Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves)

[hikin_jim]

Sure, you can run your alcohol stove on methanol. That's what comes in a yellow bottle of HEET. I mean it's cheap and available and all -- but it doesn't have as much heat content as ethanol. In other words, you have to carry more methanol just to do the same amount of cooking.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-z03mtXtHSk4/TuJuuTCD1sI/AAAAAAAAFTk/VWhZ2aI24P8/s640/P1080668.JPG

OK, so I can get more heat from ethanol than methanol, great, but alcohols with high ethanol content tend to be more expensive. Just how much weight can I save? In other words, Is Ethanol Worth It? (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/12/is-ethanol-worth-it.html)

Join me on today's Adventure in Stoving as we "do the numbers" on ethanol.

HJ
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KThDxIPzoiQ/Tu6LTY9ZKSI/AAAAAAAAFkc/uVak0IAqAqU/s800/P1080748.JPG

[ljcsov]

I use a simple tuna can with holes punched in the side for my current DIY stove. I find the diameter fits my pot well. I use the fuel that you find in hardware stores for boat kitchens. I think its ethyl alcohol?

[moytoy]

H-J you have done some good testing. Great Blog!
I will use either or both ethanol and methanol depending on what is available. Methanol seems to be a little easier to find is the quantities I need. I use a pressurized type stove so methonal works a little better than ethanol in the winter time. It has a lower boiling point.

[hikin_jim]

I use a simple tuna can with holes punched in the side for my current DIY stove. I find the diameter fits my pot well. I use the fuel that you find in hardware stores for boat kitchens. I think its ethyl alcohol? It won't be 100% ethanol, probably not even 95%. Most likely it's a blend of ethanol, methanol, and some other things, but you'd have to check the MSDS for the product. It'll probably work fine for stove fuel although it may not have the max heat per gram like you'd get from something with a high ethanol content.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

H-J you have done some good testing. Great Blog!

Thanks! I try to make my stuff practical/useful.



I will use either or both ethanol and methanol depending on what is available. Methanol seems to be a little easier to find is the quantities I need. I use a pressurized type stove so methonal works a little better than ethanol in the winter time. It has a lower boiling point. Yeah, it's pretty tough to beat the availability of HEET (methanol), and you're right that it works better in colder weather. You can get green denatured at Home Depot, but they only sell it by the quart, so it's a little more expensive.

Green denatured does have a fairly high ethanol content. I could clearly see the difference in my tests.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

This may be a little esoteric for some, but one thing that stood out during testing is that the flame from burning ethanol is a lot more visible during daylight. Now I know none of you have ever burned the hair off the back of your knuckles checking to see if your stove is still lit, but I've had a few "ouch moments" in my time. Particularly for those of you with younger kids, maybe that's something worth thinking about.

HJ

[moytoy]

Hmmm...I love the smell of burnt hair in the morning!:)

[Camping Dave]

Denatured alchohol. 90-95% ethanol, plus methanol etc. About $6 per gallon. Much less expensive than HEET.

[moytoy]

Denatured alchohol. 90-95% ethanol, plus methanol etc. About $6 per gallon. Much less expensive than HEET.
Where? I'm paying about $14 per gal.

[mrclean417]

The denaturing process is just making sure that you won't drink the stuff. Methanol, other additives you wouldn't want around BUT my can was labeled as stripper/chaffing dish fuel. Gotta figure they didn't put anything like Zync powder or the likes in there. I just buy heat by the 4 pack at Walmart. I can get Everclear in this state, could see what pure 180 proof ethanol would be like. Guess that's only 90% though, the rest is water I think.

[hikin_jim]

The denaturing process is just making sure that you won't drink the stuff. Yes. Exactly. However, some of the stuff used as a denaturant can be nasty to burn. Methanol burns pretty cleanly, but they throw a lot of other things into denatured alcohol besides just methanol.

Generally, "drinking grade" alcohol just contains ethanol, water, and flavoring/coloring agents (very minor amounts). 190 proof (95% ethanol) is about the highest concentration of "drinking grade" alcohol you can get. 150 proof (75% ethanol) is another popular composition.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

Where? I'm paying about $14 per gal. Yes! I'd like to know too. I'm paying about $16.00/gallon at Home Depot for a gallon of SLX. If you extrapolate out the cost of yellow HEET, it too is around $16.00/gallon but is a little cheaper than SLX.

$6.00/gallon would be some nice, cheap stuff.

