PDA

View Full Version : Four hikers stranded in Smokies



Goon
03-09-2005, 10:57
Just saw this on the news. Four young hikers stuck in a shelter on the AT in the Smokies suffering from hypothermia.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/11090319.htm

FoxNews is reporting that a group of backpackers found them, some stayed to keep them as warm as possible while others went for help. Rangers are attempting a rescue this morning.

RockyTrail
03-09-2005, 11:20
Here's another link, doesn't require registration:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149865,00.html

Youngblood
03-09-2005, 12:04
Derrick Knob Shelter (4880') is about 22 miles north of Fontana Dam... and we all hope that they and all on the other folks involved come out okay. I wouldn't want to be at high elevations in these storms. I'm sure we all feel for the hikers caught out there.

Youngblood

SavageLlama
03-09-2005, 12:21
Rangers Try to Rescue 4 Hikers in Tenn
March 9, 2005
10:15 am
Associated Press Newswires (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow(%20'FIISrcDetails','?from=article&ids=aprs');void(0);)

GATLINBURG, Tenn. (AP) - National Park Service rangers set out Wednesday to rescue four young men who became stranded in snow while hiking the Appalachian Trail.

One of the young men was showing signs of hypothermia, including vomiting and slurred speech, said Nancy Gray, a spokeswoman for Great Smoky Mountains National Park in eastern Tennessee.

Three rangers, one a medic, set out by all-terrain vehicle and on foot to reach the three-sided hikers shelter where the four were stranded.

The men, ages 18-20, started out at Fontana Lake, N.C., during good weather on Sunday with plans to hike the 71 miles of the Appalachian Trail in the park.

However, they were "ill equipped" when rain started falling Monday and then turned to snow, Gray said.

About 8 inches of snow was on the ground by the time six backpackers came across the four hikers about noon Tuesday. Four backpackers stayed with them and the other two went for help.

Gray said park officials were assembling litter teams in case anyone needs to be carried out and had put a rescue helicopter on standby.

The park straddles the line between North Carolina and Tennessee and is the most visited of the national parks.

------

Park trying to rescue four hikers stranded on Appalachian Trail


March 9, 2005
09:50 am
Associated Press Newswires (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow(%20'FIISrcDetails','?from=article&ids=aprs');void(0);)

GATLINBURG, Tenn. (AP) - Great Smoky Mountains National Park officials were working Wednesday to rescue four young men who became stranded in snow while hiking the Appalachian Trail.

Park spokeswoman Nancy Gray said one of the four was showing signs of hypothermia, including vomiting and slurred speech, and the others were too wet and cold to hike back out. Three rangers, one a medic, set out at 7 a.m. by all-terrain vehicle and foot to reach the three-sided shelter where the four were stranded.

The men, ages 18-20, started out at Fontana Lake, N.C., during good weather on Sunday with plans to hike the 71 miles of the Appalachian Trail in the park. But they were "ill equipped" when it began to rain Monday and then turned to snow, Gray said.

About 8 inches of snow was on the ground where the stranded party was found by six backpackers about noon Tuesday. Four hikers stayed behind while two others went for help.

Gray said the hikers, whose names were not released, were in the Derrick Knob shelter, about 8 1/2 miles from the Tremont Institute, on the Tennessee side of the park. The elevation there is 4,880 feet.

Once the rangers reach the hikers, they will assess how best to get them out. Gray said park officials were assembling litter teams in case someone needs to be carried out and had put a rescue helicopter on standby.

Great Smoky Mountains National Park straddles the border between North Carolina and Tennessee and is the most visited of the national parks.

# # #
On the Net:

Park: http://www.nps.gov/grsm/index.htm

Sly
03-09-2005, 12:50
Judging by the snow that can be seen in the mountains surrounding Asheville, if the hikers dropped down a couple hundred feet, there'd probably be no problem. Regardless, 8" of snow isn't an awful lot.

Even the cheap Park Service map shows a number of trails where they could have bailed.

I have to wonder what "ill-equipped" means in this case. Hiking in jeans, not carrying proper rain or cold weather gear?

Percival
03-09-2005, 12:56
Nature should be allowed to take its course with these four fools. Obviously they have parts missing upstairs, and this is nature's way of weeding out such botch jobs. "Rescue" these fools and they'll be a drag on society forever.

Sly
03-09-2005, 13:05
Nature should be allowed to take its course with these four fools. Obviously they have parts missing upstairs, and this is nature's way of weeding out such botch jobs. "Rescue" these fools and they'll be a drag on society forever.

LOL... That's one way of putting it. ;)

Bjorkin
03-09-2005, 13:39
Nature should be allowed to take its course with these four fools. Obviously they have parts missing upstairs, and this is nature's way of weeding out such botch jobs. "Rescue" these fools and they'll be a drag on society forever.

Guess you never made a mistake when you were 18. :-? Congrats.

Seems like these boys went hiking for Spring Break as thousands of other college kids around the country are doing. They left on a nice day and got caught in a storm due to poor planning and inexperience. Same thing could have happened to any of those other college kids. Young and niave yes, but wishing them dead? Hope I never need to rely upon you.

Goon
03-09-2005, 15:01
I've done quite a few foolish things in my 35 years, and hope to do many more before I take the big dirt nap.

Goon
03-09-2005, 15:05
Good... they are all doing well.

--
Rescuers Reach Stranded N.C. State Students

By ABC 11 Eyewitness News and The Associated Press
(03/09/05 -- GATLINBURG, TENN.) — Rescuers have reached four hikers stranded on the Appalchian Trail. <!-- This is for the middle ad ---> <table class="articleimagetd" align="right" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="175"><tbody><tr><td class="articleimagetable" width="175">http://abclocal.go.com/images/0309_hikers.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table> An assessment team reached the four N.C. State students just before noon Wednesday. Rescuers tell Eyewitness News that the hikers were cold and wet. One student, Matthew Schultz was showing signs of hypothermia, including vomiting and slurred speech. An Army National Guard helicopter flew him to a Knoxville hospital as a precaution. The remaining hikers, Ivan Saldarriaga, Brian Hendrick and another whose name was not given, are hiking back and should be out by late afternoon.

The group started out at Fontana Lake during good weather on Sunday, with plans to hike the Appalachian Trail. A park spokeswoman says they were "ill equipped" when it began to rain Monday and eventually snowed. They spent the last few nights in the Derrick Knob shelter, at an elevation of about 4,800 feet.

The National Park Service says the four students were on spring break.




http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/news/030905_NW_hikers.html

tlbj6142
03-09-2005, 16:30
Even if the weather is real bad, you ought to have enough gear to hike out in sub-20F temps. 8" of snow isn't all that much.

I know I've hike in mid top/bottoms, hardshell, trail pants, hat and gloves in ~18F temps and high winds in the smokies a couple of year ago. I was fine while I was hiking, but once I stopped I was freezing.

There must have been trails that could have led them to a road within 8-10 miles.

Seems to me more like they stopped because the weather was bad and refused to get started again once they realized they were ill equipt to stay.

They probably could have been to safty in a couple of hours after leaving the shelter.

Sly
03-09-2005, 16:33
I'm waiting to hear how they had a cellphone and thought they were all set. :D

leeki pole
03-09-2005, 16:36
Yup, there's a trail right there at Derrick Knob that leads to Tremont and a ranger station according to my map. If memory serves, it's not more than 5 or 6 miles. Seems like I'd have been warmer walking than freezing my buns off in a shelter at 4800 feet. That is, if no one was injured.

Lone Wolf
03-09-2005, 16:38
About 1/2 mile north of Derrick Knob Shelter is a side trail, Greenbrier Ridge Trail, that would have taken them out and off the ridge quickly. Guess they didn't read maps or were too skeered to move. Too much media hype.

bulldog49
03-09-2005, 16:53
Nature should be allowed to take its course with these four fools. Obviously they have parts missing upstairs, and this is nature's way of weeding out such botch jobs. "Rescue" these fools and they'll be a drag on society forever.


