What's the Best Gas for Cold Weather?

[hikin_jim]

OK, I need some gas for some cold weather trips. So, I bopped into REI. Hey, wait a minute. This gas is 75% butane and that one is 65% isobutane and this one over here is three gasses. What the heck?? How is anybody supposed to know which one is gonna work for cold weather? And what the dickens are these blends all about anyway?

All important questions if you're headed out in cold weather. I try to answer them all in two posts on my blog:
What's the Best Gas for Cold Weather? (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/11/whats-best-brand-of-gas-for-cold.html)
Why blended gas? Why not just use propane? (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/11/why-not-just-use-propane.html)

HJ

[bobqzzi]

So really, the pure propane cannisters are best if you don't mind the weight.

[hikin_jim]

So really, the pure propane cannisters are best if you don't mind the weight.For cold weather, yes the best gas is 100% propane if you can stand the weight and bulk. Personally, I'd just switch to white gasoline or kerosene rather than carry those big heavy steel propane cylinders, but that's me.

HJ

[Guy]

"Cold weather" is subjective. My personal gauge of what makes for it is if I have to take measures to make sure that my water doesn't freeze overnight.

Above 30 F it doesn't matter very much. Any fuel will get you through the day.

Between 20 F and 30 F some canister _stoves_ are still pretty good, but that's a function of the stoves regulator not the fuel.

Once you get below 20 F, canister fuel really gets inefficient. If your looking to melt snow for water, white gas is the best fuel for the job.

[Tinker]

More propane is better. Liquid fuel (white gas, Coleman fuel, etc.) is best for cold weather.
Before using your iso/propane canister, warm it up under your jacket. It will vaporize better. You can also put a glove warmer packet underneath it, but the chemical packets themselves take time to get warm, so you need to plan ahead. Using a windscreen will help to keep the canister warmer while you are using your stove. Make sure that the canister is never hot to the touch, no matter how cold the weather. I've used windscreens with my canister stove in the fall (right around freezing) and have never had the canister get hot, but be careful using anything not recommended by the stove manufacturer.

[hikin_jim]

Above 30 F it doesn't matter very much. Any fuel will get you through the day. Guy, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Butane liquefies at 31F, and even at temperatures in the mid 30's F where it will vaporize, butane vaporization is so insipid that you're not going to have enough pressure to run most stoves. Since a lot of brands contain butane, you need to keep the fuel temperature above 40F in order to have good results with all brands.


Between 20 F and 30 F some canister _stoves_ are still pretty good, but that's a function of the stoves regulator not the fuel.Um, no not really. Take a Coleman Xtreme stove for example. Coleman rates it as operating down to -4F. That's purely a function of it's 35% propane content fuel. Physics trumps any type of valve. No valve can control pressure that isn't there. The amount of pressure available is a function of a) the physical chemistry of the gasses in the canister, b) the temperature, and c) the ambient pressure.


Once you get below 20 F, canister fuel really gets inefficient. Again, no, not really. If you use the canister upside down (assuming you have a stove that can handle it), you can run a gas stoves very well down into the single digits.

You might want to check out this article in Seattle Backpacker's Magazine: Stoves for Cold Weather II (http://seattlebackpackersmagazine.com/2011/04/01/stoves-for-cold-weather-ii/).

HJ

[max patch]

I use a SVEA 123. I don't have no gas worries.

[Tinker]

I use a SVEA 123. I don't have no gas worries.

WHAT???.......I can't HEAR you over your STOVE!!!!! :D :) ;)

Great stove, even if it is heavy (compared to the new stuff), noisy, and has a small fuel tank. Most hikers don't cook gourmet style, anyhow. It's probably one of the only stoves that can be preheated by holding in your hot little hands (or peeing on it :eek: - hearsay, of course). Brass is cool!

[Feral Bill]

I use a SVEA 123. I don't have no gas worries. Nor any others in the stove department, I am quite sure.

[hikin_jim]

More propane is better. Liquid fuel (white gas, Coleman fuel, etc.) is best for cold weather.
Before using your iso/propane canister, warm it up under your jacket. It will vaporize better. You can also put a glove warmer packet underneath it, but the chemical packets themselves take time to get warm, so you need to plan ahead. Using a windscreen will help to keep the canister warmer while you are using your stove. Make sure that the canister is never hot to the touch, no matter how cold the weather. I've used windscreens with my canister stove in the fall (right around freezing) and have never had the canister get hot, but be careful using anything not recommended by the stove manufacturer. Very well said, and the warnings are all well taken.


