View Full Version : LT 8-1-12 Rutland to Canada
Chaco Taco
12-15-2011, 10:30
SO I am looking at the start of August. I have a gap from school and a slow time with work to maybe make a run at Canada. I haven't gotten my book yet but just had some standard thoughts. How far is it to the terminus from Rutland? About how long would it take me at a brisk pace? Do I need to carry my passport?
Cookerhiker
12-15-2011, 10:47
I didn't need a passport when I hiked it in '07 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=203589). The Trail ends right at the border next to a border stone in the middle of the woods - no Border Patrolers around. Rutland i.e. Sherbourne Pass/Rt. 4 is 170 trail miles from the northern terminus - don't know about driving miles. The biggest logistical challenge is getting to/from the northern terminus which is pretty remote. Once you reach Rt. 15 northbound, you'll see very few hikers.
August 1 is a good time to hike - no black flies and I found mosquitos were not a problem with my mid-August start.
Time - I'm sure you can do it in less than 3 weeks. Some hikers cover it in 2 weeks - a bit less than 20 mpd - but keep in mind that no matter how fit you are to bound up the uphills, some of the downhills are very slow going because of their rocky footing and steepness e.g. descents into Appalachian Gap and down Whiteface Mountain.
It's a great Trail. Having done it twice, I'd like to do it again some day.
Slo-go'en
12-15-2011, 14:24
Chaco - 10 mpd is pretty good pace for much of that section, especially north of Mansfield. I'd give it at least 2 weeks but be ready for up to 3. Also, though it is harder starting out, consider going SOBO. You could have someone drive you up to North Troy to start, then when you get to route 4, you can pretty much hitch hike straight home.
Chaco Taco
12-15-2011, 15:17
That is a thought. I had thought of doing a bunch of the more remote hikes in the Whites to get me ready. SOBO is a great idea. Just picked up the new guidebook at EMS. Talked with the wife and she seems like she would be cool if I went out for a couple of weeks. Im still in a dilemma about doing the whole thing, maybe the chance will present itself for me to do an entire hike of it. Can always hope right?
Cookerhiker
12-15-2011, 15:27
I misunderstood when I said 2 weeks=20 mpd; I was thinking of the entire LT. If you're only hiking between Rutland and the northern point, I'm sure you could do it in 2 weeks - a bit more than 12 mpd. But nothing wrong with taking your time and enjoying the nice parts, especially the Lincoln Ridge and Camel's Hump.
SOBO may be a good idea. I prefer uphill over downhill and it seems that most of the difficult slopes are the north side. But the SOBO hike up Mansfield - the highest point in VT - is very well-graded and consistent for the 2,500' or so you're gaining. I think ascending from Appalachian Gap may take less time than descending it on a NOBO hike.
Slo-go'en
12-15-2011, 15:46
As an experiance hiker, you can probably do the E2E in less then 4 weeks, but probably more than 3. As my first long distance hike, the LT took me about 28 days, SOBO in June, where it rained most of the first 2 weeks, which really slowed us down (had a partner). Once it stopped raining and warmed up, the Black flies came out in force, so we really started to move along for the last half of trail! It was either that or get eaten alive.
Private Message me and I'll share my entire end to end itinerary with you, re-supply info, transportation, the whole show -- wondering why you are starting in Rutland and not just doing the whole thing -- you can do MA to Rutland in 8 days or so. No, no passport required. PM me, seriously.
stranger
12-15-2011, 21:45
Rutland to Canada is 168.5 miles...about half of those miles are fairly difficult. Might see you out there, we are looking at leaving the Canadian Border in late July/early Aug
Johnny Thunder
12-15-2011, 23:49
more than two but less than three is probably a good estimate. the only hitch we had trouble with was the one into middlebury...though we did pass a reasonable country store on the way (west) down the mountain so you could probably resupply there. but then again, i have strong thumbs...we hitched door to door from north troy to dublin, nh.
Chaco Taco
12-16-2011, 17:03
Wak and I did the AT section on our thru in 08. She wants to do some of the northern section as well. Im thinking about having her out on her summer vacation for a week then going North and SOBO to where we leave off. Still undecided on doing the whole thing
If you dont have a passport they wont let you in..Period.... New rules on both sides, and even if you did get in without a passport you wont get back to the U.S. without one. Have Fun !
Cookerhiker
12-16-2011, 20:07
If you dont have a passport they wont let you in..Period.... New rules on both sides, and even if you did get in without a passport you wont get back to the U.S. without one. Have Fun !
