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jlb2012
03-13-2005, 09:02
This is mostly a discussion about people who pretend to be thru-hikers but in fact are just trying to work a scam so as to get donations.

The reason I bring this up is that I have some doubts about a hiker by the name of GreenHorn whose story is that he is a SOBO that started in October. There is a thread over on thebackpacker that sounded to me like a scammer was working a mark - http://thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/37017,3.php - and I have already indicated my opinions over there. In any case GreenHorn is described as male, over 6 foot, approx 225 lbs., wearing jeans and a sweatshirt, seen 3/11/2005 at (?) 501 shelter heading toward the William Penn shelter.

Tha Wookie
03-13-2005, 09:30
Jeans?

:-?

MOWGLI
03-13-2005, 09:36
I was just looking at the NY Times bestseller list online. Princeton University Press has published a book by Harry G. Frankfurt entitled On Bulls h i t. Here's an excerpt from the first chapter;

"One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bull****. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bull**** and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern, or attracted much sustained inquiry.

In consequence, we have no clear understanding of what bull**** is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. ... "

Sound revealing...

Here's a bit more from Amazon dot com. This makes me think that On Bulls h it should be required reading for regular forum visitors. :D


"Frankfurt, one of the world's most influential moral philosophers, attempts to build such a theory here. With his characteristic combination of philosophical acuity, psychological insight, and wry humor, Frankfurt proceeds by exploring how bull**** and the related concept of humbug are distinct from lying. He argues that bull****ters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bull**** need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bull****ters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant. Frankfurt concludes that although bull**** can take many innocent forms, excessive indulgence in it can eventually undermine the practitioner's capacity to tell the truth in a way that lying does not. Liars at least acknowledge that it matters what is true. By virtue of this, Frankfurt writes, bull**** is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are."

orangebug
03-13-2005, 09:47
My mind boggles at the number of threads that would have been immeasurable improved with that message. :clap

Jack Tarlin
03-13-2005, 12:28
For those interested, there is a very lively discussion of this issue in the Trail Talk forums at www.thebackpacker.com

I am presently being lambasted for my indifference, skepticism and lack of Christian chariry by suggesting that I think this guy is full of baloney.

What do the rest of you think?

smokymtnsteve
03-13-2005, 12:39
I think you're probably having a "grate" time if your being "lamb' blasted"

no cheese with the lamb either ..esp if it is sheep milk feta.

Skyline
03-13-2005, 12:54
I read the thread on backpacker.com, and it seems the jury is out on this guy. He could be legit, but there are parts of the story like jeans and cotton clothing in the Whites during winter that raise a flag. But he doesn't seem to be directly soliciting help, what he's doing is more like yogi-ing.

Is it possible that he is a real AT hiker, poor and down on his luck, who has embellished his story a bit? OK, maybe more than a bit. He sure wouldn't be the first. If I was in PA I'd probably help him with spare gear, maybe some other Magic. It wouldn't hurt me much, and might help him. If he makes it down to SNP I hope to run into him.

ed bell
03-13-2005, 13:07
Read the thread. Seems to me that a beggar would have quite a bit of success on the AT. Hikers are a generous lot. No telling what this character started out with gear wise or where he started walking, but he could start looking more legit pretty fast with people going out looking for him with clothes, stoves, money, food, ect. The picture I get from reading the thread is that he is full of it. Like someone over there said, "If I lost my job and had no money, I'd like to go to DisneyWorld. Can I have some of your spare money?" (not an exact quote) I think offering to get him off the trail to find work in a city would be the only responsible thing to do for him charity wise.

Jack Tarlin
03-13-2005, 13:21
Skyline:

You obviously mean well, but here's the problem:

The guy is broke, and while he's not overtly begging, he did in fact say that he'd take money if people had any extra to give. He's a trail mooch, period, and if he walked all the way from Maine, or even most of it, in wintertime, in blue jeans and a sweatshirt, then I'm the King of Romania.

But the point is, if people give him a few bucks, then what's gonna happen in the next town, like Duncannon or Boiling Springs? How far do you think he's gonna get on twenty or thirty bucks?

Fact is, unless he takes some significant time off the Trail and gets a job, then he's gonna work this hard-luck sob story "hiker-down-on-my-luck" nonsense for the next 1175 miles.

