had been drinking.
As for being chewed on by bugs while filtering.In the Southeast anyways,thats where the worst of the mosquitoes reside.Better to scoop up a platty full of water and get up to a breezy hill before you stop.Or use
a bottle with the filter built in for a quick drink if time and convenience is an issue.
As for getting sick-most of it is from poor hygiene.People need to either
use the alcohol gel or actually wash their hands before eating or handling food.And water bottles-drink ALL the water out of the bottle within a few hours of the first sip becase you just innoculated it with bacteria when it first touched your mouth and your "backwash" got in the bottle.That bacteria grows exponentially from what i have seen on the news.
If i was looking to lose a pound of pack weight it would be food before
filter but that's just me.And i would do the filtering work out of the creekzone.
Cheers to all.
Oldfivetango

Lion King
03-05-2005, 17:32
I guess I just like 'living on the edge'.



:)

ed bell
03-05-2005, 18:21
I used to filter all the time, started using the drops (AquaMira) over the past couple years. No problems here. Several of my regular hiking crew who areb older than me NEVER treat water. One even drank out of the Chattooga River near Burrell's Ford. (I'll skip that, thank-you) I drink straight from springs where I believe the elevation and location provide me a good source. Two springs that come to mind are the one about a 1/2 mile past the summit of Grassy Ridge on a side trail near Jane Bald on the AT, and the spring on the South side of Cold Mountain in Shining Rock Wilderness, N.C. I have heard that as many as 70% of people exposed to Giardia do not show significant symptoms. Is this accurate to anyones knowledge? I am a sucker for swimming in rivers, lakes, ect. and I would think that going underwater as I love to do would expose me, but like I said, no problems here.
:sun

ed bell
03-05-2005, 18:24
should read "are older" not "areb older", alough I guess they are bolder. Or would that be are more bold? lol:D

hipo
03-05-2005, 19:15
no I have never used filters dang things take to long for me!I do bring the pills from wallmart but only used the a couple times in 7yrs of hiking,But Im not against those that do! its really just a personal choice,:dance Hipo

Lilred
03-05-2005, 22:51
I filter and will continue to filter. Ever since I read a trail journal, I will always filter. Seems a woman who used chemical treatment had filled up her nalgene, added the treatment and waited the amount of time it took. When she went back to her water bottle, she noticed little tiny black dots on the side of the nalgene. Turns out, they were itty bitty snails. No thank you, I like escargo, but I'll pass on the Appalachian version.

Lion King, great idea, grab the water and go filter it elsewhere. I'll remember that this summer when I'm out on my month long section.

Rift Zone
03-05-2005, 22:53
I did not use filters for years and years and years.... With no problems, not one. Then I started outfitting myself really good and got a filter. I have used one ever since -years and never had a problem.

I'm starting to think... well Duh :datz




Besides, I could probably set up shop... :welcome
Y'all sucka bugs! You don't want to play!
I ain't been sick in three years!

:banana -- :jump -- :rolleyes: -- :D

Mountain Dew
03-06-2005, 02:43
I got giardia in 2003 on my first thru. My filter broke and I couldn't filter for half of SMNP. A week later in Erwin I was erupting like nobody's business from both ends for four days. I'm talking taking a #2 about 30 times a day and throwing up till your throat hurts. The only thing that make it go away was a perscription for the same medication they give anthrax patients. LOL..no lie. That sucked ! Thank God i was at Miss Janets house when I was sick. Saying all that.....

On my thru-hike of the PCT this year I want to try Polarpure. What are your opinions of this product ? And while i'm thinking of it... What did you guys do in NJ about the terrible water if you had no filter ?

steve hiker
03-06-2005, 04:08
In my opinion you don't need a filter on the southern AT. A filter is to strain out dirt, not kill germs. Most of the water on the southern AT that I've seen is clear, thus you need to be concerned about bugs not silt.

Thus, I've used Aqua Mira only on my section hikes in TN/NC. Don't need a Pure Hiker or other filter. Maybe up north where you have to resort to drinkin water out of scum ponds, but not south of the VA line. In the south, you need only kill bugs not filter.

The Hog
03-06-2005, 09:39
This subject has been hashed and rehashed many times on this site. Some are convinced that there's a manufacturer's conspiracy to get them to buy their products (of course, many unscrupulous businessmen WILL do just about anything to make money), so the conspiracy theorists reject ALL products, even the useful ones. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Others are macho men, they're much tougher than any ole microorganism (what a hoot!). They're unalterably convinced that since they have never treated or filtered their water and have never gotten sick, they never will. At least, until they actually DO get sick (see giardia post above).

Some aren't sure what to do and still have an open mind on the subject. This is for you:

I think it's safe to assume that you want to drink water that is free from fecal contamination. That's good, because there's universal agreement among scientists that fecally contaminated water is unsafe to drink.

It's also safe to assume that plenty of animals visit A.T. water sources all the time (wild animals, hikers dogs, etc). They excrete and shed wastes into the water and some even die in the water (I have personally seen a moose carcass in a water source and have videotape of deer pooping and peeing in a water source). The wastes contain bacteria, protozoans, and viruses that contaminate the water sources. Many of these organisms are pathogenic.

Even if animals do not poop directly in the water, when it rains, some of the fecal material lying on the ground is carried downhill into the water sources. The bottom line is this: most water sources have varying levels of bacteria, viruses, and protozoans. Which is to say that water sources have varying levels of fecal contamination.


Are some more contaminated than others? Yes, but you have no practical way of knowing how contaminated the water is. Clarity and taste are not reliable indicators. I have personally tested water that looks and smells perfect, but found it to be LOADED with bacteria. But springs are OK, right? Not necessarily. Bacteria live underground, even deep underground in solid rock. And, a surprising fraction of springs coming right out of the ground have been found to be infested with the protozoan cryptosporidium, which can cause serious disease and even kill you. How do you know which spring is good and which isn't? Without laboratory testing, you're guessing .


If I've given you the impression that there is a wide variety of waterborne organisms that are capable of making you very sick, then I've done something useful. You probably already know that Giardia is the only the tip of the iceberg. What you may not realize is that the majority of gastrointestinal illness that stems from ingesting untreated water is caused by viruses.


So, what to do? IMO, purchase a system (preferably lightweight) that will take out viruses, bacteria, and protozoans (many products will not take out viruses - don't buy them). Or, you can boil your water. I like a filtration system that leaves no aftertaste. For me, it's Exstream. But there are other useful products as well.

In the final analysis, you have options - you can take the advice of knowledgeable people who have experience in water microbiology (such as oldfivetango above), or you can put your faith in a smattering of anecdotal accounts, it's up to you.

Lone Wolf
03-06-2005, 09:44
I'll stick to my macho no filtering, no treating ways. I ain't skeered! :jump

MOWGLI
03-06-2005, 10:15
On my thru-hike of the PCT this year I want to try Polarpure. What are your opinions of this product ? And while i'm thinking of it... What did you guys do in NJ about the terrible water if you had no filter ?

I used Polar Pur for perhaps 2100 miles in 2000. I still use it occasionally. I haven't filtered in a long time, but in prep for my summer hike with my daughter, I purchased a new filter for my Pur Hiker yesterday. What's good enuf for me, ain't necessarily good enuf for my daughter.