It's called Natural Selection. :rolleyes:

dp the wonder dog
03-09-2005, 16:55
i view this as one more step towards us having to "be approved", permitted, licensed or whatever to go into the woods.... people keep doing this, and we'll find the back country "closed" Oct 1 to May 1. :(

neo
03-09-2005, 18:16
Nature should be allowed to take its course with these four fools. Obviously they have parts missing upstairs, and this is nature's way of weeding out such botch jobs. "Rescue" these fools and they'll be a drag on society forever.

every time hikers are in dire straights from getting caught in bad weather i
this little puke percival makes fun of this,he laughed about david dinnwittie misfortune in the smokies back in december,your day is coming percival,
misfortune of other is nothing to laugh about:sun neo

Red Hat
03-09-2005, 18:51
I leave on Saturday for Springer. When my husband heard this he freaked out! I tried explaining that they were hiking in blue jeans and that cotton kills, but it didn't matter. I have my equipment packed and I know what I'm doing. Most hikers are prepared for problems, especially weather.

SGT Rock
03-09-2005, 19:00
Just remind him that it was the 6 other hikers that hiked through just fine and helped the poor souls out. You might be a hero on your hike :D

One Leg
03-09-2005, 19:29
http://www.wbir.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=23917
UPDATE: All stranded Smokies hikers safe after snowy ordeal


The weakest of the four stranded college students found shivering in a snowy Smokies shelter on Tuesday has been sent to Knoxville for medical treatment.

Six backpackers from Messiah College in Pennsylvania found the four stranded and ill-equipped hikers -- all associated with North Carolina State University -- in the Derrick Knob shelter Wednesday.

Four of the Messiah College backpackers stayed to aid them, while the other two hiked out to summon help.

Nancy Gray of the National Park Service says the backpackers reported the stranded hikers were cold and wet, and one of them was showing signs of hypothermia, including slurred speech.

Gray says the N.C. State hikers began their trek at Fontana Lake on Sunday in good weather, but conditions deteriorated to rain Monday and snow Tuesday. About eight inches of snow has fallen at the elevation where the hikers were found in a three-sided shelter eight and a half miles above Tremont.

A medical assessment team hiked in to assist the ailing individuals, and determined that 19-year-old Ivan Salearraiga was too weak to hike out.

Salearraiga was flown by Blackhawk helicopter to the University of Tennessee Medical Center at around noon on Wednesday. His vital signs were listed as stable and he is expected to make a full recovery.

The other three hikers are walking out of the Park Wednesday, accompanied by the four Messiah College backpackers who stayed behind to help, as well as Park Service rangers.

Chip
03-09-2005, 19:58
First, I am glad to hear these kids are now safe and warm. Too bad this had to happen to them, it is a tough lesson ! Don't know what more any of us can do
(experienced hikers, Forest Service, and hiking clubs) to educate the rookies who get started in backpacking and hiking. There is a world of info out there on how to hike & camp safely, the ten essentials and other stuff that can help them. Hopefully those who are new to this fun pastime and have not left yet for there AT trek will take heed from this story and properly prepare. As far as learning the hard way in life... well I've made mistakes too & will probably make a few more before I get to the end of the trail.

Chip ;)

Lone Wolf
03-09-2005, 20:05
Much ado about nothing really. Just inexperienced kids. Certainly doesn't deserve all the friggin attention.

SGT Rock
03-09-2005, 20:07
Gives us something to gossip about ;)

saimyoji
03-09-2005, 20:31
I heard one of them was carrying a concealed sword. :eek:

hikerjohnd
03-09-2005, 21:38
My folks called me this evening - they heard about this. I told them to be sure and read about the hikers being 'ill equiped'. I feel bad that they needed rescued and all, but this couldn't have happened at a worse time! :datz

tombone
03-09-2005, 23:46
to stay put in the shelter. The greenbrier ridge trail would not have been a wise option. It is unblazed and the first mile loses hardly any elevation. In fact, the start of the trail actually climbs away from the AT. 8" of snow in drifts would make the greenbrier ridge trail difficult to follow and they could easily have wandered off through the snow into one of the incredibly rough and choked hollows on the tennessee side. It they made it down the trail, they would have had to then walk a long way out the road, which was most likely gated way back at tremont. That is a long and demoralizing walk even in good conditions. The greenbrier ridge trail probably had no old postholes to follow, as it gets very little use, especially in winter. There is still plenty of snow down at 2-3000K. Sevier county schools(they crossed into the county about 1 mile south of Derrick Knob LT)were closed tuesday due to the snow which accumulated even under 2K. It sounds like a case of one spring break goup helping out another. This kind of thing occurs almost every spring in GSMNP. They might not have even known that the Greenbrier Ridge Trail lay a short distance to the north on the AT. Hopefully they learned and will return to the backcountry and even pass on their experiences to other less infromed newbies. We were all newbies once.

saimyoji
03-10-2005, 00:20
We're all newbies in one way or another. Ignorance does not equate to stupidity. Let's not be so quick to condescend. Though if they had planned to hike 70 miles, you'd think they would check a weather report. They are college students aren't they?

Frog
03-10-2005, 07:27
The artical said they were ill equiped. Some times all the right equipment can still get you in trouble. Knowledge of the outdoors is the best equipment that one can have. How many of us that can talk about what happened to people that needed to be rescued have tried to teach someone about this. Some people could listen but not learn. All of us on the forums are most likey very experienced in backpacking so some of us should try and get with local outfitters and try and teach if possiable. Just my thoughts. I also wonder that with all the rescues latley will they try and close trails in winter. :eek:

SGT Rock
03-10-2005, 07:59
Just saw the TV news about the four, pictures of them down at Treemont and an interview with one of the hikers. Basically he said they didn't check the weather before going, didn't research what gear to bring, and they brought cotton clothing. Basically did a few key things wrong. They are all alive to learn a lesson they should apply for the next trip.

Never mentioned if they had a cell phone or gun :jump:

Jaybird
03-10-2005, 08:59
i guess they forgot 2 things for their pre-hike check list:


1. WX CHANNEL

2. COTTON IS EVIL!

leeki pole
03-10-2005, 10:21
...a map might have come in handy as well.....

SGT Rock
03-10-2005, 10:50
I was only commenting based on what the hiker said were his own identified mistakes. I figured since they had to register that they most likely got one of those $1 trail maps that would have shown them where the trails were. My gues is since they took about 3 days to cover 22 miles that they saw that trail as too much effort given the condition they were in. I don't know what Derrikk looks like right this second, but last time I was up there it had a tarp covering the entire front, a good fireplace, and firewood stacked inside. They probably thought to hole up until conditions got better and basically froze themselves into bad thinking.

leeki pole
03-10-2005, 11:28
You can read a first-hand account from a thru here...http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=89441

SavageLlama
03-10-2005, 11:28
From the cover of today's local NC paper..


Teen hikers survive storm with pluck, luck
By Tim Simmons
The News & Observer (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow(%20'FIISrcDetails','?from=article&ids=rnob');void(0);)
March 10, 2005

An N.C. State University freshman from Raleigh was rescued by park rangers Wednesday after a brutal spring storm this week stranded him and three friends in the Great Smoky Mountains.

Matthew Schultz, 19, was listed in good condition at the University of Tennessee Medical Center after a Blackhawk helicopter airlifted him from a shelter along the Appalachian Trail. He was suffering from hypothermia.

Those involved say Schultz is alive and his friends were able to hike off the mountain largely because of one good decision and a series of lucky breaks.

"You're 19. You figure you are invincible, right?" said Matthew's mother, Kathy. "I think they realize now just how close to the edge they came. I think I'm just beginning to realize it."

Schultz's journey started when he and three buddies decided to hike the Appalachian Trail over spring break. With him were NCSU freshmen Ivan Saldarriaga of Graham and Ryne McCall of Asheville, and University of Virginia freshman Bryan Hendrick of Palmyra, Va.

It was a balmy spring day with temperatures near 70 when they started the trek Sunday from Fontana Dam. But the weather rapidly deteriorated Monday, and the four found themselves on the open trail amid pelting rain, sleet and plunging temperatures.

By the time they reached a three-sided shelter almost 22 miles from Fontana, everything they carried was soaking wet. A campfire inside the shelter helped them dry out somewhat, and a tarp over the open end of the shelter promised some respite.

But on Monday night, the wind drove snow and ice past the tarp, again soaking their clothes and sleeping bags. More than 8 inches of snow fell that night.

Caught unaware, the teenagers were wearing mostly cotton clothes that did little to keep them dry.

"We didn't really do our homework," McCall said late Wednesday. "It was a combination of mistakes."

