Why do so many here hate Boy Scouts?

[Grayhair]

This thread has been copied over. The thread topic starts in post #29. Please see the original thread, now located in Straight Forward to continue discussion on places to donate gear. Keep it civil please or else your participation may be curtailed and/or the thread may be placed into the Sensitive Trail Issues Forum. Thanks.

This maybe a little off topic, but I just wanted to throwout there this thought. When I need tothin out my gear, and who hasn’t, I always call the local Boy Scout council anddonate my gear to them. I know that someyoung man is getting some quality equipment and an opportunity to experiencethe great outdoors. Just a thought foreveryone out there. Maybe you have yourown special organization or charity that could like to support. Pass it on dude.

[Feral Bill]

BSA has bad issues. They aren't getting a thing from me.

[rocketsocks]

Ouch Bill,Yes they have,but that's not the kids fault.What kid wouldn't want some nice gear that only most working adults can afford.I ask you to reconsider your position.:)

[max patch]

BSA has bad issues. They aren't getting a thing from me.

I'll give twice as much to make up for FB.

[rocketsocks]

I'll give twice as much to make up for FB.What if we all send our worn out piece of s..t gear we don't want to bill.:Dboy that sure would be a lot of stuff:eek: to funny. Just kidding Bill:)

[BobTheBuilder]

BSA has bad issues. They aren't getting a thing from me.

Flame on, oh great Thread Drifter! If only the BSA brought dogs or carried guns, we could really get this thread rockin'.

[rocketsocks]

Yeah that's what I want a bunch of para military kids runnin around with gun's and pit bulls sayin sleep here.

[moytoy]

I have two grandsons in the BSA in Maryville, Tn. What are the bad issues if I may ask?

[shelb]

ALL organizations have SOME issues. (Actually, ALL people have SOME issues of some sort...lol)

I have been a volunteer Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and now Venturing Crew (BSA co-ed group ages 14-21). When the program operates as intended, it does an outstanding job assisting young people grow to be leaders and productive citizens. My Eagle Scout son has completed thousands of hours of community service, and now continues to do so as an adult. My two teen sons are working on their Eagle Projects, one of which will be a dog park in our community.

If those issues have to do with the few sickos who did bad things, please do not hold that against all. That logic is the same as lumping all of any group into a category because a few were bad....

[harryfred]

I could give some of the JUNK! I have carried. and It would be better than the JUNK I seen them carry. Serious it sounds like a good idea and How about them Girl Scouts.

[Old Hiker]

BSA has bad issues. They aren't getting a thing from me.

Specifics, please?

Old Hiker
Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 109, Valrico, FL

[harryfred]

I have two grandsons in the BSA in Maryville, Tn. What are the bad issues if I may ask?
My BIG issue is stoves will you people teach them how NOT to burn down a shelter before you bring them out!!! Man I have the stories. And *** is wrong with a home made alky.

[gumball]

Girl Scouts camp and hike, too! :)

[Old Hiker]

Girl Scouts camp and hike, too! :)

Yep - last year, I lent a bunch of gear to a Troop of GS's that were hiking almost the same section of AT that my Troop of BS's were. Different week, though. Traded the lending for a Wilderness First Aid course!

[TOMP]

Specifics, please?

Old Hiker
Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 109, Valrico, FL

Seriously you dont know? No gays allowed. Breeding intolerance is in thier bylaws.

[Captain_Slo]

BSA has bad issues. They aren't getting a thing from me.
FB Send your stuff to Girl Scouts! This fact is often overlooked but girls like to camp and stuff too.......they're Less Likely to have gear than Boy Scouts anyhow. Boy Scouts tend to be like dynasties or legacies (lots of people will include BSA in their wills!) while Girl Scout Troops are ephemeral and usually lack the same sort of money or gear reserves that you'll find in a Boy Scout troop with both Money and Time on their side. Plus, GSUSA is Progressive! Take that Boy Scouts.

[Captain_Slo]

you can find out who to contact by finding your local GS council at : http://www.girlscouts.org/councilfinder/

[Enic]

My BIG issue is stoves will you people teach them how NOT to burn down a shelter before you bring them out!!! Man I have the stories. And *** is wrong with a home made alky.

The problem with homemade alky stoves is that the national council decidied that, to prevent liability issues, boys are "forbidden" from using homemade gear. So, showing scouts the "theory" of how to make alky stoves for "theoretical" use is ok, though. Stupid rule, but it's there for a reason?

[ljcsov]

Growing up the kids I knew in BSA were very strange. Lol.

[hunter121]

Thanks for this post guys I was going through the same thing
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/20.creation.jpg

[Feral Bill]

1. BSA excludes gay and non religious people from its otherwise often worthwhile programs, and thus
2. BSA teaches impressionable boys that people who are gay or not religious are not good enough. This in the cause of developing character.

Not very helpful, friendly, curtious, or kind.

I am aware that a number of scout leaders are great people who take liberties with BSA policy, and that many scouts do not, in fact meet Scouting's "high standards." How about you good guys make some noise for the benefit of ALL boys at the national level?

Meanwhile, Campfire, Girl Scouts, school groups and others are also eager for all out support.

[daddytwosticks]

Hmmm. Is the same true for Cub Scouts? When my son and I were active in Cub Scouting many years ago, I never witnessed ANY intolerance. I would classify my son and I as non-religious (not overt) and we experienced NO problems. :)

[Amanita]

Hmmm. Is the same true for Cub Scouts? When my son and I were active in Cub Scouting many years ago, I never witnessed ANY intolerance. I would classify my son and I as non-religious (not overt) and we experienced NO problems. :)

In my experience it's more "don't ask, don't tell" on the religious front. But for example, if your son were to ask to exclude god from the scouting oath he could be kicked out of the organization for revealing that he does not believe in god. Both atheists and agnostics are considered "amoral" because they do not worship a god.

My question is how do you teach tolerance, and speak out against homophobic slurs, in an organization that openly (and apparently legally) engages in homophobia?

[Papa D]

BSA has bad issues. They aren't getting a thing from me.

yep - I totally agree - I wouldn't donate to them either - I like giving old sleeping bags and general camping stuff to homeless folks who really do use it.

[Papa D]

1. BSA excludes gay and non religious people from its otherwise often worthwhile programs, and thus
2. BSA teaches impressionable boys that people who are gay or not religious are not good enough. This in the cause of developing character.

Not very helpful, friendly, curtious, or kind.

I am aware that a number of scout leaders are great people who take liberties with BSA policy, and that many scouts do not, in fact meet Scouting's "high standards." How about you good guys make some noise for the benefit of ALL boys at the national level?

Meanwhile, Campfire, Girl Scouts, school groups and others are also eager for all out support.

yep - I also see "scout leaders" out teaching kids how to do the stupidest things - like wash dishes in a creek, trench tents, throw knives, build campfires by pouring fuel on wood, burn foil waste and almost every conceivable moronic outdoor practice - Outward Bound, Summer Camp Programs, NOLS, or just good parents - Mom/Dad/Kid(s) groups are MUCH more beneficial to youth that I know. Obviously, the non-tolerance of atheists and gays (and their thinly veiled right-wing attitude) is completely unacceptable (to me). Feral Bill is spot-on. Heck, find a 18-20 year old thru-hiker on a tight budget and mentor them or donate some stuff to them - what could be more fun for a Whiteblazer?!

[Papa D]

Hmmm. Is the same true for Cub Scouts? When my son and I were active in Cub Scouting many years ago, I never witnessed ANY intolerance. I would classify my son and I as non-religious (not overt) and we experienced NO problems. :)

I'm sure there are facets of the organization that are not too overtly pushy - kind of like playing church basketball - you just never were confronted - but it IS an official part of the organization's policy - I'm really not sure how they get away with it - one would assume (hope) that a court challenge someday soon will bust them.

[Captain_Slo]

yep - I also see "scout leaders" out teaching kids how to do the stupidest things - like wash dishes in a creek, trench tents, throw knives, build campfires by pouring fuel on wood, burn foil waste and almost every conceivable moronic outdoor practice - Outward Bound, Summer Camp Programs, NOLS, or just good parents - Mom/Dad/Kid(s) groups are MUCH more beneficial to youth that I know. Obviously, the non-tolerance of atheists and gays (and their thinly veiled right-wing attitude) is completely unacceptable (to me). Feral Bill is spot-on. Heck, find a 18-20 year old thru-hiker on a tight budget and mentor them or donate some stuff to them - what could be more fun for a Whiteblazer?!