Where are the "they" who won't let you in? Are they posted at the LT terminus? They weren't in '07 when I hiked the LT and BTW passports were required then.
You hike, you reach the border stone, peer at the view, turn right, and head down the Journeys End trail. No big deal. Just don't do something stupid.
Mountain Mike
12-16-2011, 20:52
They set up a new Border patrol station? This is my pic at Journey end trail/ Start of LT.14642Logistic wise for you it might be easier to catch a ride from a friend to North terminus & hike south. I would compare it to the Whites on AT. She had just gotten of CT & 12-15 was about good with her till she got to cold about 100 miles in. It was Oct hike.
Chaco Taco
12-17-2011, 01:00
Well Ill probably take it with me anyway just in case something happens and I end up having to cross. I have been thumbing through the guidebook and am curious about the lack of camping in the northern section, esp in the last 100 miles. How is the camping situation north of Vt 4?
stranger
12-17-2011, 04:11
Where are the "they" who won't let you in? Are they posted at the LT terminus? They weren't in '07 when I hiked the LT and BTW passports were required then.
You hike, you reach the border stone, peer at the view, turn right, and head down the Journeys End trail. No big deal. Just don't do something stupid.
No one is checking passports at the Northern Terminus of the Long Trail, and if someone is they can kiss my ass, wouldn't be the first time I f'ed with a border cop, just need to know how to play them.
Chaco Taco
12-17-2011, 11:42
No offense Stranger but Id rather be safe than sorry to be honest. Id rather not get detained. I have heard about 50-50 responses for and against the whole passport thing so I think I will just play it safe and carry mine the last little bit of the LT.
The newest edition of the guidebook is pretty nice with loads of info about camping, the various side trails through each section and town info. The GMC did pretty good on the new edition. I will probably plan on the 10-12 mile days. Im still deciding on an entire end to end hike. The first section is just so beautiful and easy. Would be nice to start out there to get my legs before pushing into the tougher stuff. My goal is to be able to have relatively few days off trail. Def planning on taking a zero in Manch Center to hang out with Jeff. My goal is to spend as much time on trail as possible.
Slo-go'en
12-17-2011, 14:23
As Mountian Mike's photo shows, the terminus is in the middle of the woods. You can cross into Canada no problem, but it would be a long bushwack just to get to a road. You can cross into Canada on RT 101 out of North Troy and the boarder crossing there is pretty laid back, as it is mostly locals going across, but there really isn't anything there of interest. Derby Line, just north of Newport is interesting, as the boarder goes right through the middle of the town. No idea how they deal with the passport issue there!
Yes, you need to stay at the shelters and lodges up north, there aren't any real tenting sites available. You won't run into any big crowds, so that is not a problem and in August the bugs aren't going to be either.
Your right IF you dont cross into Canada...
Highway Man
12-17-2011, 20:52
I met an US border patrol about half an hour north of VT Rt.105 on the trail in 2010. The guy was pretty nice and never asked me to show him my ID. I was only asked if I saw anybody suspicious on the trail. Carrying a passport may prove a good idea if a hiker is stopped right at the border line by a serious US border patrol. Indeed, they have activities going on in that area.
Slo-go'en
12-17-2011, 21:58
I met an US border patrol about half an hour north of VT Rt.105 on the trail in 2010. The guy was pretty nice and never asked me to show him my ID. I was only asked if I saw anybody suspicious on the trail. Carrying a passport may prove a good idea if a hiker is stopped right at the border line by a serious US border patrol. Indeed, they have activities going on in that area.
In that case a drivers license would be enough of an ID. But if you have a good Jersy accent, they aren't going to question you.
stranger
12-17-2011, 22:34
No offense Stranger but Id rather be safe than sorry to be honest. Id rather not get detained. I have heard about 50-50 responses for and against the whole passport thing so I think I will just play it safe and carry mine the last little bit of the LT.
The newest edition of the guidebook is pretty nice with loads of info about camping, the various side trails through each section and town info. The GMC did pretty good on the new edition. I will probably plan on the 10-12 mile days. Im still deciding on an entire end to end hike. The first section is just so beautiful and easy. Would be nice to start out there to get my legs before pushing into the tougher stuff. My goal is to be able to have relatively few days off trail. Def planning on taking a zero in Manch Center to hang out with Jeff. My goal is to spend as much time on trail as possible.
