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drdick
01-02-2012, 10:40
I am a Hut Overseer on the AT as it winds it's way through the Shenandoah National Park. At the present time PATC is replacing the old "drop privies" with moldering privies. I am interested in buying a quantity of the "No pee in Privy" signs that I have seen in New Hampshire and other locales along the Trail. Can anyone provide me with a source where I could buy the sign?:banana

4eyedbuzzard
01-02-2012, 10:44
Contact AMC, I'd guess they know, they put them there. http://www.outdoors.org/about/contact/index.cfm

Wise Old Owl
01-02-2012, 11:00
most likley custom, I am thinking you should contact a local "Fast Signs"

4eyedbuzzard
01-02-2012, 11:02
most likley custom, I am thinking you should contact a local "Fast Signs"Or stop at Staples for some sign stock and a Sharpie :rolleyes:

RWheeler
01-02-2012, 11:12
Or hire a bunch of people to just stand in the privies and stare disapprovingly at you if you decide to pee in privy.

Pedaling Fool
01-02-2012, 11:19
I imagine no guys pee in the privies, it's just much easier and nicer to go behind a tree, the exception would be when doing their "business". That only leaves girls. Is that who you want to keep out?

Don H
01-02-2012, 19:39
"GIRLS KEEP OUT" that should work;)

DBCFlash
01-02-2012, 19:42
I kinda have to pee whenever I need to "drop a deuce." If my bladders full they just happen together. I suppose I could empty my bladder prior to entering the privy for the big "download", but it would take a really conscious effort, and I'm often not that conscious.

My bad.

Lone Wolf
01-02-2012, 19:42
I imagine no guys pee in the privieswhen i drop a duece the pee invariably flows and i can't stop it. oh well

Papa D
01-02-2012, 19:51
I really wish folks would just actually re-fill the duff buckets (and use them) the addition of leaves to a composting privy is so essential and SOOOO EASY

Theosus
01-02-2012, 19:58
I kinda have to pee whenever I need to "drop a deuce." If my bladders full they just happen together. I suppose I could empty my bladder prior to entering the privy for the big "download", but it would take a really conscious effort, and I'm often not that conscious.My bad.I was thinking the same thing.... And if you have to poo bad enough, it's going to be real trouble to stand outside and pee without the other occurring too. And I'm sure they would rather have a little pee in the privy, than my underwear.

JAK
01-02-2012, 21:11
I know that in some words the pee is silent, as in "swimming".

hikerboy57
01-02-2012, 21:15
no swimming in the privies!!!

generoll
01-02-2012, 21:17
I believe that the GATC found that urine enhanced the function of the mouldering privy. Do you have actual science to back up the no pee in privy policy?

Spokes
01-02-2012, 21:27
"GIRLS KEEP OUT" that should work;)


Too funny!

NuAgeDesigns
01-02-2012, 22:02
If you would like feel free to contact me. I own a sign shop and would love to help out. Hiking NOBO in mid march.

Shop phone is 2033056163

Bruce


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.387594,-73.076753

Sarcasm the elf
01-02-2012, 23:10
I imagine no guys pee in the privies, it's just much easier and nicer to go behind a tree, the exception would be when doing their "business". That only leaves girls. Is that who you want to keep out?. Some of the better signs I've seen are just typed up on the computer, but explain the reasoning of why not to pee in the privies. (being from Connecticut I don't buy into the dont pee in the privy explanation, but I'll still respect the trail maintainers wishes)

Sarcasm the elf
01-02-2012, 23:23
I believe that the GATC found that urine enhanced the function of the mouldering privy. Do you have actual science to back up the no pee in privy policy?I recall reading a Connecticut AMC newsletter article that was in favor of peeing in mouldering privies as well, but I can't find a link to it at the moment.

Speer Carrier
01-02-2012, 23:26
Current studies show that peeing in the privies helps in the decomposition process. I think you'll see those no peeing signs coming down most places. I believe the Vermont maintaining club did the actual studies. I've been composting for years and already knew pee was a good thing for the privies. It just took the clubs a long while to discover it for themselves. But also as has been mentioned also, dropping in a handful of leaves, wood chips, or duff is also essential

Pedaling Fool
01-03-2012, 10:00
I really wish folks would just actually re-fill the duff buckets (and use them) the addition of leaves to a composting privy is so essential and SOOOO EASYThis use to be one of my pet peeves (refilling the duff buckets), but that was short-lived since I've now concluded that privies are just too nasty for me to use any longer.

