Any suggestions for inexpensive long underwear/base layer?

[Sarcasm the elf]

I went to my outfitter today to pick up a new set of mid to heavy weight base layer thermals and I'm still recovering from sticker shock after looking at the prices on smart wool, calpine and other major brands. I searched around online and there's a huge variation in price among brands (no surprise) does anyone have suggestions for less expensive brands that hold up to winter backpacking?

A couple of related questions:

I've seen a lot of posts from the more experienced winter backpackers on the site stating that that they use silk as a base layer. Does the silk base layer take place of heavier long underwear? If so, does it provide warmth or is it just for wicking?

What do people use for layering systems for pants in the winter? The last few years I've been making due with my regular nylon zip pants and a heavier pair of thermal underwear, but this has left a lot to be desired and I think it's time I make an upgrade.

[Stir Fry]

Just go to Walmart there similar type items will be under $20. It will not be the same quality as Smart wool. It won't be as light eather. But we are talking oz's. No more then 5 oz per item.

[JAK]

Excellent questions. Much worth discussing here.

For layering I find everything works more or less equally well for its weight, so it's really just a matter of using layers that add up to the coldest you might expect on a trip, nest well together without compressing, and have the qualities you are looking for in terms of either absorbing moisture like good wool, or repelling water like good polyester. I like a combination of both in winter, with maybe 2 of 3 top layers being wool, and 1 of 2 bottom layers being wool. The trick to keeping wool dry, so it works within its comfortable range of absorbing moisture and giving it up, is to use the wool closer to the body, and to use it as the layers that stay on. The total system needs to add up to about 1 ounce per degree F below about 85F or 90F, not counting footwear and wind or rain shells, but including socks, mitts, hats. So in winter there is quite a difference between say 20F as the coldest, or -20F as the coldest, depending on the month and where you are hiking. I like to be prepared for the coldest on record for that month, rather than the weather forecast, unless it is a very short trip. For 20F I would need about 4 pounds of layers, and for -20F I would need about 6.5 pounds of layers, which gets very tricky for it not to be too cumbersome. Nothing shoud be compressed. Things should be just snug, and when you delayer for warmer conditions things can even be loose so it can breathe and dry out better. Also, when you layer up for the coldest you should have more or less even layers everywhere, but when you delayer you can delayer unevenly, because you have to carry the weight either way. Shells usually come off first. They perform quite differently at -20F vs 20F, because of icing. I like very light nylon shells. Waterproofed for rain, and not waterproofed for a wind layer. The wind layer is very useful when it is very cold as it can ice up and become more wind proof when it is very cold, but be more breathable when it needs to be. Also, you can take it off and put it on very easily as it so light and can just stuff in any pocket. Fleece also works great as an outer layer over wool because it will also ice up some when its extremely cold, but breath and ventilate when it is not so cold or when your body heats it up some. So in general I go with fleece over wool over wool as my top layers, and fleece over wool and/or polyester as my bottom layers. When it is extremely cold I bring my Stanfield's long wool underwear and a set of silk tops and bottoms. I try and keep the long wool underwear in reserve as sleepwear, but when it gets cold enough to bring them out and keep them on if they stay dry I can still use them as sleep wear. The silk are thin and light enough that they can actually fit in under the wool as a fourth layer on top or third layer on bottom, but only for the extreme, when stationary or moving very slow to conserve energy. Getting equal layers on your legs for the extreme can be tricky. I made a set of fleece shorts out of pants, and they are useful for giving that third layer above the knee, while a set of long socks can provide that third layer below the knee.


1. Does anyone have suggestions for less expensive brands that hold up to winter backpacking?

For my top layers, I use 200wt fleece with pouch, medium wool sweater, thin wool sweater or long wool underwear, and silk extra layer, if it might be cold enough for all that. Otherwise 200wt fleece, light or medium wool sweater, and thin wool t-shirt. Ideally, one of those layers will also have a hood to integrate better with head gear. For bottom layers, I use some combination of 200wt fleece oversized shorts, 200wt fleece pants, long wool underwear, flannelly polyester tights or silk tights. Tights should not be too tight below the thigh. They should just barely cling. They can. be a little more snug above the thigh. All of the above stuff should be findable on sale. The secret is to make do with what you have until you find what you need on sale, and not buy what you don't need just because its on sale. It's best to get wool layers oversized so as to be loose. If they shrink a little, they might still be useful as a skin layer, but when loose they still work great as skin layers or mid layers when a fleece outer layer is worn over them, and loose is better for ventilation when you peel the fleece layer off.