Trust me I'm not offended...I do find it perplexing that you are worried about being detained in your own country for hiking within US borders however (the land of the free eh). I know we Americans are losing our civil liberties however hadn't realized how bad this got since I left in 2002. Honestly, if you hike the Long Trail and stop at the border, what's the problem? Why would one need a passport or ID? Worried about us smuggling some ice hockey players?
stranger
12-17-2011, 22:56
What might be better than rumors and 'I heard this' and 'this guy said that' is if someone actually knows the US Border Policy on the Long Trail, I do see there is a checkpoint near North Troy, so it's likely they have a 'custom and practice' approach to the Long Trail. If anyone has concrete information on this, that would be appreciated.
Chaco Taco
12-18-2011, 00:02
Its more so if I were in the position at the end and needed to cross into Canada. I don't know of any reason I would have to, but that is reason enough for me to get the info I need if that issue were to arise.
What might be better than rumors and 'I heard this' and 'this guy said that' is if someone actually knows the US Border Policy on the Long Trail, I do see there is a checkpoint near North Troy, so it's likely they have a 'custom and practice' approach to the Long Trail. If anyone has concrete information on this, that would be appreciated.
The LT lies entirely in the US; how can there a US Border Policy concerning it? Do they check passports in Concord, NH, without a cause? It is not a closed military zone there either. The border post shown in one of the previous posts is actually 50' north of the official LT terminus (a big wooden sign similar to what you might have seen on the MA/VT border).
I did the LT SOBO last summer, starting at the end of June. There is a .7-mile approach trail to the northern terminus that stays well south of the border. Crossing from the northern terminus to Canada would also be rather difficult; the bushes on the other side seemed pretty dense. I did not hear of anyone carrying their passport on the LT.
By the way, some of the elevation gains listed in the 2011 E2E guide are way off.
stranger
12-18-2011, 20:24
The LT lies entirely in the US; how can there a US Border Policy concerning it? Do they check passports in Concord, NH, without a cause? It is not a closed military zone there either. The border post shown in one of the previous posts is actually 50' north of the official LT terminus (a big wooden sign similar to what you might have seen on the MA/VT border).
I did the LT SOBO last summer, starting at the end of June. There is a .7-mile approach trail to the northern terminus that stays well south of the border. Crossing from the northern terminus to Canada would also be rather difficult; the bushes on the other side seemed pretty dense. I did not hear of anyone carrying their passport on the LT.
By the way, some of the elevation gains listed in the 2011 E2E guide are way off.
This is exactly what I'm thinking...besides, less than 10% of Americans even have passports so it would seem like a fairly ineffective process in any event.
StubbleJumper
12-18-2011, 21:01
The LT lies entirely in the US; how can there a US Border Policy concerning it? Do they check passports in Concord, NH, without a cause? It is not a closed military zone there either. The border post shown in one of the previous posts is actually 50' north of the official LT terminus (a big wooden sign similar to what you might have seen on the MA/VT border).
Yep, that would be common sense. But for the past 10 years, common sense has been subordinated by the desire for enhanced security. The Patriot Act provided enhanced border security, including a bunch of CBP agents cruising around in SUVs in about a 25-mile corridor along the border. These guys have the authority to stop and question anybody to ensure that they have legally entered the U.S. If you give them any lip, there is a significant prospect of being detained while they determine your immigration status. Carry some ID, and if you are stopped by a CBP agent, be polite and everything will go just fine. When I did my end-to-end in 2010, one of the fellows I was hiking with was stopped briefly at a road crossing just after Shooting Star....no biggie, just a quick chat to verify that he wasn't a terrorist or an illegal immigrant.
If you want to use Montreal as your port into or out of the Northern Terminus (as I did), you do need your passport to show to either the Canadians or the Americans.... The Canadians had a few questions for me as I crossed at North Troy on foot in the dirty, smelly, and unkempt state that follows a long walk!
Cookerhiker
12-18-2011, 22:48
In that case a drivers license would be enough of an ID. But if you have a good Jersy accent, they aren't going to question you.
And it's not just Joisy - my GF had no problem crossing from Canada w/o papers because of her Kentucky accent - the BP guy said he knew she was American "with that accent."
Chaco Taco
12-18-2011, 23:11
The LT lies entirely in the US; how can there a US Border Policy concerning it? Do they check passports in Concord, NH, without a cause? It is not a closed military zone there either. The border post shown in one of the previous posts is actually 50' north of the official LT terminus (a big wooden sign similar to what you might have seen on the MA/VT border).
I did the LT SOBO last summer, starting at the end of June. There is a .7-mile approach trail to the northern terminus that stays well south of the border. Crossing from the northern terminus to Canada would also be rather difficult; the bushes on the other side seemed pretty dense. I did not hear of anyone carrying their passport on the LT.