HJ

[moytoy]

Denatured alchohol. 90-95% ethanol, plus methanol etc. About $6 per gallon. Much less expensive than HEET.
I did a quick online search and found a price of $6.95 per gal plus shipping for 4 gal. min. order. That comes to $42 for 4 gal. Not bad really but unless I'm going to strip some antique furniture I don't need 4 gal. of ethanol.

[hikin_jim]

Yeah, good price, but who needs four gallons at a time? I mean, I like to get out and all, but four gallons?

HJ

[Tinker]

I did a quick online search and found a price of $6.95 per gal plus shipping for 4 gal. min. order. That comes to $42 for 4 gal. Not bad really but unless I'm going to strip some antique furniture I don't need 4 gal. of ethanol.

The shipping charges would likely eliminate any savings over purchasing per gallon at the local big box home improvement store. :-?

[Doc Mike]

Methanol is about 4 dollars per gallon when bought in 55 gallon drum. Thats how I buy it. At 1/2 ounce per meal how many days can I go????? seriously I use it to make biodiesel also thats why the bulk.

[hikin_jim]

Methanol is about 4 dollars per gallon when bought in 55 gallon drum. Thats how I buy it. At 1/2 ounce per meal how many days can I go????? seriously I use it to make biodiesel also thats why the bulk.Dang, you could start a re-sale business to the through hikers if you lived close to the AT. :)

HJ

[dla]

Do you have data showing that it requires measurably more methanol than ethanol to boil the same amount of water?

[dla]

Disregard this post - it is dumb.

But there is something you need to remember about fuels - operation is more important than efficiency. Methanol's lower vapor pressure makes it a much better choice for cold weather. And unless you are measuring the flue gasses, you have no idea whether or not your particular stove uses methanol efficiently.

[dla]

Disregard this post - it is dumb.

But there is something you need to remember about fuels - operation is more important than efficiency. Methanol's lower vapor pressure makes it a much better choice for cold weather. And unless you are measuring the flue gasses, you have no idea whether or not your particular stove uses methanol efficiently.

Let me clear something up: The downside to open burners is that you can't control boil off. Methanol's lower vapor pressure, which makes it easier to use in cold weather, also means that it boils easier than ethanol. And more can boil off than can burn. You can smell the unburned alcohol and you can see it collect on the bottom of a cold pan. You could probably setup a condenser (think moonshine still) and extract the unburned alcohol out of the exhaust.

Probably the better way to conduct your test would be to try it in the cold and with different burners. You really need at least two data points to draw any conclusions.

[mrclean417]

You mean, in his example, the Ethanol was more efficient with his stove at those temperatures. At lower temperatures Methanol may be the way to go and in some instances a totally different stove will be needed. To go to extremes you won't be using Kerosene or Gasoline in the same stove that you're using two closely propertied versions of alcohol.

[mrclean417]

I like to think that if things aren't quite clear I can make them totally confusing in a simple paragraph.

It's not much but its what I do.

[hikin_jim]

Do you have data showing that it requires measurably more methanol than ethanol to boil the same amount of water?
With my two Caldera Cone set ups, I was getting a boil with 18ml of high ethanol content alcohol and 24ml with HEET (99% methanol). That's a ratio of 1:1.6 if I'm doing my math correctly. When put in terms of weight, it takes about 5 additional grams of methanol to do the same amount of cooking.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

...there is something you need to remember about fuels - operation is more important than efficiency. Methanol's lower vapor pressure makes it a much better choice for cold weather. And unless you are measuring the flue gasses, you have no idea whether or not your particular stove uses methanol efficiently. Ethanol has a higher heat content per gram than methanol. The results from my testing seem to reflect the physical characteristics of the fuels used. I suppose if one were to be really rigorous, one would conduct such tests with a cross section of the alcohol stoves out there.

I've only done ethanol vs. methanol tests of the type described on my blog with Caldera Cones, however, my experience with my DIY stoves, while I wasn't writing down fuel consumption numbers and such was about the same.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

Let me clear something up: The downside to open burners is that you can't control boil off. Methanol's lower vapor pressure, which makes it easier to use in cold weather, also means that it boils easier than ethanol. And more can boil off than can burn. You can smell the unburned alcohol and you can see it collect on the bottom of a cold pan. You could probably setup a condenser (think moonshine still) and extract the unburned alcohol out of the exhaust.

Probably the better way to conduct your test would be to try it in the cold and with different burners. You really need at least two data points to draw any conclusions. Ah, I see what you're driving at.

YES, in certain temperature ranges, the two alcohols tested will have very different burn characteristics. Particularly as it gets cold, methanol will be the more practical fuel. Practical considerations of course outweigh any theoretical advantage.