Scout groups are volunteer organizations and as such are only as good as their volunteers! Girl Scouts (especially) needs more leaders who are knowledgeable and willing to take girls camping! My co-leader just participated in our local council's camp training--the trainer didn't even know how to set up the tent and many of the women admitted they would never take their girls camping because they didn't believe the girls were capable.... so maybe the best thing WB'ers can donate is their Time!

[Don H]

Watch for the spin off from this thread.

[Don H]

There are many here that seem to hate the Boy Scouts. Why?

[Lone Wolf]

bad scout leaders? kinda like the dog thing and bad owners. i personally have no problem with scouts

[canoehead]

Fact is. BSA is a private organization who has had a set of rules for it's members since 1910.
A Scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion. If you click this link you'll find all the awards offered. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Awards/ReligiousAwards/chart.aspx (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Awards/ReligiousAwards/chart.aspx) . I think you'll find BSA accommodates many religious views and scouts value these personal religious achievements.
As far as the gay and non religious people. BSA has a program called Learning for life. This program was started to meet the needs of these people too. Since LFL's introduction in 1991, BSA has since dropped the discriminatory policies regarding both the leaders and youth in LFL programs. On the contrary BSA does not promote discriminatory policies, but actually teaches scouting families to be accepting of others, (that's the courteous & kind part of our scout law)
Boy Scout Oath On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:


Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.
Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.
DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.
DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.
Boy Scout Law A Scout is:


Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

I've been a Proud member of the BSA since the late 60's and still active, true it's had it's up and downs but I'd say quit being the discriminatory people (Haters and those sighting inaccuracies above) you are and get your facts straight. Scouting, Boy or Girl Scouting, is still the best program out there that actually includes and welcomes the participation of it's families and adult leaders. God bless.

[Don H]

Next month I will be doing a presentation/slide show on the AT to about 300 adult Scout leaders. This is the second of several scheduled. I expect to talk with over 1,000 Scouts and adults in the next few months. If you have some valid concerns I can pass them on.

[JAK]

Some people have problems with any group they aren't a member of. Personally, I like the concept behind scouting, so I have alot of patience for scouts, even when the concept isn't always well executed. Hitler Youth would be an extreme example. Child molesting and cover ups would be another. As Lone Wolf said, don't blame the scouts, at least not until they get a bit older, and even then on a case by case basis. As far as group size goes, I think smaller younger kids should naturally be in larger groups, but groups of older scouts can and should be broken up into smaller groups. This is for many good reasons. The best troops probably do this naturally. The ultimate goal should be to prepare these kids to be able to hike by themselves at some point, when they are ready. The focus should be more on becoming a natural and sustainable part of nature, and less on becoming part of a society that has become the antithesis of nature and sustainability, but we could all do better in that regard.

[Ender]

Mainly I'd say it's because the hike in large groups that take up most or all of the shelter/tent space, and then stay up late talking in their tents while others are trying to sleep. As Lone Wolf mentioned, it's bad/lax leaders that let this behavior happen.

That said, I like the boy scouts, and enjoy when I run across them on the trail. I've had countless good interactions with them.

[Spokes]

It all started with the Boy Scout manual advising people to dig a trench around their tent before it rains.....

[lemon b]

Ear plugs work.
No issue here I just move on.

[backtracker2]

i agree with lone wolf... it isnt the scouts, it's their leaders. I have had many encounters with scouts on the trail over the years, and anytime there was a problem, it was a direct result of clueless, inexperienced leaders. Of course, I have run into some troops who had good leadership, that were well organized, aware of LNT, and were thoughtful in shelter campsites. However, IMO, these are in the minority.

[canoehead]

Don
Thanks for volunteering your personal time for scouting and promoting the AT.
The BSA has a lot of troops that will be using the trail, I would ask that you focus part of your presentation on LNT and how BSA needs to be very vigilant in this. That seems to be where I see and hear most of the complaints about groups in the woods. I've been a Scout, Scout Master and now a BSA Ranger, Owner of www.tekoamountainoutdoors.com (http://www.tekoamountainoutdoors.com) I was also a Ridge Runner for the AMC in the Sages Ravine area in CT so I know first hand that some groups can do better out there. Remember these scouters are ambassadors for BSA, potential section & thru hikers and stewards for the outdoors. YIS

[BobTheBuilder]

How do they get away with it? Because we live in a free society, it is a private organization, it receives no government funding, and membership is voluntary, that's how they get away with it.

If you don't like what the Boy Scouts teach, don't join. Even better, start your own volunteer organization, teach what you like, and let the world take shots at YOU.

[dshideler]

I for one am glad to see that there is still an organization out there that for the most part stands on the values that it was founded on. So many organizations that were founded on certain values have been forced by our government to allow the acceptance and even teaching of certain beliefs that are totally outside of the scope of what they were founded on in the name of acceptance. If you feel so strongly that homosexuality should be allowed to openly take place around grade school children and that the mention of God should not be allowed, then I suggest that you start your own organization.

[louisb]

Today's scouts will be tomorrow's hikers/backpackers. As a former scout that is how I was introduced to hiking and camping. To many kids today never go outside or do anything in the wilderness. I have tried several times to get my nephew to go camping with me, he has never been, but if it doens't include a xbox and an internet connection he is not interested.

--louis

[Pedaling Fool]

Some leaders are like having someone of the Religious Right and a LNT fanatic all rolled up in one. Ugly, ugly, ugly -- people I just love to hate. But I really don't understand why it turns into such a hot topic here.

[JAK]

I find the whole Eagle Scout thing a little over the top.
But hey, a kid could do worse.

[B-Rabbit]

Today's scouts will be tomorrow's hikers/backpackers. As a former scout that is how I was introduced to hiking and camping. To many kids today never go outside or do anything in the wilderness. I have tried several times to get my nephew to go camping with me, he has never been, but if it doens't include a xbox and an internet connection he is not interested.

--louis

Agreed I was only in for a couple of years, and that's how I found my appreciation for nature. The kids deserve these opportunities.

[Lyle]

I was with a group of older Scouts at Watauga Lake Shelter. At first they were all just sitting around, moaning and bellyaching. There were two who had not arrived yet, one of the younger/overweight boys and one of the heavier adults were having a very rough day and were last seen several miles back. One leader and a couple of the stronger boys backtracked to check on/help the two stragglers. The boys seemed REALLY reluctant to go back, but eventually agreed. I kinda thought to myself at first that they were a bunch of selfish/lazy cads. But in conversing with those remaining, found out they had just done their longest day ever, and all were pretty beat.

The "rescuers" arrived back after about an hour, carrying the stragglers packs and encouraging them on. No recriminations of any kind were expressed by anyone. Once all had a half-hour rest, camp chores were completed with minimal direction, and the mood improved. They made a nice fire, were very friendly. The Leaders camped behind the shelter, the boys to the front and side. Cooperation was very much in evidence. Some of the best entertainment was watching both the boys and leaders trying to hang their food bags on the bear pole without falling down the hill. The boys overall, did a better job, but we all got a good belly laugh.

As the evening wore on, the adults wandered off to bed, leaving instructions for the boys to be considerate of us and not to stay up too late. My hiking partner and I also hit our bags, but were still enjoying the boy's banter at the fire. Soon, one of the older boys informed the rest that it was time for bed, and to quiet down. All complied immediately, the fire was extiquished, gear stowed, and it was off to bed for all. A few more minutes of very quite talk and jokes, then total peace.

This ended up being a very impressive group. They operated as I hope is the goal of all Scouting, where the boys are guided, but take the ultimate responsibility in doing things right. It was also a very diverse group including Asian, Black, European, and Hispanic representatives in both the youth and leaders.

There are great Scouting groups out there, but I do agree, they are not consistent, and some of the National policies leave a LOT to be desired. Best to judge the groups individually.

[JAK]

Agreed. That should be the main focus in my opinion. Get them out there.

[JAK]

What we may fail to teach them, nature might.

[4eyedbuzzard]

There are many here that seem to hate the Boy Scouts. Why?The expulsion of Darrell Lambert was pretty much the final straw for me as far as supporting the big organization known as BSA. Lambert was an Eagle Scout that was drummed out as an young adult / leader because he refused to profess belief in a "God". BSA even suggested to him to just make something up - but Lambert refused to be dishonest - who gets the good ethics / honesty / trustworthy grade here? Then throw in ther homophobic bigotry just for good measure.