2. Does the silk base layer take place of heavier long underwear?
I think everything performs the same, ounce for ounce, as long as it is good quality and it fits properly and nests well with all your other layers. It only needs to perform at its best when you are wearing everything, for the most extreme conditions, because when you are delayering and it performs best it just means you have to delayer more. So silk is mostly useful simply because you can get it really thin, so it can be sort of like 1/2 a layer, which is sometimes just enough to allow you to leave something heavier home, or to bring and wear as a 3rd and a half layer in extreme conditions and it still work with being compressed or compressing another layer from undereath. So I think the answer is no. An ounce of layering is an ounce of layer, as long as it fits in.

3. If so, does it provide warmth or is it just for wicking?
Silk is for warmth, as long as it fits in. Wicking is a bit of a misconception in my opinion. The most important thing is that insulating layers either have a good range of water absorption, while still repelling it some, like wool, or to repel water and absorb as little as possible while still being fluffy, like good polyester. Silk is a little like both. Water absorption, without feeling damp, allows you to temporarily recover the latent heat from the moisture leaving your skin, and then give up that moisture and heat when you are in warmer or more active conditions, or direct sunlight or fire warmth, as long as you provide some wind or ventilation. Wool works excellent for that, but it works best if you have polyester layers also, which you can take off even if they are damp, so you can keep the wool on and let it dry out. Silk is a little like both, but as a skin layer, they all work very similar because they are so thin, even flannelly polyester. I don't like body armour type skin layers for cold weather. Layers need to be flannely or wooly. Wool is the best skin layer, except in conditions where you might not want to wear your skin layer most of the time. In those conditions synthetics are better because you can toss them around and not worry about them getting wet. If they freeze, just beat the heck out of them on a rock to get most of the ice out.

4. What do people use for layering systems for pants in the winter?
200wt fleece pants, or 200 wt fleece shorts with some sort of tights underneath, most of the time.

5. The last few years I've been making due with my regular nylon zip pants and a heavier pair of thermal underwear, but this has left a lot to be desired and I think it's time I make an upgrade.
I bring nylon rain pants, for extremes, but would like to try something even lighter and more breathable, like my nylon wind shell. Not sure I would bring both though. For pants, one shell is enough, and it might as well be a rain shell, as long as it is light enough. Fleece can act as a snow shell if it is cold enough.

[bamboo bob]

Good info, thanks. There are many things that work but for the lightest warmest you must spend money. If you are willing to give a bit on weight you can do nicely. I was most comfortable in my rag wool sweater but it sure was heavy.

[JAK]

Excellent questions. Much worth discussing here.

For layering I find everything works more or less equally well for its weight, so it's really just a matter of using layers that add up to the coldest you might expect on a trip, nest well together without compressing, and have the qualities you are looking for in terms of either absorbing moisture like good wool, or repelling water like good polyester. I like a combination of both in winter, with maybe 2 of 3 top layers being wool, and 1 of 2 bottom layers being wool. The trick to keeping wool dry, so it works within its comfortable range of absorbing moisture and giving it up, is to use the wool closer to the body, and to use it as the layers that stay on. The total system needs to add up to about 1 ounce per degree F below about 85F or 90F, not counting footwear and wind or rain shells, but including socks, mitts, hats. So in winter there is quite a difference between say 20F as the coldest, or -20F as the coldest, depending on the month and where you are hiking. I like to be prepared for the coldest on record for that month, rather than the weather forecast, unless it is a very short trip. For 20F I would need about 4 pounds of layers, and for -20F I would need about 6.5 pounds of layers, which gets very tricky for it not to be too cumbersome. Nothing shoud be compressed. Things should be just snug, and when you delayer for warmer conditions things can even be loose so it can breathe and dry out better. Also, when you layer up for the coldest you should have more or less even layers everywhere, but when you delayer you can delayer unevenly, because you have to carry the weight either way. Shells usually come off first. They perform quite differently at -20F vs 20F, because of icing. I like very light nylon shells. Waterproofed for rain, and not waterproofed for a wind layer. The wind layer is very useful when it is very cold as it can ice up and become more wind proof when it is very cold, but be more breathable when it needs to be. Also, you can take it off and put it on very easily as it so light and can just stuff in any pocket. Fleece also works great as an outer layer over wool because it will also ice up some when its extremely cold, but breath and ventilate when it is not so cold or when your body heats it up some. So in general I go with fleece over wool over wool as my top layers, and fleece over wool and/or polyester as my bottom layers. When it is extremely cold I bring my Stanfield's long wool underwear and a set of silk tops and bottoms. I try and keep the long wool underwear in reserve as sleepwear, but when it gets cold enough to bring them out and keep them on if they stay dry I can still use them as sleep wear. The silk are thin and light enough that they can actually fit in under the wool as a fourth layer on top or third layer on bottom, but only for the extreme, when stationary or moving very slow to conserve energy. Getting equal layers on your legs for the extreme can be tricky. I made a set of fleece shorts out of pants, and they are useful for giving that third layer above the knee, while a set of long socks can provide that third layer below the knee.