And I agree that pee should generally be good for a pile; you can have decompositition without oxygen (albeit not a perferred method), but you always need moisture.

shelterbuilder
01-03-2012, 22:40
This use to be one of my pet peeves (refilling the duff buckets), but that was short-lived since I've now concluded that privies are just too nasty for me to use any longer.

And I agree that pee should generally be good for a pile; you can have decompositition without oxygen (albeit not a perferred method), but you always need moisture.

Too much urine in a privy upsets not only the moisture content, but, more inportantly it upsets the carbon/nitrogen ratios within the pile. In a "moldering privy", this isn't extremely important in the long run, since the excess will drain out, although in both a Clivus system and a "true composting privy", this can be a disaster. The excess liquid collects within the container and, by displacing the oxygen, it shuts down the aerobic decomposition and sets up the pile for anaerobic decomposition, which is characterized by that all-too-familiar ammonia odor. The addition of duff not only covers the waste to help keep down odors, but also introduces soil microbes that aid in waste breakdown.

If, however, you're working with WORMS, too much urine may serve only to drive them out of the pile, although there is not enough clinical study regarding just how much urine they can tolerate.

Based on my own (not-too-scientific) observations, this country has raised a generation of people who really don't know how to pee in the woods! If there's no toilet nearby, many of these folks will try to "just hold it" until they return to civilization.

Pedaling Fool
01-04-2012, 09:48
Too much of any one thing upsets the C:N ratio; one could argue that too much s**t upsets the ratio. However, too much pee is something I thought of when I posted, but didn't say anything, because I just don't have the practical experience working around privies to know.

However, I do know this, most guys don't piss in privies (except, of course when they do their "business"), but girls usually do go to the privy just to pee. So this has always been a thought in my mind, since I've seen the privies with the "No Peeing" signs. Do they really expect guys to not pee when doing their "business"? -- Surely that little amount of pee is not too much.

So that leaves females, are they saying they don't want females to pee in the privies? Surely (but again I'm totally speculating here) since there are so few females on the trail compared to men, does their pee really have that much of an adverse effect? Especially when you think that these relatively small number of women are not using these privies while hiking, so the bulk of their bladder releases are still in the woods. So for those reasons it's hard for me to see that there's too much pee in the privies...there's too much of something, but not pee:D


BUT AGAIN, I'm speculating and could be entirely wrong. Questions, Questions, Questions....I was always one of those annoying students that the teachers loved to hate;)

Creek Dancer
01-04-2012, 09:58
Why do men think women prefer to pee in the privies? I can't stand to use them. They are filthy. I would much rather pee in the woods.

shelterbuilder
01-04-2012, 21:44
C'mon, John - let's not turn this thread gender-phobic!

Decades ago, when we were doing the research for the Eagle's Nest privy (a "true composting privy"), we developed a formula-of-sorts to help determine the projected use levels (and thereby giving us some idea of how big to size the components). We used entries from the REGISTER BOOKS at the other shelters on our section to try to understand who "might" and who "might not" visit the privy when they visited the shelter. One of the assumptions that we made was that most day hikers probably would NOT use the privy, but that most overnight hikers probably would.

However, over the years, we've begun to believe that our assumptions were partly in error. As I said yesterday, we've raised a generation (actually, we're raising the 2nd one now, too) of people who, generally speaking, do not know how to pee in the woods! This sounds ridiculous to those of us who are out there all the time, but time and time again, I've run into Boy Scout troops whose members either are afraid to go or who just "don't know how to go" if there isn't a toilet where they can either stand (to pee) or sit (to poop). And it's NOT just the younger boys, either - some of the older ones that I've met have been ABSOLUTELY DESPERATE to find a sit-down toilet - in ANY kind of condition - so that they can finally relieve themselves.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "No Pee in the Privy" signs are not just directed at the girls - they are just as much for the guys as for the girls. (Perhaps what we REALLY need are signs telling people HOW to pee in the woods:rolleyes:)

Mountain Mike
01-04-2012, 22:57
I thought later generation composters were addressing pee problem. Or should there be a new thread with types of privys. I moldering new term for outhouse? Would love to see composters down in GA where soil/rock prevents outhouses. But it does take expense & constant effort. I have helped with recyling process & it's not for one with light stomach. Each batch has to be brought up to temp to kill harmfull bacteria. Removal from privy, mixing & monitoring. Nasty & someone has to be dedicated to job to do it. But then it can be spread to revegitation areas.