I don't hate Boy Scouts. The kids are generally good, and the local troops are usually doing great stuff, led by a few parents who really care and do a lot with little support. I was a scout for several years and as a young adult helped lead my uncle's troop, mostly because so many parents wouldn't.

But IMO the politics of the organization as a whole no longer represents what scouting was supposed to accomplish. How does suggesting that atheists lie, and excluding people based on their sexuality, build character? To me, it builds bigotry and little else.

Your question might be better phrased, "Why do the Boy Scouts hate so many?"

Fire away.

[Lyle]

I agree 4eyedbuzzard, I used to be pretty heavily involved in Scouting, until the National Policies started making NO sense to me. It's unfortunate, because on a local level much good can be and is done.

[Feral Bill]

Hmmm. Is the same true for Cub Scouts? When my son and I were active in Cub Scouting many years ago, I never witnessed ANY intolerance. I would classify my son and I as non-religious (not overt) and we experienced NO problems. :) Same orginization, same policy. Less likely to become an issue I suppose.

[Feral Bill]

I'm sure there are facets of the organization that are not too overtly pushy - kind of like playing church basketball - you just never were confronted - but it IS an official part of the organization's policy - I'm really not sure how they get away with it - one would assume (hope) that a court challenge someday soon will bust them. Courts have sided with BSAs claim that as a private religious organization they can discriminate, just as I can call them on it.

[skinewmexico]

If you don't like what the Boy Scouts teach, don't join. Even better, start your own volunteer organization, teach what you like, and let the world take shots at YOU.

Oh wait, that would take more effort than just bitching about Christians. Funny how "tolerance" doesn't extend to Christianity. It sure seems to extend to Islam.

[Lostone]

If your going to do a presentation to a group of scouters.......Please tell them to limit their group size to 10 or less and not to sleep in the shelters.

When I backpack with out my scouts I don't like seeing a scout troop rolling into a campsite because you never know what the troop is going to be like. It could be a group that is mature and quiet or a group playing capture the flag or hide and seek after dark. The reality of it is I more often than not benefit with extra food......I have been fed numerous times by scout troops/Patrols..


Far as scouting goes........Lone Wolf hit the nail on the head. Scout leaders are like Dog owners....some good some bad.


Scout groups are the most visible and recognizable groups using the trail......While they pull their fair share of bone head moves, they get blamed for stuff happening that they simply did not do.

I am an adult scouter with an innercity troop and thanks to many people on WB I was able to take my scouts backpacking. I received around 12 donated packs, older stoves, a few tents.....The boys have gone out twice since it happened and they are planning a trip in april. So my opinion is biased. I would like to thank the folks who sent gear and the boys really enjoy it.

[Lostone]

If your going to do a presentation to a group of scouters.......Please tell them to limit their group size to 10 or less and not to sleep in the shelters.

When I backpack with out my scouts I don't like seeing a scout troop rolling into a campsite because you never know what the troop is going to be like. It could be a group that is mature and quiet or a group playing capture the flag or hide and seek after dark. The reality of it is I more often than not benefit with extra food......I have been fed numerous times by scout troops/Patrols..


Far as scouting goes........Lone Wolf hit the nail on the head. Scout leaders are like Dog owners....some good some bad.


Scout groups are the most visible and recognizable groups using the trail......While they pull their fair share of bone head moves, they get blamed for stuff happening that they simply did not do.

I am an adult scouter with an innercity troop and thanks to many people on WB I was able to take my scouts backpacking. I received around 12 donated packs, older stoves, a few tents.....The boys have gone out twice since it happened and they are planning a trip in april. So my opinion is biased. I would like to thank the folks who sent gear and the boys really enjoy it.

[Papa D]

Scout groups are volunteer organizations and as such are only as good as their volunteers! Girl Scouts (especially) needs more leaders who are knowledgeable and willing to take girls camping! My co-leader just participated in our local council's camp training--the trainer didn't even know how to set up the tent and many of the women admitted they would never take their girls camping because they didn't believe the girls were capable.... so maybe the best thing WB'ers can donate is their Time!

I have spent years taking girls (and guys) and co-ed groups camping through my summer camp programs - literally hundreds of kids and their parents know me - I get calls all the time f but I'm not too interested in the scout organization though - sorry - and while we're at it, I'd say that girls in the 11-15 year old range can develop a much BETTER skill-set than guys the same age, so let's go ahead and add overt sexism to the scout groups while we're at it (it goes along with their all-American right-wing, manly man, girly girl b.s.)

[Don H]

I saw more college groups on the trail in one month than Scout groups during the six months I was out. I met large groups (over 20) from Perdue, Dartmouth, and Harvard, plus other school groups. But I agree large groups is a problem that is not easily solved. As a rule you need at least two adults to go on a trip and there's just not a lot of adults willing to take a bunch of kids camping on a weekend, much less backpacking. This makes it hard to break up the troop into smaller groups.

The first time I hiked the AT was in Maryland in 1969 as a new Scout. Our Scoutmaster told us that this trail went all the way from Georgia to Maine. I remember the guys talking about how cool it would be to hike the whole trail. Back in those days only about 300 people total had thru-hiked.

Also I tried to start a new thread because I didn't want to hijack the dog thread.

[Don H]

PapaD, You do realize that BSA's mission is not to teach boys how to camp and backpack but to "prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." The outdoors is just the environment that we choose to teach in.

[Tenderheart]

In my experience, I have had some good interactions with BS and some really bad ones. In the bad cases, the leaders, not the boys, were to blame, IMO.

[TOMP]

There are many here that seem to hate the Boy Scouts. Why?

I dont think anyone hates them. I just dont support them.

[Captain_Slo]

I have spent years taking girls (and guys) and co-ed groups camping through my summer camp programs - literally hundreds of kids and their parents know me - I get calls all the time f but I'm not too interested in the scout organization though - sorry - and while we're at it, I'd say that girls in the 11-15 year old range can develop a much BETTER skill-set than guys the same age, so let's go ahead and add overt sexism to the scout groups while we're at it (it goes along with their all-American right-wing, manly man, girly girl b.s.)

What skill set are you referring to?

Also: GSUSA and BSA are under different world organizations (WAGGGS in case of GSUSA and WOSM in the case of BSA) so it's not fair to lump them into a single category 'Scout Organization'.

[Seatbelt]

I have two grandsons who have been involved in the BSA for several years now, and I am very proud of both them and their local organization (Fredricksburg, VA).

[Miner]

A question to those who don't like the Boy Scouts. Does this mean you boycott the trails that they help build (As an example, some troops helped build parts of the PCT.)? I mean, you don't want to look like you support them or anything, right? :p

[chief]

The expulsion of Darrell Lambert was pretty much the final straw for me as far as supporting the big organization known as BSA. Lambert was an Eagle Scout that was drummed out as an young adult / leader because he refused to profess belief in a "God". BSA even suggested to him to just make something up - but Lambert refused to be dishonest - who gets the good ethics / honesty / trustworthy grade here? Then throw in ther homophobic bigotry just for good measure. Yet Lambert had no problem being dishonest the years leading up to his Eagle award and afterwards taking on an asst. scoutmaster role where he signed on the dotted line, professing agreement with BSA principles including religious.

[Camping Dave]

yep - I also see "scout leaders" out teaching kids how to do the stupidest things

Scouted as a youth. Adult scout leader now.


like wash dishes in a creek

I never saw this once in 35 years of scouting.


trench tents

Heard about it when I was a kind. Never saw it done even one time in 35 years.


throw knives

Never saw an adult scout leader teach scouts to throw knives.


build campfires by pouring fuel on wood

Nope. Never seen a scout leader do or teach this either.


burn foil waste

No again.


almost every conceivable moronic outdoor practice

Well, we don't all have the same brainpower or inventive imagination as you.

[TOMP]

A question to those who don't like the Boy Scouts. Does this mean you boycott the trails that they help build (As an example, some troops helped build parts of the PCT.)? I mean, you don't want to look like you support them or anything, right? :p

What a flawed argument, do I have to agree with the personal beliefs of every AT trail maintaince worker too? I like how easy it is for people to twist this into something that its not. People who dont support BSA dont like the national stance of the organization. They are not trying to take away any positive experience you may have had. They are not saying everyone in the organization is a horrible person.