And this does NOT help the hiker community, not when so many folks think we're essentially bums and misfits anyway. There are indeed places on the Trail where cars don't stop for hitchikers or restaurants where hikers aren't welcome, or too much time on a park bench might invite a lookover by a patrolman, and that's PRECISELY because of the mis-conceptions that some town folks get about hikers. And remember, many folks judge ALL hikers by the first one they meet, and if that first person is a trail mooch who's out yogi-ing and letting people know he'd sure appreciate any "extra" cash....well if that's the first A.T. hiker they encounter, then what are they gonna think about when they meet the next one?

Wanna concrete example? Try this: Just 2 nights ago, a local guy who knows Miss Janet dropped a guy off here at the house who was in no way, shape, or form a hiker. He was a genuine freight-train hobo. But this well-meaning local had NO IDEA what a hiker hostel is all about or what Janet's place is like: It's obvious he thought he house was some kind of homeless shelter or facility for indigents. And she's been open for years! How many other folks in Erwin think like this? And how many of them think ALL hikers and backpackers are like this?

We fed the guy a great meal, and Janet took him to Johnson City where there are all sorts of facilities and services. She said she plans to talk to the guy who dropped him off, and in a kind way, tell him what she's all about here, but the thing is, it makes you wonder, how many folks in EVERY Trail town feel this way? How many other folks, when they see a backpacker, are actually thinking "Another bum!!"

Giving money to a Trail bum is good Christian charity, and makes the giver feel all warm and fuzzy. But the guy isn't going to go far on twenty bucks and a bag of extra Liptons. He's gonna do the same thing in Duncannon and
Boiling Springs and Front Royal and so on, or he will as long as folks accept his tale of woe and help him out as a "fellow hiker in need".

This guy needs to get a job, Skyline, and become self-suporting, or he needs to get off the Trail.

Helping folks like this stay on the Trail makes the giver feel good, and it sure makes the Trail mooch feel good. But it is NOT good for the A.T. community, and in fact, helps sustain misconceptions and false perceptions about hikers, and these perceptions can absolutely affect how individuals and even communties view hikers in the future.

Every hiker can tell you a story about standing in the hot sun (or pouring rain) for hours, and nobody will stop and take 'em to town. Most hikers can tell stories about getting bad looks in towns, or have been treated brusquely or rudely in a restaurant or food market. Ever wonder why that might be?

Hikers that can't support their journeys without constant dependence on others, whether the moching and begging is casual or overt...these folks need to get off the Trail, Skyline. Helping them out might make you feel good for a little while, but it's not doing any good for the Trail.

smokymtnsteve
03-13-2005, 13:26
why work in a city???

he might be a good ole country boy and just hate the city...

IMO it is cruel and unusual punishment to send good ole country boys to the city to be a slave

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!
The real work of men was hunting meat. The invention of agriculture was a giant step in the wrong direction, leading to serfdom, cities, and empire. From a race of hunters, artists, warriors, and tamers of horses, we degraded ourselves to what we are now: clerks, functionaries, laborers, entertainers, processors of information."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!


The Hungry hunter hunts best!

"

Jack Tarlin
03-13-2005, 13:35
We didn't SEND anyone anywhere, Steve. We took the guy to the city cuz that's where he said he wanted to go, OK?

And as for the gentleman on the Trail, encouraging someone to support themselves without being a mooch or without taking advantage of the kindness and gullibiity of others is NOT forcing anyone to be a slave.

Now flare another bowl and settle down before you distress yourself.

smokymtnsteve
03-13-2005, 13:48
so what the guy is a trail mooch...we don't know the guys background or trials of life he may have been going thru, maybe a while on the trail...recieving generosity and traveling and thinking about his life is just what the guy needs. The AT isn't just for your elite thru hiking community...
it is a trail of pilgrimage....Peace Pilgrim herself traveled the trail with nothing...accepting food only when given her...

anyone who wants to should help the guy along,

Judge not that ye not be judged

orangebug
03-13-2005, 14:04
Steve, I agree with you in general, but Jack has a very good point.

Hikers are dependent on the reputation of those who have gone before us. Mooches and thieves hurt our reputation. Miss Janet's reputation should be as an excellent hostel, not as a flop house or community kitchen. The fact that a neighbor dropped an urban pioneer off at her front door should lead us to wonder why he equated "bum" with "hiker."