But the group knew enough to stay put in the shelter, even though their fire offered only minimal comfort in an otherwise miserable game of survival.

"We decided not to do the macho thing," McCall said. It turned out to be a critically good decision.

A few hours later, six hikers from Messiah College in Pennsylvania decided to stop early for the day because of the weather and the icy trails. The four college students and two adults, who had geared up for a winter outing, picked the Derrick Knob shelter where Shultz and his friends were tending their fire.

Shultz told the others he felt dizzy and needed to lie down somewhere. His words began to slur. His comments were incoherent. His eyes appeared to "zone out," Saldarriaga said.

The two adults, both trained in wilderness first aid, knew Shultz was showing early signs of hypothermia -- and they knew what they needed to do.

"We wrapped him in plastic and fleece and started filling him with warm liquids," said Craig Dalen, one of the adults from the Pennsylvania group. "Something needed to happen right then. And we needed to get help."

Dalen and one of the Messiah students headed out to a ranger station -- a 12.5-mile hike that took 6 hours. When they arrived about 7:30 p.m., the found a volunteer at the station.

It was the second lucky break for Schultz. The "ridge runner," as this volunteer is called, typically stays at the station only two days a week. Even luckier was that he had just installed a phone at the station, allowing him to call a park ranger immediately.

Based on the detailed information from Dalen and the knowledge that someone else with first aid training was at the shelter, the rangers knew they did not have to tackle the icy trails at night. They left at sunrise Wednesday.

By noon, they reached the shelter, alerted the National Guard's 146th Medical Support Unit out of Smyrna, Ga., and made plans to get Schultz off the mountain. While Schultz had improved, there was no way he was going to hike back to safety.

By Wednesday evening, he felt good enough to tell his mother not to make the drive to Knoxville. He hopes to be home today.

Dalen said he and his group are also finished hiking.

"As a matter of fact," Dalen said, "we are headed out tonight for a steak. This is enough adventure for one spring break."

# # #

Goon
03-10-2005, 12:00
Ok, I'll now jump on the "they were idiots" bandwagon.

Course I've never met anyone that went to NC State who was very smart. JUST KIDDING! :) [I went to Clemson.]

Caleb
03-10-2005, 12:04
as Denzel Washington would say 'they sho'nuf in school now'

Caleb
03-10-2005, 12:21
Ok, I'll now jump on the "they were idiots" bandwagon.

Course I've never met anyone that went to NC State who was very smart. JUST KIDDING! :) [I went to Clemson.]
Ditto for Uva. leaving the grounds over Easters is braindead. C

Rain Man
03-10-2005, 13:58
[I went to Clemson.]

WOOOO WOOOOO.... GO TIGERS!!!

Rain :sun Man
Clemson '75

.

orangebug
03-10-2005, 15:02
Paw Power!

Clemson, 73

(Of course I have a sister who is an NC State grad)

Jack Tarlin
03-10-2005, 15:35
I'm very curious as to whether or not they had maps, or knew how to read the ones they had.

I've been frequently taken to task here for making the point that maps are essential tools whenever you go into the woods, even if it's just a day or weekend trip.

Several folks here, including some very experienced hikers, have said that maps are not needed and are not necessary on the Appalachian Trail.

Let's pretend for a minute, that these kids did not have the comfort of a shelter when they found themselves in trouble, or were not lucky enough to encounter folks who recognized the severity of the situation and were able to help. Let's imagine that these kids had to find their own way out of the woods without any help from outsides.

Unless these kids had maps and the ability to use them, we'd probably be dealing with a multiple fatality situation here instead of a happy ending. (Never mind the fact that a more involved search and rescue would put the rescuers at risk as well).

The next time some "experienced" thru-hiker tells newcomers that maps aren't needed on the A.T. and that it's easy to get by without them, I hope someone remembers this incident.

In my opinion, failure to carry and use maps is incredibly stupid, and telling folks they aren't needed or aren't that useful on the A.T. is reckless, irresponsible, and just plain wrong.

HikeLite
03-10-2005, 15:57
I think the youngster was in at least moderate hypothermia, not mild once his speech is slurring and he no longer makes talking sense.

briarpatch
03-10-2005, 16:27
I agree completely with Jack, not carrying a map is a bad idea. Practicing how to use it and being able to keep track of where you are while on the trail are essential skills.

When my son first started backpacking with with me at 8, I would play a game with him on rest breaks where he tried to determine where we were, how far to the next road crossing, how far back to the last crossing, and the fastest way to a place to get help. He pretty soon learned how to locate cross trails and places where the trail came close to roads, along with being able to read the terrain from topo maps.

He's 18 now and so far, he's never needed to use map skills for survival, but he once used a map to convince me that a Coke machine was a short 4 mile round trip to a state campground, and after 4 days on the trail with 3 to go, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

tlbj6142
03-10-2005, 16:42
Besides maps, do the other map-like sources (Wingy's book, data book) provide this type of information?

I believe the data book would list the trail crossings, but would not tell you where they end up. For some reason, I though Wingy's book did provide some information as to where side trails end up. If not, I'd agree with Jack.

leeki pole
03-10-2005, 16:44
Spot on, Jack. Don't leave home without it (and a good compass).

leeki pole
03-10-2005, 16:51
Yellow jacket, my copy of wingy's book lists the Greenbrier Ridge Trail left, 0.2 miles past Derrick Knob Shelter, 8.3 miles to Tremont. Course, they'd have no idea that there was a ranger station there just going from the book unless they had knowledge of GSMNP before their hike.

Jack Tarlin
03-10-2005, 17:20
TLBJ:

I'm not sure what a "map-like source is." Either you have a well-done, up-to-date map of the terrain you're traversing (and the ability to read it) or you don't.

The trail guides such as the Handbook or Data Book will indeed tell you where the MAJOR roads and crossings are, and where you'll find a town or store, but they tell you nothing about the countless trails, paths, jeep trails, lumber roads, abandoned roads, railroad lines, power lines, streams, etc. that a hiker encounters every day. With a map, you can clearly SEE these entities in their entirety, and you can see exactly where they go and where they end up. Without a map, in an emergency situation, you have four options:

1. Do nothing except sit and wait for help, help that may
not arrive or may arrive too late to be useful.

2. Either proceed forward on the Trail or re-trace your
steps backwards until you come to a trail or road
crossing that you are positive leads to help.

3. Leave the Trail and bushwhack across open ground, and
by either following streams or heading downhill, keep
going until you strike a road or other sign of civilization.

4. Proceed forward or back on the Trail until you strike
some sort of road or path and hope that it'll take you
out of the woods.

The first option is sometimes wise, but what if nobody knows you're out there, or it's a time of year when there are few folks in the woods? You might be waiting for hekl that ain't coming.

The second option is time-consuming, and while you won't get lost, time can be critically important in an injury or hypothermia/exposure situation. You might rescue yourself or get out of the woods eventually, but what about the sick or injured guy you were trying to help?

The third option might get you out of the woods if you're lucky. Of couse, if you leave the trail and badly injure yourself and nobody has a clue where you are, you might find yourself dead. Bushwhacking without a map can be a VERY dangerous thing to do.

Fourth option might get you outta the woods. Then again, without a map you can't tell if that trail or dirt road you're following leads anywhere useful, leads in the exact opposite direction of where you want to be heading, dead ends in the middle of nowhere, or makes a five mile circle bringing you back, cold and wet, to where you started.

In short, there's no such thing as a useful "map-like" substitute. You either have the vital tools that enable you to help yourself and others in an emergency situation, or you don't.

tlbj6142
03-10-2005, 18:05
Yellow jacket, my copy of wingy's book lists the Greenbrier Ridge Trail left, 0.2 miles past Derrick Knob Shelter, 8.3 miles to Tremont. Course, they'd have no idea that there was a ranger station there just going from the book unless they had knowledge of GSMNP before their hike.OK, that's what I thought. For some reason I thought Wingy's book might provide information like...

Greenbrier Ridge Trail left (Ranger Station 8miles), etc.

Sort of like he provides at road crossings.

Looks like a map is the only way to go.

I always carry mine becuase I love to read them and point out locations, etc. while on breaks or camp.