Youngblood
03-06-2005, 10:19
I got giardia in 2003 on my first thru. My filter broke and I couldn't filter for half of SMNP. A week later in Erwin I was erupting like nobody's business from both ends for four days. I'm talking taking a #2 about 30 times a day and throwing up till your throat hurts. The only thing that make it go away was a perscription for the same medication they give anthrax patients. LOL..no lie. That sucked ! Thank God i was at Miss Janets house when I was sick. Saying all that.....

On my thru-hike of the PCT this year I want to try Polarpure. What are your opinions of this product ? And while i'm thinking of it... What did you guys do in NJ about the terrible water if you had no filter ?
MD,

A few years back I was doing a little internet research on hiking the PCT. I came across one web site that had an interesting proposal about giardi (you do realize that folks with filters or chemical treatment sometimes get it too). He said the symptoms were such that the onset of diaheria was different from the more common cases of food poisoning and that if you knew this you could self diagnose the giardia... and if you carried the right medicine then you could take it early enough to prevent the giardia from getting to the extreme conditions that you experienced. He also said that the best medicine was not available in the USA (what he mentioned only required a single dose?) but was available in Mexico, just across the border from where the southern terminus of the PCT is.

If you are interested I will see if I saved any of that info and get you a copy.

Youngblood

superman
03-06-2005, 10:20
I used my MSR water filter until I got up north and there was potable water available almost everyday. I sent my MSR home and used iodine pills for a while and then switched to Polar Pure. I used lime juice to cover the flavor and I like drinking lime water. When I got to Maine I filled my nalgene bottle as it was getting dark. I added polar pure and went to sleep. The next morning I added some lime juice and hiked off. By noon I was about to finish the water when I realized that there were a bunch of swimmy things, in the last inch, who seemed to like Polar Pure. I got my filter back as soon as I could. I've hiked on the Florida Trail, PCT and other trails where I would strongly advise using a filter. On 2 April I'm going to hike the CDT for a month with my filter.

NotYet
03-06-2005, 10:46
In the fall of 2000 we were still in the middle of a drought. From Pennsylvania through Virginia I remember many of the water sources being tiny mud holes...I was definitely glad to have a filter with me (in several cases, the filter actually made it take less time to gather water!).

oldfivetango
03-06-2005, 10:53
In my opinion you don't need a filter on the southern AT. A filter is to strain out dirt, not kill germs. Most of the water on the southern AT that I've seen is clear, thus you need to be concerned about bugs not silt.

Thus, I've used Aqua Mira only on my section hikes in TN/NC. Don't need a Pure Hiker or other filter. Maybe up north where you have to resort to drinkin water out of scum ponds, but not south of the VA line. In the south, you need only kill bugs not filter. Ok-I'm not trying to start something BUT-a bandana is to strain out dirt,not kill germs.But as long as you are at least using Aqua Mira you are doing the right thing to be safe as you are actually treating with something that kills the important stuff.
For the record-todays modern filters remove alot more than dirt-for instance, the Katadyn Extreme Water XR Purifier bottle removes bacteria,protozoa(Giardia,Cryptosporidia)plus kills over 99.99% of waterborne viruses,as determined under the US EPA.treats 100 liters.
The ONLY EPA registered purifier bottle.Holds 34 oz weighs 7 oz.
And you can carry the Extreme Cyst filter that gets the giardia and crypto
out if you dont want to pack a full blown filter cartridge replacement.Weight was not listed on the site.Cost of this purifier is$49.95 at Campmor.com
It's a great "scoop and sip" item.
Next- I also carry the MSR Miniworks EX Water FILTER 16.3 oz $79.95
equipped it with a Sweetwater Silt Stopper $9.99(it can be backflushed btw) and replacements are available.Not sure of weight -feels like a couple ounces to me.
This ceramic filter removes down to .2 microns nominal and .3 microns absolute and REMOVES bacteria,protozoa,giardia,iodine,pesticides,and cryptosporidia.It is a ceramic filter which some people complain about clogging although it comes with a guage and cleaner kit.Also has activated carbon to improve taste.The siltstopper II works great with the filter as a prefilter and is easy to install btw.
Be advised that I am not necessarily recommending the items listed here-
they are simply the systems that i "settled" on for my own use.There are
other lighter and less expensive items on the market for sure.
Go to any of the usual outfitters and you will find all kinds of water
purifiers,filters,chemicals.It's all good - better than "living on the edge"
and the only question is how much you want to spend and carry to avoid the suffering,expense,and inconvenience experienced by hikers like Mountain Dew who was apparently "wiped out" by little itty bitty invisible water borne pathogens.I got sick once while camping (intestinal flu virus unrelated to water) that went through our entire camp.My experience was NOTHING compared to what brother MD experienced at Miss Janet's house but it was enough to let me know that "sick in the woods" is not where i want to be.
Sorry if i've "been on a soapbox" here-yeah, i got real issues with water purity and illness.And as a backup to all of the above some of the chemical
tablets and solutions on the market are mostly infallible if you know how to use them and have the 4 hours to wait on some of them.As for clorox-be careul here-some of it is "flavored" with scent additives.I would not recommend it unless you have researced it and have seen the bottle it came from to determine what you are actually getting.Apparently it will
kill most "cooties" except for cryptosporidium-only filtering or the 4 hour wait time chemcicals will get those cysts based on the research that i have done.
Cheers to all,
Oldfivetango:)

Lone Wolf
03-06-2005, 10:57
I wonder if Dew was actually tested and diagnosed by a doctor or just assumed "bad water" made him sick? I've known dozens of hikers who've claimed they had giardia but never saw a doctor.

SGT Rock
03-06-2005, 11:18
I agree with Wolf here, I've heard people claim Guardia but the treatment they did to get over it doesn't mesh with Guardia, more like a stomach virus, dehydration, or a combination of the two. I had dysentery once, and that has to be one of the worst things I have been through, got it in Iraq while still drinking treated water and Army processed food. The lesson here and with any serious research on the subject will tell you that hygiene is many time more important than water filtering and treatment.

As for me, I treat sometimes, filter nevermore (did it once) and remain Heath as long as I remember to wash my hands.

NICKTHEGREEK
03-06-2005, 11:31
I had problems twice, once I got a mouthful of water from the Mon river in Pittsburgh as a kid. Bed/toilet ridden for 5 or 6 days weak as a kitten for a week or so after. Second time was in Viet Nam and I was so sick I would have shot myself to end the misery if I had the strength to pull the trigger. My guts rumbled and churned for a month afterward. and my emissions violated the Geneva Convention.

Now I filter /treat every drop I drink. Not to invite ridicule, but that includes the water from well pumps along the C&O canal towpath. I ain't going through it ever again if I can help it.

Footslogger
03-06-2005, 11:33
I had used them in the past (still own the MSR Mini and the PUR Voyager/Hiker) but then abandoned filters in favor of AquaMira. Recently located a gravity filter system that I could rig to my 4 Liter Platypus (which I was carrying anyway as my water gathering bag). It has a reported 1.7 Liter/minute flow rate and is supposed to remove 99.8% of waterborne contaminants. Haven't had a chance to use it yet but taking it on a shake down hike from Kincora to Damascus in May. If all works out well I may start carrying it and use AquaMira only when I am really concerned about water contamination.

