Seeking assistance/opinions related to higher education, Outdoor Education

[Deadpete]

Hello :)

Me:
-24
-Live in Ohio.
-3 semesters of Mechanical Engineering
-6 semesters of Middle Childhood Education
-Have not completed a degree, for a few reasons.
--1. I was at the point in the education degree where I needed to go into schools, and my head wasn't all in it. Not that I was getting bad grades, I just didn't want to commit to in-school work and not be giving it 100% of my effort.
--2. The thought of a traditional teaching job weighs heavily on my soul. While I love to teach, it's not what I want to do. The confinement, the babysitting, the politics, etc.
-I've worked at a Boy Scout camp in PA for 11 summers. 95% of the time I've worked in the outdoor skills area, being the director of that area for six summers. I run the area, train and supervise three staff members, teach merit badges, and do other various camp jobs. I love it, and it's what I look foward to during the year.

I need to find a 'real job' similar to this position; chances are this job will require a degree.

This is where I need help : ) I've begun researching 'Outdoor Education' degrees, and ones similar, but know nobody to talk to about them. If you have any experience/opinions concerning these degrees and the universities that they are available from, please help me out.

If you'd rather not post your response on the forum you can reach me via email or private message. I thank you in advance for your time, it means a lot to me.

Kevin
gmpbss at gmail dot com

[Shutterbug]

Hello :)

Me:
-24
-Live in Ohio.
-3 semesters of Mechanical Engineering
-6 semesters of Middle Childhood Education
-Have not completed a degree, for a few reasons.
--1. I was at the point in the education degree where I needed to go into schools, and my head wasn't all in it. Not that I was getting bad grades, I just didn't want to commit to in-school work and not be giving it 100% of my effort.
--2. The thought of a traditional teaching job weighs heavily on my soul. While I love to teach, it's not what I want to do. The confinement, the babysitting, the politics, etc.
-I've worked at a Boy Scout camp in PA for 11 summers. 95% of the time I've worked in the outdoor skills area, being the director of that area for six summers. I run the area, train and supervise three staff members, teach merit badges, and do other various camp jobs. I love it, and it's what I look foward to during the year.

I need to find a 'real job' similar to this position; chances are this job will require a degree.

This is where I need help : ) I've begun researching 'Outdoor Education' degrees, and ones similar, but know nobody to talk to about them. If you have any experience/opinions concerning these degrees and the universities that they are available from, please help me out.

If you'd rather not post your response on the forum you can reach me via email or private message. I thank you in advance for your time, it means a lot to me.

Kevin
gmpbss at gmail dot com

Kevin, I am a retired college president. I will be pleased to give you some advice. If you want specific advice, feel free to pm me. I will post some general advice here because some others may benefit.

Your past history indicates that you don't have a clear vision of what you want to do in the future. You shouldn't feel badly about that. Not very many people end up working in their initial area of interest for their entire career. I had five different careers before I retired at age 62. If you call hiking full-time a career, I have had six careers.

You (or your parents) have already invested 9 semesters in education that will not enhance your earning ability very much. Mechanical Engineers make good money after they have completed their degree. Three semesters of Mechanical Engineering won't really help. The same goes for Education. If you don't complete the degree, the six semesters won't add much to your ability to earn.

Don't make the same mistake with "Outdoor Education" studies. It is a narrow field and won't add much to your ability to earn a good living unless you complete the degree.

My advice to students, like you, who don't really know what they want to do is to complete your degree in business administration. No matter what you eventually decide to do to earn a living, the things you study in getting a business degree will help you. If you really want to spend your life in the outside, a business degree will give you more access to out door industries than an outdoor education degree will. With a business degree you can work in recreation, construction, mining, timber, ranching, oil and gas; and any other outdoor industry that you can imagine. All of them hire peope in accounting, finance, marketing, and contracting with business degrees. Even if you never finish your degree, the basic courses you take in business administration will add to your value in the job market.

Just for an experiment, pick up a newspaper from any large city. Look through the help wanted ads and note what eduation will qualify you for the opening. If you find even one with "Outdoor Education" as the educational requirement, I will be surprised. You will find lots of openings looking for people with a business administration education.

I wish you the best.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Completing ANY degree is usually better than jumping majors. Finish the one you need the fewest credits to complete. Then look for the job of your choice. "Sell" the transferrable skills you learn in your degree to fit their requirements.

[mikec]

I agree with Shutterbug. Once you get a degree you will see more opportunities open up for you. And don't give up on school. I just recently got my Masters in Information Systems. And I'm 57 years old!

[daddytwosticks]

My business degree has done more for me in life than anything else. Shutterbug knows his stuff. :)

[Toolshed]

Ditto on what the others have said. Especially Shutterbug.... You need to make sure your skills are marketable and in demand. (FWIW, I was awarded an assistantship in grad school and spent a couple of years as an academic adviser in a large NE University System).
My thoughts are finish the Mech Eng and pick up some basic business courses, or even a minor in business. You have the math, stats and science Prereqs completed, you just need a couple of accounting courses, org Behavior and maybe a marketing course or two.