For all of our joking about hiker trash and such, we are a pretty elite group of athletes who participate in a sport without reimbursement and leave taxpaying opportunities behind for weeks and months at a time.

Rocks 'n Roots
03-13-2005, 15:08
I'm amazed how some people can take a perfectly similar position to Wingfoot on Trail responsibility and then turn around and reject him...

Jack Tarlin
03-13-2005, 15:11
Merely because we might agree on some issues certainly doesn't mean we have to agree on all of them.

What planet are you from anyway?

smokymtnsteve
03-13-2005, 15:33
Skyline:

YouEvery hiker can tell you a story about standing in the hot sun (or pouring rain) for hours, and nobody will stop and take 'em to town.

yea..so what ..you want me to cry because some elite hikers can't get a RIDE to town??? no one owes a hiker a ride to town.

Skyline
03-13-2005, 15:55
From what I read on the other site, this hiker did allegedly say he was trying to get to Duncannon and planned to look for work once he got there. If true, he already "gets it."

Jack, if there is any credible first-hand knowledge that Greenhorn has scammed a hostel, trail angel, or made a nuisance of himself in a town near the AT I would join you in criticizing him. Until then, I prefer to deal with guys like him as individuals, innocent until proven guilty, and not try to lump them in with others who have in fact done damage to the reputation of hikers.

Coming strictly from the Common Sense Dept., I'll just say this: If Greenhorn is all the things some are saying he is or might be, he's also something else: Not Too Bright. He would be able to succeed at his "game," if he has a game, a lot easier and with a lot more hikers, if he was in Georgia or North Carolina right now. That he chose to spend the winter on the Trail--or at least part of the Trail--up north I think lends a little credibility that he might not be such a bad dude. I mean, how many hikers would he have encountered in the north during winter? How many trail angels are out seeking to provide Magic? Hostels open?

But it's ALL guesswork right now--all we have are some anecdotal reports on the internet, where everybody's allowed to be a critic. In person, on the Trail, I'd like to think most of my fellow human beings here would be more compassionate. I'm betting they would.

Mountain Dew
03-13-2005, 16:26
Peace Pilgrim was a wacked out begger. If she only ate when somebody offered her food then she would have starved. From what I've read she was the master at beating around the bush and the look of "oh pitiful peaceful me". Give me a break. Peace Pilgrim... hahaaaa

Try hiking the trail and see how far you get with broke if you don't beg or strongly hint that you are in need of others money/food.

A-Train
03-13-2005, 16:41
Jack, if there is any credible first-hand knowledge that Greenhorn has scammed a hostel, trail angel, or made a nuisance of himself in a town near the AT I would join you in criticizing him. Until then, I prefer to deal with guys like him as individuals, innocent until proven guilty, and not try to lump them in with others who have in fact done damage to the reputation of hikers.

Exactly so. There probably isn't much information about him scamming businesses because most likely he hasn't been out on the trail for very long, if at all. I admit I don't know the guy and the sitution but it's most likely that a guy in cotton clothes has not just hiked thru the winter in New England. Most liekly he recently found the trail as a place to go and realized he could take advantage of a vulnerable trail community or has been doing more town time and car riding than hiking. Whatever the case, it's all speculation.

Whatever the case, I still agree that if you don't have the money, you shouldn't be on the trail or should be able to sustain yourself without relying on handout and begging. The trail only exists because of give and take. If it was all take, take, take we wouldn't have much of a trail and a surrounding community.

Skyline
03-13-2005, 16:59
I'll admit my BS-Radar is set off whenever I meet someone with a large backpack wearing blue jeans. But it is possible that someone without much money would be wearing cheaper cotton clothes instead of the pricier and less-available synthetics many of us swear by. It's even possible a newbie wouldn't know any better.

While I would never recommend anyone do it, we must acknowledge that those from generations ago did routinely work and hike in the mountains wearing natural fibers. Most survived.

Miss Janet
03-13-2005, 19:23
Geez, people, learn to read.

Nowhere, and I mean NOWHERE did I ever say this guy waas guilty of scamming or stealing from anyone.

