View Full Version : Composting Privy or Ridge runner
It seems to me that the cost of a ridge runnner in places such as The Smoky Mountain National Park might better be spent on installing a composting privy .
Is there a real need for a ridge runner? Many places survive quite well without them.
There sure is a real need for composting privies by some of the shelters.
Now the ridge runners are good folk and I am not one to take away someone's job but to be told to go crap over yonder in the bushes with a shovel is a little shortsighted , particularly when you walk back and see all the TP half buried/dug up and flying in the breeze.
shelterbuilder
12-13-2011, 19:12
The problem with a "traditional" composting privy is that someone has to go in every so often and, ah..."turn the pile inside out", and this is quite objectionable to a lot of folks. Now, the task CAN be a part of the ridgerunner's duties, but tying this duty into the ridgerunner's list of duties could make it downright difficult to get anyone to take on the job of being a ridgerunner.
ATC seems to be favoring a "modified" composting privy called a "moldering privy", which does a reasonable job of breaking down waste, but since it allows "untreated waste" to come in contact with the ground, it is considered to be a "failed system" in some locales. Since there is no uniform sanitation code in this country (like the uniform building code), the different states are free to handle sanitation regulations in whatever manner they see fit - some are really strict, some not so much. Most do not make a distinction between "front-country sanitation" and "back-country sanitation", and that can be a real problem in the back-country (where there is no electricity, no running water, and no central heat - three things that are assumed to be "on-site" in front-country development).
Two separate issues I think. Well, I think a ridge runner can educate people, amongst other things, and reduce the need for composting outhouses, but I don't think composting outhouses reduce the need for ridge runners.
Pedaling Fool
12-14-2011, 08:36
The number of rigderunners in GSMNP has nothing to do with the privyless shelters (which I believe is about 1/2 of them). So yes I do think it's two separate issues.
But as Shelterbuilder said, composting privies are not build-and-forget structures, they do take maintenance, with out it they're not much different than the pit-style privies. There are actually quite a few all along the AT and if you look at them you'll see that they do stink (except of course the new ones). One problem is that people don't use them in accordance with the posted instructions, but even if they did they'd all still eventully stink, for the same reason my compost pile will (and on occasion has) stink if I don't turn it.
Crap is just nasty stuff and it is a source of pollution (of course that's a relative term), when it comes out, but it does quickly neutralize. Just look at any cow/horse field, their patties quickly kill the grass underneath, until it's neutralized, at which time the grass comes back. Now imagine if those animals crapped in the very same spot, would take a much longer time to neutralize.
The only composting privies that are properly managed are the ones in the Whites, but that's only because they got the organization, it's not a critisism of all the other clubs. Actually to properly manage composting privies would require more of an official presence, kind of like a ridgerunner presence.
Pedaling Fool
12-14-2011, 08:45
Now the ridge runners are good folk and I am not one to take away someone's job but to be told to go crap over yonder in the bushes with a shovel is a little shortsighted , particularly when you walk back and see all the TP half buried/dug up and flying in the breeze.BTW, when in the smokies it's best (my opinion) to just not crap near the shelters. I go far, far away... Same for the area between Spivey Gap and Erwin, no privies, just "toliet areas". But I've learned that it's best for me to just not use any of the privies; I'm now privyless when I hike and will never go back. Nasty, nasty places.
The solution to polution is dilution.
Any outhouse will work well if it doesn't get used much, but quite another thing if it gets used alot. Shelters are good in a way because they take pressure off the rest of the trail, but they do concentrate it in one area, which creates challenges. Sawdust or chopped straw would help. Worst thing to do is add water as it compounds the problem astronomically, which funny enough is what we do in cities and suburbs, with sewers septic fields, but I guess its what you have to do if you want to be able to flush it and move it. Outhouses work well, but have to be more compicated as you add more traffic volume.
I like the approach of moving the outhouse periodically and planting a tree. Doesn't work everywhere.
If you wanted to get really technical about pooping in the woods, you could choose your site more carefully. Well aerated soil, not too wet, with lost of forest litter. Poop is high in nitrogen. It breaks down much faster when mixed with damp forest litter than is high in carbon. Not too wet. Not too dry. Not some place where rain will wash it into a stream or onto a trail. Return every week or so and give it a turn. lol
Pedaling Fool
12-14-2011, 12:00
I'm really curious what happens to all that "stuff" when they bury a privy pit. I wouldn't be surprised if it stops decomposing and starts fossilizing. If it does continue to decompose, obviously it's decomposing via anaerobic processes; I can only imagine the sludge produced and it has to go somewhere.
Spirit Walker
12-14-2011, 14:11
I hiked with someone who was a maintainer in the Smokies. He said they stopped building privies because they would fill up with trash in less than a year. Many people are too lazy to carry out their garbage. Having to either clean out the privies or dig a new hole every few months got old after a while.
Mr. Bumpy
12-14-2011, 17:24
No ****...?
Pedaling Fool
12-14-2011, 18:00
I hiked with someone who was a maintainer in the Smokies. He said they stopped building privies because they would fill up with trash in less than a year. Many people are too lazy to carry out their garbage. Having to either clean out the privies or dig a new hole every few months got old after a while.Makes you wonder what stuff people flush down their toliets. I don't blame the clubs one bit if they were to stop providing privies.