Unless you are truly in a very specific technical field, Most organizations want someone first and foremost, who can "fit in". That means someone who gets along with others, works well independently, has the drive to succeed, is timely, trustworthy, responsible, courteous, uses good judgment, has common sense and can stand on their own as an ambassador or the organization. In fact, I am willing to bet that if most employers found someone who had, at best, most of those traits, they'd be happy to train them in whatever field their industry is in.

[Johnny Thunder]

continuing what others have said...my business degree set me up for a really rewarding work/hike lifestyle. my first career paid well enough for me to satisfy my needs/wants and save. a consulting job has hired me back after 2 long hikes and would continue to employ me if i hadn't left the country to teach english (again, the degree...any completed degree...was good enough).

just choose something you'll enjoy, or is portable to a job/industry you'll enjoy.

[pyroman53]

I agree with most of the above posters, especially about getting any degree, and especially about the Buisiness degree. I wish to add another choice - Wildland Fire Fighting
For information about how to become a WL FF, check here: http://www.nationalfiretraining.net/fire_employment.html

I work for the feds (Forester for 35 years) and I see this career being a pretty solid one for the future. Fire is a big part of land management and will have fairly strong budgets (read career future) for some years.
You start by getting hired as a ground-pounding FF. This will usually be seasonal. Make sure you get some Biological Science college courses (24 credits) needed for advancement into "management" when the time comes. You can do this during the winters, while you build up your fire qualifications and experience.

Eventually, you'll find better jobs, working more months per year, and if you've got the moxie, you'll probably be able to move into something Permanent. There are even a few positions in Fire Prevention and Education scattered through the organizations where you can use your "education" interest and background if you're lucky enough to eventually get one of them.

The really cool thing (if you are single at least), is you may start earning enough in the summer months to pay for a rather nice lifestyle in the off-season...giving you great options to travel or attend school.
While I paint a rather rosey picture, a lot of things have to come together for this career to progress, but its a great career for someone who loves the outdoors, understands the natural world, and isn't afraid to work hard. The trick is to get hired on your first job (usually just 8-12 weeks of seasonal work) and then go from there.

[Deadpete]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm not trying to apply for spring semester, so no decisions need to be made hastily. I'm definitely open to ideas since I haven't been doing much in this front lately.

The business degree certainly sounds like great advice, and is advice I've never been given before. My initial thought is it doesn't sound right for me, but I will spend some time and think about it.

Finishing the ME degree is definitely not happening. Undoubtedly the smartest route would be to finish the teaching degree, but I just have such a strong mental block against it right now.

Back to the original ideas..
Anyone out there
1. Have an outdoor education degree?
2. Know someone with one that loves/regrets theirs?
3. Know anything about any schools that offer it?

I guess I forgot to add in my about me that I'm single, no kids, no debt, and don't mind not having a lot of money. I know one day that's all subject to change in an instant.. but I'm not willing to pursue a career I don't absolutely enjoy just for the sake of money. Might be young and stupid, but, what can you do.

[Deadpete]

Pyro your post came in while I was still typing.

I've thought about firefighting. It's one of the few job ideas that affect me emotionally when I think about doing them. I'll have to research into it, and I'm pretty sure I know someone through scouting that does exactly what you posted. I'll have to talk to him.

[pyroman53]

Go here: http://www.usajobs.gov/
Search for jobs
Search for Park Ranger jobs
Focus on Interpretation-type jobs

Here's just one of many Park Service jobs where an outdoor education "might" get you hired...

http://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/304952800

usually very competetive. Your camp experience would serve you well, as would your scouting background. By the way, I had a similar background back in the day.

As to education, a quick google search yielded many options, like this one (camon man!! you can do this):

http://www.universities.com/edu/Ohio_University_Main_Campus.html

http://www.universities.com/edu/Bachelor_degree_in_Outdoor_Recreation_and_Educatio n_at_Ohio_University_Main_Campus.html

http://www.catalogs.ohio.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=4&poid=890&returnto=164

[Toolshed]

Well, since you live in Ohio, What about instate tuition at OSU. Make an appt with a counselor in the School of Business, send in your transcripts for review and also look the the core requirements to see how many hours it would take to get a different degree. I am assuming that between the 2 partial degrees you have all the basic requirements for the first 2.5 - 3 years of most fields met. Now you just need the curriculum specific courses. Perhaps 2 semesters (and a couple of summer courses) if you time it right

[mrclean417]

I believe with 9 years of college education, no degree, in-ability to commit, that you is 'Officer Material'. After which you could use the GI bill to pay for the rest. Just try not to end up like to people I know who must continually stay in college to defer their sizeable school loan dept.

ie. business and noodles diet for the next 6 years.