What I said, and I'm sorry that some folks evidently missed it, is that I don't believe this guy is a southbound thru-hiker who has ben hiking all winter, and I don't believe it's appropriate for people to be out on the Trail if they can't take care of themselves without relying on guilt-tripping strangers with tales of woe about lost gear, checks not arriving in the mail, etc. This happens every year. The fact that it's an annual occurence doesn't make it OK.

Everyone's coming up with a round of applause that this guy has expressed an interest in getting to Duncannon so that he can maybe find some work so he can continue. Wonderful. I'm sure he's a real pilar of the coomunity and I applaud his work ethic. But maybe he should've got things together financially long before he got to Duncannon.

If you read the posts on thebackpacker.com, you see that while he's not necessarily out on a corner with a tin cup, he's perfectly happy asking folks if they have any extra dollars to spare.

Unacceptable.

Making the point that some folks shouldn't be on the trail if they are reduced to beggary or soliciting charity doesn't make anyone un-christian or unfeeling. He may very well be a perfectly nice guy.

All I'm saying is that doing the Trail like this is not a good way to go, and if he's going to continue on the Trail, he really needs to get it together so that like any other responsible long-distance hiker, he is independent, self-reliant, and self-sufficient.

Or do folks actually think it'd be great if everyone hiked this way?

Cuz I really don't think that'd be good for the Trail.

rickb
03-13-2005, 19:29
Looks like Jack has adopted a nom de plume.

smokymtnsteve
03-13-2005, 19:43
it seems that during this past thru hiking season .. we had at least one of our members here on WB ..that had run short of funds and sought funding to continue there hike, we had quite a discussion on of it here on WB.

Lots of folks here at WB glady donated to keep this hiker hiking...

what is different about this present situation???...no one is being forced to give this person anything.

Jack Tarlin
03-14-2005, 08:29
My apologies....the above post is obviously mine, written on Janet's computer. (She hadn't signed out when I posted).

Incidentaly, in speaking of the the guy who was dropped off at Janet's a few days ago by well-meaning neighbors, I used the term "freighttrain hobo." I've recently heard from a hiker whose trail-name is similar to this, who felt I was talking about him: I want to make it clear that the guy I was talking about is NOT an A.T. hiker, and the fellow I was writing about is NOT a member of the hiking community. My apologies to any hiker who thought I was talking about them.

That being said, I stand by my previous comments about self-reliance on the Trail, and the need for hikers to make their own way.

Steve: I suggest you re-read my comments about this. Soliciting one's way down the Trail by accepting charity or donations is akin to panhandling. You want to defend it? Go ahead. I can't believe that most folks agree with you.

The Old Fhart
03-14-2005, 09:09
Interesting thread. I’d like to consider 3 possibilities or combinations thereof:

1) Greenhorn is a scammer and smart enough to get some other hikers to supply him with food and money. If this is the case then he doesn’t deserve any help. If he is capable enough to hike south to PA from where ever, then he is fully capable of finding a job and supporting himself. Hiking the Appalachian Trail is not a necessity or a right, it is an option. Many people work two jobs and save for years to hike the trail, why should any one expect to be given a free ride?

2) He knows what he is doing, has actually hiked SOBO from Katahdin, isn’t begging, but others just want to help him out. My chances of winning the lottery are far better than that! More likely than not he has just got onto the trail and has done little hiking. If he knows what he is doing, he wouldn’t have the type of clothing and gear he reportedly has under winter conditions.

3) Skyline suggested perhaps Greenhorn isn’t too bright. If this is the case than giving him money to continue hiking on the trail isn’t too bright either. Giving an inexperienced, ill-prepared hiker money to continue in winter conditions is just setting up another search and rescue, or possible body recovery mission.

I also have a problem with Jack’s stand on this question. Jack knows from long talks we’ve had on this subject that I consider his view far too moderate. Also, Any one who knows Jack knows how generous he is to other hikers and how many hikers he has helped throughout the years.

Bottom line is I wouldn’t give this guy a cent. Want to help him? Get him in touch with social services.

Kozmic Zian
03-14-2005, 15:04
Yea.......The problem is like this. There are lots of unskilled 'hikers' who hear about or come upon the AT. It can appear to some to look like an 'easy' way to bumb along. Or walk and beg and whatever. Every season, somebody makes it up The Trail with little or no money and naievely thinks they can just strike out and go. Inevitably, some will make up a story to 'cover their tracks' for one reason or another. These folks are easy to disern as 'non-hiker' types. Their gear is 'not like' most LDH's gear. They usually have some 'weird story' or something. Usually, but not always, they can be trouble.

