View Full Version : Titanium; what is it worth?
blackbird04217
12-27-2011, 00:38
I was engaged in conversation with a co-worker a few weeks back and a topic shifted to titanium. Being fairly clueless, I claimed it as one of the lightest metals, my basis was how desirable it is with other hikers, primarily ultra-lights. I've heard rumors here or on the trail that titanium cookware has no non-stick features and is rather easy to burn food on; but what are the advantages and why do people pay so much?
Aluminum is lighter. This was a counter-point to my clueless-ness and made me wonder why so many bow to titanium?
Yes, aluminum is a lighter metal, but to get the same strength and durability as titanium, one would have to have carry aluminum equipment that would weigh more, i.e. thicker and heavier. I carry titanium tent stakes, pot, spoon, and stove because they last and are pretty much bomb proof.
yup Al is lighter then Ti just look at any periodic table and see. But like most lighter elements strength and durability is lost the thinner it gets. I am waiting for the day when we have harnnessed the power to create the hydrogen pot and camping spork at 0.00000001 ounces.
blackbird04217
12-27-2011, 01:17
Ha.
Anyways, is strength really any sort of thought required for a pot or spork?
I can understand the tent stakes, to a degree- but even the aluminum ones stand up fairly well and bend back to shape easily enough.
jakedatc
12-27-2011, 02:02
well, you don't want a bendy spoon. especially if you eat PB or Nutella straight from the jar or use it to spread on stuff. Ti spoons can be found pretty cheap anyway.
Rocketman
12-27-2011, 09:51
I was engaged in conversation with a co-worker a few weeks back and a topic shifted to titanium. Being fairly clueless, I claimed it as one of the lightest metals, my basis was how desirable it is with other hikers, primarily ultra-lights. I've heard rumors here or on the trail that titanium cookware has no non-stick features and is rather easy to burn food on; but what are the advantages and why do people pay so much?
Aluminum is lighter. This was a counter-point to my clueless-ness and made me wonder why so many bow to titanium?
Magnesium is much lighter than either titanium or aluminum. I wonder if Mag (magnesium) wheels and ladders are still available.
Beryllium is also significantly lighter than aluminum or titanium, and when the needs are strong enough, you will find it in certain weight critical applications where the material expense and the engineering and fabrication difficulties warrant it. I believe that the optical mirrors in the Hubble Space Telescope are made from beryllium, as are a number of other space born optical systems.
Both beryllium and magnesium suffer some ductility (ie brittleness) problems related to their crystal structure having insufficient independent slip systems to allow general ductility.
Even lighter is Lithium or metallic Sodium, but these react violently with water and so they aren't practical metals for structural use despite their low density.
Lightness, by itself, is meaningless as a materials selection parameter. You need to evaluate all of the properties and reactivities of the metal before selecting one for most jobs.
Fortunately, there are thousands of metal alloys developed over history, and your choices are pretty broad. However, when there are thousands of possible choices, that means that you can hear arguments over splitting hairs to get the "Perfect" material for the job.
Years ago, I taught a course in "Materials Selection In Mechanical Design" using a book of the same name.
swjohnsey
12-27-2011, 09:54
I have an aluminimum spoon that is lighter and stronger than my titanium spoon. Depends on how it is made. Aluminum pots will get dented up which may or may not affect their performance. Aluminum heats faster. I use a titanium pot (.9l Evernew) and aluminum spoon ((Sea to Summit). I would probably use titanium stakes if I wasn't so tight.
Tipi Walter
12-27-2011, 10:01
Ha.
Anyways, is strength really any sort of thought required for a pot or spork?
I can understand the tent stakes, to a degree- but even the aluminum ones stand up fairly well and bend back to shape easily enough.
Spoons take a beating, especially in winter. I've broken a Sea to Summit titanium spoon when using it to cut frozen cheese (pun here?) on the Horse Cove trail in NC. And don't ask me how many lexan spoons I've broken trying to get out cold honey or peanut butter---around four in the last several years.
hikin_jim
12-27-2011, 12:20
Ti is great for tent stakes. I've got some very thin Ti stakes that work very well that are super light.
I've got a Ti Sierra Cup that I like. Way lighter than steel. Aluminum cups, the words of Colin Fletcher, "hellish on the lips".