The Old Fhart
03-10-2005, 18:07
A "map-like source" is to a map what a movie review is to a movie. Get the picture? :D

There is no substitute for a map and compass, and the knowledge of how to use them. I've taught mountain safety skills for over 23 years and climbed Mt. Washington 72 times but I still take a map of the area, compass, and altimeter with me.

Rain Man
03-10-2005, 18:53
...The next time some "experienced" thru-hiker tells newcomers that maps aren't needed on the A.T. and that it's easy to get by without them, I hope someone remembers this incident.

In my opinion, failure to carry and use maps is incredibly stupid, and telling folks they aren't needed or aren't that useful on the A.T. is reckless, irresponsible, and just plain wrong.

AMEN, Brother Jack!!! I'm with you.

Rain :sun Man

.

orangebug
03-10-2005, 19:09
I think the youngster was in at least moderate hypothermia, not mild once his speech is slurring and he no longer makes talking sense.Bingo. I wondered if anyone would notice that.

Dances with Mice
03-10-2005, 19:31
I think the youngster was in at least moderate hypothermia, not mild once his speech is slurring and he no longer makes talking sense.

I must be in moderate hypothermia all the time.

DavidNH
03-10-2005, 19:46
hmm...first week of March is still winter plain and simple. Not to be prepared for rain and or snow this time of year in themountains is hard to imagine. I guess these hikers are lucky to survive. Perhaps if folks would wait till the last week of March which is the first week of Spring...they would have a more realistic chance of having spring weather. Of course here in New Hampshire spring weather often still includes snow and rain!!!!

nhhiker

Krewzer
03-11-2005, 00:45
You know, every year about this time, there are folks wandering around the smokies who get in trouble. Spring Break always brings them out. Most all of them just get really miserable and finally go home, not knowing how close they were to making the news like these kids.

The Park service used to inspect winter gear before giving a back-country permit in winter. From what I heard, they stopped that practice because implied liablity on there part. Too bad, it would have probably saved these guys a lot of misery.

I don't think that would be a bad thing to have again.

Groucho
03-11-2005, 05:25
The Park service used to inspect winter gear before giving a back-country permit in winter. From what I heard, they stopped that practice because implied liablity on there part. .

From Nov.-?, you were supposed to have equipment to survive -20º F temps. I was never checked. The possibility of being checked might spur some to at least think of what they need for this time of year.

It used to be that hikers would start at Springer with nothing but summer clothing; it's Georgia, right next to Florida after all. I think this happens less than it used to.

http://hikinghq.net/forum/images/smilies2/trytofly.gif

MedicineMan
03-11-2005, 06:03
and before we got to pick a board and rig we had to listen to a lecture on the perils of the area...
#3 was the offshore winds that would push you to S. America (only 15ish miles away)
#2 was sea urchins, fall off a board onto one and your trip was over
#1 was hypothermia, because even in water 86F you would eventually
get the life heat sucked out of you

Florida is still the #1 state for hypothermia, so it is schistic to me why anyone would even look at a mountain and want to walk it without the basics....
I know there are heavy---but essential equipment in a touring kayak, but a candle lantern and a decent sized poncho add up to an instant sauna that can warm even the coldest body, not that I would carry a candle lantern but it is something to mull over....

Mike
03-11-2005, 09:57
I happen to have my GSMNP $1.00 map that I mark my progress to the 900 mile mark on.

Derrick Knob to Institute at Tremont - 8.3 trail miles + ~2 road miles
Derrick Knob to Cades Cove Ranger Station - 11.2 trail miles (backtrack 6.2 mi on AT)
Derrick Knob to Elkmont Ranger Station - 11.1 trail miles

See, even I am prepared with a map handy... and I am at work.... in Indianapolis.... and my next trip to the smokies isnt till may.

whats wrong with me

The Old Fhart
03-11-2005, 11:01
Mike-"whats wrong with me" You answered your own question: "......I am at work.... in Indianapolis...."

Hope you have a nice trip!

weary
03-11-2005, 11:16
It used to be that hikers would start at Springer with nothing but summer clothing; it's Georgia, right next to Florida after all. I think this happens less than it used to.
http://hikinghq.net/forum/images/smilies2/trytofly.gif
When I started at Georgia in April of 1993 I sort of assumed April in Georgia should be about like Miami in January. I was wrong. I discovered that Georgia mountains in April are about like the coast of Maine in April, cold, blustery and beautiful.

Luckily I always over pack so survived quite well and had a great time -- especially in Georgia and North Carolina, when all the kids thought I was so wise, having brought enough gear to be comfortable when water was freezing in my water bottle many nights.

Weary

SavageLlama
03-11-2005, 13:05
Guess they weren't boy scouts..



Lack of preparation stranded hikers in Smokies
Associated Press Newswires
March 10, 2005
07:26 pm

GATLINBURG, Tenn. (AP) - Four hikers who had to be rescued from the snow-covered Appalachian Trail became stranded because they did not have appropriate clothing and gear for bad weather, one of them said.

"Basically we weren't prepared enough," Ryne McCall said. "We didn't do our homework. A combination of mistakes led us to getting into trouble."

McCall, of Asheville, N.C.; Ivan Saldarriaga, of Swepsonville, N.C.; and Bryan Hendricks, of Palmyra, Va.; hiked out of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park with rangers on Wednesday.

The fourth hiker, Matthew Schultz, of Raleigh, N.C., was taken by helicopter to University of Tennessee Medical Center in Knoxville as a precaution after he showed signs of hypothermia. He was released on Thursday, hospital officials said.

"You're 19. You figure you are invincible, right?" said Matthew's mother, Kathy. "I think they realize now just how close to the edge they came."

The hikers, all 19, began their spring break adventure on Sunday at Fontana Lake under warm, sunny skies. The next day their gear and cotton clothing got wet when it rained and then froze overnight when temperatures dipped into the teens and 8 inches of snow fell while they huddled in a shelter along the trail.

Schultz started to have hypothermia symptom, shivering, vomiting and becoming incoherent on Tuesday.

The hikers got their break when six backpackers -- four students and two employees at Messiah College in Grantham, Pa. -- found them Tuesday afternoon.

The backpackers had the appropriate equipment and some had training in wilderness first aid. They wrapped Schultz in a plastic sheet and fed him hot gelatin.

Two backpackers left the group to hike about 12 miles help at the nearest ranger station, and a search and rescue team set out for the shelter Wednesday morning.

"Everyone cooperating the way they did saved the Schultz boy," said ranger Chuck Hester, who headed the rescue effort.

# # #

SavageLlama
03-11-2005, 13:08
Link to the story with some pix..

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050311/NEWS01/503110314/1001

Mike
03-11-2005, 13:13
You answered your own question: "......I am at work.... in Indianapolis...."

Hope you have a nice trip!

Well said!

SavageLlama
03-11-2005, 16:51
Another good article..


Messiah group credits survival training in rescue of hikers

By Jerry Gleason
The Patriot-News
March 11, 2005

The Messiah College hikers who earlier this week rescued four hikers backpacking through the Great Smoky Mountains were back in town yesterday.

The Messiah group -- four students and two residence directors who were on spring break -- came across the stranded hikers Tuesday at the Derrick Knob shelter on the Appalachian Trail in Great Smoky Mountains National Park in Tennessee.

"They were really in bad shape and in need of assistance," said Craig Dalen, a Messiah residence director. "They had been caught in a storm that changed from rain to snow, and all their clothing was frozen solid. They weren't prepared for the weather."

Dalen, residence director Ryan Wilson, and Messiah students Jordan Windholz, Derek Rosenberger, Lucas Scheaffer and C.J. Hill prepared hot drinks and wrapped the hikers in sleeping bags and other equipment.

"Jordan noticed that one member of the group was shivering uncontrollably. He had difficulty remembering his name and the day of the week, and we began giving him hot liquids and wrapped him in a plastic sheet," Dalen said.

Dalen, Wilson and Windholz have trained in wilderness survival and first aid.

"After we had them stabilized, Ryan and I hiked to the ranger station for help, and the others stayed behind to help them," Dalen said.

The ranger station was more than 12 miles away, and it took them six hours to get there.

A ranger search-and-rescue team left for the shelter at daybreak on Wednesday and reached it 41/2 hours later. The ill hiker, Matthew Schultz, was taken by helicopter to the University of Tennessee Medical Center in Knoxville as a precaution after he showed signs of hypothermia. He remained in stable condition yesterday, hospital officials said.