Mountain Mike
01-04-2012, 23:04
PS any hikers taking a dump at Ethan POnd Shelter in NH. I helped with air drops there. Just on a week long trip hanging out when it happened. They made 3 of the four drop in planned location & we had to clear area (fire pit area in frot of shelter) before next one got back. One load was heavy & had to be dropped at stream at edge of pond & hauled in a bit further. So when you s### there think of me. lol

jacob_springsteen
01-05-2012, 00:41
I've been composting for years and already knew pee was a good thing for the privies.

It's got electrolytes.

Pedaling Fool
01-05-2012, 08:57
If that's really the case with boys going in a privy to piss instead of behind a tree, then I gotta extract myself from this conversation. It's just totally foreign to me....gonna take some time to process:confused:

Sly
01-05-2012, 10:54
I suppose I could empty my bladder prior to entering the privy for the big "download", but it would take a really conscious effort, and I'm often not that conscious.
.

No way! That could trigger regrettable results! Put a clamp on it, then go after.

Cosmo
01-05-2012, 13:26
The issue is 'compaction'. That's what the duff is for, allowing space for oxygen to support active microorganisms that quickly break down the waste. Some moisture is essential for this process, but too much can make things clump together, slowing things down. Frankly, for most guys tapping a kidney is pretty easy pretty much anywhere ("it's so handy at picnics", I've heard said) and the small proportion that is released while "dropping a duce" (I love that term!) is not an issue. As females still make up less than half the hikers on the trail, I don't think their liquid contribution creates a noticeable problem. At high use areas, such as Upper Goose Pond Cabin, we've provided two seats in each outhouse--the liquid goes into a bag of coal or charcoal (to reduce odor) buried in back of the privy, and then into the ground.

If anyone has the opportunity to service one of these privies, I think you will be amazed that how un-offensive the composted product is. There is no bad smell, no recognizable shapes, and the volume is reduced by well over 50%. The biggest problem for maintainers is the non-degradable stuff that gets put in there as well. Everything from baby wipes to tampon applicators, to clothing (a surprising number of waistbands survive intact while the rest of the (cotton) garment is eaten). These all have to be removed manually from the compost and packed out. As they say, nothing should go into the privy that hasn't gone in your mouth first, except TP.

Invariably, whenever a group of maintainers meet, the talk always comes around to waste management.


Cosmo

ocourse
01-05-2012, 20:15
Just a small, simple note will be better. Conscientious folks will comply because it's their nature, others won't comply because it isn't their nature.

"Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?"

shelb
01-05-2012, 21:40
As they say, nothing should go into the privy that hasn't gone in your mouth first, except TP.

Cosmo

So, there is no problem with leaving TP in a privy? Or, should it be packed out?

Lone Wolf
01-05-2012, 21:41
So, there is no problem with leaving TP in a privy? Or, should it be packed out?live it in the privy of course

Awol1970
01-05-2012, 22:04
I can't get past the fact that some people don't know how to pee in the woods.

Lone Wolf
01-05-2012, 22:08
I can't get past the fact that some people don't know how to pee in the woods.do you live in a house? do you pee outside every day and nite?

Sarcasm the elf
01-05-2012, 22:34
do you live in a house? do you pee outside every day and nite?I tried that for a while but my parents put a stop to it when I was six or seven.

Mountain Mike
01-06-2012, 00:21
do you live in a house? do you pee outside every day and nite?

Pretty much. Why live where you can't piss out your back door?

rocketsocks
01-06-2012, 02:27
Hey, if you pee on a cow fence......will it getcha?

JAK
01-06-2012, 09:08
It depends on the type of composter, climate, soil type, and what you may be using for organic material if any, and how much 'volume of traffic' you are dealing with. Some outhouses are like gremlins. You don't want to add water.

FlyPaper
01-06-2012, 11:20
I really wish folks would just actually re-fill the duff buckets (and use them) the addition of leaves to a composting privy is so essential and SOOOO EASY

Most of them I come across are full of trash. Really hate how inconsiderate some people can be.

pyroman53
01-06-2012, 22:06
Yes I live in a house, and now I gotta go outside and pee!!

aaahhh. Now that's good! Stars are out. Three quarter moon!! Thank goodness for SW style architecture...we like our property walls!!

Now, for another beer...

shelterbuilder
01-06-2012, 22:36
Most of them I come across are full of trash. Really hate how inconsiderate some people can be. There is "an attitude" that is prevalent among some people: "everything for me, and to the devil with you". Improper trash disposal plays into this attitude ("why should I carry out my trash when you can do it for me").