More propane is better. Well, yes and no. Generally more propane is better, but say you have two blends as follows
A) 30% propane, 70% butane
B) 20% propane, 80% isobutane
Which is the better blend? Well, for the majority of canister stoves, the blend with less propane (blend "B") is actually going to be the better choice. Remember that as you canister empties, the propane is used up at a faster rate. Toward the end of your canister, there will be no propane left and all you'll have left is your secondary component. Blend "A" leaves you stuck with just regular butane which is a crappy cold weather fuel. Blend "B" leaves you with isobutane which is actually pretty good down to about 20F.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

I use a SVEA 123. I don't have no gas worries. Can't argue with you there. Danged fine stove.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Wow Hiking Jim - Ya beat me too it...

Folks lets just say you will find Pocket Rocket and Svea on MT Everest - but you won't see propane....

[atmilkman]

Very good post. Thank you. Between all the replies here and the jump to the blogs above I'm getting all the answers to a lot of questions I've had. Very good.

[Wise Old Owl]

PROPANE
More campers use this fuel than any other, probably because of convenience and ease of use. No pouring. No priming. Just attach the fuel cylinder to the appliance and you're in business. Coleman equipment is pressure-regulated at 15 psi (pounds per square inch) to ensure steady output throughout the life of the cylinder. Propane offers great overall reliability, but be aware that it operates less effectively at subfreezing temperatures than liquid fuels. Cold will cause a pressure drop in the cylinder and output will diminish as a result. Cylinders weigh two or three pounds, so propane isn't the lightest weight option. Nor is it the least expensive. However, if you tend to set up camp and stay for days or weeks, investing in a refillable bulk tank will significantly reduce the overall cost of fuel.
Main advantages: convenience and availability.

White Gas Fuel (Ultra clean Gasoline)
Also called white gas or camping fuel, you can't beat it for camping in the winter or at high altitude. Burns hot even at subzero temperatures. And unlike butane and propane, output doesn't falter as temperatures drop. White Gas Fuel is very refined, and burns hotter and cleaner than other liquid fuels. It's relatively inexpensive and not difficult to come by. By carrying the fuel in small refillable fuel bottles, you don't have the disposal considerations you do with empty propane or butane cylinders. But unlike appliances that use those fuels, you do need to fill liquid-fuel appliances. And for steady output, they need to be pumped occasionally to maintain pressure within the fuel tank.
Main advantages: heat output and economy.



Butane/Propane Fuel
Butane/Propane mix canisters are lightweight, resealable, and easily connect to stoves and lanterns. Most canister appliances are lightweight and simple to use, so if you are a backpacker who counts ounces and appreciates convenience this fuel is for you. Downsides are that canisters can't be recycled, and in subfreezing temperatures, the fuel does not perform well. Or at all. Cold temperatures affect the pressure in the canister, so performance is best in mild to moderate conditions, You'll find this fuel in specialty and sporting goods stores under several brand names.
Main advantages: convenience and light weight.

Taken from Colman's Site.

[hikin_jim]

Very good post. Thank you. Between all the replies here and the jump to the blogs above I'm getting all the answers to a lot of questions I've had. Very good. Excellent! Glad it's useful.

HJ

[Mike2012]

I use a SVEA 123. I don't have no gas worries.

Isn't it a bit heavy at 28 oz or is there a lighter model you like?

[hikin_jim]

Isn't it a bit heavy at 28 oz or is there a lighter model you like?28 oz!? Are you sure about that? I've got several Sveas 123's, both the old version and the new version. None of them weigh anything like that. Backcountry.com lists them at 19 oz (1lb, 3oz) which sounds about right.

You can also leave the little cup and the little handle at home if you want to save a few oz. It comes in at right about 1 lb if you leave the cup and handle behind.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

I have worked with a Svea for many years - I love it- its a mini flame thrower From Men in Black its the Noisy Cricket.... a few years ago I replaced my dads(in his seventies) and he loves it too.

with the primer and all that brass - its the rotary phone compared to smart phone... Alcohol stoves are the path to enlightenment...