Ranger Chuck Hester, who headed the rescue effort, said the Messiah group helped save Schultz's life.

"Everyone cooperating the way they did saved the Schultz boy," Hester said.

Ryne McCall of Asheville, N.C., one of the stranded hikers, said they weren't prepared for the conditions when the storm hit.

"We didn't do our homework," McCall said. "A combination of mistakes led us to getting into trouble."

The group started out on a 71-mile hike on the Appalachian Trail in good weather on Sunday and didn't expect the weather they encountered Monday night, McCall said.

Dalen said the group from Messiah was on a six-day, 60-mile backpacking trip when they came across the stranded hikers. They cut their trip short and returned to the college yesterday afternoon.

"After the third day, we were at the Siler's Bald shelter when a really bad storm hit," he said. "We were in 6 to 7 inches of snow at 5,500 feet of elevation, with heavy winds. However, we had the right clothing and equipment."

While hiking to the Derrick Knob shelter the following day, they passed other hikers who told them there was a group of hikers in bad shape at the shelter.

"They weren't lost, and it may not be proper to say they were stranded," Dalen said. "They knew where they were and where to go, but they were really wet, cold, exhausted and disorganized."

Hikers in the park check in at a ranger station and reserve camp sites, but the rangers can't keep track of everyone while they are in the park, Dalen said.

"It is the responsibility of the hikers to take care of themselves, and to be prepared for the weather and other conditions they might encounter," he said.

# # #

SavageLlama
03-11-2005, 18:18
last one.. I promise. :D

http://tennessean.com/local/archives/05/03/66734765.shtml?Element_ID=66734765

Blue Jay
03-11-2005, 19:31
Don't apologize, many of us love to hear about hikers helping other hikers

JLB
03-11-2005, 20:40
Link to the story with some pix..

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050311/NEWS01/503110314/1001

Nice looking shelter.

Also, it doesn't look like they were wearing jeans, but maybe cotton zip offs, or fatigues, and trusted on light jackets and fleece to keep warm.

I wonder where they got the dry wood for the fire, if it was raining and sleeting.

smokymtnsteve
03-11-2005, 21:20
just looked at the link with the photos.

and lo and behold that is a picture of my son SMOKYMTNRED, walking by the firepit and that is me standing in the doorway. where did they get that picture?

weary
03-11-2005, 21:22
Nice looking shelter.

Also, it doesn't look like they were wearing jeans, but maybe cotton zip offs, or fatigues, and trusted on light jackets and fleece to keep warm.

I wonder where they got the dry wood for the fire, if it was raining and sleeting.
Fires can always be built if you have matches and are able to walk to trees, wet or dry. I can't remember a situation where if I wanted a fire, I could not make one.

Weary

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 21:32
The shelter looks nice because it is a nice day. The wind last time I was there was blowing in from the front from that small field out front. Plus all that pretty grass was gone, just a bunch of mud. I still had fun, but then again it wasn't -20 and I wasn't in wet cotton either.

ed bell
03-11-2005, 21:37
I'm speculating here, but sometimes people leave a little dry kindling or wood at shelters when they leave for others to use, especially for conditions such as encountered by these fellas. This is probably seen more in colder months. If someone comes to a shelter and finds a stash of wood there, it's theirs for the burning. Payback is in the form of leaving new wood/kindling for the next needy hiker. Hopefully no fire is needed at all and the emergency pile is left there. I have found that shelter fireplaces can be lacking in the smoke evacuation department, so I usually skip the fire if I stay in one at all. As for finding dry wood, if you get a good coal base going, keeping the fire going won't be too hard.

smokymtnsteve
03-11-2005, 21:59
The shelter looks nice because it is a nice day. The wind last time I was there was blowing in from the front from that small field out front. Plus all that pretty grass was gone, just a bunch of mud. I still had fun, but then again it wasn't -20 and I wasn't in wet cotton either.

another reason thhe shelter looks nice in that picture is because we had just got finished picking up trash from around it

SGT Rock
03-11-2005, 22:30
Good man Steve. I think I probably took a zip lock of trash off the site myself. As I remember the site, I had to go a few hundred yards out to find any wood to burn since like all shelters the dead fall stays pretty picked clean. I would also guess that with 8"+ of snow on the ground a few greenhorns would have trouble getting a fire burning with all the wood frozen wet.

A-Train
03-11-2005, 22:31
The next time some "experienced" thru-hiker tells newcomers that maps aren't needed on the A.T. and that it's easy to get by without them, I hope someone remembers this incident.



I had that exact thought a couple days ago when this thread popped up but decided against writing it here, for sometimes I think it's pointless to post certain ideas. I'm glad you wrote this.

This is why I get angry when 10 thru-hikers hop on here and proclaim that because they made it to maine without maps, you'd be a fool to spend the money on them. Yes most of the folks who get stranded are out for a couple days, generall off-season and not thru-hikers, but doesn't mean it can't happen to the best of us.

As for the situation, none of you were there, witnessed it or talked to the boys, so you're all speculating I assume or trusting things written in local papers which we all know are as reliable as the National Inquirer. From reading many newspaper articles, especially about the trail, the facts are almost always skewed and not to the fault of those the article is about. Remember the whole issues with One Leg? Often times writers just write what they assume to be true. Look no further than Backpacker Mag about Keith Shaw. Don't trust everything you read and give the kids a break.
Was it the brightest thing to do? Should they maybe have waited until May to set out? Should they maybe have thought about purchasing some non-cotton clothes? SHould they have maybe tackled an easier section with less elevation? Yes to all of these. But they are kids and learning and I can guarantee they won't make the same mistake again. I'm just glad they are OK.

Youngblood
03-12-2005, 11:11
... where did they get that picture?Maybe Abbey took it? :banana

SavageLlama
03-12-2005, 12:40
If you click on the photo of Derrick Knob shelter, you get a larger version..

http://cmsimg.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=B0&Date=20050311&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=503110314&Ref=V2&Profile=1001&maxW=600&maxH=440&title=1

smokymtnsteve
03-12-2005, 12:49
yep that's my son , smokymtnred, by the firepit, right now RED is traveling back to Alaska, he is presently making his border x-ing into Canada, interstate 29 in North Dakota. he called in about an hour ago and was 35 miles south of the international border.

Big Daddy D
03-12-2005, 14:35
I and several others hiked through the area and Derrick Knob shelter, the morning after the helicopter rescue. All their "gear" was still piled in the shelter. Glad they had help.

Also, earlier this month a woman was found out in the snow and certainly within a day of dying but Gel and others helped her and got medical attention for her.

In my opinion Gel SAVED HER LIFE and is worthy of praise.

Big Daddy D

PS-I got several trailjournal guestbook entries and several pocket mails from very concerned friends who knew I was in the area. The same can be said for all the other 8 thrus here today in Gatlinburg.

Good hiking IS safe hiking!

ed bell
03-12-2005, 15:42
Thanks for the post Big Daddy D. Always good to hear about hikers looking out for one another. Good job Gel! Hope the weather improves for you guys.

I wonder who gets to carry all that wet cotton out of the shelter.:sun

Stoker53
03-13-2005, 12:08
i view this as one more step towards us having to "be approved", permitted, licensed or whatever to go into the woods.... people keep doing this, and we'll find the back country "closed" Oct 1 to May 1. :(

Years ago the NPS "inspected" your equipment BEFORE issuing your backcountry permit ( during the winter ). If memory serves me correctly the practice was stopped due to law suits filed by hikers who objected to the practice. I doubt the inspection will be reinstated however I do suspect that in the future you will get a bill from the NPS if you have to be rescued in the GSMNP.