Ti is marginal for pots. Ti doesn't conduct heat very well. I frequently get a "hot spot" right where the flame hits the pan. Yesterday, for example, I burned the oatmeal in the pattern about the size of an old fashioned sliver dollar. A lot depends on how you make a pot as to whether it's lighter. My Ti pot has a fry pan type lid whereas my old aluminum pot that I bought in 1986 has a plain lid. My aluminum pot is actually the lighter of the two. I probably paid 4x for the Ti one. lol.
HJ
I've heard rumors here or on the trail that titanium cookware has no non-stick features and is rather easy to burn food on
Snow Peak makes a Ti pot that's ceramic coated w/ non-stick qualities along w/ other "regular" non-stick pots/pans.
Hikes in Rain
12-27-2011, 15:21
A metallic sodiom pot. What a cruel trick, I like it! Reminds me of my first year high school chemistry class, making soap. My cute-but-ditzy lab partner somehow remembered that there is sodium in soap, and decided to drop a bit of the pure stuff into her mix. Burn marks were still on the ceiling when I graduated a couple of years later!
Beryllium is also significantly lighter than aluminum or titanium, and when the needs are strong enough, you will find it in certain weight critical applications where the material expense and the engineering and fabrication difficulties warrant it. I believe that the optical mirrors in the Hubble Space Telescope are made from beryllium, as are a number of other space born optical systems.
I would love beryllium gear, but it seems that no one is willing to take on the liability associated with manufacturing and selling beryllium gear.
Rocketman
12-27-2011, 19:47
I've heard rumors here or on the trail that titanium cookware has no non-stick features and is rather easy to burn food on; but what are the advantages and why do people pay so much?
Aluminum is lighter. This was a counter-point to my clueless-ness and made me wonder why so many bow to titanium?
It is easy to make a titanium pot which is more resistant to burning food on the hot spots. Just make the pot thicker (and of course heavier).
If you made a stainless steel pot sufficiently thin, then it too would burn food readily on the flame hot spots as there isn't enough metal to conduct heat away from the hot parts of the flame.
Aluminum (light) has pretty good thermal conductivity and in decent thicknesses will conduct heat radially away from the hot flame spot that the hot spot doesn't so readily burn food.
Copper has much greater thermal conductivity than aluminum and if the copper is thin enough, it too will do the hot spot food burning thing. It will probably also dent and wrinkle easily from the thinness.
So, what is the ideal for a pot?
Light,
strong,
Highly conductive,
cheap,
easily formed,
elastically stiff,
non-poisonous or other health issues ?
........
There is no actual answer to the question.
However, that doesn't stop people from wanting an answer, and thinking they have it.
hikin_jim
12-27-2011, 21:14
Well, for me anyway, aluminum seems the best overall in terms of price, lack of hot spotting, and weight. I do use Ti pots for when I'm just boiling water. I have to admit I really like the MSR Titan kettle. Light, strong, and can be used as a pot, mug, or kettle. I wouldn't try to do "real" cooking in it though.
HJ
fiddlehead
12-27-2011, 21:21
Aluminum has always worked for me.
About every few years,I break one so, simply take my lid (Ever-more brand I think it is) to the thrift store and buy a pot to fit it (aprox 1.5 litre) and pop rivet the handle on to the new one (never paid more than $3 for one yet, except the original)
That handle and lid has a lot of miles on it now.
I see folks paying the big bucks for the titanium and just figured they had more money than they knew what to do with.
Up to you I guess.
Yes, aluminum is a lighter metal, but to get the same strength and durability as titanium, one would have to have carry aluminum equipment that would weigh more, i.e. thicker and heavier. I carry titanium tent stakes, pot, spoon, and stove because they last and are pretty much bomb proof.
I should have mentioned the suspected connection of cooking in aluminum pots to Altzheimer's Disease, but I . . .uh . . .forgot.
Spoons take a beating, especially in winter. I've broken a Sea to Summit titanium spoon when using it to cut frozen cheese (pun here?) on the Horse Cove trail in NC. And don't ask me how many lexan spoons I've broken trying to get out cold honey or peanut butter---around four in the last several years.
I thought you didn't eat peanut butter Tipi - busted - ha ha ha
Tipi Walter
12-28-2011, 23:44
I thought you didn't eat peanut butter Tipi - busted - ha ha ha
It was actually cashew butter but these two words don't compute for most Whiteblazers.
It was actually cashew butter but these two words don't compute for most Whiteblazers.