HJ

[hikin_jim]

I like to think that if things aren't quite clear I can make them totally confusing in a simple paragraph.

It's not much but its what I do. We appreciate your sharing your gift with us. lol

HJ

[Camping Dave]

Oops, I meant to write $16 per gallon. HEET, and my local Quik-E-Mart and gas station, is about $2.50 per bottle. What are they, 12 oz, so roughly 11 bottles per gallon?

[dla]

I like to think that if things aren't quite clear I can make them totally confusing in a simple paragraph.

It's not much but its what I do.

:)

Thanks - I was having a brain fart when I was rushing to knock out a post. This board doesn't allow us freebies to edit, so I followed one dumb post, with another and another....

[dla]

Ethanol has a higher heat content per gram than methanol. The results from my testing seem to reflect the physical characteristics of the fuels used. I suppose if one were to be really rigorous, one would conduct such tests with a cross section of the alcohol stoves out there.

I've only done ethanol vs. methanol tests of the type described on my blog with Caldera Cones, however, my experience with my DIY stoves, while I wasn't writing down fuel consumption numbers and such was about the same.

HJ

You really can't judge the efficiency based on the btu/gal. The useful metrics are (a)the BTU/hr generated, (b) the amount of fuel used, (c) ambient conditions and (d) burner type. I know that Iditarod racers are fond of Heet powered burners, and I doubt many folks will encounter worse conditions. But Parks brand Denatured (90% ethanol) would be a better choice in the summer. Operation over a wide temp range is the reason why SLX brand denatured, advertised as stove fuel, is a 50/50 mix of methanol/ethanol.

To me, the worst case is when the temps are in the 20's, there's a little wind blowing, my fingers are cold and I want lunch and a cup of coffee. What I've discovered is that the lowly alcohol stove, (my fave is the Trangia), works pretty good.

[kayak karl]

if your on the trail denatured will be the easiest to get. heet second. other stuff will be hard to find.

[hikin_jim]

if your on the trail denatured will be the easiest to get. heet second. other stuff will be hard to find. Interesting. I would have thought HEET would be easiest to find since gas stations will frequently carry it.

I guess though that a lot of gas stations are going to stop carrying it now that gasoline contains something like 10% ethanol. Kind of makes the HEET redundant.

I guess denatured is available from paint and hardware stores. Even fairly small towns should have a general store that might carry either HEET or some brand of denatured alcohol.

HJ

[hikin_jim]

You really can't judge the efficiency based on the btu/gal. The useful metrics are (a)the BTU/hr generated, (b) the amount of fuel used, (c) ambient conditions and (d) burner type. I know that Iditarod racers are fond of Heet powered burners, and I doubt many folks will encounter worse conditions. But Parks brand Denatured (90% ethanol) would be a better choice in the summer. Operation over a wide temp range is the reason why SLX brand denatured, advertised as stove fuel, is a 50/50 mix of methanol/ethanol.

To me, the worst case is when the temps are in the 20's, there's a little wind blowing, my fingers are cold and I want lunch and a cup of coffee. What I've discovered is that the lowly alcohol stove, (my fave is the Trangia), works pretty good.

Efficiency shmiffiency! I think we'd all agree that a stove's got to work. In cold weather, methanol is your go-to alcohol fuel. The fact that ethanol has more potential heat is of little solace if you can't reasonably cook dinner.

The tests I did were at about 50F/10C (a little colder in the morning when I started, a little warmer in the afternoon when the clouds broke up). The results I got should be relevant for people hiking in weather around those temperatures or warmer.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

ok where do we get ethanol? - without blowing us up!

[hikin_jim]

Relax, WOO, it's not explosive. Now, what happens to your personality after you drink it, now that might be explosive. :)

It's pretty tough to get high concentration ethanol unless you want to pay the $$$'s for Everclear. Sunnyside denatured alcohol and Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol have good ethanol content and are more reasonably priced.

HJ

[Rasty]

Hmmm...I love the smell of burnt hair in the morning!:)A few years ago a gave myself a 400,000btu hair cut (eye lashes & eye brows also) lighting a commercial LP broiler. Kind of looked like a cross between Friar Tuck and Uncle Fester. Cooking professionally I have burned everything from my foot to my eyeball.

[ALLEGHENY]

Good discussion. Thanks for all you do. When I read in the companion that a place sells ethanol by the ounce, what are they charging?

[Bearbait]

Guys be very careful handling Methanol. If Methanol finds it's way into your body, cuts on your hands, inhalation, contamination with food or drink, it will never leave you. Your body can not process out this chemical. Continued exposure over time can cause blindness, cataracts, and liver damage. That said, I use it all the time, but I am very careful not to expose myself while handling it and I never carry it in or near my pots and food bag.