Remorse
03-15-2005, 20:51
hi everyone . . . if you have legitimate questions about the trip then i'll answer them as i was one of the four idiot "stranded" hikers. btw, the stuff that was found in the shelter the day after wasn't our "gear", which consisted mostly of underarmor, longjohns and fleece materials (though clearly we had way too much cotton). we carried almost all of our stuff out except for what we were unable to backpack out because of our fourth hiker. we didn't have a concealed sword, yes there was dry wood in the shelter though we dried more, yes we are idiots, and yes we learned our lesson the hard way. as for the people who wanted nature to take its course, right or no, i hope some day they have families of their own and realize that someone's kids dying really isn't that funny -- though us making national news for the mistakes we made quite possibly is. the media def. went way too far on this one. the rangers were utterly flabberghasted by our chance to be on good morning america.

oh, and we had two maps. we just don't care much for leaving hypothermic friends at the top of mountains when people who are better hikers (/people?) have already set out for a ranger station.

hope we haven't caused as much trouble as i hope we haven't caused, if that makes sense. we tried through the interviews to get the message of how big we messed up across, so hopefully our survival served some purpose. go ahead and make fun of us if you want, but it's honestly pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

thanks everyone

MOWGLI
03-15-2005, 21:01
hi everyone . . . if you have legitimate questions about the trip then i'll answer them as i was one of the four idiot "stranded" hikers.

Hey Remorse (great trail name - I guess you earned it!). The real idiots are the few here who suggested that nature take its course. We commonly refer to those jokers as "trolls". They're just looking to get a rise out of someone.

Every year hikers get caught in GSMNP and have a close brush. Most survive, some don't. I hope you learned from your situation and will be back out on the trail soon - applying your new found knowledge.

Happy Trails. Hike safe!

Lilred
03-15-2005, 21:04
hi everyone . . . if you have legitimate questions about the trip then i'll answer them as i was one of the four idiot "stranded" hikers. btw, the stuff that was found in the shelter the day after wasn't our "gear", which consisted mostly of underarmor, longjohns and fleece materials (though clearly we had way too much cotton). we carried almost all of our stuff out except for what we were unable to backpack out because of our fourth hiker. we didn't have a concealed sword, yes there was dry wood in the shelter though we dried more, yes we are idiots, and yes we learned our lesson the hard way. as for the people who wanted nature to take its course, right or no, i hope some day they have families of their own and realize that someone's kids dying really isn't that funny -- though us making national news for the mistakes we made quite possibly is. the media def. went way too far on this one. the rangers were utterly flabberghasted by our chance to be on good morning america.

oh, and we had two maps. we just don't care much for leaving hypothermic friends at the top of mountains when people who are better hikers (/people?) have already set out for a ranger station.

hope we haven't caused as much trouble as i hope we haven't caused, if that makes sense. we tried through the interviews to get the message of how big we messed up across, so hopefully our survival served some purpose. go ahead and make fun of us if you want, but it's honestly pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

thanks everyone

I, for one, am very glad y'all made it out ok with no serious injury. Disregard the remarks from others about nature taking its course, they are the true idiots. Not only have you learned from this experience, but hopefully you have educated others by it. And if it stops some other kids from going out on the trail ill prepared, then your ordeal will have been worth it, and might possibly have helped to save a life. Perhaps that is the reason for all the media attention. Someone, somewhere, may have heard your story and headed its message. God does work in mysterious ways......

SGT Rock
03-15-2005, 21:12
hi everyone . . . if you have legitimate questions about the trip then i'll answer them as i was one of the four idiot "stranded" hikers. btw, the stuff that was found in the shelter the day after wasn't our "gear", which consisted mostly of underarmor, longjohns and fleece materials (though clearly we had way too much cotton). we carried almost all of our stuff out except for what we were unable to backpack out because of our fourth hiker. we didn't have a concealed sword, yes there was dry wood in the shelter though we dried more, yes we are idiots, and yes we learned our lesson the hard way. as for the people who wanted nature to take its course, right or no, i hope some day they have families of their own and realize that someone's kids dying really isn't that funny -- though us making national news for the mistakes we made quite possibly is. the media def. went way too far on this one. the rangers were utterly flabberghasted by our chance to be on good morning america.

oh, and we had two maps. we just don't care much for leaving hypothermic friends at the top of mountains when people who are better hikers (/people?) have already set out for a ranger station.

hope we haven't caused as much trouble as i hope we haven't caused, if that makes sense. we tried through the interviews to get the message of how big we messed up across, so hopefully our survival served some purpose. go ahead and make fun of us if you want, but it's honestly pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

thanks everyone

Thanks for posting. It is nice that the nameless faceless people that folks bash outside of their presence can come on and become a real person to the rest of us. Don't worry about jerks that say stupid stuff. :datz

JLB
03-15-2005, 21:38
hi everyone . . . if you have legitimate questions about the trip then i'll answer them as i was one of the four idiot "stranded" hikers. btw, the stuff that was found in the shelter the day after wasn't our "gear", which consisted mostly of underarmor, longjohns and fleece materials (though clearly we had way too much cotton). we carried almost all of our stuff out except for what we were unable to backpack out because of our fourth hiker. we didn't have a concealed sword, yes there was dry wood in the shelter though we dried more, yes we are idiots, and yes we learned our lesson the hard way. as for the people who wanted nature to take its course, right or no, i hope some day they have families of their own and realize that someone's kids dying really isn't that funny -- though us making national news for the mistakes we made quite possibly is. the media def. went way too far on this one. the rangers were utterly flabberghasted by our chance to be on good morning america.

oh, and we had two maps. we just don't care much for leaving hypothermic friends at the top of mountains when people who are better hikers (/people?) have already set out for a ranger station.

hope we haven't caused as much trouble as i hope we haven't caused, if that makes sense. we tried through the interviews to get the message of how big we messed up across, so hopefully our survival served some purpose. go ahead and make fun of us if you want, but it's honestly pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

thanks everyone

Well, I'm glad you made it, and didn't resort to cannibalism, or killing a Bantha and crawling inside of it.

Remember: Gore-tex


Just because it has the "Gore" name in it, doesn't mean it's a loser.

ed bell
03-15-2005, 21:43
Welcome Remorse,

I believe that anytime there is a search/rescue or emergency on the AT, we here at Whiteblaze normaly post updates, details and discuss aspects of the info we read. I re-read the thread here and there were about 3 posts that I felt were over the top. Turns out that in another thread on David D's emergency near Inadu Knob in the Smokys, one of the posts was almost verbatum. I would ignore it as a personal hang up on their part. To stay with your friend while others went for help was the right thing to do. Like you said, we were not there. I guess once trouble starts you just have to deal with it as best as you can. I hope you don't quit backpacking, I didn't know a whole hell of a lot about it when I got out of high school, but I learned fast and it is now one of my favorite things in life. I hope everything gets back to normal for you. Usually the crazy trips make the best stories down the line. I'm just glad you made it back. It takes guts to confront your critics. WTG:sun

orangebug
03-15-2005, 22:26
Remorse, welcome to WhiteBlaze. Thanks for dealing with the world as you have, as well as dealing with trolls and troglidytes on the list.

Some of us think that all accidents are preventable. Most accidents occur due to inadequate knowledge, planning and dumb luck. Hence, at least a third of these events ain't no one's fault. At least you and your friends have learned a bunch about hypothermia and other hiking hazards. You are now in a much better position to avoid these problems in the future.

There are more awaiting you.

See you on the trail. :jump

Krewzer
03-16-2005, 02:17
Welcome home Remorse. Glad you made it back from the "un-happy side of misery."

Don't worry about the news people. Remember they make their living selling preparation H, stool softener and many other truly stupid items.

Where would you rather be, CNN HQ or SMNP?

Hope to see you in the high country sometime.

krewzer

Mountain Dew
03-16-2005, 02:19
I may be mistaken, but I don't believe this remorse is one of those kids for a second. The chance of somebody going through what they went through coming to WB just days after being home with family is remote in my opinion. I think it's just another internet coward hiding behind a fake WB name wanting to say what is on his mind. Ofcourse I could be wrong here.

That's my .02

Remorse
03-16-2005, 02:32
haha, good man (or woman?), MDew. skepticism is almost always the way to go, i guess. i have photos and pretty insider info if you want proof. i know it's kinda random that i found this thread (though actually my buddy hiker found it), so i'm definitely understanding why you wouldn't believe me. think of a non-creepy way for me to prove it, though, and i will. BTW, we actually did cut open a bantha and crawl inside, but the bantha had hypothermia too so it didn't do us much good.

Remorse
03-16-2005, 02:36
oh, by the way, we walked out on wednesday, our hypothermic buddy was out of the hospital on thursday, and we were all travelling home on friday. a reporter for c'ville asked me if i had asked UVa for a few days off of school and i realized that i hadn't even considered it.