Some of the problem is ignorance (didn't know - didn't think about it), and some of the problem is "just being ignorant". Heck, I've gone up to run the composter at Eagle's Nest and found not only trash, but ROCKS down the hole - some rocks half as big as a man's chest! (How they got them through the seat I'll never know!)

Fortunately, people like that are a minority....

Pedaling Fool
01-07-2012, 10:43
It depends on the type of composter, climate, soil type, and what you may be using for organic material if any, and how much 'volume of traffic' you are dealing with. Some outhouses are like gremlins. You don't want to add water.Yes all those things are a factor, but from my limited observation, I can say they all need maintenance to some degree. The only place I saw maintenance on a daily basis was thru the Whites, but that's only because they had the manning and infrastucture to do it.

Here's one example of composting privy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBZwOqLJvBA They have nearly 30 buckets for a household of 5 people. It does give one a sense of how tough it is to manage a privy on the AT, not to mention the people that abuse that service :mad:

I know these people in the video are living in a "sustainable" fashion, but it really isn't a way for the rest of the 300million people in the U.S. to live. That's where the Green Living people really don't understand that many of the things they promote as sustainable really isn't for large populations. Science is the only way to protect the environment, not all this green living BS.

shelterbuilder
01-08-2012, 10:57
Yes all those things are a factor, but from my limited observation, I can say they all need maintenance to some degree. The only place I saw maintenance on a daily basis was thru the Whites, but that's only because they had the manning and infrastucture to do it.

Here's one example of composting privy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBZwOqLJvBA They have nearly 30 buckets for a household of 5 people. It does give one a sense of how tough it is to manage a privy on the AT, not to mention the people that abuse that service :mad:

I know these people in the video are living in a "sustainable" fashion, but it really isn't a way for the rest of the 300million people in the U.S. to live. That's where the Green Living people really don't understand that many of the things they promote as sustainable really isn't for large populations. Science is the only way to protect the environment, not all this green living BS.

Sustainable? Well...what is sustainable is not always practical. Flush toilets generate an INCREDIBLE amount of contaminated water, but on the other hand, in cities (high population density and not much "extra" space), there isn't another practical way to remove waste for proper treatment and disposal EXCEPT a water-effluent system. If I lived in a rural area, I would defintely consider a composting toilet for my home, even though it takes my own personal efforts to run it. But I live in the city, so it's just not practical. (Heck, if my neighbors knew that I was composting in my tiny backyard to produce fertilizer for my garden, they would probably call Code Services to come out and fine me!)

Pedaling Fool
01-08-2012, 15:01
That's kind of what I'm saying. Much of the "sustainable" lifestyles are dependent on living in the country with a lot of land, but the simple fact is we all can't live that way. We need people to live in crowded cities; it may be a crappy life compared to living "out in the open", but in the big picture it is easier on the environment. Cities do protect the environment. If everyone were to live "in the country" it would be very hard on the environment, regardless of how "green" their lifestyle.

WingedMonkey
01-08-2012, 15:25
All the OP asked for was a source for a sign. You build it, you maintain it...you get to make the rules.

4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2012, 16:02
All the OP asked for was a source for a sign. You build it, you maintain it...you get to make the rules.Yeah, but the politics of poop is so much more interesting than the decomposition of it. :rolleyes: :D

shelterbuilder
01-08-2012, 19:09
Yeah, but the politics of poop is so much more interesting than the decomposition of it. :rolleyes: :D

I LOVE IT!!!:) I've GOT to remember that one for a new sign....

Pedaling Fool
01-09-2012, 09:41
All the OP asked for was a source for a sign. You build it, you maintain it...you get to make the rules.Cranky old fart:D

WingedMonkey
01-09-2012, 11:58
Cranky old fart:D

My home is on a septic tank and drainfield. The system has not been opened or repaired or pumped for the 40 years since we built the house.

There are signs in our bathrooms (of course they start with a polite welcome).

I know how to handle crap.

:sun

DripDry
01-09-2012, 12:08
Agree with WingedMonkey. 50 responses (now 51), and all the guy asked was where to have a sign made. Amazing.

drdick
01-11-2012, 17:32
Thanks for your comments. With what you have said a good idea perhaps, but pee does helps the process.

Don H
01-11-2012, 21:56
Agree with WingedMonkey. 50 responses (now 51), and all the guy asked was where to have a sign made. Amazing.

And I gave him the answer in post #7.