1. Does anyone have suggestions for less expensive brands that hold up to winter backpacking?

For my top layers, I use 200wt fleece with pouch, medium wool sweater, thin wool sweater or long wool underwear, and silk extra layer, if it might be cold enough for all that. Otherwise 200wt fleece, light or medium wool sweater, and thin wool t-shirt. Ideally, one of those layers will also have a hood to integrate better with head gear. For bottom layers, I use some combination of 200wt fleece oversized shorts, 200wt fleece pants, long wool underwear, flannelly polyester tights or silk tights. Tights should not be too tight below the thigh. They should just barely cling. They can. be a little more snug above the thigh. All of the above stuff should be findable on sale. The secret is to make do with what you have until you find what you need on sale, and not buy what you don't need just because its on sale. It's best to get wool layers oversized so as to be loose. If they shrink a little, they might still be useful as a skin layer, but when loose they still work great as skin layers or mid layers when a fleece outer layer is worn over them, and loose is better for ventilation when you peel the fleece layer off.

2. Does the silk base layer take place of heavier long underwear?
I think everything performs the same, ounce for ounce, as long as it is good quality and it fits properly and nests well with all your other layers. It only needs to perform at its best when you are wearing everything, for the most extreme conditions, because when you are delayering and it performs best it just means you have to delayer more. So silk is mostly useful simply because you can get it really thin, so it can be sort of like 1/2 a layer, which is sometimes just enough to allow you to leave something heavier home, or to bring and wear as a 3rd and a half layer in extreme conditions and it still work with being compressed or compressing another layer from undereath. So I think the answer is no. An ounce of layering is an ounce of layer, as long as it fits in.

3. If so, does it provide warmth or is it just for wicking?
Silk is for warmth, as long as it fits in. Wicking is a bit of a misconception in my opinion. The most important thing is that insulating layers either have a good range of water absorption, while still repelling it some, like wool, or to repel water and absorb as little as possible while still being fluffy, like good polyester. Silk is a little like both. Water absorption, without feeling damp, allows you to temporarily recover the latent heat from the moisture leaving your skin, and then give up that moisture and heat when you are in warmer or more active conditions, or direct sunlight or fire warmth, as long as you provide some wind or ventilation. Wool works excellent for that, but it works best if you have polyester layers also, which you can take off even if they are damp, so you can keep the wool on and let it dry out. Silk is a little like both, but as a skin layer, they all work very similar because they are so thin, even flannelly polyester. I don't like body armour type skin layers for cold weather. Layers need to be flannely or wooly. Wool is the best skin layer, except in conditions where you might not want to wear your skin layer most of the time. In those conditions synthetics are better because you can toss them around and not worry about them getting wet. If they freeze, just beat the heck out of them on a rock to get most of the ice out.

4. What do people use for layering systems for pants in the winter?
200wt fleece pants, or 200 wt fleece shorts with some sort of tights underneath, most of the time.