Mountain Dew
03-16-2005, 02:41
Majoring in Criminal Law and knowing certain people on WB I had a feeling you were a fake. Although unsure I thought I'd post my thoughts. You all of a sudden signing on WB less than two minutes after I posted gives me further reason to doubt. If I'm wrong then oh well. Time will tell. Whoever remorse is sure was waiting to pounce on my trap of a post. :-?

Sallysot
03-16-2005, 03:06
How awful you are and what a misrable life you must lead.

Remorse
03-16-2005, 03:11
yah. i feel like an idiot for posting now. if someone wants proof then i have tons and tons and tons. like 250 megs of pictures we took and all the equipment and such and i suppose i could take a picture of myself writing on this post and you could compare it to a newspaper or something. anyway, lemme know how far i have to go, though i don't know why i'm wasting my time talking to people who wouldn't believe me if i flew a black hawk to their house and took them to the spot where we were. geez. didn't see this coming.

Sallysot
03-16-2005, 03:19
It will be a life lesson for you all.I don't doubt you or your account of what happened. After all you last name isn't Bush.

Mountain Dew
03-16-2005, 03:30
Maybe he is who he says and maybe he's not. I doubt anybody cares for the most part. I was simply guessing and not casting stones. I haven't said a bad word about the guys that had to be rescued. I'm very glad things ended up the way they did with the guys getting rescued with no permenant harm being done to them. I strongly disagree with those that say let nature takes its course with them. We all make mistakes as did these guys. I made many on my first thru-hike and will make more to come.

sallysnot, "How awful you are and what a misrable life you must lead." --- Typing while looking into the mirror can be sortof tricky there eh ? Don't worry i'll believe everything you say as well. Afterall your hero invented the internet. For what it's worth. I love my life. I'll soon be thru-hiking again thanks to hard work and saving my money. What will you be doing this summer ? sniff sniff... I smell an AT'L pack snifer in our presence. :banana

Is it worth mentioning that you just became a member since I made my comments in regards to Remorse ? Not likely a new member will make his first post so angry. In talking to Remorse on PM's it seems I was wrong with my suspicion, but I am almost certain you are a coward hiding under a new WB name. :welcome

One Leg
03-16-2005, 03:57
Remorse,

I'd like to take the time to welcome you to WhiteBlaze. If you can get past the mounds of senseless crap on here, there's actually some useful information to be found amongst the postings here.

It's so easy for some to sit back and play "armchair quarterback" when they aren't out there in the game themselves. Decisions that are made on the trail, while sometimes illogical, are your decisions to make. That's how you learn. That's how I learned. The fallout that sometimes accompanies our decisions tends to make us look like horse's butts, and opens us up to insurmountable criticism. Best advice is don't answer your critics. You made the choice, you're the one who has to live with it, and you're the one who's learning from the decisions you've made. I do, however, applaud you for having the courage to come forth through this forum, and for letting us know who you are. In my opinion (for what it's worth), you've got no reason to come on here and lie about who you are.

Derrick's Knob caused me some problems last year, so I know the area a little too well. Like yourselves, I was "ill-equipped", but to a different degree than you may be thinking. I had failed to pack an allen wrench for my prosthetic leg. I fell, and the allen screws holding my leg onto my socket came loose. As a result, the leg eventually fell off. Another quick-thinking hiker decided that the best course of action was to splint my leg with my Leki pole using parachute cord. In the meantime, another well-meaning hiker used his cellphone to call GSMNP and inform them of a "hiker with a broken leg at Derrick's Knob", neglecting to inform them that it was a prosthetic leg, not a natural leg, that was broken. One rescuer came, only to discover that I was moving under my own steam. He used his radio to call other rescuers who were headed my way to let them know that they weren't needed. Embarrassing? Indeed. But I learned. I now carry an allen wrench and a bottle of loc-tite in my first aid kit.

Whether we choose to openly admit it or not, we're all learning through this process we call life. I'm glad that you and your friends made it out alive, learned from your experience, and are better people because of it.

One-Leg

MedicineMan
03-16-2005, 04:01
welcome to WB...as a paddler too I frequent www.paddling.net where 'accidents' are critiqued. It helps us all.
Now 'bout that 'banda, was it slimy inside?

SGT Rock
03-16-2005, 07:44
You could always post to the photo section of the site.

weary
03-16-2005, 09:04
Maybe he is who he says and maybe he's not. I doubt anybody cares for the most part. I was simply guessing and not casting stones. ....
Hmmm. You could of surprised me. Such speculations are basically crap. Especially from someone whose own biases make it difficult for him to keep his own facts straight.

As for the kids' winter adventure. There, but for the grace of God, go I.

Weary

Dainon
03-16-2005, 09:22
Remorse,

I'm glad that everything turned out OK for you guys -- "there but for the grace of God go I."

In that context, I do have some questions about your experience. I'm a total rookie hiker and would like to read from your perspective what were the critical mistakes that you made and what you would change so that situation wouldn't happen to you again in similar weather conditions.

Specifically, would you describe exactly what type of clothing you were wearing and also what you were packing? When did you know that you were in trouble? What actions did you take to rectify the situation? Did your clothes become wet from the snow, from sweat, from rain, or from a combination of all? Did you not have dry clothes? What about your sleeping bag? Was it too wet such that you couldn't warm yourself by crawling inside of it?

Any information or perspective that you might have on what you found to be the critical mistakes and what could have been done to prevent the situation from becoming life threatening would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Remorse
03-16-2005, 13:56
this is most certainly an emotionally-charged thread . . . hopefully we can move through that. i really would like to share my experiences solely for the purpose of helping others avoid similar mistakes.

that's where you come in, dainon, and thanks for developing the first legitimate questions i've heard.

in response, i myself was clad in a layer of cold gear underarmor, a layer of long-johns, waterproof/resistant pants, and i also carried a poncho and a snow coat. I had a double-layer of fleece gloves and some snow (not waterproof) gloves, as well as waterproof boots. The problem for me was that the poncho was utterly insufficient in the weather that I was in, and it was too warm (i thought at the time) to wear the snow coat. my gloves got extremely wet, as did my socks (i'm not sure if that is completely avoidable, perhaps you can get suggestions from others. at least don't get cotton socks like me, though i did have several dry pairs of socks as backups), and since my outermost top was long-john material it also was soaked. the rain turned to snow overnight and everything that we hadn't dried by the fire (a significant amout, with all four of us) froze on the line. the sleeping bags were totally dry, and we should have just stayed inside of them and sent for help then, but we were trying to dry some clothes when my friend started to feel sick and then got in his sleeping bag and the symptoms for hypothermia began. we took care of him and dried as much clothing as we could while better hikers went for a ranger station.

i was equipped as well as any of us, so there's not much need to go into the others' gear (i assume you know that jeans, cotton t-shirts, etc. are a terrible idea). specifically, the one case of hypothermia developed primarily from not removing wet cotton clothing. we did have other dry clothing to distribute, but not enough. as mentioned, i had extra socks, and we also had some extra pants and tops. no dry gloves, though, and shoes were wet.

as far as being in trouble, i'm not quite sure what you mean. we considered the frozen clothing/8 inches of snow trouble, but not life-threatening until the hypothermia hit matt. that was when we felt in trouble, i suppose you could say.

in retrospect, then, i would suggest waterproof everything (not ponchos!!!!), including gloves, shoes, a cover for your pack, etc. also, having a small pair of shoes (soft or something to walk around the shelter in while your others dry by a fire would be pleasant. no cotton, underarmor is great, get wool clothing if you can, make sure that you are as waterproof as your nalgenes.

the mistakes we avoided can be found just about in any periodical that had our story, though i'm not sure if they were attributing those mistakes to us or not: plenty of food, flashlights, stoves (have 1-2 extras at the least), a satellite phone or other device, hike with a buddy, etc.

i'll have to add more later . . . have a paper for my phil. class that i have to write . . . hope this helps for now.

thanks again, everyone, and i'll try to post some of our pictures when i have a moment

The Old Fhart
03-16-2005, 14:26
Remorse, Thanks for sharing your story with us. I think it means a lot to be able to hear your personal story rather than have it filtered through the media. I also realize you must have had to do some soul searching to decide whether to post here realizing the reaction you might get. The positive side of this is you all survived and are willing to learn from your mistakes. We’ll look forward to seeing some of the photos.