[hikin_jim]

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the problem with methanol is not so much that it doesn't break down but rather what it breaks down in to: formaldehyde and formic acid. It's the break down components that cause the neurological damage as I understand it.

But I guess the way it screws you up isn't too important. What's important to know is that methanol is toxic and due care is necessary. As long as you're reasonable careful and DON'T DRINK THE STUFF, you should be OK.

HJ

[Bearbait]

I work with thousands of gallons of this stuff at the Chemical Plant where I work. It will not break down.

[dla]

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the problem with methanol is not so much that it doesn't break down but rather what it breaks down in to: formaldehyde and formic acid. It's the break down components that cause the neurological damage as I understand it.

But I guess the way it screws you up isn't too important. What's important to know is that methanol is toxic and due care is necessary. As long as you're reasonable careful and DON'T DRINK THE STUFF, you should be OK.

HJ

Methanol will absorb through your skin. Look up the MSDS on the stuff. It will not break down safely in the body. In fact, the standard treatment is to flood the victim's system with ethanol so that the liver can't break down the methanol into toxic products.

[moytoy]

Methanol will absorb through your skin. Look up the MSDS on the stuff. It will not break down safely in the body. In fact, the standard treatment is to flood the victim's system with ethanol so that the liver can't break down the methanol into toxic products.
Is Jack Daniels a good flooding agent?

[hikin_jim]

That ought to do it. Never can tell with methanol. You probably should drink JD the whole time you're on the trail just to be safe. Purely for medicinal reasons of course.

HJ

[moytoy]

:) I'm cooking with methanol 5 days a week every week. I see a rehab in my future! Maybe I should switch back to 90 per cent ethanol to cook with so then I can lay off the JD!

[dla]

That ought to do it. Never can tell with methanol. You probably should drink JD the whole time you're on the trail just to be safe. Purely for medicinal reasons of course.

HJ

Look, I'm glad to see you mining this forum to flesh out your blog, but with a little knowledge comes some responsibility. Don't underestimate the danger of Methanol and put something to that effect in your blog. Otherwise the surviving families of noobs, who hired Slime & Rodent LLC to represent them, may search your pockets.

[hikin_jim]

Hi, dla,

Point very well taken. Methanol should be handled properly at all times. That particular comment (about Jack Daniels) was intended as a joke.

I do think that methanol can be used safely if used with reasonable care. I personally avoid getting it on my hands by using a squeeze bottle. My favorite arrangement is a squeeze bottle with a Packafeather cap. I get little or no splashing and have excellent control.

I only burn methanol outdoors in a well ventilated area. It burns pretty cleanly, but still, better to be careful than not.

I never stove food in the same container as methanol.

My alcohol squeeze bottle goes inside a Ziploc bag, sometimes two, which in turn usually goes in my cook pot which a) prevents squeezing and b) prevents damage to the Ziplocs. I've never had a spill escape the Ziploc bag, but I have had some leaks with fuel stored in a Trangia burner. I was glad I had taken the precaution of storing the burner in a Ziploc bag. My cook pot goes into yet another Ziploc bag. Keeps soot off the pack but would also prevent any alcohol from getting into other things.

I always inspect my pot before cooking. I've never had a problem possibly because I'm pretty cautious.

Always avoid getting methanol on your hands. If you do, wipe it off. Avoid methanol fumes both from unburned methanol and from methanol undergoing combustion. And NEVER, EVER, UNDER *ANY* CIRCUMSTANCES drink methanol. Ingesting it is the number one most dangerous thing you can do; all else pales by comparison. If you ingest methanol, you might very well die a very painful death. Even if you get to a hospital, your chances are NOT good from what I've read. I strongly suggest that drink bottles NOT be used for methanol storage. It doesn't take much if you drink the stuff.

HJ

[moytoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDTOPlpdKY

[moytoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDTOPlpdKY To be clear this guy was drinking something other than methanol. When I was a teenager there was false information going around. The story was that wood alcohol could be ingested if filtered through a loaf of bread. We had a town drunk try it and he died.

[Camping Dave]

Methanol MSDS: http://www.midi-inc.com/pdf/MSDS_Methanol.pdf
(http://www.midi-inc.com/pdf/MSDS_Methanol.pdf)
Danger! Poison! May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. Vapor harmful. Flammable liquid and
vapor. Harmful if swallowed, inhaled, or absorbed through the skin. Causes eye, skin, and respiratory tract
irritation. May cause central nervous system depression. Cannot be made non-poisonous.
Target Organs: Eyes, nervous system, optic nerve.