Maybe the solution is to do away with privies all together.
It seemed that in some places along the trail, there was a system whereby the crapper was moved a few yards and then, after a period of time , returned to its original spot and so forth. Whether everything had broken down or not in the meantime, I have no idea.
The natural way of just picking a spot far from any shelter has to be the best, along with better education on how to properly bury it.
My only 'beef' with the ridgerunner was that he directed people over to one area and that made for a disatrous area on one side of the shelter. Akin to a minefield. And it wasn't particularly hilly, causing runoff, on the other side.
As for people adding trash to the privies, just another reason to do away with them altogether.
I always used to mark my spot with a couple of crossed sticks to lessen the chance of someone else digging up my treasure!
Pedaling Fool
12-15-2011, 22:15
My only 'beef' with the ridgerunner was that he directed people over to one area and that made for a disatrous area on one side of the shelter. Akin to a minefield. And it wasn't particularly hilly, causing runoff, on the other side. That's the way it's set up. Water is on one side and the "Toilet Area" is on the North Carolina side.
That's why I just go far far away and do my business. No ridgerunner can tell you that you can't do that, but they can and should tell you to stay on the opposite side of the water source at the shelter.
As for training people to bury, everyone already knows that, but they simply choose not to. Maybe that's what the ridgerunner should be doing, watching people do their business so he can verify they bury it:D
aaronthebugbuffet
12-15-2011, 22:46
Ridge runner is probably a lot cheaper than building and maintaing privies.
The only only way to protect theses places is to limit the use.
Wise Old Owl
12-15-2011, 23:05
I hiked with someone who was a maintainer in the Smokies. He said they stopped building privies because they would fill up with trash in less than a year. Many people are too lazy to carry out their garbage. Having to either clean out the privies or dig a new hole every few months got old after a while.
S0 True! ...my message is too short....
Every shelter and camping area along the AT in Maine has either a pit privy or a mouldering privy. They were all built and are maintained by volunteers. The conditions in the Smokies are disgraceful from both an aesthetic and health standpoint. Privies are not a cause of problems. They solve severe problems. When I have walked through the Smokies the excuse I was told is that the soils are not suitable for pit privies. Which is absurd. If glacier-scarred Maine can find suitable soils. The deep soils in the high mountains of Georgia surely has them. I think laziness is the real reason for these deplorable conditions.
Digger'02
12-16-2011, 10:37
Hey all, this is an interesting discussion, thanks for the good comment from gault, JAK and others. Be clear: we have privies for one reason and one reason only: people could not act responsibly in the woods. They either didn't know or didn't care enough to dispose of waste properly, so privies were installed at significant cost (some materials have been flown in by helicopter) to accommodate people who cant seem to dig a proper cat hole in a good location. This is a similar case to bear cables which were installed because hikers could not hang their food properly.
An interesting sidebar is the question of limiting use and 'carrying capacity' of the Smokies. One I will not get into, although the woods can handle a lot more LNT freaks than it can dunder-headed nincompoops.
Ridgerunners are there to educate hikers on things like food storage, the importance of reservations, LNT etc. But they do not "stir the pile"; volunteers do that. Once the pile has fully broken down, its shoveled out. I have found panties, a 8in knife, an unopened mountain house and a mousetrap (wish I knew that story) in the excess.
The composted material has also been tested for fecal cauliflower ;) to make sure the process was working. The results were far more positive that suspected.
Privies and bear cables are a huge cost, especially to volunteers, but they take on this challenge because we all know, without them, the Smokies would be a much worse place to visit.
Sorry if I took a negative tone, its been a doozy of a morning. I think all of you are neat.
PS- the mulch chips themselves come at a significant cost... they must be purchased from an approved mill, and are hauled in via backpack, horse or helo.
curtisvowen
12-16-2011, 10:54
Hope this link works, but its Green Mountain Mt. Hiking Club's (Vermont) .pdf on composting privies & from what I understand has been adapted by the NP/NF folks
http://atfiles.org/files/pdf/atcsanitation.pdf
We use one here with great success.
max patch
12-16-2011, 12:18
The conditions in the Smokies are disgraceful from both an aesthetic and health standpoint.
I agree totally. The *****t piles around the shelters, the whole gotta make a reservation and sleep in a shelter, the GSMNP is the worst 80 miles the AT has to offer. Yet people continue to go. I don't get it.
Digger'02
12-16-2011, 12:35
Max, i think your hyperbole is poorly suited for this discussion. Of course the Smokies is not the worst 80 miles of the Trail. Its beautiful, its the longest stretch above 6,000, it as remote as it gets and the shelters, although you have to stay in them, are very nice.
Remember all of the current regulations (excluding the impending fee system) are in place because hikers could not act responsibly and the resource was suffering at an unacceptable level. If we as a group could police ourselves and act like grown-ups, then do you think they would have gone to the trouble?
Weary, For what it is worth every shelter in Georgia does have a moldering privy . The Gatc had over 16,000 hours working on those privys and the 79 miles of trail they look afterin 2011. And the Smokies are in the NC/TN state miles===Please do not refer to the Gatc as lazy!