[Doctari]

There are many here that seem to hate the Boy Scouts. Why?

For me, it's not the scouts per se, but of the (about) 6 "Scouting groups" I have met along the way, the vast majority of leaders were, IMHO totally clueless; This was their first camping trip, &/OR they were using a boyscout manual from 30 or more years ago. There was 1 "Leader" per 10 - 20 kids & he made no effort to keeping the kids from,,,, well the only word that fits most situations I've been in: MOLESTING the other campers in the area. Throwing any & every thing in the fire pit, cutting on (I stopped them before they got too far) live trees, siting on or "exploring" other campers gear, etc.
However, my last encounter, the leader was a former Thru hiker & had military experience: The kids were polite, helpful & camped well away from the rest staying at the shelter. They left others gear alone, unless they had asked for a demonstration (a few of us had alcohol stoves, they thought that was way cool) & offered to get water, which was a fairly long & steep hike away, as at many AT shelter sites.
I had almost moved on when this group arrived, I was glad I didn't. I will still avoid "Boy Scouts" or other large group for the reasons above, but now it is somewhat tempered. And yes, I do have to somewhat blame the leadership of BSA, Offer training, or give updated manuals that don't say stupid stuff like; "Trench all the way around your tent". or "Burn all of your trash" or (& I don't know if it has ever said this, but I've seen enough signs to think it does) "Cut down every thing in sight & try to burn it!" AND the scout (Troop?) leaders should make the effort to actually know what they are doing! In this day & age leading a group of kids into the woods without any idea of what you are doing is inexcusable! The information is there, take the effort to learn it.

[rocketsocks]

A few years back I was involved with and had the good fortune to help out in building a patio for a local church.The eagle scout whos project it was had to get the permits required by the township,prepare the site,schedule material drop off and over see the construction.Being in construction for over 30 plus years,few jobs have gone this smoothly as this one did.Good job Andrew!While hiking I always stop to read the small placards that are along side a bridge,foot path or hand pump.These guy's are growing into some fine young men,and if you don't think they have opinions about what has gone on in there organization with regard to policy...you'd be wrong,just ask one.You gotta stand for something ,or you'll fall for anything.

[Papa D]

Scouted as a youth. Adult scout leader now.



I never saw this once in 35 years of scouting.



Heard about it when I was a kind. Never saw it done even one time in 35 years.



Never saw an adult scout leader teach scouts to throw knives.



Nope. Never seen a scout leader do or teach this either.



No again.



Well, we don't all have the same brainpower or inventive imagination as you.


I was hired once as a head rock climbing guide (along with a few assistants) to handle climbing for a huge group of scouts encamped at Standing Indian Campground, NC - the fathers and leaders were absolutely clueless and did EVERYTHING that I listed above and more. They scoffed at leave no trace and broke many of our guide service safety rules at the climbing site -- one Dad even fell bouldering (in boots!) where I told him not to go and hurt his hand wrist bad enough for me to have to write an accident report. These guys were all clueless - when it started to rain on the last night, they all just climbed in their SUVS to "ride out the storm." They trashed Standing Indian Campground and added about 3 or 4 campfire rings with rocks out of the creek (that I returned). Awful people -- I KNOW that there are exceptions but this was a BIG WELL ESTABLISHED troop - I know that these dudes ARE the rule. My recollection is that this was a gathering of several troops - there were about 100 kids and about 12 "leaders" - they were all working on merit badge stuff - their skill-sets were hopelessly outdated and they were bent on resume-building - heck, they couldn't lash their coolers to their cars and roamed the wet woods in jeans - it was a joke.

[Tenderheart]

One can argue all day long about whose fault this is or isn't. But here is a stone-cold fact. If you want to clear out a shelter or campsite, simply announce that a group of scouts is headed this way. Works every time, whether they deserve it or not.

[Don H]

When I started this thread (which was rolled back into the dogs in shelters discussion??) I wanted to give those who often like to take jabs or snipe at BSA, never missing a chance to make a snide remark about Scouts, a chance to get their concerns heard. So now I have the opportunity to speak to a large number of Scout leaders and so here's your opportunity to get you complaints aired to those that can make changes. Lets face it, all the complaining y'all do here gets no where. I'm a member of both the Scouting and hiking community so if there are legitimate problems relating to the AT and Scouts I can bring them up. However complaints about atheists, gays or girls not being allowed to be members does not have anything to do with the subject of hiking the AT so I won't be discussing that. No one I'll be speaking to has any power to change those things anyway.

When you see a group of scouts on the trail maybe you can give them and their leaders the benefit of the doubt. The boys probably don't backpack often, maybe only one weekend a year. They probably don't have the experience or nice equipment that you and I have. Much of the equipment my guys have I've begged to get. These camping trips they go on might be the only chance they get to be out of a city. The adult leaders that you say are so incompetent might just be the only one who would volunteer to spend their weekends taking boys out camping. They might not be expert campers and hikers but I can assure you that they care for the boys and want to help them become good citizens and self reliant young men. These adults probably work, have families and other obligations too but have chosen to help a bunch of kids have fun and learn and hopefully have a positive influence on them. Also the adult male leaders (there are lady leaders too) might just be the only male figure a boy gets to interact with, many of my boys come from low income broken homes with no fathers. So with that being said I'll get off my soapbox and let you air your concerns.

[Papa D]

A few years back I was involved with and had the good fortune to help out in building a patio for a local church.The eagle scout whos project it was had to get the permits required by the township,prepare the site,schedule material drop off and over see the construction.Being in construction for over 30 plus years,few jobs have gone this smoothly as this one did.Good job Andrew!While hiking I always stop to read the small placards that are along side a bridge,foot path or hand pump.These guy's are growing into some fine young men,and if you don't think they have opinions about what has gone on in there organization with regard to policy...you'd be wrong,just ask one.You gotta stand for something ,or you'll fall for anything.

no doubt - some scouts do some good stuff and there are good leaders - my apologies to the good ones but I still maintain that the culture of the organization is discriminatory, sexist, right-wing, and mainly meat-headed. It's about teaching boys to be tough and stupid and girls to be sorority girls - the "outdoors" is a platform that they mostly misunderstand or have abandoned,

[Papa D]

When I started this thread (which was rolled back into the dogs in shelters discussion??) I wanted to give those who often like to take jabs or snipe at BSA, never missing a chance to make a snide remark about Scouts, a chance to get their concerns heard. So now I have the opportunity to speak to a large number of Scout leaders and so here's your opportunity to get you complaints aired to those that can make changes. Lets face it, all the complaining y'all do here gets no where. I'm a member of both the Scouting and hiking community so if there are legitimate problems relating to the AT and Scouts I can bring them up. However complaints about atheists, gays or girls not being allowed to be members does not have anything to do with the subject of hiking the AT so I won't be discussing that. No one I'll be speaking to has any power to change those things anyway.

Good - point - hopefully the courts will someday.

When you see a group of scouts on the trail maybe you can give them and their leaders the benefit of the doubt. The boys probably don't backpack often, maybe only one weekend a year. They probably don't have the experience or nice equipment that you and I have. Much of the equipment my guys have I've begged to get. These camping trips they go on might be the only chance they get to be out of a city. The adult leaders that you say are so incompetent might just be the only one who would volunteer to spend their weekends taking boys out camping. They might not be expert campers and hikers but I can assure you that they care for the boys and want to help them become good citizens and self reliant young men. These adults probably work, have families and other obligations too but have chosen to help a bunch of kids have fun and learn and hopefully have a positive influence on them. Also the adult male leaders (there are lady leaders too) might just be the only male figure a boy gets to interact with, many of my boys come from low income broken homes with no fathers. So with that being said I'll get off my soapbox and let you air your concerns.

fair enough - I always try but these groups are MESSY - wish they would plan on smaller groups and plan better but I'm going to cease picking now

[Amanita]

I do not hate the boyscouts. I have very conflicted feelings about them, as having worked with them I have seen both good and bad.

As for "Camping Dave" asserting that Boy Scouts do not do the things Papa D has mentioned... well yes, they do.

Washing dishes in creek - I saw a troop doing this on the AT in Connecticut in May of 2011. As well as dropping food on the ground around the shelter without picking it up (trail mix mostly), cutting live vegetation to clear tent sites, and deciding that the water source (as stream) needed a dam, and damming it up with sticks and stones from around the stream.