5. The last few years I've been making due with my regular nylon zip pants and a heavier pair of thermal underwear, but this has left a lot to be desired and I think it's time I make an upgrade.
I bring nylon rain pants, for extremes, but would like to try something even lighter and more breathable, like my nylon wind shell. Not sure I would bring both though. For pants, one shell is enough, and it might as well be a rain shell, as long as it is light enough. Fleece can act as a snow shell if it is cold enough.

[Wise Old Owl]

Silk is popular for being a natural thread - it has a light smell and holds your funk - but some love it...

The Walmart answer is great for going right now and getting the thick wicking hunters socks from the sports department - its seasonal and if you miss it, you have to wait a year - but they are smart wool without the price.

Campmor has quality Under Armor polypro wicking and retaining heat thermals - rule- you get what you pay for applies - you want the one without cotton.

Here is an idea - but look around...
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___47112

[rmitchell]

Check sierra trading post online.

[Jim Adams]

Check sierra trading post online.


ditto, the sierra stuff works...does retain odors but works at a great price. I don't use it for hiking...I am stuck on wool but I do use it for hunting and it works great. Is there a difference in quality YES...I won't hike in anything but wool no matter what the cost...YES IT IS THAT MUCH BETTER, but the items that sierra sales will certainly do the job.
just my opinion but put up with the odor retention and go hiking...that is the reason you need them in the first place. Have fun.
geek

[Skidsteer]

Indera brand can be found at Kmart and are just fine if you're on a budget.

They are a wool-polyester mix.

http://m.northerntool.com/northerntool/product/detail.do?itemId=975500S

[JAK]

Here is what I like to pay...
Silk, top and bottoms, just to have a set to try and mix and match = $20 a piece, on sale.
Polyester, top quality that is fluffy but non water absorbing = $10 to $20 a piece depending on weight.
Light or Medium Wool sweaters, as cheap as $5 at used thrift stores, and I will go as high as $40 for top quality new.
For a hand knit medium or heavy wool sweater of top quality, I will go $100 to $150, but rarely can afford them.
I got my Stanfields Long Underwear, combis with trap door, 100% merino wool, 20oz, for $35 at factory in Truro NS.
For socks I buy mostly wool dress socks, for under $5 a piece, and up to $10 for medium smart wool on sale.
I will also buy hand knit wool socks and mitts and hats and will go up to $20 for those items, top quality wool.

[Wise Old Owl]

Good Find Skidsteer!

JAK - what is with the wool sweaters? - fleece pullovers can out perform wool by weight and warmth - because the fibers that trap air close to the body are are smaller and lighter.

Wool is a old man thing. - Cardigan.

[JAK]

I don't like zippers on my wool or fleece. I have a 200wt fleece pullover with a pouch, and plastic buttons instead of a zipper. It's the one from L.L.Beans. Black. It is awesome, and I love the pouch. A hood would be nice. It weighs 16.4oz.

I have a variety of wool tops, from a 5.4oz t-shirt, to a 38oz heavy alpaca sweater. Pound for pound I find it all about the same, wool or fleece, when used as part of a system, but I think the combination of wool and fleece together best of all. The secret with wool is to let it work, absorbing moisture and giving it up, but you have to have a system for it to give it up. Wool is warmer than polyester, for the same weight, but only if it is good quality, and is slowly absorbing body moisture. The catch22 is that it must later give up that moisture. Sunny days work best, but any dry day or night will do, even if really cold. Works best to leave the damp wool on, and take the damp fleece and other synthetics off. Then beat the ice out of the synthetics once frozen. If above freezing, and stuff is wet, wring it out, then put it on if its wool, and dry out the synthetics later after the wool is dry. Fire can speed things up but usually isn't neccessary unless you really got soaked, or fall in a stream, or through the ice. It can happen.

Good wool is very manageable though. Some wool is best for wet conditions. It is usually a british wool, and feels a little more crisp. It can absorb moisture, but not as much as a softer wool or one that has felted. It will dry fast, but while it is drying it will still keep you warm. You can wring it out if you get totally soaked, and then let your body heat do the rest. Still, you don't want all your layers to be wool. Just the stuff you intend to keep on most or all of the time. Generally the only wool I like to take off is hats and mitts and extra socks. Socks can be dried by wearing them as mitts.