[Deadpete]

Pyro, I came to this primarily outdoors based forum to find personal knowledge/opinions. I'm able to obtain factual information easily enough on my own, such as where degrees are offered, what jobs require what degree, etc. It's the behind the scenes stuff I'm interested in.. such as, 'don't go here because of abc, or, this place is amazing because of xyz.'


Toolshed, I'm not trying to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree.

[Deadpete]

Nine semesters is 4.5 years and I had the summers to commit to a job I love.
The military is not in the equation for me, too much BS. Not looking to start anything with this.
I don't have any debt atm, which is one reason I'm not willing to go get a degree for the sake of having a degree. I was pushed into going to college in the first place without being sold on the idea myself, and if/when I go back I want it to be right for me.

[Amanita]

There are a lot of jobs where having ANY degree will benefit you. For example, the state where I live (VT) a lot of the state jobs give salary based on a "pay chart." So even if your degree was in education, if you took a totally unrelated job you'd be paid based on what LEVEL of education you completed (associates, bachelors, masters, ect.)

My advice would be to follow through and get the education degree, and then use it to apply to outdoor ed jobs.

And I find it hard to believe that working at a boy scout camp could ever be free of politics, stress and BS. (having worked at one myself.)

[Johnny Thunder]

over here in korea i have two friends with outdoor ed degrees (both canadian...so, i know for a fact that thunderbay offers a program). also, another friend-of-a-friend who went to appalachian state in boone to get an outdoor ed degree. i met a lot of outdoor ed majors in johnson, vt going to the state school there while in the tail end of my LT hike.

what i've learned from observing the employment prospects of outdoor ed majors...the best case scenario is they end up in long-term temporary positions. like, ski hills that will hire them back year after year...or summer jobs with the forestry. but, normally the full-time gigs go to people with degrees in business (in the case of the ski hill or other seasonal businesses who need an office crew to run in the off-season) or forestry/environmental management (in the case of the NPS and the Forestry). the second best case is you get a job as a gym teacher, assuming your degree includes in-school teaching so you can get state board certified. and we're seeing physical education funding fall off like that for the arts. i have friends who are gym teachers and now have to cover 3 or 4 schools that used to have their own dedicated instructor.

sorry, but i can't personally respond to the love/regret question. most everyone i know with an outdoor ed degree is pretty new to the job market. tough to imagine how their area of study will impact their long-term job prospects and financial situation. but you know, at least they loved those 4 years of study, right?

[Datto]

A Bachelor's Degree (in anything) is the new high school diploma. If you don't get the Bachelor's degree it'll hold you back both right away and into the future. Just get a Bachelor's degree in something -- whichever is the quickest to obtain. Then move on to whatever presents itself as an interesting opportunity.

Datto

[shelb]

Hi,
In 1987, I graduated with a BA in Classical Studies and Psychology with a minor in Ancient Civilizations. Although I was accepted to graduate school for Classical Studies, I postponed further education to waitress and bartend due to my recent divorce and advancement into single-parenthood.

Twenty years later: I learned what I wanted to be and became a teacher at age 40.

My point: Finish the Bachelors degree before the credits expire. It was much easier for me to go back and get my major. I did not have to retake classes that "expired." However, my sister completed only 3 years back in her day. Now her classes are all void, and she would need to retake them!

While I think "Outdoor Education" is a worthy field, it is not very diverse. Talk to you local 4-year public college about something in forestry, environmental management, or business management. Any of these, especially combined with the business management, would assist in a position with the BSA (as a camp director, or district executive).

I do stress for you to finish the 4 year degree now....

[buff_jeff]

continuing what others have said...my business degree set me up for a really rewarding work/hike lifestyle. my first career paid well enough for me to satisfy my needs/wants and save. a consulting job has hired me back after 2 long hikes and would continue to employ me if i hadn't left the country to teach english (again, the degree...any completed degree...was good enough).

just choose something you'll enjoy, or is portable to a job/industry you'll enjoy.

How difficult was it to get a teaching job overseas? I have a degree and I'm working on my masters of education now, but if I can't find a local teaching job, I'll probably look overseas. Do you need the TESOL cert or will a grad degree be enough?

[Lilred]

Have you thought about a forestry degree? Forest rangers do a lot of group teaching. I teach middle school and right now is the worst time to get into education. No Child Left Behind has screwed everything up.

[bamboo bob]

Any four year degree. You MUST get your ticket punched or you will not get a decent chance at doing what you really want except by luck. Appalachian State might be a fit for an undergraduate degree. You might ask Forest Rangers or Park Service people what degree they have. I think we've all heard too much from slackers who just don't want to work very hard in school or in life. Forget math or science its way too hard for the slacker mentality. Its too hot its too cold its too wet its too dry. That's OK the world needs barristers too. And seven-eleven clerks. We do want fries with that and someone has to give them to us. That may be you.