Throwing knives - as an archery instructor, I was asked to allow my range to be used for throwing knives by scouts, a scoutmaster, and a few of my fellow counselors.

Starting fires with accelerants - If you have EVER been to a "campfire ceremony" I can almost guarantee there was an accelerant in the pre-built campfire when it was lit. I have both built these and taken part in the ceremonies to light them, and everything from kerosene to alcohol to Vaseline is used to make sure that they catch properly the first time. These products were also commonly used in Scoutcraft for lighting cooking fires, and even in the wilderness survival class to light a camp fire.

Burning Trash - The wilderness survival campout regularly burned their trash, both campers and counselors. The same counselor, ironically enough, also was responsible for teaching LNT.

Yes the BSA builds interpersonal ties, is capable of fostering a sense of community, responsibility, independence, and doing lots of other good things for growing boys. And most of the scouts I have met who made it past the first 3 years are people I respect and admire.

Putting a bunch of pubescent boys together into a testosterone party and sending them out into the woods has a lot of potential to go very, very wrong. Scoutmasters and other leaders are capable of turning these trips into a positive lesson that will not impact nature or the experience of other hikers, but all too often they use the excuses of reliving their youth and "boys will be boys" to ignore the impact they are having. And don't get me started on the elitist attitude that some scouts/masters develop once they get a few knots on their uniform.

No organisation is perfect, and I don't expect them to be, but I definitely understand why people would chose not to support the BSA.

[jesse]

I wouldn't send my kid off on a camping trip with openly gay men.

[Don H]

Trenching tents has not been taught to Scouts since 1965. My '65 handbook mentions it, subsequent editions do not. BSA advocates and teaches Leave No Trace to Scouts and leaders, not saying everyone is getting the message though.

[Papa D]

I wouldn't send my kid off on a camping trip with openly gay men.

why? is your kid a boy or a girl? would you send them off camping with a leader of the opposite sex? If not, why not? This is the EXACT type of homophobic, and sexist attitude that should not be supported and the Scouts are rotton to the core with it.

[Papa D]

I do not hate the boyscouts. I have very conflicted feelings about them, as having worked with them I have seen both good and bad.

As for "Camping Dave" asserting that Boy Scouts do not do the things Papa D has mentioned... well yes, they do.

Washing dishes in creek - I saw a troop doing this on the AT in Connecticut in May of 2011. As well as dropping food on the ground around the shelter without picking it up (trail mix mostly), cutting live vegetation to clear tent sites, and deciding that the water source (as stream) needed a dam, and damming it up with sticks and stones from around the stream.

Throwing knives - as an archery instructor, I was asked to allow my range to be used for throwing knives by scouts, a scoutmaster, and a few of my fellow counselors.

Starting fires with accelerants - If you have EVER been to a "campfire ceremony" I can almost guarantee there was an accelerant in the pre-built campfire when it was lit. I have both built these and taken part in the ceremonies to light them, and everything from kerosene to alcohol to Vaseline is used to make sure that they catch properly the first time. These products were also commonly used in Scoutcraft for lighting cooking fires, and even in the wilderness survival class to light a camp fire.

Burning Trash - The wilderness survival campout regularly burned their trash, both campers and counselors. The same counselor, ironically enough, also was responsible for teaching LNT.

Yes the BSA builds interpersonal ties, is capable of fostering a sense of community, responsibility, independence, and doing lots of other good things for growing boys. And most of the scouts I have met who made it past the first 3 years are people I respect and admire.

Putting a bunch of pubescent boys together into a testosterone party and sending them out into the woods has a lot of potential to go very, very wrong. Scoutmasters and other leaders are capable of turning these trips into a positive lesson that will not impact nature or the experience of other hikers, but all too often they use the excuses of reliving their youth and "boys will be boys" to ignore the impact they are having. And don't get me started on the elitist attitude that some scouts/masters develop once they get a few knots on their uniform.

No organisation is perfect, and I don't expect them to be, but I definitely understand why people would chose not to support the BSA.

This is an excellent and thoughtful post. I met two boy scouts in 2010 end to ending the Long Trail - they were both Eagle Scouts and were doing EVERYTHING right - they were impressive people - McDuff and VanDuzzle (?), I believe. There are exceptions and these guys were it. I think everything must be better in Vermont.

[TOMP]

I wouldn't send my kid off on a camping trip with openly gay men.

Thats because your a bigot.

[shelb]

...I still maintain that the culture of the organization is discriminatory, sexist, .... It's about teaching boys to be tough and stupid and girls to be sorority girls -...,

The girls in my BSA Venturing Crew would disagree. They joined Venturing to find more adventurous activities. Our past activities have included: rock climbing, luging, high ropes courses, snowboarding, backpacking, camping, and scuba-diving. Sometimes, I note that the girls in my Crew are more serious about this stuff than the boys in it, probably because they don't take it for granted as much.

My boys involved in BSA have learned to cook amoung other things...

Plus, although a female leader, I have more backpacking experience than any of the male leaders.

Again, just like any other organization, there are good apples and bad apples.

[hikerboy57]

why do we have a thread encouraging hatred of any kind? these posts are getting nastier by the post.why is there a constant need to find ways to divide us?there are good people and bad people. this is true of most any "group" of people.why cant we promote the same tolerance i experience when im out on the trail, peaceful cooperation, which for the most part, has been my experience. it seems here on WB, it gives one a chance to vent or to carry on in a way they probably wouldnt under the same circumstances on the trail.im not sure i included enough question marks??????????????????????????

[Papa D]

The girls in my BSA Venturing Crew would disagree. They joined Venturing to find more adventurous activities. Our past activities have included: rock climbing, luging, high ropes courses, snowboarding, backpacking, camping, and scuba-diving. Sometimes, I note that the girls in my Crew are more serious about this stuff than the boys in it, probably because they don't take it for granted as much.

My boys involved in BSA have learned to cook amoung other things...

Plus, although a female leader, I have more backpacking experience than any of the male leaders.

Again, just like any other organization, there are good apples and bad apples.

Cool - I was hired once to take a "venturing crew" rock climbing and they were fun - that's when I learned the the regular scouts didn't allow or support co-ed groups which I thought was a little "weird" - that's also before I learned of all the official discriminatory policies. Boys should OF COURSE learn to cook - why should this be UNUSUAL? Girls should OF COURSE do EVERYTHING the guys do - am I supposed to be impressed - I hike and climb with as many girls as I do guys, Why should THIS be unusual - it's 2012, not, 1975!! I'm stoked that you are out there getting it done (regardless of your gender). Your girls may disagree, but the BSA has OFFICIAL discriminatory practices. There is no question about it.

[Papa D]

Thats because your a bigot.

I agree that he probably is but this thread is getting a little out of control - like others have mentioned - it's partially my fault because I (like you) just say what I think sometimes. We all need to cool it and be a little nicer - like now.

[Feral Bill]

.im not sure i included enough question marks?????????????????????????? You need at least six more to be correct........................................... ...................

[Papa D]

why do we have a thread encouraging hatred of any kind? these posts are getting nastier by the post.why is there a constant need to find ways to divide us?there are good people and bad people. this is true of most any "group" of people.why cant we promote the same tolerance i experience when im out on the trail, peaceful cooperation, which for the most part, has been my experience. it seems here on WB, it gives one a chance to vent or to carry on in a way they probably wouldnt under the same circumstances on the trail.im not sure i included enough question marks??????????????????????????

I totally agree - let's all be nicer - thanks for the reality check. Yes - you have enough of these: ????

[fins1838]

Dont think 15 & 16 year old kids even know if they're straight or gay yet. Some people just aren't happy unless they're miserable. (think about it) BSA is a good organization. Any large organization is going to have some mis-guided people. And some of this has to do with religious beliefs which no one has a right to debate.

[Pathfinder1]

Hi...


I don't think I know anyone who hates Boy or girl Scouts.

In our area, there are many tax-free organizations...including the thousands of acres owned by the Scouts. We taxpayers have to make up for the taxes that these orginazations are not paying. That hurts...!!

[TOMP]

I agree that he probably is but this thread is getting a little out of control - like others have mentioned - it's partially my fault because I (like you) just say what I think sometimes. We all need to cool it and be a little nicer - like now.

I dont take discrimination lightly and I dont care about being nice to someone who is perpetuating bigotry. This post was intended to make that person think am I being a bigot? With that said I will stop fueling the fire.