The Owl has spoken....:cool:

[hikin_jim]

Hey, Owl,

You're a real hoot. :D

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Thanks - I crack myself up occasionally...got my Confucius on!

[hikin_jim]

Thanks - I crack myself up occasionally...got my Confucius on!Confucius or Confuse Us? ;)

HJ

[dla]

I have worked with a Svea for many years - I love it- its a mini flame thrower From Men in Black its the Noisy Cricket.... a few years ago I replaced my dads(in his seventies) and he loves it too.

with the primer and all that brass - its the rotary phone compared to smart phone... Alcohol stoves are the path to enlightenment...

The Owl has spoken....:cool:

Yes - I was wondering how long it would be till someone mentioned alcohol stoves. I don't bother with anything except alcohol anymore. I might use a SVEA 123 for the "fun" factor.

[Tom Murphy]

I use a SVEA 123. I don't have no gas worries.

+1

I love the sound of my SVEA in the morning.

[Jim Adams]

...chili!

geek

[Uncle Cranky]

Here is a reply I gave on another Forum to a guy with a similar question....hope it helps.

Recently I've been going to school working towards a HVAC certification.
Mind you, I'm only a borderline A student and not an expert....yet.
In class we went over the different properties of gasses used in refrigeration and heating.
These properties are also relevant to camp stoves.

There are three gases that are commonly used in camp stove canisters:
n-butane, isobutane, propane.
Each gas burns at a different Btu level and vaporizes at a different temperature.
n-butane produces 3,225 BtU/cu ft with an atmospheric vapor point of 31F
isobutane produces 2500 to 3200 Btu/cu ft with a vapor point of 13.6F
propane produces 2572 Btu/cu ft with a vapor point of -43F

As you can see by the numbers each type of gas has a pro or con.
n-Butane gas burns hotter per volume but won't vaporize below 31F.
Propane has a lower Btu performance but will vaporize at sub zero temperatures.

So why not just use pure propane?
The problem is the vapor point of -43 °F also means a high vapor pressure at common ambient temperatures.
This requires a heavy steel canister to safely contain it.
(Think heavy 1-pound propane canisters used for Coleman stoves and lanterns).
So canisters of pure propane are too heavy for backpacking.

Butane is easy to contain, at it's vapor point of 31F, but it doesn't vaporize when the temperature drops below freezing.
So, pure butane has major limitations for cold-weather backpacking.

The solution: a blended fuel consisting of propane, n-butane, and iso-butane.
The mixed gases can be put into a thinner walled and lighter canisters.
Now you get the best performance properties of the gases working together.
The low temperature burning properties of propane and high Btu of the butane.
At low temperatures propane's vapor pressure drives the system.
The other gases are carried along and burn with the propane.
There is a down side to this happy picture though.
The propane, because it vaporizes easily at low temperatures tends to burn off first.
As a canister empties the pressure also drops inside the canister.
This leads to a performance drop (lower gas pressure & heat output) in the last third of the canister.

So the main and most important issue for cold weather performance becomes the gas mix.
Not all canisters are the same and some may perform better in colder conditions.
Here are the relevant percentages for popular canisters:

Primus : 25% propane , 50% n-butane, 25% isobutane
Peak 1 : 30% propane, 70% n-butane, 0% isobutane
MSR IspPro : 20% propane, 0% n-butane, 80% isobutane
Snow Peak : 15% propane, 0% n-butane, 85% isobutane

Ok, lets go back and plug in the vapor temperatures of the different gases.
Propane (-43F), n-butane (31F), isobutane (13.6F).
Take into consideration that the demarcation line for performance is 31F.
At that temperature n-butane becomes a non performer.
(Actually, in heating applications, the temperature is more like 40F)
The higher % of n-butane in the canister will seriously effect performance unless the canister is kept warm.
The obvious choice of canister for below freezing performance becomes one with a high proportion of propane and little or no n-butane.
At least till you hit 13.6F then isobutane also becomes a non performer.
In this case the MSR IsoPro or Snow Peak would be your best choice with the MSR having a slight advantage in temperatures above 14F.

Just remember this as you stand in the gear shop with a canisters in each hand:ISO GOOD, N IS BAD

You could also just forget about this whole long winded post.

You now have a reason to be smiling while you pump up the pressure on your white gas stove.