Not a big fan of rag wool, or felted wool. It is heavier for its loft, and absorbs too much moisture, and does not dry quickly. The best wool is new wool, not recycled wool. When sweaters get old, and worn, and felted, they are really best thrown away, or recycled into a rug or something like that, but not a sweater or socks or mitts. Rag wool is only warm because it is heavy, and only when it is dry.

Hand knit sweaters, and socks, and mitts, from top quality wool like Briggs and Little. Awesome.
I have a hand knit medium sweater, and it is same weight as the 200 wt fleece, and it is warmer, but only when comparing both under a wind layer. Without the wind layer the fleece is warmer, but that's not neccessarily a good thing. The wool is better because it is cooler and better ventilated when worn alone, and warmer when worn with something under and a wind layer, or fleece over. Wool is better, just as fleece is sometimes better, but both are best only when used in combination with other materials and shells, as part of a system.

[skinewmexico]

Walmart or Terramar from STP. A base layer shouldn't cost the same as a car payment. You can pay a ton for a label.

[Mother Natures Son]

You might want to check out military surplus. Sportsman Guide sells Coolmax long underwear shirts or bottoms at $19.97 for TWO!!! Silk long underwear for $29.97. (top or bottom) www.sportsmanguide.com (http://www.sportsmanguide.com) Not everything they sell can be used for hiking (cotton kills) but a lot can be used with great success.

[Mags]

FWIW, I hiked all my long trails with the least expensive long underwear I could find.

I've had excellent luck with the Teramar. One shirt lasted 3+ yrs (including a CDT and a Colorado Trail hike) and it is my long underwear bottom layer of choice currently for 3+ season hiking.

[10-K]

Keep an eye on Steep and Cheap as well.

[fiddlehead]

And of course, don't forget The Underwear Guys.
http://theunderwearguys.com/product_info.php?cPath=52&products_id=260

(http://theunderwearguys.com/product_info.php?cPath=52&products_id=260)

[Summit]

And of course, don't forget The Underwear Guys.
http://theunderwearguys.com/product_info.php?cPath=52&products_id=260

(http://theunderwearguys.com/product_info.php?cPath=52&products_id=260)Hey, I've been meaning to thank you for posting this link a couple of years ago:

http://www.theunderwearguys.com/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=218

I got a pair and have been using them and loving them. I did find that inserting a pair of shoe inserts in them makes them excellent! Without inserts, it's like walking barefooted, but with them I walk all over the place around camp and have had quite a few compliments . . . although my best hiking buddy has labeled them my "Elton John" shoes! :) Even with shoe inserts (most folks buy high quality shoe inserts so you can use the ones that come in your shoes), they weigh almost nothing. Leave those heavy crocs at home!

[Summit]

Forgot to mention, they are very durable as well. I've been using mine for a dozen or so 4-7 day hikes and they show no sign of wearing out. This is amazing considering the terrain I've been walking around in them on!!!

[azb]

I've found Merino wool baselayers at the salvation army store for as little as $1.50. Polypropylene works great and is cheap, but it smells pretty bad pretty quickly. Silk is not really as warm, it works better on days where it might warm up during the day, although wool regulates temp changes well too. Az

[JAK]

I just scored a new extra fine merino wool sweater from our local Thrift Store, Value Village, for $6. It has a Kirkland label on it, so its originally from Cosco. 10.7oz in XL. Great baselayer for this winter, and to wear every day around town. Also got a waterproof nylon wind/rain shell, anorak type. Red Ralph Lauren Polo Sport. Very packable. Has a hood, and a full pouch, 1/4 zip, and draw string at the waist. 6.2oz in XL, also for $6. Also, a pair of 60% wool, 40% nylon dress socks for $1.50 and a freaky pair of fleece mitts with extra long sleeves for $3, made in Bedford MA.

[fiddlehead]

Hey, I've been meaning to thank you for posting this link a couple of years ago:

http://www.theunderwearguys.com/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=218

I got a pair and have been using them and loving them. I did find that inserting a pair of shoe inserts in them makes them excellent! Without inserts, it's like walking barefooted, but with them I walk all over the place around camp and have had quite a few compliments . . . although my best hiking buddy has labeled them my "Elton John" shoes! :) Even with shoe inserts (most folks buy high quality shoe inserts so you can use the ones that come in your shoes), they weigh almost nothing. Leave those heavy crocs at home!