'Slogger
AT 2003

NICKTHEGREEK
03-06-2005, 11:37
Hate to double post, but I agree with Sgt Rock that good hygene goes a long way too. It may be more critical than filtering but I won't take the risk.

hipo
03-06-2005, 12:41
Iknow of several people hiking myself that said they had giardia but also said it also could of been somthing they ate from town!I myself have been sick at times when hiking in my case usually it was from town food,porking out .:) Hipo

superman
03-06-2005, 12:44
Some times it's the little things that get you. I got hepatitis A from the Dong Nai River. It gives you a bad feeling when your eyes and skin turn yellow and your urine turns black. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

With the increasing population and housing growth one area after another in the US is having water problems of all sorts. It's like playing Russian roulette to not take water serious.

SGT Rock
03-06-2005, 13:46
Iknow of several people hiking myself that said they had giardia but also said it also could of been somthing they ate from town!I myself have been sick at times when hiking in my case usually it was from town food,porking out .:) Hipo
You may be on to something there. You are probably more likely to get sick on the trail from eating at a restaurant with bad sanitation than you are from your water. I know I have been sick more often a few hours after eating at such a place than I have been on the trail. If I remember High School health class correctly, most stomach viruses hit you about 4 hours after ingestion. So if you get sick, look about that long back to see what you did wrong :o

DMA, 2000
03-06-2005, 13:50
I dumped my pump-filter at Walasi-Yi for a Polar Pure and I never regretted it.

Pros:
Easy to use when there's a decent flow of water. Just put the bottle in, dump in the iodine, move on. No need to wait for the mosquitos.
Lightweight and takes up little space.
Won't get clogged and requires no maintenance (except replenishment after each use, of course).
Very inexpensive.
Iodine tastes better than chlorine. I grew to prefer the taste of iodinated trail water to chlorinated town water.

Cons:
More difficult to use when the water source is shallow or has no drop. Bring along a small cup to scoop, and let the mosquitos feast.
Water is not instantly available...even when the bottle is full, one should wait for the iodine to take effect.
Snails and other floaties are not dealt with. Bring a bandana or something as a filter.
Iodine tastes worth than nothing. I still prefer the taste of filtered water to iodinated.
It's quite breakable...oops.

RagingHampster
03-06-2005, 14:23
I use to use a First Need Deluxe. Then I stripped it of everything except the pump and put a siltstopper filter on it, treating the "strained" water with AquaMira. Now I just use my cookpot to scoop up water, filter through a bandana (if needed), and then hit it with AquaMira. When cooking, I simply put untreated water in my cookpot and bring it to a boil. Technically you're supposed to boil it for a specific amount of time, but I haven't had any trouble yet.

I agree with Sgt. Rock that safety is largely a part of hygiene. Another important factor is your source choice. Knowing the area can help. If you have runoff from a farm mixing with the source, you're asking for it! I always try to time my refills (if possible) to draw from sources that aren't at the lowest point. A small trickle of water on the side of a mountain is usually a better choice than a valley stream/river.

steve hiker
03-06-2005, 16:04
A scientific report from California came out a year or two ago, that found very few harmful bacteria or viruses in water in the Sierras. The primary reason hikers got intestinal sickness was from fecal contamination, from poor personal hygene. So, wash your hands before you put something in your mouth. I also carry a small thing of alcohol hand sanitizer to use before handling food.

Lone Wolf
03-06-2005, 16:13
Another reason I absolutely do not share food with other hikers.

Rift Zone
03-06-2005, 16:49
or you can put your faith in a smattering of anecdotal accounts, it's up to you.

Illnesses stem from ingesting pathogens... How many of them? The answer varies. How many pathogens are present in the water? What about ten feet downstream? What about first thing in the morning? You would be hard pressed to give me the likeliness of getting sick if I went straight for a source that was known to be contaminated. Now I'm not trying to say anything other than your way is certainly the most secure. I'm trying to say out of 44 individuals.... only two votes represent ever having problems.

Slimer
03-06-2005, 17:29
I didnt treat or filter my water. I think most sickness is due to eating out of dirty pots/forks/spoons.

Happypappy
03-06-2005, 20:01
I simply drank right from the source for many years, then one day got a good dose of it. The doc who treated me was a hiker who hiked with a microbiologist; they showed me just what lived in our "spring" water and what it could do to one's insides. I have been using a filter ever since, and will continue to do so. I can tell you, once is enough.

chowhound
03-06-2005, 21:48
I spent a week on the Superior Hiking Trail last June and developed giardia (doctor confirmed) a few days after returning home. I wasn't as ill as some people report, but it wasn't pleasant either. The treatment was two weeks on flagyl. I got giardia in spite of using aqua mira and being careful about personal hygiene. I'm wondering if I should have increased the dose when getting water from obviously occupied beaver ponds. Anyway, my points are that giardia is not a myth and that you can get it even if you do take reasonable precautions. By the way, I grew up on water from a shallow hand dug well and drank minimally treated water from all sorts of nasty spots (read scum covered puddles) in Viet Nam with never a problem. My wife bought me a filter and made me promise to use it in the future.

Tater
03-06-2005, 21:55
I don't think Aqua Mira kills guardia.

SGT Rock
03-06-2005, 22:00
I don't think Aqua Mira kills guardia.

It does, it just must combine correctly and then it takes 30 minutes to do it.

oldfivetango
03-06-2005, 22:47
Greetings All,
If you want to "shell that corn right on down to the cob" as the
late great Jerry Clower used to say-then go check out the GiardiaClub.com
for a truly inspiring treatise on the subject.It's all about Aqamira and Pur Filters as well as a great description of the horrors and sypmtoms of
bacterial versus cystic induced diarrhea like Giardia and Crypto.It is a MUST
read site for anyone interested in the subject of water safety.You will learn more about "the squirts" than you thought possible-i guarantee.
Then if you want to get as confused as i am at this point,run over to
campmor and look up Acquamira and see that they recommend filtering with
one of the filters mentioned on the Giardiaclub site to get the giardia and
crypto cysts out before treating as Campmor claims that the Aqua Mira does not kill the cysts.However,it looks to me like Aqua Mira turns into cholrine dioxide in 5 minutes and then is supposed to kill both strains of the cysts from what i read on the G-club site.
The tablet form of cholrine dioxide that i settled on is Micro Pur.It kills everything in 20 minutes EXCEPT crypto(the killer cyst) which takes a FULL 4 HOURS to kill-so its a bedtime or tote all day job if you ask me unless you filter those bad boys out first.I think this was referred by someone earlier as "the strain and treat" method which sounds like the foolproof method of choice to me.
Anyway,I have pm'd The Hog to get a clarification and clear up my
confused and befuddled mind at this point.Incidentally for all you iodine lovers out there-the giardiaclub.com site clearly states the cryptosporidia can even be "cultured" ie "grown" in pure iodine-now aint that a comforting thought?
Looks like my method is going to include filtering plus chemical treatment
just like it did back in the old days when i was a water plant operator.Except the municipal plants generally treat with chemicals and then filter and do some post filter injections of lime and/or chlorine as circumstances dictate.The more things change-the more they stay the same.Oh well-i hope that THE HOG will jump in here and clear all this up.
Cheers,
Oldfivetango:jump

Lone Wolf
03-06-2005, 22:50
hype and fear.

Mountain Dew
03-06-2005, 23:21
After 4 or 5 days I knew it wasn't the flu because my symptoms were different than the other hikers in town that were sick in Erwin. Miss Janet took me to the doctor where I was told that they were 90% sure it was Giardia. The Dr. ( A really pretty lady) told me that without a fecal matter lab test she couldn't be sure and I informed her that wouldn't be needed. Polarpur and extra attention to cleaning my nalgene, pot, and spork will work I hope.