Ha Ha - just kidding you - check out my post about weather limits - fyi - I use titanium pot but TI mining is really bad for the environment - I'd support stopping it and would use something else - the good thing (I guess) is that my TI pot and cup will probably last forever
Odd Man Out
12-29-2011, 00:02
I just thought I would point out that you are all talking about the density of metals, not their weight.
The mass (not weight) of the object is the density times it's volume.
The volume of the metal needed is a function of other properties of the metal and the function of the object.
Weight is a function of the mass and the local gravitational acceleration.
Sorry - occupational hazard
I just thought I would point out that you are all talking about the density of metals, not their weight.
The mass (not weight) of the object is the density times it's volume.
The volume of the metal needed is a function of other properties of the metal and the function of the object.
Weight is a function of the mass and the local gravitational acceleration.
Sorry - occupational hazard
All the metals im referring to are on earth at the same gravitational acceleration so...I think weight is an acceptable term to use.
Rocketman
12-29-2011, 08:38
All the metals im referring to are on earth at the same gravitational acceleration so...I think weight is an acceptable term to use.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Odd Man Out http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1231906#post1231906)
I just thought I would point out that you are all talking about the density of metals, not their weight.
The mass (not weight) of the object is the density times it's volume.
The volume of the metal needed is a function of other properties of the metal and the function of the object.
Weight is a function of the mass and the local gravitational acceleration.
Sorry - occupational hazard
Sorry, but Old Man Out knows what he is talking about. [rhymes]
The weight of a metal object depends on the product of the volume of the material multiplied by the density times the gravity term.
The "weight of a material" has no real meaning. It just sounds like it does. Or to some people, it has a meansing despite the previous.
You can quote a "density" in the English system of units as a weight per unit volume (not mass per unit volume) and then that "density" is used to rank how much a unit volume of material weighs, without being concerned with the volume (or shope) of the object.
To those who don't understand the concepts of mass, weight and density, it appears confusing. But lots of things are confusing when you don't know the basics, and politics is confusing even when you [think] you know the basics.
Weight is a perfectly acceptable unit of measure since the weight measured by anyone here is going to be virtually the same, which makes it absolutely useful for determining the relative weight (or mass) of one piece of gear to another.
"why so many bow to titanium?"
I don't cook, just boil water so my 550ml, 75g 2 1/2 oz ( with lid and handles) does the job for me.
I particularly like the way it stores with my Caldera Cone system.
The cone is also Ti , in this case it has to do with durability , flexibility and that I can burn wood inside it if I need to.
To the ones that do cook , I would not suggest Ti .
As for the volume/mass/weight bit, since the question was pretty much about pots, my simple mind translates that to :
is a 1 liter Ti pot lighter than a 1 L aluminium pot ?
And the answer is usually yes because aluminium walls as thin as the ones made for some of the Ti pots (like mine) would be too fragile.
(to be sold in shops...)
Franco
Bare aluminum will pit from exposure to salt. The pitted surface of the pot can be difficult to clean well, so many al. pot manufacturers coat their pots with nonstick materials. The nonstick materials may not be without health concerns, though (never use teflon cookware around exotic birds - the fumes are extremely toxic to them, and, being an air breathing being, I wonder just how toxic the fumes are to me).
I use titanium because it is lightweight and durable relative to any aluminum pot of comparable (or more) weight.
It is also non-reactive to foods and can't rust or corrode.
I mainly boil water and simmer foods for short periods, and yes, I have to watch the heat or things will burn, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make for lighter weight and greater durability.
I actually like the fact that the rim of the pot is cool pretty much as soon as the stove is out. I use a bandanna to pick it up.
My drinking cup is ti, also - no burnt lips like you can get from aluminum, which holds heat well and is very good for fancy cooking, but makes a pretty poor hot drink cup.
vacation
01-01-2012, 11:22
I use a large plastic cup (maybe lexan) that i have used for a few years. It is lightweight and durable. I do not believe Ti would be a significant improvement.
4eyedbuzzard
01-01-2012, 11:50
What's Ti worth? Depends upon if you're interested in scrap or primary metal, and which Ti alloy you're interested in.
Scrap prices:
Titanium $6/lb
Aluminum $0.90/lb
I should have mentioned the suspected connection of cooking in aluminum pots to Altzheimer's Disease, but I . . .uh . . .forgot.Ti is always alloyed with other metals, primarily Aluminum and Vanadium - so for all the Alzheimers worrywarts, I hate to tell you this, but there is Aluminum in your Ti pot.