Maybe next time, ask for the camo or black colored ones. Your friends will call you Ted Nugent instead of Elton John. LOL
Thanks Summit.

[Snowleopard]

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/mens-underwear-and-base-layer~d~155/.
I've liked the synthetic stuff I've gotten from STP, Wickers comfortrel works well for me, and I've used other brands that were on sale and they worked well. You'll need to figure out a layering system that works for you. For me, midweight or expedition weight is what I use in winter.

Wool is fine but more expensive. I like silk less but it works for some people.

[MissPak]

jcpenney has left over BVD thermal base layers on clearance for like $10. Maybe they'll still have them at your penneys!

[ljcsov]

Check Marshalls / TJ Max. I have picked up terrarmar and marmot products there for $10 or less.

[mudhead]

Sizing is an issue for me. LLBean has medium Tall and I actually sprung for the mid and expedition weight bottoms last August. If the E weight had a knit cuff, they would be the perfect bottoms, for me.

Worth every penny.

[RetroGear]

Good info and advice, especially this, which applies to everything, not just clothing:



The secret is to make do with what you have until you find what you need on sale, and not buy what you don't need just because its on sale.

[mereditter]

I own a couple of Layer Bottom from ColdPruf long underwear. The black fleece-like stuff is the warmest. It's biggest drawback is that is has a somewhat "tacky" feel to it, and pulls the hair on your legs the wrong way. This makes them itch if you're wearing them for long periods. The dark blue long underwear are less warm than the black. The brown ones are lightest. I bought them a few years ago, they may have changed the colors on me since then, tell him to be governed by weight outside of the fleece looking stuff. NONE of them are suitable for outdoor work in January up there, worn under a suit. Under a set of Carhartts, yes. Tell him to cheer up, it only gets down around -30 every couple years. Mostly it gets down around -10 to -20 for a week or so then warms back up to a low of 0 to -10.

[mereditter]

I found this underwear thanks to a review site in article "Best Men’s and Women’s Underwear (https://bestreviewsbase.com/best-underwear/)", here you can even order a review for any products that you need, cool as for me.

[TTT]

You might want to look at the Norwegian Helly Hansen base layers... even official Finnish sports teams use them and they know a thing or two about winter. (and a little about ice hockey) The Odin top (warm) has a polypropylene fabric that wicks faster than polyester, with merino wool sewn in, and fits like a glove. I use 2 pairs of the standard HH bottoms which can be worn single or doubled up. They very light and pack well with longevity. The top has a 1/4 zip and a high collar that negates the need for a buff. It's long length fits deep into your pants. They also dry super quick. A smart design all around.

[TTT]

The Patagonia 1/4 zip hoody is another option although it takes an eternity to dry when wet. I plan to sleep in it with stretchy fleece pants. My preference leans towards the HH without a hood as I have a splendid Ray Mears wool and possum beanie :) The warmest "base layer" top I have is a Nike running l/s top but have sadly decided to leave it behind.

[Ethesis]

Costco and Wal-Mart just got their winter fleece layers in.

[kestral]

Bought a great new looking Marino wool men's large for $5 at local thrift store. Meant to make a dog coat but it was so nice I sent it to my son. Turns out the tag was Valentino and worth more than I would ever spend on a wool sweater. Folks seem to dump their warm clothes when they move to Florida.

Drop into thrift stores when you travel, kind of like playing the lottery.

[grubbster]

Costco and Wal-Mart just got their winter fleece layers in.
Hopefully Sam's Club is getting theirs soon. They had some nice wool last year.

[Cheyou]

https://www.uniqlo.com/us/en/men/heattech-collection

[egilbe]

I hope in the last six years the OP found he underwear he was looking for. Zombie thread revival.

[nsherry61]

I hope in the last six years the OP found he underwear he was looking for. Zombie thread revival.
Maybe more immortal than zombie. Even if old, this is a useful question, often with different answers every year.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I hope in the last six years the OP found he underwear he was looking for. Zombie thread revival.

Don't worry, I got it dialed in! :D

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