RagingHampster
03-06-2005, 23:31
I'm a wastewater operator, but know some things about drinking water treatment as well.

Most towns around here simply treat resivoir water with chlorine. The chlorine is added at one of the initial pumphouses, and then "treats" the water as it flows through the pipes.

Using aquamira is a similar process, so long as you make intelligent choices about your water source (ie don't draw from puddles of standing water at the edge of a cowfield), and allow some time for the chlorine dioxide to do its thing. Chlorine doesn't kill everything, but following the above rules should keep you safe.

Even pump filters can develop shortcircuits which contaminate the output. I also get the creeps when I think about my drinking water passing through a canister loaded with nastys that have been left to brood. Especially when you use it for a weeks vacation, then take it out of the closet a month later to use again.

Just my $0.02

Newb
03-07-2005, 00:28
I was exposed to giaridia one time. Or was that Gil Gerard? I can't remember.

dp the wonder dog
03-07-2005, 00:46
Twice, I have found human poop in the uppermost pool at a spring. I will always filter, thankyouverymuch (once was in the smokies, other, if I recall correctly, is the gap just before going up Hump Mtn.)

I've been surprised at the cross-contamination that occurs -- i.e. using a water bottle to collect water and filtering from that bottle....then putting "clean" water right back into the bottle that had been in the "contaminiated" spring.

The Hog
03-07-2005, 09:43
I have no experience with Aqua Mira or Micro Pur, so I can't comment on those systems, but I'm skeptical of any system that relies on chlorine alone to decontaminate drinking water. One of the problems is that chlorine has been shown to actually HELP cryptosporidium emerge from their cysts. Since iodine is chemically very similar to chlorine, I would worry that it too might help protozoans excyst.

Exstream is a good system because it first filters out protozoans like crypto and giardia AND bacteria, then passes the water over an iodine resin to disable viruses. The resulting water tastes good and there's no waiting. Also, it's very lightweight. The big drawback is that the stream of water coming from the nozzle is tiny, and it requires a lot of squeezing to get a drink.

People using filter systems should be aware that bacteria are adept at colonizing filters. What happens is they get trapped in the filter, then start to multiply. Over time, their numbers within the substance of a filter can grow to astronomical proportions, then break off in large chunks. That's why you need to change filters on a regular basis. If you don't, you're asking for trouble.

Bacteria are also adept at multiplying in standing water (such as in your water bottle). Incredibly, they even find a way to grow in ultrapure water (I used to test the ultrapure water in a lab for bacteria and always found at least some bacteria). If you go too long without cleaning your water container, bacteria will form a biofilm on the interior surfaces, which can build up and break off in huge chunks. Again, if you don't clean your water containers, you're asking for trouble.

It is true that some of the gastrointestinal distress found on the trail can be traced to food. Some of it is overeating in town. Some of it is food poisoning, usually an overgrowth of salmonella or some other bacteria in food that should have been refrigerated. And some of it is undoubtably consumption of too much junk food that your body was simply not designed to handle. But food is only part of the equation.

But there's waterborne illness too, and no practical way for a hiker to tell which is which. By the time you're blowing your guts out (often out in the middle of nowhere), you will no longer care anyway, and your hike will be interupted at best, and finished at worst. And it's all easily preventable.

That's why I recommend good hygiene, good water treatment, change filters, clean your water bottle, a good diet, and moderate consumption of alcohol (booze kills many microorganisms).

SGT Rock
03-07-2005, 09:50
That's why I recommend good hygiene, good water treatment, change filters, clean your water bottle, a good diet, and moderate consumption of alcohol (booze kills many microorganisms).

Cool, now it contributes to my heath in another way :D

Peaks
03-07-2005, 11:08
Lots of posts here.

I think the facts are first, that when someone gets sick, the water always get blamed. In fact, poor hygene is frequently the true cause.

Second, some people are more susceptable than others to illness. Face it, some of us have a cast iron stomach. Others don't. So, what may be a safe water source for me isn't for the next person.

So, I think treating water is a personal choice. But I would not discourage anyone from being cautious. When in doubt, then treat. It's not worth ruining your trip.

All methods of treating have their pluses and minuses. Some use chemicals, some filter. Do the research and see what works for you.

oldfivetango
03-07-2005, 13:20
Cool, now it contributes to my heath in another way :D Hehe- I wonder if that's why L Wolf has dodged the bacteria bullet
for so long? Just kidding.
Oldfivetango:D:D:D:D:D:D

Mountain Dew
03-11-2005, 02:21
Polarpur only works with water over 68* or so it says on the bottle. What tha heck ... so it is totally useless otherwise ?

orangebug
03-11-2005, 07:13
Polar Pure is still an excellent wound cleaner at temps below 68F. It stings less than alcohol. It's use as a water treatment is just as effective in preventing GI events as when the temps are higher.

Carry Polar Pure for first aid, not water treatment.

Youngblood
03-11-2005, 08:31
Polarpur only works with water over 68* or so it says on the bottle. What tha heck ... so it is totally useless otherwise ?
MD,

Their website ( http://www.polarequipment.com/ ) says this:

"QUESTION #7: How long do I treat very cold water (35° F for example)?

ANSWER: Lower temperature water treatment times have not been determined for EPA approval at this time for any chemical water disinfectant products. Our suggestion is to warm the water to be treated to 68° F if possible. When camping in cold conditions, water to be treated can be warmed by keeping the bottle close to your body, either in your jacket or sleeping bag."

and this in another place:

"Let treated water stand (tightly covered) for 20 minutes before use. Water that is colder than 68° F will take longer."

So, I guess the info on the bottle is misleading? I mean they do have the thermometer on the side of the bottle telling you how much to adjust the dosage when the temperature of the iodine solution varies.

Youngblood

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 08:57
As I understand it, it doesn't require more iodine to treat cold water, it takes longer for the water to treat properly. The difference is in the solution itself. If the solution bottle temperature is lower, then more capfulls of it are required, see dosage table: http://www.polarequipment.com/dosage.html

This has something (I belive) to do with solubles and water temperature.

Since we are on this, did you know that water treatd with iodine also has a lower freezing point?

Youngblood
03-11-2005, 09:48
I hoped and figured as much since I haven't noticed my Polarpur freezing this winter. Do you know at what temperature the Polarpur freezes?

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 09:52
It has to do with the amount of soluables in the water. So unless I know exactly the amount of soluables, I can't tell exactly. I GUESS that is is about the same as salt water.

Granger
03-11-2005, 09:53
Personally I carry a 3oz water bag that hold 2.5 gallons (http://www.antigravitygear.com/products/WaterBag2.5gallon[12].html)

and i use a First Need purifier to clean it. total weight is 1 lb, 6ozs. Though there are lighter solutions this has worked for me even when forced to get water from a standing cesspool. (not recommended but it was during a drought and there were no other options) The thing that really amazed me was the funky smell and look of the water prior to purifing and after there was no smell, it looked crystal clear and tasted good. All this with no chemicals. Again, I know this is a heavier solution but it works for me.