[Wise Old Owl]

Yea Camping Dave - we went down that pike about two years ago when I got on a bender about people putting these alcohols in soda bottles....

Did anyone answer where I can get this stuff - or do I stop at a paint store and get a gallon?

[hikin_jim]

Which one you looking for, WOO?

Klean Strip Green Denatured is available at Home Depot
Sunnyside brand is good, but I don't know a National Chain that carries it. I buy mine at the Do It Center.
Klean Strip SLX Denatured is available at Home Depot
HEET can be bought at Walmart. It's pretty cheap in the four pack. Sometimes it goes on sale in the spring.

Pretty much any paint or hardware store will have some kind of denatured alcohol. You'd have to look at the MSDS to see what's in them. Buying by the gallon is cheap. By the quart is expensive. HEET comes in 12 oz bottles, but is still pretty cheap, and as mentioned earlier, you want the yellow HEET not the Iso-HEET that comes in a red bottle.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Relax, WOO, it's not explosive. Now, what happens to your personality after you drink it, now that might be explosive. :)

It's pretty tough to get high concentration ethanol unless you want to pay the $$$'s for Everclear. Sunnyside denatured alcohol and Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol have good ethanol content and are more reasonably priced.

HJ

Everclear is illegal in PA and is 100 proof alcohol. We have to get to Wilmington De to buy that. Everything else is cool

[mkmangold]

Yes... Generally, "drinking grade" alcohol just contains ethanol, water, and flavoring/coloring agents (very minor amounts). 190 proof (95% ethanol) is about the highest concentration of "drinking grade" alcohol you can get. 150 proof (75% ethanol) is another popular composition.HJI once had this idea about removing the alcohol and water from various wines. Then, for camping, bring along Everclear (only where legal) and use it for fuel. Later at night, if you're so inclined add the wine-flavored powder back into the right proportions of water and Everclear and drink to your well-planned dayAlso, can E85 be used in alcohol stoves. Around here, it's about $3.20/gallon.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Guys be very careful handling Methanol. If Methanol finds it's way into your body, cuts on your hands, inhalation, contamination with food or drink, it will never leave you. Your body can not process out this chemical.
You are mistaken.


Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the problem with methanol is not so much that it doesn't break down but rather what it breaks down in to: formaldehyde and formic acid. It's the break down components that cause the neurological damage as I understand it.

But I guess the way it screws you up isn't too important. What's important to know is that methanol is toxic and due care is necessary. As long as you're reasonable careful and DON'T DRINK THE STUFF, you should be OK.

HJ
You are correct. ANd it tends to first attack the optic nerves, hence all the blind drunk methanol stories (which are true).


I work with thousands of gallons of this stuff at the Chemical Plant where I work. It will not break down.Again, you are mistaken. It does break down and it is the metabolized (broken down) by-products that poison you (formaldehyde to formic acid). That is why the antidote is to flood the body with ethanol. This is called competitive inhibition - there is so much ethanol by percentage that much less of the methanol gets metabolized, most is excreted prior to metabolization via evaporation from the lungs and as liquid from the kidneys, and that methanol which does get metabolized is then also metabolized over a longer period.


Methanol will absorb through your skin. Look up the MSDS on the stuff. It will not break down safely in the body. In fact, the standard treatment is to flood the victim's system with ethanol so that the liver can't break down the methanol into toxic products. The amount that would enter via incidental skin contact from filling a camp stove is not going to cause methanol poisoning - unless you bathed in it.

And FWIW, methanol occurs naturally in small amounts in almost all fruits and juices. You know, that healthy stuff most of us never eat enough of Hey, don't go drinking the stuff, it is toxic even in small (an ounce or two quantities). But any spilled in your pot will evaporate, and a drop or two orally or what gets on your skin isn't.

[hikin_jim]

You are mistaken.


You are correct. ANd it tends to first attack the optic nerves, hence all the blind drunk methanol stories (which are true).

Again, you are mistaken. It does break down and it is the metabolized (broken down) by-products that poison you (formaldehyde to formic acid). That is why the antidote is to flood the body with ethanol. This is called competitive inhibition - there is so much ethanol by percentage that much less of the methanol gets metabolized, most is excreted prior to metabolization via evaporation from the lungs and as liquid from the kidneys, and that methanol which does get metabolized is then also metabolized over a longer period.

The amount that would enter via incidental skin contact from filling a camp stove is not going to cause methanol poisoning - unless you bathed in it.