[Don H]

So what I'm hearing is:
1. Scout leaders should try to keep group size to 10 or less.
2. Don't use shelters or camp near them if you have a big group.
3. Practice LNT
4. Be considerate of others

I'll bring up 1 and 2.
3 and 4 should be standard procedure but a reminder might be in order.

All the nasty stuff is way over my pay grade so as I said before it won't be discussed. If it keeps getting nasty here I'm sure the thread will be closed so lets keep it nice. Someone else might have a valid point to make that would be helpful.

[Don H]

Hi...


I don't think I know anyone who hates Boy or girl Scouts.

In our area, there are many tax-free organizations...including the thousands of acres owned by the Scouts. We taxpayers have to make up for the taxes that these orginazations are not paying. That hurts...!!

Isn't the ATC and all the local trail clubs tax exempt too?

[Tinker]

Many people dislike some things.

Some people dislike many things.

A few people hate some things.

Most of those are blind to their hate.

Hatred is a cancer.

Unless it is removed it will eventually eat the bearer alive from the inside out.

The cure for hatred is not tolerance. It is love, found through understanding and forgiveness.

...........Bart Simpson.......... Just kidding :p.

[Papa D]

So what I'm hearing is:
1. Scout leaders should try to keep group size to 10 or less.
2. Don't use shelters or camp near them if you have a big group.
3. Practice LNT
4. Be considerate of others

I'll bring up 1 and 2.
3 and 4 should be standard procedure but a reminder might be in order.

All the nasty stuff is way over my pay grade so as I said before it won't be discussed. If it keeps getting nasty here I'm sure the thread will be closed so lets keep it nice. Someone else might have a valid point to make that would be helpful.

sounds like a good start - I think that the thread is turning toward civility

[Papa D]

Many people dislike some things.

Some people dislike many things.

A few people hate some things.

Most of those are blind to their hate.

Hatred is a cancer.

Unless it is removed it will eventually eat the bearer alive from the inside out.

The cure for hatred is not tolerance. It is love, found through understanding and forgiveness.

...........Bart Simpson.......... Just kidding :p.

Tinker, I think that everyone on WB will agree that we are glad you are back.

[Tinker]

Tinker, I think that everyone on WB will agree that we are glad you are back.

Thank you. I'm happy to be back. It took a new pc to get me back. Been back since August, maybe.

Getting along just means you don't always get what you want, when you want it, how you want it, at the best price, with a smile. :)

There are lots of stupid people in the world, no matter how smart I might think I am at any given time, it never escapes my conscience that I am one of "them". ;)

The older I get, and the more I know how much more there is to know, the harder it is to convince those younger than me that they have a lot to learn (as do I).

Lastly, paraphrased from the Bible, You can't teach a fool - period!

[royalusa]

So what I'm hearing is:
1. Scout leaders should try to keep group size to 10 or less.
2. Don't use shelters or camp near them if you have a big group.
3. Practice LNT
4. Be considerate of others

I'll bring up 1 and 2.
3 and 4 should be standard procedure but a reminder might be in order.


Good list Don. Group size is definitely an issue. The only 'issue' we see a lot with groups is the failure to set an itinerary appropriate for the 'weakest link' in the group. Saddest thing we see if kids out on their first backpacking trip and not having fun because the schedule was too aggressive, possibly rendering their first backpacking trip, their last backpacking trip ever.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Yet Lambert had no problem being dishonest the years leading up to his Eagle award and afterwards taking on an asst. scoutmaster role where he signed on the dotted line, professing agreement with BSA principles including religious.

1) In the years leading up Darrell becoming an Eagle Scout he was a school student and obviously much younger. He has stated that he did not come to a conclusion about whether or not he believed that a "God" existed until well into HS. The exact timing when he came to this realization is unclear, but it was at some point in HS.
2) An 8 member panel approved his Eagle Award even though they did not ask about his beliefs. Darrell, however, even though not asked, told them specifically prior to the award that he did not believe in "God" or the supernatural. It was approved / conferred anyway.
3) He admits "glossing over" (his words) the leadership application, on the belief that his atheism simply hadn't mattered in the past, including when he voluteered such information to the Eagle panel. He refused however, to lie when it was later suggested by BSA that he do so in order to make everything okay. I prefer to support and give praise to the one party in this incident that put truth ahead of expediency and conformity.

Like most atheists, Darrell probably struggled with the issue of religion and belief in the supernatural for a long time before coming to a realization about what he did and did not believe. Children come under tremendous indoctrination, influence, and pressure to conform - from society, peers, parents, etc. To imply that he should have known such things at age 8 or 9 or during the years he was in scouting is patently absurd.

[Tinker]

Good point, indeed, 4eb.

[Feral Bill]

. And some of this has to do with religious beliefs which no one has a right to debate. Everyone has a right to hold and debate religious beliefs. They are in no way above discussion. How do you thing the vast range of beliefs in this country came to be? Makes life interesting.

[jesse]

For TOMP, and PapaD.
Why don't y'all start an organization similar to BSA, only allow leaders to be gays, atheist, and hold whatever enlightened value of the day you want. Then we can have diversity. We can have BSA which holds to traditional values, and your group. Good luck with recruiting.

[rocketsocks]

no doubt - some scouts do some good stuff and there are good leaders - my apologies to the good ones but I still maintain that the culture of the organization is discriminatory, sexist, right-wing, and mainly meat-headed. It's about teaching boys to be tough and stupid and girls to be sorority girls - the "outdoors" is a platform that they mostly misunderstand or have abandoned,While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion,I do respect the fact that it is your opinion and glad you have one.

[rocketsocks]

Everyone has a right to hold and debate religious beliefs. They are in no way above discussion. How do you thing the vast range of beliefs in this country came to be? Makes life interesting.Agreed.............I don't want every one to think like me,that would be just plain boring and therefore retract my statement for you to reconsider your point of view.It was not mine to ask for.:)I also think It's Important that we can discuss and agree to disagree,without the lines of communication be closed.

[Blue Jay]

I am always very very happy to come across Boy Scouts. They always carry more food than they need. If you stay with them untill they get to their cars you get more food than you and eat AND carry, and that is saying a lot.

[Captain_Slo]

For TOMP, and PapaD.
Why don't y'all start an organization similar to BSA, only allow leaders to be gays, atheist, and hold whatever enlightened value of the day you want. Then we can have diversity. We can have BSA which holds to traditional values, and your group. Good luck with recruiting.

hasn't gone too bad for the Girl Scouts. They've always embraced diversity and had very very few problems...

[TOMP]

For TOMP, and PapaD.
Why don't y'all start an organization similar to BSA, only allow leaders to be gays, atheist, and hold whatever enlightened value of the day you want. Then we can have diversity. We can have BSA which holds to traditional values, and your group. Good luck with recruiting.

They already exist. Good luck with your "values" I guess tolerance isnt one of them.

[Lyle]

If anyone wants more info on why many of us dislike the National Scouting Organization (that was the OP's original question, after all), do some reading here:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html

(http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html)

[Papa D]

If anyone wants more info on why many of us dislike the National Scouting Organization (that was the OP's original question, after all), do some reading here:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html

(http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html)

Excellent reference for some folks!

[Papa D]

While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion,I do respect the fact that it is your opinion and glad you have one.

Thank you - I appreciate the comment.

[hikerboy57]

i hate their smiling little faces, their continuous optimism, their insistence on being prepared, and their constant offers of helpfulness.the other stuff i can do without.:rolleyes:why do we have to introduce these younger folks to the natural world anyway. wouldnt they be happier in front of a computer screen?keep these adults-in-training out of the woods and home where they can insulate themselves from challenges, problem solving and planning.

[Don H]

For TOMP, and PapaD.
Why don't y'all start an organization similar to BSA, only allow leaders to be gays, atheist, and hold whatever enlightened value of the day you want. Then we can have diversity. We can have BSA which holds to traditional values, and your group. Good luck with recruiting.
There is a group called "Scouting For All", they have a nice website.