Cheers,
granger

The Old Fhart
03-11-2005, 10:04
SGT Rock-"Since we are on this, did you know that water treatd with iodine also has a lower freezing point?"True, but I think that to make a measurable difference might require more iodine than you'd be safe drinking. Check here (http://www.wcsscience.com/saltandfreezing/ofwater.html) for some info on eutectic mixtures. One mixture we are all aware of is salt/water mixture used either on the highways or in making homemade ice cream. Ethylene glycol used for car antifreeze is another example. Generally the concentrations required to obtain a significant lowering of the freezing point range from a few percent to 50 percent. I believe the lowest a salt/water mixture will remain liquid is about 6 degrees F for a saturated solution.

Remembering the clasical chemical test for starch, I do agree that it takes little iodine to make my instant mashed potatoes turn blue:( or my (dancing) banana:banana cream pudding to turn greenish. One more good reason to eat in the dark. :D

oldfivetango
03-11-2005, 10:10
I'm a wastewater operator, but know some things about drinking water treatment as well.

Most towns around here simply treat resivoir water with chlorine. The chlorine is added at one of the initial pumphouses, and then "treats" the water as it flows through the pipes.

Using aquamira is a similar process, so long as you make intelligent choices about your water source (ie don't draw from puddles of standing water at the edge of a cowfield), and allow some time for the chlorine dioxide to do its thing. Chlorine doesn't kill everything, but following the above rules should keep you safe.

Even pump filters can develop shortcircuits which contaminate the output. I also get the creeps when I think about my drinking water passing through a canister loaded with nastys that have been left to brood. Especially when you use it for a weeks vacation, then take it out of the closet a month later to use again.

Just my $0.02 You are so right- nasty's breed -that's why i gave up on the hydration
pack btw although i did initially like the idea of a steady sip.
My filter manual says to dry it out before longterm storage.For a ceramic filter this would be as simple as taking it out and placing it in the windshield of your vehicle for a few hours on a sunny day.Think about it-SUNSHINE-
the great purifier!
Cheers,
Oldfivetango:)

chomp
03-11-2005, 10:12
I am with Lone Wolf on this one - don't believe the hype.

BTW - this is coming from someone that got Giardia. Don't believe that hype either, it isn't all that bad. Sure, for some people it is, but those are the cases that you hear about. I got it and it made me uncomfortable, but it was worst when I was in town eating ice cream and drinking beer. When I was hiking, it wasn't so bad.

That was back in 99, and I haven't had a problem since. I drank water from a drainage ditch surrounded by cow patties. I have drank standing, murky water that smelled like methane. I have drank water from a creek where free range cattle were roaming. Again, no problems.

Can it happen? Sure it can, it happened to me. Is it LIKELY to happen? Well, my experience says no. And while I have had to drink out of some nasty sources, it was worth it for all the good, fresh, cold water that I have drank simply by dipping my bottle in a stream or a spring.

Personally, I would be much more careful about shaking other hikers hands or sharing other hikers food than I would about filtering my water. If you want to filter, thats cool, nothing wrong with playing it safe. Just make sure you never touch the clean end of the filter, and never wash your face in a stream - never go swimming in a pond and get your head wet. Little nasties could drip into your mouth and down into your belly.

2XL
03-11-2005, 10:21
Even pump filters can develop shortcircuits which contaminate the output. I also get the creeps when I think about my drinking water passing through a canister loaded with nastys that have been left to brood. Especially when you use it for a weeks vacation, then take it out of the closet a month later to use again.


Brings up a question I've been wondering about.
What would be the proper procedure for taking your filter out of storage?
Dismantle and wash with bleach? Buy a new filter?

The Old Fhart
03-11-2005, 10:29
Chomp-"I drank water from a drainage ditch surrounded by cow patties. I have drank standing, murky water that smelled like methane. I have drank water from a creek where free range cattle were roaming....."I always wondered why you were so wierd, and now I know! :D

Lone Wolf
03-11-2005, 10:35
Methane is odorless.

Granger
03-11-2005, 10:37
Just make sure you never touch the clean end of the filter, and never wash your face in a stream - never go swimming in a pond and get your head wet. Little nasties could drip into your mouth and down into your belly.
Chomp,
I am not trying to push using a purifier on anyone but there is a CONSIDERABLE difference between drinking 32 ozs of water from a standing dranage ditch and going swimming in a pond. :datz

:jump

-granger

Footslogger
03-11-2005, 10:39
Methane is odorless.============================
Kinda depends on it's source. Been exposed to some southbound gastrointestinal methane that would not qualify as ODORLESS ...

'Slogger

Peaks
03-11-2005, 10:41
Polarpur only works with water over 68* or so it says on the bottle. What tha heck ... so it is totally useless otherwise ?

The wording on the bottle says "To destroy Giardai cysts, drinking water must be 20 C (68 degree F) minimum."

So, presumably, Polar pur will still kill other water borne pathogens. The dosage depends on temperature. But I suspect that it also takes longer to work in cold water.

Nean
03-11-2005, 10:42
I don't filter but wont drink out of just any source. However budweiser has given me giardia on several occasions:eek:

Jack Tarlin
03-11-2005, 15:45
I just read this whole thread.....some very interesting posts.

I also think the giardia threat is greatly exaggerated, mainly by the folks who sell water filters, as well as by many of the outdoor magazines, who rely on ad revenue from these products. In other words, scaring people helps
them buy more stuff.

I agree with Peaks who felt that the personal hygiene factor is more important than the "bad water" factor.

Most hikers engage in pretty loathsome personal care practices: They are dirty all the time; their clothes, hair, and bodies go unwashed for long periods, as does their gear. They're constantly scratching themselves, picking at their feet, wearing unwashed clothes, sleeping in seldom or never-washed bags. Most important of all, they don't wash their hands, especially after taking care of personal needs. The threat of falling ill due to hand-to-mouth contamination is there all the time. Likewise, hikers' cooksets and cooking/eating utensils are also dirty. The pot scrubbers hikers use are indescribably filthy. In short, I think most folks who fall ill on the trail, especially with gastro-intestinal distress, DO NOT become sick from their drinking water, but from other causes, mainly the lack of regular contact with soap and hot water.

How, then, to stay healthier out there:

*Use some sort of filtration/purification system

*If you're using a filter, use it properly, and maintain and
clean it regularly. A clogged or contaminated filtration
device is essentially useless.

*If you're using bleach, iodine, or similar purifiers, use
them correctly. If you've bought a commercial product
(Aqua Mira, Polar Pure, etc.), make sure you read the pro-
duct information that comes with it.

*Clean all water bottles and carriers regularly, preferably
with hot water and soap. I also clean out my water bag
with warm water and baking soda regularly.

*Some brands of bottles, like Nalgenes, tend to collect all
sorts of mung in their neck-threads. Try to clean these
regularly. Good tip: If you chance to replace your tooth-
brush, before you toss the old one, use it to clean out the
necks of all your water bottles.

*Wash your hands regularly, especially after going to the
bathroom. A small plastic bottle of hand sanitizer makes
a great difference. Also, wash your body regularly,
especially your southern regions. Many folks keep a
separate bandana or small towel for this purpose only. (As
a benefit, giving yourself a light washing/scrubbing at the
end of the day with soap and hot water will reduce the
chance, or will help heal, such afflications as chafe,rashes,
Monkey Butt, and other unpleasantness).

*Be leery of sharing food with other hikers....not everyone
will practice the same level of personal hygiene as you.
So think twice before eating out of someone's cookpot or
reaching into a bag of Gorp or jerky that belongs to
someone else. Chances are, the guy hasn't washed his
hands in three or four days and may have just finished
wiping his nasty ass with a handful of leaves and grass.
Still want that Gorp or those M&M's? Didn't think so.