By the way, some of the elevation gains listed in the 2011 E2E guide are way off.
Ya know, I just asked a friggin question because some people that had previously hiked it went into Montreal to get back south, sheesh!
StubbleJumper
12-18-2011, 23:33
Ya know, I just asked a friggin question because some people that had previously hiked it went into Montreal to get back south, sheesh!
In that case, yes you need your passport.
It's an easy walk from Journey's End shelter to North Troy. Then it's about 0.5 miles to the border crossing. Show the Canadians your passport, have a little chit-chat with them, and then walk about 3 miles on quiet country roads to Mansonville, Quebec. You can catch a bus from Mansonville to Montreal: http://www.destinationknowlton.com/knowlton-bus-schedule.html
I (http://www.destinationknowlton.com/knowlton-bus-schedule.html)n Montreal you arrive downtown at the central bus terminal on Berri Steet and Demaisonneuve Avenue. You can catch the Hound from there, or you can get to the train station by taking the orange line on the Metro from the Berri/UQAM stop to the Bonaventure stop. Or you can take a taxi to Pierre Elliot Trudeau airport.
It's probably the easiest way to get from Journey's End to a large airport.
Chaco Taco
12-18-2011, 23:36
In that case, yes you need your passport.
It's an easy walk from Journey's End shelter to North Troy. Then it's about 0.5 miles to the border crossing. Show the Canadians your passport, have a little chit-chat with them, and then walk about 3 miles on quiet country roads to Mansonville, Quebec. You can catch a bus from Mansonville to Montreal: http://www.destinationknowlton.com/knowlton-bus-schedule.html
I (http://www.destinationknowlton.com/knowlton-bus-schedule.html)n Montreal you arrive downtown at the central bus terminal on Berri Steet and Demaisonneuve Avenue. You can catch the Hound from there, or you can get to the train station by taking the orange line on the Metro from the Berri/UQAM stop to the Bonaventure stop. Or you can take a taxi to Pierre Elliot Trudeau airport.
It's probably the easiest way to get from Journey's End to a large airport.
Thanks Dude
Just found the e2e book and have seen the map. The LT Guidebook is ok, just like a trail guide without the layout Im looking for. Ill go with the e2e. Plus I see that 501 is part of that book so its more of what I am going for!
stranger
12-19-2011, 01:12
Regardless this was a good debate to have, so many terrorist thru-hiking the Long Trail these days!
Chaco Taco
12-19-2011, 06:41
Yea such a good debate that Ill probably take my questions somewhere else next time:rolleyes:
When I finished the L.T., the Border Patrol guys said "hey, how long did (the hike) it take you?" - they knew what we were doing and were more or less friendly -- they did ask my friend not to take a picture of their car. We were waiting on a ride at Journey's End Road - which is pretty much where a dirt road meets a paved road near a barn and some nice horses.
NorthCountryWoods
12-19-2011, 13:04
The LT lies entirely in the US; how can there a US Border Policy concerning it? Do they check passports in Concord, NH, without a cause? It is not a closed military zone there either. The border post shown in one of the previous posts is actually 50' north of the official LT terminus (a big wooden sign similar to what you might have seen on the MA/VT border).
I did the LT SOBO last summer, starting at the end of June. There is a .7-mile approach trail to the northern terminus that stays well south of the border. Crossing from the northern terminus to Canada would also be rather difficult; the bushes on the other side seemed pretty dense. I did not hear of anyone carrying their passport on the LT.
Patriot act. You can be questioned and detained indefinitely without cause within 100 miles of the US border. DHS actually refers to it as a "Constitution Free Zone". Heard the ACLU was fighting to have it dropped to less, but never found any confirmation. Either way, at the northern terminus, you are in it, so it's best to be prepared.
The border patrol agents aren't local yokels and don't play games. I know several around the area and they are all business on the job.
Yep, that would be common sense. But for the past 10 years, common sense has been subordinated by the desire for enhanced security. The Patriot Act provided enhanced border security, including a bunch of CBP agents cruising around in SUVs in about a 25-mile corridor along the border. These guys have the authority to stop and question anybody to ensure that they have legally entered the U.S. If you give them any lip, there is a significant prospect of being detained while they determine your immigration status. Carry some ID, and if you are stopped by a CBP agent, be polite and everything will go just fine. When I did my end-to-end in 2010, one of the fellows I was hiking with was stopped briefly at a road crossing just after Shooting Star....no biggie, just a quick chat to verify that he wasn't a terrorist or an illegal immigrant.