[hikin_jim]

Hi, Uncle Cranky,

You're remarks are similar to the second link in the original post of this thread:

OK, I need some gas for some cold weather trips. So, I bopped into REI. Hey, wait a minute. This gas is 75% butane and that one is 65% isobutane and this one over here is three gasses. What the heck?? How is anybody supposed to know which one is gonna work for cold weather? And what the dickens are these blends all about anyway?

All important questions if you're headed out in cold weather. I try to answer them all in two posts on my blog:
What's the Best Gas for Cold Weather? (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/11/whats-best-brand-of-gas-for-cold.html)
Why blended gas? Why not just use propane? (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/11/why-not-just-use-propane.html)

HJ



n-butane produces 3,225 BtU/cu ft with an atmospheric vapor point of 31F
isobutane produces 2500 to 3200 Btu/cu ft with a vapor point of 13.6F
propane produces 2572 Btu/cu ft with a vapor point of -43F

As you can see by the numbers each type of gas has a pro or con.
n-Butane gas burns hotter per volume but won't vaporize below 31F.
Propane has a lower Btu performance but will vaporize at sub zero temperatures.

As a practical matter, the maximum heats between propane, butane, and isobutane aren't really at issue. Burner and valve design as well as canister pressure typically have more impact on the final heat output than the theoretical maximums of a given fuel. Propane, butane, and isobutane all burn hot enough that for practical purposes, there isn't a lot of difference in a backpacking stove.

On the other hand, the vaporization (boiling) points are extremely relevant in cold weather. I have slightly different numbers as to the boiling points, but whatever, a degree or two either way doesn't change the basic equation.



Take into consideration that the demarcation line for performance is 31F.
At that temperature n-butane becomes a non performer.
The higher % of n-butane in the canister will seriously effect performance unless the canister is kept warm.
The obvious choice of canister for below freezing performance becomes one with a high proportion of propane and little or no n-butane.
Just remember this as you stand in the gear shop with a canisters in each hand:ISO GOOD, N IS BAD
That's true to a point. If you're really going into cold weather where your fuel temperature is going to drop below 20F/-7C, then if you still want to use gas, you need to use an inverted canister stove. With an inverted canister stove, or any stove where the butane/propane/isobutane are fed in while still liquid, you don't burn propane at a faster rate, and butane doesn't "count against you" the same way it does with "regular" (upright) canister stoves. Indeed, the best winter gas blend available in the US is Coleman Powermax which is 65% n-butane and 35% propane.

HJ

[atraildreamer]

...(or peeing on it :eek: - hearsay, of course). Brass is cool!

That's how we used put out our campfires when I was a Boy Scout!

[hikin_jim]

That's how we used put out our campfires when I was a Boy Scout! Eww. :o

HJ

[hikin_jim]

Just to try to return this thread to a more sound basis, :) these are the numbers I have for the various gases:

Boiling point n-butane -0.5C 31F isobutane -12C 11F propane -42C -44F
As to exactly how they work together, well, check out my blog for that. ;)

HJ

[shelterbuilder]

Okay, boys and girls...now, I'd like to throw a little gasoline on this fire (pardon the pun). Being the "old fart" that I am, I can remember w-a-y back into the '70's when I was first getting out into the great outdoors (yep, BEFORE iso-butane was in common use)...I read EVERYTHING that I could get my hands on, and somewhere in all of that information, I remember reading that many of the mountaineers climbing the higher peaks (Everest, etc.) were using n-butane at sub-zero temperatures, and it worked fine for them BECAUSE THE ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE UP THERE WAS CONSIDERABLY LESS THAN IT IS AT SEA LEVEL! Yes, for most of us flatlanders, the atmospheric pressure can be assumed to be around "1 atmosphere" (around 15 psi)...and at 1 atmosphere, the values quoted are probably correct ("I'm not a physicist, I don't even play one on TV"), but as you ascend, the atmospheric pressure begins to drop, and the boiling points of ALL liquids drop relative to the atmospheric pressure (remember all of those "high altitude cooking directions" on your Mom's cake mix boxes?).
Got n-butane? Sleep with the canister to keep it warm! Stuff it inside your shirt for an hour before supper! Better yet...buy a SVEA on e-bay! :D:D:D

[hikin_jim]

BEFORE iso-butane Whoa! :eek: Practically pre-historic! ;)


I remember reading that many of the mountaineers climbing the higher peaks (Everest, etc.) were using n-butane at sub-zero temperatures, and it worked fine for them BECAUSE THE ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE UP THERE WAS CONSIDERABLY LESS THAN IT IS AT SEA LEVEL! Yep, absolutely right. I talk about it a little in How Cold Can I Run My Gas Stove? (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-cold-can-i-run-my-gas-stove.html) Generally, you can run your stove with fuel that is 2 degrees Fahrenheit colder for every 1,000 feet you gain in elevation. When you start getting to really high altitudes, this changes a bit. Atop Mt. Everest, you can use fuel that is about 57 degrees Fahrenheit colder than at sea level.