*Wash your cooking stuff with soap and hot water at every
available oportunity, like at hostels and motels. Wash
your pot scrubber at the same time and replace it often.

*Lastly, use common sense with your water, i.e. use extra
caution or take extra care depending on what the source
is, what the terrain is like, how high up you are, etc.
Pond water requires caution, as does water in low-lying
areas, as well as areas that are near farms or cattle. Use
caution at springs that require you "dunk" your bottle or
submerge it by hand in order to fill it up....remember
what I said above what other folks do with their hands.
If you're determined to drink some, most, or all of your
water "straight", do this wisely.

Another tip: Take advantage of every opportunity you get
to drink "town" water: If you leave town with water, and
if you avail yourself of every opportunity you get to drink
piped water (from taps, hoses, fountains, etc.) you can
greatly reduce the times you're drinking questionable
water from backcountry sources.

And finally, even if you're really careful, don't get overly
alarmed if you get some sort of short-term illness while
on the Trail. It doesn't mean you have giardia or are
deathly ill. It just means you've got some gut issues
going on, which will in all likelihood, be short-lived. After
all, how many folks go 180 consecutive days back in the
world without getting the occasional stomach problem,
brief case of the trots, etc. Your chances of getting
seriously ill while on the Trail are very small indeed, and
most folks find their trips to be one of the healthiest per-
iods of their entire lives.

Alligator
03-11-2005, 16:45
...

*Clean all water bottles and carriers regularly, preferably
with hot water and soap. I also clean out my water bag
with warm water and baking soda regularly.

I saw the suggestion about baking soda and was curious about the why, so I looked it up.

"When dissolved in water, baking soda, a mild alkali, acts like soap and can help remove grease and dirt. Its mildly abrasive qualities make baking soda an effective scouring agent as well."

Just a little bleach goes a long way toward sanitizing water bottles and bladders, I use a capful per liter. There may be a different rule of thumb. When I return from a trip, I wash everything in hot soapy water, then sanitize with the bleach. I usually let these sit for at least one night, then wash with hot water. Don't put the bleach in with hot water, as this pushes the chlorine gas out of solution (I think that is the explanation).

Regarding 2XL's storage question, I will run bleach/water solution through the filter before storing. Some filters can be frozen, but I do not know whether this is acceptable for a paper filter. But I rarely use my filter anymore, in general just Polar Pur.

Youngblood
03-11-2005, 19:12
I have a poor opinion about using pot scrubbers. Seems to me that they would just collect nasties, I just use a couple of leaves and toss them with the wash water.

Youngblood

schwenkler
03-12-2005, 01:09
I don't know if I read this brilliant idea somewhere or had it myself...

Use a piece of a rubber scraper (most people would call it a SPATULA, but I thought that's the thing you use to cook eggs). It will clean better than a scrub pad or Lexan spood, doesn't have places for stuff to collect, and you can llick it clean. Yum.
Dumping wash water and wasting the food scraps is why I wouldn't use Youngblood's method.
Weighs ~1/2 ounce.

Youngblood
03-12-2005, 11:39
I don't know if I read this brilliant idea somewhere or had it myself...

Use a piece of a rubber scraper (most people would call it a SPATULA, but I thought that's the thing you use to cook eggs). It will clean better than a scrub pad or Lexan spood, doesn't have places for stuff to collect, and you can llick it clean. Yum.
Dumping wash water and wasting the food scraps is why I wouldn't use Youngblood's method.
Weighs ~1/2 ounce.Food scraps? What you talking about, I don't leave any food scraps and I don't trash the area I cook in, thank you very much. BTW, I use my spoon very much the same way you use your spatula to pre-clean my pot while I am eating. I consume everything in the pot that will come out (which is dang near everything except for some residual film), then pour in a couple of ounces of water, get a couple of leaves, scrub the pot a little with said leaves and then find a resonable spot to do a wide area dispersal of the wash water.

Youngblood

schwenkler
03-14-2005, 00:09
Sorry, food scraps is not the right word, I meant that residual film.

I'm not attacking your method on an ecological basis or anything like that. I'd just rather keep my calories and my water. I especially wouldn't want to use rinse water if dry camping.

Another method is to rinse off the film with some water and a spoon (or a finger if necessary), then drink the rinse water.
Yum.

Youngblood
03-14-2005, 09:26
That's fine... but the original comment of mine was about the wisdom of using a pot scrubber (which is stored damp and can collect nasties) versus using leafs (which can be harmlessly discarded with each use). I think that is something that folks should consider.

When we are backpacking we are not routinely exposed to hot running water with all the soap we need. To reduce the problems associated with this compromise in hygene we need to examine some of the little things we do and use common sense in the tradeoffs involved... and sometimes these compromises involve the Leave No Trace concept. LNT is not absolute and needs to be practiced with that understanding. Personally, I try to look at the consequences of what I do and let my conscience be my guide.

Youngblood

peter_pan
03-14-2005, 10:16
Personally I've adopted a style of cooking with bags or use of dehydrated meals that only require add boiling water and eat out of the package to save the clean up and sanitation issues....yea the sodium is high, but so what once a day to a healthy hiker sweating it out.

In earlier ultra light days I use a 6 inch square of plastic netting from an orange bag, weight was so little it did not even register on my digital scale. Most importantly, it was readily shook out, rinsed in filtered water and shook again. Extremely low risk of holding grubbies...While "clean" you could even boil it with the coffee water to ensure all sanitized prior to eventual clean up use. But then, I don't use any form of detergent and drink my rinse water, best if a half cup of warmed water is used ( Just thin soup and gets every last calorie).

peter_pan
03-14-2005, 10:21
Hate to double post, but...

On reflection boiling the of the orange bag net could possible cause some plastic leaching and should not be done....please disregard that as a less than bright idea.....glad I found a way to get rid of that piece and clean up step any way. :datz

RagingHampster
03-14-2005, 14:47
I'm also trying to switch over to using 100% boil water/pour in ziplock methods. Less hassle, and smaller chance of having bits of food sour and contaminate your next meal. Cous-Cous, Idahoan Taters, Stuffing, Cream of Wheat, Soups, Instant Rice :D

The salt content is only high when you use mainstream commercial freeze-dried meals, or the seasoning packets that come with your grub. Buy the grains/dried veggies in bulk and mix your own seasonings. Its cheaper and usually tastes better. Personally I don't mind sucking down salt while hiking.

Anyone know of a place that sells beans/lentils that rehydrate fast in boiling water?

plodder
03-14-2005, 18:39
Fantastic Foods, sold at Shaw's about 5min. They are sold in bulk at the granola store. I think they're dehydrated not freeze dried, but save some water.

JoeHiker
03-15-2005, 17:45
Personally, I don't know how big or small the threat of giardia truly is and I've been fortunate enough never to have had it. But I just decided that, for me, 11-15 ounces of extra weight is not that big of a price to pay for peace of mind that a filter gives me.

I'll gladly minimize weight in a lot of ways and am always looking for more. But when it comes to anything I consume I don't mess around.

orangebug
03-15-2005, 18:25
Marketing sells another filter! :banana

Just be sure you wash your hands and never share food with others.