[topshelf]

--2. The thought of a traditional teaching job weighs heavily on my soul. While I love to teach, it's not what I want to do. The confinement, the babysitting, the politics, etc.


American Education is one screwed up mother... Glad you recognized and got out, I will be quitting after this year. I'm tired of working 70-80 hour weeks and still continually falling behind because of all the political red tape. When the non-necessary red tape inhibits your ability to do your job, teaching, something is way wrong. My final straw was when they told me next year my pay will be based on student performances on standardized tests.

I went 3 years under Civil Engineering, then 3 years in Education. Now I'm trapped in education until I go back to grad school again, which I am in the fall. I've applied for other jobs and have never heard anything in return. When I've talked to employers, they basically tell me my degree is too specific. I can't use the education side, and I can't use the Math side because I didn't have the Calculus and other math's not required for education.

I will be going back for a MS in Criminal Justice and hope to become a Conservation Officer here in VA, a state trooper, or even something in the FBI or DEA. I think you're making the wise move to get out of education, even now. You gotta find what makes you happy and puts your mind at ease.

[skinewmexico]

Genius advice Shutterbug. I'm cutting and pasting that into an email to my children, although I've been hammering them for years about getting a degree that actually pays back what it costs.

[Fiddleback]

Too much politics involved with teaching. Too much BS in the military. Got pushed into college. Loves teaching of outdoor skills and running the program. Sounds like you'd fit well in something that would offer a fair amount of independent/self-starting work. But many of the careers offered above; ranger, fire fighter, etc., are some level of government jobs which themselves are replete with politics and BS, depending on your attitude towards authority, discipline, rules, etc. There is some question, however, how much more than that found in private sector jobs. Office politics? Autocratic bosses? Company policy?

I can't offer any help with all that...one either does or does not take direction well. But I think all entry level jobs will have their share of 'direction' unless you're self-employed and have only to respond to self-discipline.

I do however agree with the concept, "any degree." IMO, many jobs require a degree but the major is often secondary. Even in the military. Or, is that, especially in the military? ;)

FB

[4eyedbuzzard]

Honest advice with no sugar coating: Most of life is replete with politics and BS. Get used to it and learn how to handle it.

[pyroman53]

Kevin: I have enjoyed this discussion because it has really made me think. Thanks! Some thoughts since yesterday:

Politics and conflict are in every job...everyone either has a boss or a customer or both. Either one is always right!! If there are two or more people in your work environment, there will be conflict.

The particular college you go to probably doesn't matter as much as the fact that you went...and graduated. As to choosing a particular college because it has some particular reputation, heck, when it comes to the outdoor and natural sciences, this stuff isn't rocket surgery. College teaches you the basics and more importantly teaches you how to learn, think, and understand. The real world teaches you how to apply what you learned and actually "do" things. Most of that is just common sense.

I've met dozens of people working full time in fields you could enter into with an Outdoor Education degree and they were all enjoying their jobs. I began thinking about it and I can't think of anyone who works in or connected to the outdoors in some sort of professional context that doesn't generally enjoy their job and I've met thousands. I've never met an unhappy Park Ranger (not the same as Forester by the way), or an unhappy Wilderness Ranger...or an unhappy Parks and Rec Director. Yeah, there have been a few who were sour pusses, but they'd be sour even after they won the lottery.

Just sayin'

[lutefisk]

I know a lot of people who work in Outdoor Education. College programs they've spoken highly of include Prescott College in Arizona, Johnson State College in Vermont, and the University of New Hampshire.

Most of the people I know in Outdoor Ed. might best be described as migrant workers. They have a BA and their Wilderness First Responder certification, and work seasonal camps and programs, per diem challenge course work, and maybe spend part of the year as a ski instructor. They have no health benefits or stable income, but they can come and go as they please.

I know a few folks who work in residential treatment programs that have a strong wilderness component, and others that have tried going into business on their own. A lucky few work in programs that provide year round outdoor education services where they have benefits and stability. It's a difficult path, and to be successful you need a real passion for what you are doing, not just a desire to be outdoors. Like most of life, their are sacrifices and trade-offs as you figure out what you value the most.

The path I've followed is one of a career in social and youth services, including an outdoor program that has me out 6 - 7 weeks each year on five-to-eight-day trips including backpacking, canoeing, rock climbing, caving, etc. I give up a bit in pay to pursue things I really enjoy, and I give up some freedom and flexibility to have the benefits and security that I value for my family. If I'm ever going to thru-hike it will be after I retire, but I'm not complaining.

One of my former students plans to try the path of a lucrative engineering career with an early retirement to do the things he wants. His biggest challenge will be to keep his lifestyle from growing with his career so that he can retire when he wants.