My advice is to be as friendly as possible, during the time encountered. But, when time to go, say g'buys and go. I quess you could say it's (these encounters) a part of 'Trail Knowledge'. That is.....'How to Handle Strange Encounters'. Most of the Trail Literature has excerpts on such behavior. The ATC guidebooks mention it. It's a matter of staying with 'Those you Hike With'.....and avoiding uncomfortable situations. Because, the goal is to hike and get there, not to get sidelined with annoying and problematic exchanges with 'non-hiker types'. KZ@

Doctari
03-14-2005, 23:32
Seems to me I read of this type of "scam" in David Brill's book, "as far as the eye can see" My copy is loooooong gone, but seems to me David hiked in the early 70s. This guy had "official Looking" park service type patches on a uniform type shirt, offered himself as a guide to unsuspecting AT hikers, for a fee of course. Just before the Smokies, he would dissapear, , , Poof, usually along with a few choice pieces of gear from his "clients"

I think I met a similar person in 02 just out of Hot Springs. To quote from the Hitchiker's guide: He was "Mostly harmless"

Nothing new under the sun is there :datz

Doctari.

MoBeach42
12-04-2005, 23:41
OK, I know that this post was last used a LONG time ago - and wanted to add to the information that I have and inquire 'WHAT HAPPENED TO GREENHORN?'

I met him in Waynesboro, and the story I got, which made sense, and think it makes some more sense than what was posted above, was that he was homeless (admitadly), his mother had died, he was a lost soul, so started hiking south from either Francoina notch, N. Woodstock, or Glencliff the fall of last year. he went shelter to shelter. I believe that he was there. he said that he got his trail name in VT. he had no stove so he was cooking on fires. some shelter in VT has scratched into it "only rookies have fires" or something like that - and he didn't know how to spell rookie or whatever the word was, and took greenhorn. I guess since I saw that scratched into the shelter in VT (i can look up which it was) then i believed his story. Thoughts?

DaSchwartz
12-06-2005, 23:49
And as for the gentleman on the Trail, encouraging someone to support themselves without being a mooch or without taking advantage of the kindness and gullibiity of others is NOT forcing anyone to be a slave.

It happened folks. I agree with Tarlin for a change.

Moxie00
12-07-2005, 09:37
On my thru hike and many days on the trail in Maine each year I have met many hikers with no means or money. Just visit The Place the week after trail days. There were at least a dozen people staying there pretending to be thru hikers. They drank all day in the bars, mooched equipment and money from thru hikers and no one ever saw them on the trail before or after. Every year one fellow starts at Springer and rarely makes it past Wessler, same story every year. He is cripple, was made that way by an operation gone bad, and lost his malpractice suit. He will tell you he was robbed in either a bus or train station on the way to the trail and lost his money. He bum's cigarettes, food, laundry money, and anything else he needs. The hostel operators all know him and just ask, "Broke again this year?". I met another hiker in Ct. who said his gear was stolen in New York and was trying to make it to Maine with the clothes on his back. There was a fellow near Hanover that arrived on the bus with just enough money to buy a hat, no food but a sleeping bag and tent, he was going to fast all the way to the Whites. Most 2000 alumni remember Screamer, the homeless hiker, put on the AT in Georgia by the cops with just a yellow pail with his posessions in it. He never bumed, worked for a place to stay, and lived out of hiker boxes and dumpster diving. He cooked over an open fire with a #10 can a his pot. He would not accept handouts and he made it all the way to Maine so it can be done. Sometime you will find the homeless sleeping in shelters near the trail but they are uaually harmless and just pretend to be hikers so they can stay there, In Virginia we had "Queen Elizabeth", a homeless woman who claimed to be the rightful Queen of England living all summer in a tent behind a shelter. The trail has some wonderful characters, when you hear some of their stories just take it with a grain of salt. If they ask for help I would pay for their laundry or give them extra food but never money. I have no respect or didn't even like any of those bums that had moved into The Place for a few weeks, not one of them signed the register or paid a cent to stay there.