Panzer1
03-15-2005, 19:03
I know a young man who was dying of thirst in the woods-the stream looked so inviting but his dear old granny that he respected had always told him not to drink from it.About a 1/4 mile later he was glad that he had not given in-there was a DEAD HORSE laying in the stream there.Similar incident happened to some campers i know who went to the mountains of the NorthWest.Some scooped up water coming out from under an ice flow and drank it with great gusto.One of the group walked up above the snowbank
and told the others "Ya'll come see this"-it was a DEAD MOUNTAIN GOAT and only a few feet from where the others had been drinking.

Oldfivetango
I was hiking on the Black Forest Trail in PA one time and I stopped to get water out of a good looking mountain stream. Just before I was about to filter my water, I decided to walk upstream for about 30 feet to check out the source a little bit more and found a dead dear lying in the water....
Yikes...

Panzer

orangebug
03-15-2005, 22:32
Gosh, that story sounds so familiar. Myth?

I wonder if you filtered downstream or upstream of the road kill?

Mountain Dew
03-16-2005, 02:06
Alright, I'm going to try polarpure and if i get giardia again i'm gonna report back to this thread with great anger. :datz

SGT Rock
03-16-2005, 07:36
Hew Dew, if you do that, won't you have to add something to your pack to keep the weight up? :D

oldfivetango
03-16-2005, 09:32
I was hiking on the Black Forest Trail in PA one time and I stopped to get water out of a good looking mountain stream. Just before I was about to filter my water, I decided to walk upstream for about 30 feet to check out the source a little bit more and found a dead dear lying in the water....
Yikes...

Panzer Thanks Panzer,
I told that same story to a friend and potential hiking partner
yesterday.His comment was this"Dont worry about it-a stream cleans
itself every 100 feet".Oh yeah,he really believes it too.Since he drank
"alot worse" in Vietnam without incident he thinks untreated water is
just fine.So my comment is this-"Different strokes for different folks"
I've been sick in the woods before and the inconvenience of the filter
weight and work is worth its weight in GOLD if it prevents another one of those episodes.
Cheers,
Oldfivetango

JoeHiker
03-16-2005, 12:42
Marketing sells another filter! :banana

Just be sure you wash your hands and never share food with others.Money well spent.

Fortunately I generally do wash my hands before eating if they're going to be touching the food.

But I have no problems sharing food with others. I generally have what I need so I don't borrow very often and as for the stuff I give them, well it's not as if they're sticking in their mouths and then handing it back to me. :)

Panzer1
03-16-2005, 12:45
I am with Lone Wolf on this one - don't believe the hype.
That was back in 99, and I haven't had a problem since. I drank water from a drainage ditch surrounded by cow patties. I have drank standing, murky water that smelled like methane. I have drank water from a creek where free range cattle were roaming. Again, no problems.

I can beat that. Once on a trip I drank water from a dranage ditch comming out of a slaughter house. However, I did get sick. Was take to the hospital and 2 days later I died...

R.I.P.
Panzer

RagingHampster
03-16-2005, 13:02
I can beat that. Once on a trip I drank water from a dranage ditch comming out of a slaughter house. However, I did get sick. Was take to the hospital and 2 days later I died...

:D Hahahahaha

SGT Rock
03-16-2005, 14:34
I can beat that. Once on a trip I drank water from a dranage ditch comming out of a slaughter house. However, I did get sick. Was take to the hospital and 2 days later I died...

R.I.P.
Panzer
"And the bad part is: try telling that to kids these days, and they won't belive you!"

-Monty Python

orangebug
03-16-2005, 22:42
But I have no problems sharing food with others. I generally have what I need so I don't borrow very often and as for the stuff I give them, well it's not as if they're sticking in their mouths and then handing it back to me. :)It isn't their mouths I worry about. It is their hands that have wiped feces from their butts. Fecal / oral contamination is the most common vector for hepatitis, giardia and other GI infections. Never put your hand into community food, and never allow the community to put hands into your food.

If you chose to do so, you have absolutely no reason to treat water. You also get no sympathy while your gut cramps and the boomers erupt.

Mountain Dew
03-16-2005, 23:20
SGT. Rock, I have: mp3 player, larger knife, more clothes, but al in all my pack weight is going to be under 50 this time around with three days food + 1 liter of water.

Nightwalker
03-17-2005, 01:18
That's fine... but the original comment of mine was about the wisdom of using a pot scrubber (which is stored damp and can collect nasties) versus using leafs (which can be harmlessly discarded with each use). I think that is something that folks should consider.
Whether it's good, bad or not, my method of pot cleaning involves scrubbing out with leaves and pine needles 'til it's as clean as possible, then rinse. Since the next thing that's gonna happen is going to involve boiling water, it seems pretty sanitary.

I also like SMS's steam-cleaning method using a very small amount of water and a vigorous boil/steam. You can then just pour out the refuse. This works well, but isn't so great for long hikes when fuel is at a premium.

SGT Rock
03-17-2005, 11:38
SGT. Rock, I have: mp3 player, larger knife, more clothes, but al in all my pack weight is going to be under 50 this time around with three days food + 1 liter of water.

You might just turn Ultralight yet ;)

"Come on over to the dark side son, it'll be a HOOT!" - RedneckJedi Father to his son. :bse

JoeHiker
03-17-2005, 14:38
Never put your hand into community food, and never allow the community to put hands into your food.I generally don't do the former and I never do the latter that so it's not a problem. I understand the basics of hygiene.


If you chose to do so, you have absolutely no reason to treat water. You also get no sympathy while your gut cramps and the boomers erupt.Since I don't choose to do so, it's not really an issue now is it? Regardless, I'm surprised that I or anyone else would get "no sympathy". You must be a barrel of laughs to hike with. Your dislike of water filters is beginning to look like some sort of odd, personal crusade.

orangebug
03-17-2005, 14:42
Actually, I have no problem with folks using water filters/purifiers/bleaches. I have problems with folks thinking that they will receive much benefit from those products and procedures. I think more energy and time should be placed into toilet and cooking hygiene, than into scare mongering about water contamination.

JoeHiker
03-17-2005, 14:45
Actually, I have no problem with folks using water filters/purifiers/bleaches. I have problems with folks thinking that they will receive much benefit from those products and procedures. I think more energy and time should be placed into toilet and cooking hygiene, than into scare mongering about water contamination."Scare Mongering"? Well I'm glad to hear it's not some sort of personal cause or anything.

Tell you what, I'll use the filter and good hygiene. Actually that's redundant as, to me, using a filter is a part of good hygiene. Like washing your hands.

The Old Fhart
03-17-2005, 15:43
Chomp posted earlier that he drank untreated out of muddy puddles-yuk! In a rather dry section I did filter water from a tire rut in a dirt road I ran across, figuring it was mainly rain water, and it tasted quite good. You know how they speak of certain wines having a good year, well this water tasted like Goodyear. :)

About 1990 I was heading south through Mahoosuc Notch and was told by the NOBOs that there was a dead moose in the notch. They didn’t have to tell me because I knew that from ¼ mile away. The moose had fallen in the rocks and broken a leg so all they could do was kill it and let nature take its course. Someone had stuck a cigarette in the animal’s mouth and it kind of looked like Joe Camel. I don’t think I’d want to drink the water downstream from there.

In 2003, north of Pearisburg, I was going to get water from the stream beside the trail but decided to wait until I got higher. A few minutes up the trail I found a half-rotten carcass of a goat, calf, or something, in the water-glad I waited.