If you want to use Montreal as your port into or out of the Northern Terminus (as I did), you do need your passport to show to either the Canadians or the Americans.... The Canadians had a few questions for me as I crossed at North Troy on foot in the dirty, smelly, and unkempt state that follows a long walk!
This is correct. If you don't cross the border, you shouldn't need anything more than a drivers license. If you cross you will need a passport to return.
Every time I have shuttled someone to Journeys End I've seen at least one patrol on the way in or way out. Sometimes on Journeys End Rd, sometimes on North Jay Rd and always on 105 between Richford and North Troy. Haven't heard any horror stories about being stopped and questioned, but it's always a possibility.
Been stopped a few times since 9/11 (without passport or one of those enhanced licenses) and was questioned quickly and sent on my way. It's always been on one of the back roads close to the border like North Jay or Journeys End.
Patriot act. You can be questioned and detained indefinitely without cause within 100 miles of the US border. DHS actually refers to it as a "Constitution Free Zone"
I live within 100 miles of the Canadian border, would be scary to have BPA pulling people over and shaking us down for papers. Detain me? I think not.
Heading south the last week of July with a drivers license, and ironicly no car,lol.
Travel in peace my friends
NorthCountryWoods
12-19-2011, 16:49
Patriot act. You can be questioned and detained indefinitely without cause within 100 miles of the US border. DHS actually refers to it as a "Constitution Free Zone"
I live within 100 miles of the Canadian border, would be scary to have BPA pulling people over and shaking us down for papers. Detain me? I think not.
Heading south the last week of July with a drivers license, and ironicly no car,lol.
Travel in peace my friends
You can think not, but it is unfortunately true. I live less than 25 miles as the crow flies from the border and have never seen border patrol outside the immediate vicinity of the border. There was a time in the years right after 9/11 they had traffic stops on the interstates (I-87 in NY and I-91 in VT). The one in VT was in White River Junction and that's right at the 100 mile limit. They used to ask whether or not you were US citizens and let you go. The one in NY caused a couple fatal accidents and both were shut down.
You can read more about the "constitution free zone" here-
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone
Quite an eyeopener.
stranger
12-19-2011, 18:26
People should read up on the 'Indefinate Detention Bill' that just passed in the Senate, this basically means that your Bill of Rights is gone...common sense would say this would be more of a concern closer to the borders. In short it means any person, ANY PERSON, can be detained and tortured for an indefinite period, held without rights of any kind, if 'deemed' a risk to US security! I think my attitude towards border cops just improved. Good times! If anyone wants to move to New Zealand or Australia I can walk you through it, crazy times.
Chaco, unless you actually want to visit Montreal after your LT hike, getting home via Montreal won't be the fastest or cheapest way. There are a number of shuttlers based around North Troy; some of them are listed in the E2E guide, but you can e-mail GMC for an updated, longer, list.
The closest place with public transportation is Morrisville, about 35 miles south, from which a bus runs to Waterbury. I am sure a number of shuttlers would be willing to take you to WRJ or Hanover, for more money, of course. Specifically, John, who took me from Morrisville to Journey's End trailhead (almost; that road was in a pretty bad shape) charges about $1 per mile (on your trip, not his). He is based just outside of North Troy. The 2011 E2E does not list him, but his name was on the longer list I got from GMC.
stranger
12-23-2011, 21:50
I can't see how travelling through Morrisville/Montreal is logistically easier and cheaper than going through Burlington or St.Albans, especially factoring in customs and what not. Although Montreal is a cool city.
double d
12-24-2011, 07:53
this is a good question, with alot of good answers, but contact the US Dept. of State, passport division and order your passport id card (it looks just like a drivers license) and that passport id card is good for passage into Canada and Mexico. Its much easier of course to carry then your fold out passport
I meant Morrisville, VT. This is the closest town in the US to the northern terminus that has regular public transportation (on weekdays). This is the cheapest way to/from the northern terminus, as it is only 35 miles away; Burlington is more like 75, and you are likely to pay accordingly. From Morrisville, a bus runs to Waterbury, connecting with commuter buses along I-89 ($4 to Burlington). You can also take Amtrak to Springfield and NYC.
Chaco Taco
12-25-2011, 23:04
Got my transportation all squared away. Still undecided what direction Ill go but will decide in the next 2 weeks as we find out about our office closing in the next couple of weeks. Im not going to sweat the passport issue anymore, doesn't seem like a big deal. Got an LT map for Xmas and am on my way to getting closer.