P.S. Think you hit the send button twice and double posted so now you are 2 remorseful ! :D

SGT Rock
03-16-2005, 14:41
I fixed the double post.

ed bell
03-16-2005, 14:48
Thanks again for sharing your story with us. I don't know about everyone else here, but I can tell you that I have been in conditions that could lead to the same outcome. I have been cold enough to be worried before. I think I remember seeing that the temp up there was in the single digets. I've had wet clothes, and boots frozen solid. Once you run out of dry clothing your options start shrinking. Sometimes in a group an individual may not admit that they are dangerously cold. If they don't speak up, then measures to avoid a rescue situation can't be implemented in time. I am not implying that this is what happened in Remorse's group, just that collective group awareness and a little bit of pride swallowing go a long way.

Dainon
03-16-2005, 14:50
Remorse,

Thanks for the information. I doubt that it will make you feel any better, but I did a 12.5 mile day hike in temps hovering in the mid-30s with light rain all day, and I was VERY close to being hypothermic -- mostly wet from sweat. If I had to go much further or camp that night, I'd have been in serious trouble.

I don't have enough experience to point to any single thing that you did wrong -- I used underarmour, nylon long pants, long sleeve wicking shirt, and FroggToggs. I got sweaty wearing all that, and by then it was too late. If there is a way to hike in rainy, near-freezing temps without getting wet, I certainly don't know how. I'd like to know, but I don't.

I've read some threads that contend that rookies spend far too much time worrying about what clothes to take and in what amount. However, from my perspective, that STILL remains the most difficult thing to decide and I'm still not sure if I'm taking enough of the right stuff. The administrators of this site are putting together gear lists and other information for beginners that hopefully will be ready soon. Personally I'd rather have too much clothes than be stuck with wet clothes in cold temps.

All that said, I appreciate your perspective and I wish you and your pals good luck.

orangebug
03-16-2005, 22:33
Remorse, you guys learned a great deal and taught others a lot. You 4 kids were a great demonstration why winter hiking alone is a poor idea. You demonstrate quick learning, understanding that sleeping bags are survival gear. Eventually, you'll learn how to use your sleeping bags to dry clothes rather than watch them turn into icicles hanging from rope. It isn't an obvious solution, so don't beat yourself up over it.

Hopefully, you will also learn that there is nothing "waterproof" on the AT. You will either get wet from sweat or from weather. You either learn how to compensate or you will quit the sport. You will learn how to improvise - for instance using baggies or trash bags to make over-mits to reduce problems of wet gloves or socks.

You guys were in trouble from the git-go, and in emergency when hypothermia attacked. The Smokies have killed better prepared hikers. You guys got out with all of your fingers, toes and noses. You aren't getting hell over the use of a cell phone for rescue. Many things could have gone far worse.

If someone doubts your credibility, you might want to consider that they have their own problems. Such is life on WB and the Internet.

Thanks for the courage to share your story.

Mountain Dew
03-16-2005, 23:17
Weary, "Especially from someone whose own biases make it difficult for him to keep his own facts straight." --- yeah yeah yeah You're just mad because I didn't let the Bush comment go. Poor biased liberal crybaby boo whoooo ..... oh and tell sallysnot that i said his when you see her/him in the mirror.

Panzer1
03-17-2005, 01:23
Remorse,

It's probably too soon for this yet, but I bet in a week or two, you and your hiking buddies will get together on the weekend and have a few beers(or whatever) and start telling jokes about your adventures together on that hill that day.

Panzer

Remorse
03-17-2005, 15:31
MDew is officially the funniest person on the forum. slamming everyone, haha. Yes, banthas are extremely slimy inside, and Panzer, we've already thought of many a funny aspect of the trip (mostly while we were experiencing it). You don't think that we lost our sense of humor through all of this, do ya? haha . . . it's never too soon for us four to laugh at ourselves, trust me.

Nightwalker
03-17-2005, 17:35
Hey Remorse (great trail name - I guess you earned it!). The real idiots are the few here who suggested that nature take its course. We commonly refer to those jokers as "trolls". They're just looking to get a rise out of someone.
Also known as "Internet Hikers"

Slimer
03-17-2005, 19:46
Remorse, Don't pay any attention to the internet hikers. I sure don't!

Mountain Dew
03-17-2005, 21:23
Slimer, Easy with the internet hikers comment. You never know who you might be talking about.

Remorse, at 19 you know what a Bantha is ? IMPRESSED.... In 2003 I was about to fall scrambling up a small rock face and Grey Matter and Greenman , two of my best friends, wouldn't stop laughing long enough to help me out. They did manage a pretty funny picture of me holding on for dear life. I think they were hoping to resupply with my gear if I fell. MAIRNTTT....... :dance

Slimer
03-17-2005, 23:36
Thats a two way street. Your comment of "you never know who your talking about" extends itself right back to you. Here you are claiming that this guy Remorse is lying and yet you don't really know him, you don't really "know who you're talking about". See what I mean? Its sort of like the pot calling the kettle black. Congrats. on your thru-hike.

Remorse
03-18-2005, 00:17
alright, everyone, good news. i managed to resize a pic and get it on WB. it is a picture of the first helicopter that came to see us (notice that it is not a medvac or a cargo chopper . . . this one was just for facilitating communication between us, the rangers and the black hawk on standby). my buddy ryne took the picture, but the snow was going everywhere when this one landed so he couldn't get a pic up close (and we were too embarrassed to take one when they could see us anyway). it's derek's knob shelter (so in tenn. and NC shelter galleries), and it's called something like "Four Hikers' Rescue." until i'm able to get another break in homework, enjoy!

Mountain Dew
03-18-2005, 00:38
Slimer, As I recall I did say this at the end of my first post... "ofcourse I could be wrong". ... Implying that he may indeed be who he claimed to be. Your statement wasn't a guess as mine was, but rather one made without even trying to know the facts. My statement didn't have anger filled words towards Remorse either like yours did for me and whoever else you referred to as internet hikers. You wanna know how many miles i've hiked on and off the A.T. just PM me my friend. There are indeed some "Yellow Pages" hikers on WB , but I'm not one of them. You also failed to notice that Remorse didn't have a problem with what I said. That is because I said nothing wrong and had no ill intentions.

Tha Wookie
03-18-2005, 01:25
Weary, "Especially from someone whose own biases make it difficult for him to keep his own facts straight." --- yeah yeah yeah You're just mad because I didn't let the Bush comment go. Poor biased liberal crybaby boo whoooo ..... oh and tell sallysnot that i said his when you see her/him in the mirror.

I hope you type with a bar of soap in your mouth.

Mountain Dew
03-18-2005, 01:46
Wookie.. Why would I ? It is very rare that I cuss and I surely didn't on this post. Be truthful here...you are either mad that I made the comment about liberals in response to the Bush comment or you are still pouting over another thread where you were verbally backed into the corner of "redirection". Get over it or atleast be honest. Finally, stop ruining a thread with your "geeky" comments. :welcome

Slimer
03-18-2005, 02:02
I could'nt give 3/4's of a rats*** how many miles you've walked on or off the AT. All you've accomplished with your petty posts is your outstanding ability to make an a** of yourself. With that said, your conversation with me is over. Time to move on...........

Mountain Dew
03-18-2005, 02:47
Slimer, "3/4 of a rats ass" ? Since when is it "3/4" of a rats ass. I'm sure I get it mixed up to if I just got put in my place like you have. If you don't care about how many miles a person has hiked on or off the A.T. then why did you talk out of your ass about people being internet hikers when they aren't. Slimer, " Remorse, Don't pay any attention to the internet hikers. I sure don't" I thru'd in 2003, hiked some on the A.T. last year and am about to thru-hike again ? What will you be doing this summer Mr. Yellow page hiker ?... Letting your fingers do the walking ? Nice seeing you run from the facts and the MAIN FACT that Remorse didn't have a beef with me because I wasn't trying to degrade him. I had nothing negative to say about him and his friends. I'm GLAD they were o.k. and love this Remorse guys sense of humor about the ordeal. You're just pouting because you made an ignorant comment and got put into your place. Now put some band aids on those hiking fingers of yours and run away. scurry rat scurry along....

attroll
03-18-2005, 03:23
Sorry but I think that this is getting out of hand. If you can not play nice then don't play at all. LOL