And FWIW, methanol occurs naturally in small amounts in almost all fruits and juices. You know, that healthy stuff most of us never eat enough of Hey, don't go drinking the stuff, it is toxic even in small (an ounce or two quantities). But any spilled in your pot will evaporate, and a drop or two orally or what gets on your skin isn't. Interesting. What you're saying is more in line with my understanding of the toxicity of methanol.

I've been using methanol in various forms for stove fuel for several years. No ill effects as yet.

HOWEVER, better safe than sorry. Based on our discussion here, I put together a new post: Methanol -- Safe Handling (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/12/methanol-safe-handling.html). Have a look if you all have a chance and give me your feed back.

HJ

[4eyedbuzzard]

Interesting. What you're saying is more in line with my understanding of the toxicity of methanol.

I've been using methanol in various forms for stove fuel for several years. No ill effects as yet.

HOWEVER, better safe than sorry. Based on our discussion here, I put together a new post: Methanol -- Safe Handling (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/12/methanol-safe-handling.html). Have a look if you all have a chance and give me your feed back.

HJLooks reasonable. A good warning without craziness.

[hikin_jim]

Thanks. I was trying to come up with something balanced as well as practical.

HJ

[dla]

Unfortunately some people think they can use it to wash their hands, wipe their faces, mosquito repellant, bug bites, kill head lice, etc. That's why there's a warning - it is toxic.

[hikin_jim]

Unfortunately some people think they can use it to wash their hands, wipe their faces, mosquito repellant, bug bites, kill head lice, etc. That's why there's a warning - it is toxic. Hmm. Maybe I'd better add an admonition to that effect on my blog. Ethanol might be OK for some of those applications, but not methanol.

HJ

[moytoy]

I think the biggest threat methanol poses is to children. Because we repackage it for our own specialized use it could be mistaken for something to drink. DO NOT leave it where kids can get into it. Adults handleing any kind of chemical should learn the dangers before using it.

[Camping Dave]

Yea Camping Dave - we went down that pike about two years ago when I got on a bender about people putting these alcohols in soda bottles....


Really, you remember stuff from 2 years ago? You should change your name to wise old elephant.

[Odd Man Out]

The methanol thread keeps coming up over and over.

Yes it is metabolized and the body naturally can deal with small (trace) amounts that you might get from incidental contact/fumes. Drink it - you die. Allow someone else to get a hold of your methanol and accidentally drink it - even worse - so be sure to label well.

I doubt the fumes from a burning stove are worse from methanol than ethanol. Alcohol stoves burn very efficiently so not much unburned fuel should be released. I would think that carbon monoxide from partially burned fuel is the real problem there, and that can be just as much a problem with ethanol. So don't burn your stove indoors.

BTW, Nutra Sweet is a methyl ester of a dipeptide, so when that is hydrolyzed, you produce methanol. It's not a big deal since you only produce milligram (maybe microgram) amounts.

[hikin_jim]

Yeah, I don't think it's necessary to get paranoid about methanol. Reasonable care? Yes. Paranoid? No. I burn methanol outside and not in an enclosed space, but that's a precaution, not a life and death necessity. Methanol burns very cleanly. I went ahead and updated my blog post on methanol safe handling (adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/12/methanol-safe-handling.html) per some of the remarks here in this thread. HJ

[dla]

The methanol thread keeps coming up over and over.

Yes it is metabolized and the body naturally can deal with small (trace) amounts that you might get from incidental contact/fumes. Drink it - you die. Allow someone else to get a hold of your methanol and accidentally drink it - even worse - so be sure to label well.

I doubt the fumes from a burning stove are worse from methanol than ethanol. Alcohol stoves burn very efficiently so not much unburned fuel should be released. I would think that carbon monoxide from partially burned fuel is the real problem there, and that can be just as much a problem with ethanol. So don't burn your stove indoors.

BTW, Nutra Sweet is a methyl ester of a dipeptide, so when that is hydrolyzed, you produce methanol. It's not a big deal since you only produce milligram (maybe microgram) amounts.

Burning Methanol produces formaldehyde. And it is a crap shoot on burner efficiency. Methanol is a great fuel, but it is dangerous and requires much more respect than Ethanol. Your child will survive a swallow of Parks brand denatured. Your child will be a memory from a swallow of yellow bottle heat. Not sure why this is so hard to understand except to say that obviously folks haven't read the MSDS on the stuff.

[Rocketman]

If adults handling dangerous chemical don't know the dangers, their kids should be taught then. Let the old fools pay the consequences of not knowing, but by all means, save the children from ignorance.