[Papa D]

For TOMP, and PapaD.
Why don't y'all start an organization similar to BSA, only allow leaders to be gays, atheist, and hold whatever enlightened value of the day you want. Then we can have diversity. We can have BSA which holds to traditional values, and your group. Good luck with recruiting.

hmm - my enlightened little program fills up every summer, no problem - I have led hundreds of kids in my summer camp affiliate but, since you asked, here is the national organization closest to what you describe: it is non-discriminatory, non-sexist, promotes forest ethics, values and is secular. It's pretty amazing and I don't think the BSA can have as comprehensive disclaimer

www.outwardbound.org



Outward Bound is a non-profit, tax exempt educational organization and is approved as a 501c3 organization under the Internal Revenue Code. All contributions are tax-deductible. Outward Bound considers applicants on an equal opportunity basis without regard to an applicant's race, color, creed, sex, sexual orientation, age, disability or any other status protected by federal, state or local law. Outward Bound actively seeks to serve diverse students through recruiting, affiliations, dedicated scholarships and community programs (http://www.outwardbound.org)

[Wise Old Owl]

Boy Scouts of America marks 100 years 5:12 PM, Jul. 16, 2010



http://cmsimg.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=D9&Date=20100718&Category=LIVING&ArtNo=7170305&Ref=AR&MaxW=640&Border=0&Boy-Scouts-America-marks-100-years

James Clarke, 13, of Shreveport stands at attention with the Boy Scout salute. / Douglas Collier/The Times





What do Neil Armstrong, Hank Aaron, Ashton Kutcher and President Barack Obama have in common? As children, they all took an oath that led them down a path of discovery. This path included camping trips, tying knots, shooting arrows and helping the communities in which they lived. They all grew up proud to be Boy Scouts.
As the Boy Scouts of America commemorates its 100th anniversary, 36 Scouts and 25 adult volunteers from the area are preparing to attend the 2010 National Scout Jamboree in Fort A.P. Hill, Va., from July 26 to Aug. 4. The Norwela Council contingent, which departs Wednesday, will join 56,000 other Scouts from across the nation.
"This has been a two-year process to get the boys ready to go to Jamboree," said Jill Lucero, Bossier district executive. "We plan ahead."
Evan Richey, 15, of Troop 1514, is looking forward to attending, especially after hearing about the success of the National Jamboree held during the Boy Scouts' 75th anniversary.
"You just hear so much about it from the last major national Jamboree, the 75th anniversary, and now we're at the 100th anniversary," Richey said. "It's supposed to be 10 times better than that."
Richey has been in Boy Scouts for 10 years. He says being a Boy Scout has helped shape him into the person he is today.
"It's taught me character, and it's taught me to actually dig deep down into myself," he said.
In order for Scouts to attend the event, they have to be between the ages of 12 and 18 and at least a First Class Scout. They also have to be active in their unit for at least six months and participate in pre-Jamboree training.
Ethan Hay, 17, of Troop 1514, has been a Boy Scout since 1999 and also will be attending this year's Jamboree.
"I can't wait. I hear tons of great things about it," he said. "There are going to be tons of new exhibits there and I can't wait to go see them."
According to Lucero, for Scouts who take it seriously, Boy Scouts becomes more than just something to do. It becomes a way of life.


"It's the only program left that concentrates on values, good citizenship and duty to God," she said. "It teaches you teamwork. It teaches you sportsmanship, good citizenship and respect. You learn those things and it helps you uphold those values in everything that you do in your daily life."

So hard to hate stuff that folks do not understand....

[Blissful]

Next month I will be doing a presentation/slide show on the AT to about 300 adult Scout leaders. This is the second of several scheduled. I expect to talk with over 1,000 Scouts and adults in the next few months. If you have some valid concerns I can pass them on.

Wow this is great. Thanks. I've spoken to area leaders here as well, a few years ago though. It was a round table event. I really should do that again though...

[shelb]

. Boys should OF COURSE learn to cook - why should this be UNUSUAL? Girls should OF COURSE do EVERYTHING the guys do - am I supposed to be impressed - .......

My post was in response to the post regarding BSA stereotyping that boys should do "tough" things and girls should do "girlie" things.

Our unit is not at all unusual...at least where I am from... My post was not meant to "impress anyone." I was just pointing out that to claim BSA discriminates based on gender is not true. Unfortunately, some people are not aware that many units work with both boys and girls (as well as adult male and females) on life skills (such as cooking) and adventure stuff (such as backpacking). Now some may claim that the Cub Scouts are oriented toward elementary boys, but then again, so are the Girl Scouts brownies... as are the "Girls on the Run" or "Boys on Track" programs.

I do not deny the anti-gay policy (nor do I agree with it. My gay friends are welcome around my boys...funny thing is that both the 2 female couples and the one male couple we are close to wholeheartedly support my boys' involvement in BSA - although they disagree with the policy that excludes their participation)...I was just addressing the gender criticism.

[sailorman50]

I am an eagle scout and i love the BSA. they do great things for young children and teach them to become men. the make the love of the outdoors inherent in every kid no matter how long they stay in scouting. i only have one complaint about them. when going out on a camping trip my pack would probably weigh over 50 pounds, mind you that is just for 1 weekend!!! they pound into every scouts head to pack for every possible situation, and the adults usually only know what the book is telling them so they dont help. ultimately, my complaint is that they do not teach kids how to do lightweight backpacking.
planning my summer section hike of the AT has been stressful for my parents because im not bringing the whole kitchen sink.

[shelb]

So what I'm hearing is:
1. Scout leaders should try to keep group size to 10 or less.
2. Don't use shelters or camp near them if you have a big group.
3. Practice LNT
4. Be considerate of others

3 and 4 should be standard procedure but a reminder might be in order.



While you are totally correct that #3 and #4 should be standard procedure, reminders are always beneficial - especially for the kids! Our kids always are instructed to conduct a "sweep" of any site that we occupy (overnight or just for lunch). This involves everyone walking close together in as straight a line as possible, picking up anything that doesn't belong there. Our policy is to leave all areas better than we found it.

[Wise Old Owl]

I am an eagle scout and i love the BSA. they do great things for young children and teach them to become men. the make the love of the outdoors inherent in every kid no matter how long they stay in scouting. i only have one complaint about them. when going out on a camping trip my pack would probably weigh over 50 pounds, mind you that is just for 1 weekend!!! they pound into every scouts head to pack for every possible situation, and the adults usually only know what the book is telling them so they dont help. ultimately, my complaint is that they do not teach kids how to do lightweight backpacking.
planning my summer section hike of the AT has been stressful for my parents because im not bringing the whole kitchen sink.

Great post - uh UL is new so just do it introduce it a little at a time... the only hiccup is the alcohol stove. Good Luck

[Papa D]

I am an eagle scout and i love the BSA. they do great things for young children and teach them to become men. the make the love of the outdoors inherent in every kid no matter how long they stay in scouting. i only have one complaint about them. when going out on a camping trip my pack would probably weigh over 50 pounds, mind you that is just for 1 weekend!!! they pound into every scouts head to pack for every possible situation, and the adults usually only know what the book is telling them so they dont help. ultimately, my complaint is that they do not teach kids how to do lightweight backpacking.
planning my summer section hike of the AT has been stressful for my parents because im not bringing the whole kitchen sink.

They are very outdated mostly because it is an organization run by Dads who are not real backpackers (or climbers or canoeists, etc.) so what they know, they learned in say, the 1970s and what they learned then was from the 1950s - sure, there are exceptions and modern techniques get sifted in, but you are right. That's why if you want a kid to learn outdoor skills, you either find them proper mentors at a great summer camp that has real bona-fide outdoor people (like me ;)) to teach your kids, or you enroll them in Outward Bound, NOLS, etc. If you want little soldiers who grow up to be Dads that teach kids how to "be prepared for every possible situation" which really prepares them to be slow, unprepared, and ineffective in the woods, well, you know what to do.

[shelb]

If anyone wants more info on why many of us dislike the National Scouting Organization (that was the OP's original question, after all), do some reading here:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html

(http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html)
This website lists several things that are not true. One is that the "BSA...has actually told one denomination, the Unitarian Universalist Church it could not present its award because its manual included material that the BSA disagreed with on homosexuality and atheism, thereby denying the right of that denomination to teach its beliefs to its boys in Scouting."

Yes, iit is true that the Unitarian Universalist Church welcomes homosexuals, heterosexuals, Christians, deists, atheists, wiccans, and any other beliefs... However, BSA has a Religious Emblem of Faith Award that may be presented to youth of this church. (My son is currently working on it!)