Better yet...buy a SVEA on e-bay! :D:D:D Good advice. :)

HJ

[Feral Bill]

Better yet...buy a SVEA on e-bay! :D:D:D[/QUOTE]


I've bought both my kids SVEAs on Ebay. Each works like new. Can't beat it.

[hikin_jim]

They're darned reliable. I rather like mine. :)

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

FYI the Rubber seals on Svea wear out after 20 years like all stoves.

So Uncle Cranky Guess you are stocking up on Snow Peak.....


Primus : 25% propane , 50% n-butane, 25% isobutane
Peak 1 : 30% propane, 70% n-butane, 0% isobutane
MSR IspPro : 20% propane, 0% n-butane, 80% isobutane
Snow Peak : 15% propane, 0% n-butane, 85% isobutane


Where does Ethel Alcohol fall in BtU/cu ft with an atmospheric vapor point?

[Papa D]

this is about the time of year that I leave the pocket rocket at home and add the whisperlight and gas bottle to my backpack with my good homemade windscreen. If I slog all day through rain and snow and ice and cross creeks and get muddy, I'm going to boil up my cooking water with the what I consider to be the proper tool.

[kayak karl]

i've used denatured alcohol down to -10 and 5000'. are you going lower and higher?

[hikin_jim]

this is about the time of year that I leave the pocket rocket at home and add the whisperlight and gas bottle to my backpack with my good homemade windscreen. If I slog all day through rain and snow and ice and cross creeks and get muddy, I'm going to boil up my cooking water with the what I consider to be the proper tool.Nothing wrong with a Whisperlite. It was my first stove (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/03/stove-of-week-msr-whisperlite-pre.html), and I've still got it.

I mention canister gas as a cold weather option not because I personally am against gas. It's just that I know some people hate white gas. I grew up with the stuff, so I'm fine with it. Other people will do whatever they have to do to avoid white gas. Each to his or her own I suppose.

Anyway, for anyone so inclined, I present my information. When the mercury starts going south of zero, I'll be grabbing my XGK or something of that order.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

My wisperlite almost set fire to a state park cabana - forgot to prime it.... My dad was laughing his +++ off. Love that thing...

HJ people do not hate white gas. They refuse to read instructions and think they are OK... The boy scouts many years back for general camping -stopped using white gas in average meets for a new safety level. From the accidents I have observed with boys - I still think this is a good thing.. when they are older we introduce white gas on backpacking trips to build confidence. I have still observed boys with hand grenades on fire. Nobody died.

[hikin_jim]

Yeah, I was out a couple of weekends ago. Some Scouts happened to be camping where I had lunch. One of the Scouts just about burned the place down by over-priming his stove. It's kind of funny that the Scouts generally don't allow alcohol stoves but do allow white gas stoves. Go figure.

HJ

[DBT fan]

Primus : 25% propane , 50% n-butane, 25% isobutane
Peak 1 : 30% propane, 70% n-butane, 0% isobutane
MSR IspPro : 20% propane, 0% n-butane, 80% isobutane
Snow Peak : 15% propane, 0% n-butane, 85% isobutane



What exactly is the Jetboil mixture content? I suspect it is close to the Snow Peak contents.

[hikin_jim]

What exactly is the Jetboil mixture content? I suspect it is close to the Snow Peak contents.
The Jetboil canisters specify that the fuel is isobutane and propane but they don't say what the proportions are. I'd say it's a decent cold weather blend just because it doesn't contain regular butane.

Of the brands that do not contain regular butane (MSR, Snow Peak, Jetboil, and Brunton), I just buy whatever is cheapest. For a typical upright canister stove, there isn't that much difference between an 80/20 mix and a 85/15 mix.

HJ