[hikin_jim]

by all means, save the children from ignorance. Yeah, maybe that's worth noting too.

Thanks,

HJ

[hikin_jim]

Blog accordingly updated.

Thanks for the input.

HJ

[kayak karl]

Interesting. I would have thought HEET would be easiest to find since gas stations will frequently carry it.

I guess though that a lot of gas stations are going to stop carrying it now that gasoline contains something like 10% ethanol. Kind of makes the HEET redundant.

I guess denatured is available from paint and hardware stores. Even fairly small towns should have a general store that might carry either HEET or some brand of denatured alcohol.

HJ

talking about hostels and placers where there are no petrel stations. there are only a few towns on some stretches.

[hikin_jim]

Ah. Gotcha.

Well, whether HEET is available or denatured, either should do pretty well.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Let me clear something up: The downside to open burners is that you can't control boil off. Methanol's lower vapor pressure, which makes it easier to use in cold weather, also means that it boils easier than ethanol. And more can boil off than can burn. You can smell the unburned alcohol and you can see it collect on the bottom of a cold pan. You could probably setup a condenser (think moonshine still) and extract the unburned alcohol out of the exhaust.

Or get the first ten gallons from a shiner?

I will be the first to say I would like to see this in a Youtube... Nothing wrong with the explanation, just needs definition.



if your on the trail denatured will be the easiest to get. heet second. other stuff will be hard to find.

Maildrops? - or inform folks along the trail


Relax, WOO, it's not explosive. Now, what happens to your personality after you drink it, now that might be explosive. :)

It's pretty tough to get high concentration ethanol unless you want to pay the $$$'s for Everclear. Sunnyside denatured alcohol and Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol have good ethanol content and are more reasonably priced.

HJ

Yes it is - some alcohol stoves are pressurized and I have had one explode and my clothing burned off of me.


Guys be very careful handling Methanol. If Methanol finds it's way into your body, cuts on your hands, inhalation, contamination with food or drink, it will never leave you. Your body can not process out this chemical. Continued exposure over time can cause blindness, cataracts, and liver damage. That said, I use it all the time, but I am very careful not to expose myself while handling it and I never carry it in or near my pots and food bag.


Interesting. What you're saying is more in line with my understanding of the toxicity of methanol.

I've been using methanol in various forms for stove fuel for several years. No ill effects as yet.

HOWEVER, better safe than sorry. Based on our discussion here, I put together a new post: Methanol -- Safe Handling (http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/12/methanol-safe-handling.html). Have a look if you all have a chance and give me your feed backHJ

4 eye raises good information. Can't wait to see it.


I think the biggest threat methanol poses is to children. Because we repackage it for our own specialized use it could be mistaken for something to drink. DO NOT leave it where kids can get into it. Adults handling any kind of chemical should learn the dangers before using it.

This comes off as a misconception... Moytoy - sounds like the very fears the news is conditioning for us to be very afraid. Although good advice you gave - the numbers and hospital tracking of incidents is so low its not charted even for stupid adults.... last charting or study was in 1930 "from the Internet and the NY papers" - 14 people accidentally drank this in NY in that year.

Here is a different take not to take light - ASPIRIN is DANGEROUS it contains BIRD PISS! ohh wait some old folk are on a aspirin regimen for heart health.

Why would I write that... frustration we are an educated lot of folk. everyday in my job people tell me they are sensitive to chemicals and they use underarm deodorant. - the stuff has a government Warning. Yet they think pest control is DANGEROUS... its not... it regulated... its more about an informed client.



Really, you remember stuff from 2 years ago? You should change your name to wise old elephant.

There is a story behind that, I am not quite sure how to take your post.... people were putting methanol in soda bottles for their lightness - I called them on it and got burned... I was trying to inform - not teach - and it backfired.... so I looked at what you wrote and I went "oh wow -hmmm yea good luck with that...." Its the INTERNET not personal.

Fyi - I am walking down a hall in college (a state away) and I see a woman that clearly was memorable. It was Blair Weir from 2nd grade all grown up, and I had not seen her since... we didn't even have the same class - just from the bus trip.... she was stunned that I picked her out.This is the best example. I have done that many times.. yea damned elephant.... Its good to remember people.