Bottom line is there is always a chance some water could be contaminated. There is a chance some of this contaminated water could make you sick. Looking at the water and saying: “this water looks ok” isn’t the best way to check for micro-organisms. I have seen wells and springs that were posted as contaminated so there is no guarantee that water coming out of a piped spring is ok. The probability of getting sick from a water source is relatively slim but the consequences can be great. Basically you are going to be exposed to the possibility of contaminated water every day you are on the trail. I personally choose to filter my water, take great care not to contaminate the filter, and pay attention to personal hygiene like using soap or hand sanitizer. There are no guarantees but I feel I have improved my chances.

An analogy I’d use is walking along and finding a unwrapped sandwich laying on the dirt in the middle of the trail. I’m going to leave that sandwich for the next hiker. :)

Mountain Dew
03-17-2005, 17:03
That's it !!! I'm taking my filter now.

oldfivetango
03-17-2005, 18:13
Actually, I have no problem with folks using water filters/purifiers/bleaches. I have problems with folks thinking that they will receive much benefit from those products and procedures. I think more energy and time should be placed into toilet and cooking hygiene, than into scare mongering about water contamination. Heard this on PAul Harvey-not sure of the EXACT statistic but old
Paul reported that about 30% of MEDICAL DOCTORS don't wash their
hands after attending to calls of nature.And they wonder why hospitals are full of staff infections?.Do your own research folks- next time you are in a public restroom count ten people and see how many "wash-up" after.Trust me- you will be shocked if you were taught proper procedure as a child.Also,am I some sort of freak because i don't appreciate friends of mine not "washing-up" when they are the self-appointed camp chef?No more cookouts with people like that for this old boy.
It's a heck of a note that any modern person does not stop to consider the
role of sanitation after what we know today about germs,viruses,and bacteria.The gel is available most anywhere now and carries easily in the pocket.It lasts quite awhile and is real convenient.And as far as gorp goes-
pouring your gorp into a container of some sort is WAY more sanitary than
continually poking your just licked fingers into the rest of your supply;effectively innoculating it with bacteria from your mouth and Lord knows what else that was on your hands.
As for water-it may look real good but you do NOT know what is in it.If you
want to drink water from a spring that an animal crapped in-have at it folks-it's a free country.If the thought makes you uncomfortable then you
can join the filter and treat crowd.Here's to your health.
Cheers,
Oldfivetango:)

orangebug
03-17-2005, 23:30
...And they wonder why hospitals are full of staff infections?...Was that a joke or did you mean Staph infections? If you meant that, hand washing from toileting isn't particularly effective in preventing nosocomial infections of staph. Hand washing between patient encounters is far more effective and efficient regarding Staph or strept.

That is why most hospitals have latex gloves, alcohol gel and wash basins in each room. Personally, I'd be much more concerned that your doc uses latex gloves than with believing Paul Harvey anecdotes.

smokymtnsteve
03-17-2005, 23:41
I would like my doc to wash his hands after using the restroom, :rolleyes:

I never let a vampire (phelbotomist) touch me without latex gloves,,, :dance

I hug my pycho supplier without protection all the time... :eek:

of course she is cute and worth the risk ;)

orangebug
03-18-2005, 06:52
It bothers me to see that fast food workers must be reminded to wash their hands after toileting. Somehow, I don't believe a "maybe" Paul Harvey anecdote. I know what sort of infections are associated with fecal oral vectors.

The anecdotes offered on this thread suggests that the AT is littered with dead and dying animals, seeking the purest streams for their ancient dying grounds, observed by careless physicians carrying typhoid to the masses while water treatment marketers count their commissions. If you need to carry that hype with you, have fun!

The Old Fhart
03-18-2005, 08:27
orangebug-“The anecdotes offered on this thread suggests that the AT is littered with dead and dying animals,…..”My stating that I’ve found 2 dead animals in a dozen years hardly suggest that the “AT is littered” with carcasses. To be fair, the anecdotal evidence that streams are pure (like in the Coor’s ads) is totally lacking. When have you ever seen a sign that said drink without treating? The facts are that open unprotected water along the A.T. is not tested for potability-period. All I’ve said, and I think the other poster’s have said as well, is that you should exercise the same care with your drinking water that you’d apply to other personal hygiene issues.

Let me stress what I said in a previous post:
“Bottom line is there is always a chance some water could be contaminated. There is a chance some of this contaminated water could make you sick. Looking at the water and saying: “this water looks ok” isn’t the best way to check for micro-organisms. I have seen wells and springs that were posted as contaminated so there is no guarantee that water coming out of a piped spring is ok. The probability of getting sick from a water source is relatively slim but the consequences can be great. Basically you are going to be exposed to the possibility of contaminated water every day you are on the trail. I personally choose to filter my water, take great care not to contaminate the filter, and pay attention to personal hygiene like using soap or hand sanitizer. There are no guarantees but I feel I have improved my chances.”

skeletor
08-02-2005, 08:25
Hey y'all.... I have worked for a small town in NC close to RDU airport. I started in the water department, and now work in the engineering department. listen to oldfivetango. there are alot of nasty things that can live in water. I see all kinds of water pollution every day and you would be suprised to find out just what goes right back into that nice "Clean" spring

That's why once a month the water guy takes samples to the lab to have them tested. That's why the water plant operator treats the water chemically to make sure that you don't get the "cooties"

I inspect new water lines that are installed in the brand new neighborhoods and before they are allowed to tap into the brand new water line they have to use chlorinated water to clean the pipes; then I take a sample of that water to the lab. they test it for fecal coliform and also total coliform. You can get intestinal parasites from untreated water as well as diseases.

I have hiked in the mountains of NC plenty of times. I always carry my filter and I also carry a small bottle of bleach. Chlorine kills everything or so "they" say; two small drops into a 1 liter bottle will chemically treat the "cooties" away. wait for 30 minutes and then the water is safe to drink. IMO I don't want to wait that 30 min.

If you are concerned about weight and you want to use products like "sweet water" look at the active ingredients(sp) you'll find the same thing in the bottle of chlorox in you laundry room and it is alot cheaper.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-02-2005, 08:55
I've been hiking for decades - long before backpacking filters were around. I hate the taste of iodine and used some sort of oxygen-releasing tablets you had to ask for at the pharmacy before I found a lower-tech, but easily accomplished method.

I have used this sytem (similar to RagingHampster's system) for years without any problem - I collect my water in the largest pot I have with me. I let the water set for about ten minutes for any sand, leaves etc to settle to the bottom and any critters like those described by Lilredmg . I carefully pour the water into a plastic or naglene bottle and add 3 drops of bleach per liter. If the water source is really questionable (lots of evidence of heavy animal or human use), I boil the water and then add bleach. I have stained water through a bandana.

I never gather water from scum ponds or where cattle are known to be above. That is asking for a trip to the ER.

justusryans
08-02-2005, 19:11
If you strain your water through a bandanna, coffee filter, camp towel, ect and then boil it ... nothing else is necessary. Boiling will kill everything! The only thing boiling won't do is make chemically polluted water clean.

The Hog
08-02-2005, 19:18
Under the right circumstances, chlorine bleach is effective against a number of waterborne pathogens. Unfortunately, research has shown that it might actually HELP cryptosporidia emerge from cysts. For this reason, I would not rely on chlorine or any other halogen (ie iodine) alone for water treatment.

Cryptosporidium is an intestinal parasite that is widespread and can (and does) cause serious illness. In 1993, a cryptosporidium outbreak in Milwaukee sickened over 400,000 people and killed 100, according to CNN.