[hikin_jim]

Hey, woo,

At least they're comparing your memory to that of an elephant's. God forbid that anyone should mistake your waistline for that of an elephant. ;)

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Ouch........ Too many mice

[atraildreamer]

I guess though that a lot of gas stations are going to stop carrying it now that gasoline contains something like 10% ethanol. Kind of makes the HEET redundant.HJ

A knowledgeable mechanic friend of mine said that the 10% ethanol in the gas does not have the same water absorbing qualities as methanol. This is possibly due to he fact that ethanol is extremely hydoscopic{?} (likes to absorb water). The ethanol in the gas probably has absorbed all the water it can hold (about 5%) prior to blending. I still use a Heet Yellow every fill-up in the winter months.

An afterthought: :-? If ethanol absorbs 5% of it weight in water, and there is a 10% concentration in our gas, then does that mean that there is
0.64 ounces of water in every gallon of gas we buy? :confused: (128 ounces/gallon x .10 x 0.05= 0.64 ounces water/gallon). In a typical 15 gallon tank, that is 9.6 ounces of water! Multiply that by millions of cars. :eek: We are being charged outrageous prices for a watered down product! What a racket! :mad:

[hikin_jim]

A knowledgeable mechanic friend of mine said that the 10% ethanol in the gas does not have the same water absorbing qualities as methanol. Interesting. I really don't know about how much water is already absorbed into the gasoline we buy. Interesting question. Maybe I'll ask around about that.

HJ

[mkmangold]

Here is a very practical question: has anyone done the research and number crunching to find out just how many people have been poisoned and/or killed by methanol on the AT or any long trail for that matter? I'd also like to find out how many people have been harmed by eating those little dessication packs that have the warning "Do Not Eat" printed right on the pack.

[atraildreamer]

Here is a very practical question: has anyone done the research and number crunching to find out just how many people have been poisoned and/or killed by methanol on the AT or any long trail for that matter? I'd also like to find out how many people have been harmed by eating those little dessication packs that have the warning "Do Not Eat" printed right on the pack.

How many people eat the little labels that are stuck on pieces of fruit?

[Wise Old Owl]

Here is a very practical question: has anyone done the research and number crunching to find out just how many people have been poisoned and/or killed by methanol on the AT or any long trail for that matter? I'd also like to find out how many people have been harmed by eating those little dessication packs that have the warning "Do Not Eat" printed right on the pack.

I did look into it, most articals that tracked in were during the prohibition times such as "60 people died in NYC" from alcohol poisoning.... its not been tracked since.

[Wise Old Owl]

Everclear or pure Ethanol was a disappointment, Taking the above measurements 20 ml of Ethanol boiled water a little longer than six minutes. So Ethanol is not as hot and it burns slightly slower. It did keep going for an extra minute after achieving temp. But thats a two minute difference over Methanol.

It also shows up in how the stove preforms, Methanol burns a deep almost unsee-able blue. Ethanol is more yellow - therefor cooler. Everclear is 180 proof and just nasty...... can't imagine drinking it.

[rocketsocks]

boy, that'll take your Hoo away!Quick too!

[rocketsocks]

Maybe even leave you Hooless:D

[Wise Old Owl]

The methanol thread keeps coming up over and over.

Yes it is metabolized and the body naturally can deal with small (trace) amounts that you might get from incidental contact/fumes. Drink it - you die. Allow someone else to get a hold of your methanol and accidentally drink it - even worse - so be sure to label well.

I doubt the fumes from a burning stove are worse from methanol than ethanol. Alcohol stoves burn very efficiently so not much unburned fuel should be released. I would think that carbon monoxide from partially burned fuel is the real problem there, and that can be just as much a problem with ethanol. So don't burn your stove indoors.

BTW, Nutra Sweet is a methyl ester of a dipeptide, so when that is hydrolyzed, you produce methanol. It's not a big deal since you only produce milligram (maybe microgram) amounts.

There are clear differences after three 20 ml burns of Methanol in the kitchen my throat hurt like hell the rest of the night.

[JAK]

I don't think the problem is with carbon monoxide. Not enough fuel, and too clean burning, and symptoms with carbon monoxide poisoning would be lack of oxygen to the brain, not throat and lung irritation. Potential problems with alcohol fuels involving inhalation would be stuff other than methanol or ethanol or isopropanol that might be in the fuel, such as petroleum distilates and stuff. Also, if you had galvanized steel and some other metals in your stove design that has some potential also for causing irritation problems. All fumes can be nasty, but some more nasty than others. If it doesn't feel good for you, it probably isn't. I love wood smoke though, even though its not good for you either, and again some worse than others

[Franco]

There are two types of Everclear: 75%(151 proof ) and 95%(190 proof) pure Ethanol, the rest is water.
So the 190 proof corresponds, in Ethanol content, to the stuff we buy here in Aussie, the other does not.

Franco