[Papa D]

This website lists several things that are not true. One is that the "BSA...has actually told one denomination, the Unitarian Universalist Church it could not present its award because its manual included material that the BSA disagreed with on homosexuality and atheism, thereby denying the right of that denomination to teach its beliefs to its boys in Scouting."

Yes, iit is true that the Unitarian Universalist Church welcomes homosexuals, heterosexuals, Christians, deists, atheists, wiccans, and any other beliefs... However, BSA has a Religious Emblem of Faith Award that may be presented to youth of this church. (My son is currently working on it!)

This is sort of an end run skirt around the issue - congrats to your son for figuring this out and I hope he does well, but there is no denying that the BSA absolutely discriminates against homosexuals, and non religious people. They also operate in a culture of sexism in my opinion by not allowing girls and co-ed programs -- relegating them to a separate organization, the girl scouts - where they sell cookies (and do other stuff)

[shelb]

but there is no denying that the BSA absolutely discriminates against homosexuals, and non religious people. They also operate in a culture of sexism in my opinion by not allowing girls and co-ed programs -- relegating them to a separate organization, the girl scouts - where they sell cookies (and do other stuff)

You are correct that BSA does discriminate against homosexuals and people who claim to have no "higher power." I did not deny that. (I do not agree with that policy..)

However, they do allow girls and have co-ed programs. Currently, it is called "Venturing." Our Venturing Crew has 8 registered girls between the ages of 14-17 and 7 registered boys between the ages of 14-18. We are separate from a "Troop." Our activities and leadership is "co-ed." We do separate our sleeping facilities, however...lol, as required by BSA.

My post you responded to was regarding the website. Reviewing the website, I noticed that while it does have list several things that are true, it has several inaccuracies..

I might add that while the BSA has problems (with leadership/policy), so does our nation. Yet, that doesn't make me want to expatriate. Rather, I will continue to advocate for change with both. (As I do with myself, personally...)

[fiddlehead]

Didn't read the 6 pages of posts but, just wanted to say I think the Boy Scouts is fine.
Don't know the latest rules. But, I grew up learning most of my outdoor skills in the boy scouts.
Building fires, swimming, cooking (over fires), first aid, hiking (packing a pack, sleeping gear, shelters, etc.).

What's not to like?
Ok they have religion in their creed. Big deal, you don't have to like the whole package, just what's important to YOU!

Now, I believe they have too many rules. I once showed my hiking video to my old troop. When there was a short clip of me drinking water from a stream, the leaders jumped up and said "Don't ever do that!" Where do you think I first drank water from a stream???

Anyway, that's the reason I could never be a leader. I can't follow rules so well.

But really! If you want to learn backpacking (outdoor wilderness) skills, the boy scouts is the place to do it. (at least it was)

Mmmmm, I remember contests to see who could start a fire with 2 matches and boil water the fastest. We had a team, some would work on tinder and kindling (it was in the rain one time), others on stacking the teepee type fire, others getting the water ready to boil and building a tripod to hold up the pot. All good stuff!

Then I attempted my first thru-hike and my stove blew up on day 12 or something. Built fires the rest of the way and used all those boy scout skills.

Anyway, these are great memories and I still try to teach my son this stuff today.

Here in Thailand they have boy scouts but they only seem to march to the convenience store. ( I always get the feeling they are training them for the army)

[Papa D]

You are correct that BSA does discriminate against homosexuals and people who claim to have no "higher power." I did not deny that. (I do not agree with that policy..)

However, they do allow girls and have co-ed programs. Currently, it is called "Venturing." Our Venturing Crew has 8 registered girls between the ages of 14-17 and 7 registered boys between the ages of 14-18. We are separate from a "Troop." Our activities and leadership is "co-ed." We do separate our sleeping facilities, however...lol, as required by BSA.

My post you responded to was regarding the website. Reviewing the website, I noticed that while it does have list several things that are true, it has several inaccuracies..

I might add that while the BSA has problems (with leadership/policy), so does our nation. Yet, that doesn't make me want to expatriate. Rather, I will continue to advocate for change with both. (As I do with myself, personally...)

ok thanks - I'm familiar with the Venturing groups but I don't understand why they don't just open the whole thing up and make it co-ed rather than create this little sub-group - life IS co-ed - the BSA sort of reminds me of the Citadel in SC and their refusal to accept women (until Shannon Faulkner). They have to be dragged kicking and screaming into reality. I do appreciate your thoughtful post though.

[Don H]

They are very outdated mostly because it is an organization run by Dads who are not real backpackers (or climbers or canoeists, etc.) so what they know, they learned in say, the 1970s and what they learned then was from the 1950s.

Most of the dads in my troop learned how to backpack in the Army!

[Camping Dave]

They also operate in a culture of sexism in my opinion by not allowing girls and co-ed programs

My my, you do have an active imagination! Are you just making this stuff up? Oh wait, yeah, you are.

[Don H]

They have girls in Cub Scouts, read about it here:
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2012/01/16/hispanic-cub-scout-pack-comes-columbia/

[shelb]

My my, you do have an active imagination! Are you just making this stuff up? Oh wait, yeah, you are.

Until a few years ago, I didn't know that the BSA allowed girls, either. I may have said the same thing, especially since back in the '70's I was a girl scout who longed to be involved in adventure - rather than selling cookies and sewing dolls. Now I know about the co-ed program, but many do not.

I think it is important to try to help others understand what is going on...rather than poke at them. (...but, I will admit to "poking" at them when I realize they do understand, but are being plain mean...)

[Summit]

The Supreme Court has affirmed that, as a private, expressive association, the BSA can set its own membership standards under the Constitutional right to freedom of association. So why do people sympathetic to the gay rights movement feel that all peoples and organizations MUST be acceptive to their standards, and not allowed freedom of association with people of like minds? People of differing morals and values should be free to disassociate from one another.
It's like if a group of people joined WB and after a while said, "hey, all you people talk about is hiking. We demand change around here. We want forums created so we can speak to restaurant ownership, best cruises, horticulture, plumbing, cheer leading, etc. Would WB not have the right to tell them that our focus is on hiking and they are free to discuss those subjects elsewhere? Must WB accommodate them simply because they demand that they be accommodated?

[shelb]

They have girls in Cub Scouts, read about it here:
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2012/01/16/hispanic-cub-scout-pack-comes-columbia/

Thank you for educating me! I didn't know... Hmm... Now that I do, you can bet the program in my area will be a-changing!

[JAK]

Get rid of the Supreme Court. White Blaze Rules. :-)

[TOMP]

The Supreme Court has affirmed that, as a private, expressive association, the BSA can set its own membership standards under the Constitutional right to freedom of association. So why do people sympathetic to the gay rights movement feel that all peoples and organizations MUST be acceptive to their standards, and not allowed freedom of association with people of like minds? People of differing morals and values should be free to disassociate from one another.
It's like if a group of people joined WB and after a while said, "hey, all you people talk about is hiking. We demand change around here. We want forums created so we can speak to restaurant ownership, best cruises, horticulture, plumbing, cheer leading, etc. Would WB not have the right to tell them that our focus is on hiking and they are free to discuss those subjects elsewhere? Must WB accommodate them simply because they demand that they be accommodated?

If WB said no gays allowed it would be an equal anology. But what you have wrote is bs.

[Summit]

If WB said no gays allowed it would be an equal anology. But what you have wrote is bs.You are certainly entitled to your own biased opinion, which I will not label as "bs."

[Feral Bill]

Get rid of the Supreme Court. White Blaze Rules. :-) Enjoying this up there? Eh?

[Summit]

If WB said no gays allowed it would be an equal anology. But what you have wrote is bs.So you have a problem with freedom of association? Military veterans must allow contentious objectors who've never served in the armed forces into their organizations? The RPA must accept people who have never donned a football uniform into their midst? Your comment is totally without merit.

[Summit]

I am always very very happy to come across Boy Scouts. They always carry more food than they need. If you stay with them untill they get to their cars you get more food than you and eat AND carry, and that is saying a lot.I agree and like this! :)

[Summit]

there is no denying that the BSA absolutely discriminates against homosexuals, and non religious people.So are you saying that people who do not agree with you regarding sexual orientation and faith have no right to form inclusive organizations? That's just blatantly sick-minded!

[TOMP]

So you have a problem with freedom of association? Military veterans must allow contentious objectors who've never served in the armed forces into their organizations? The RPA must accept people who have never donned a football uniform into their midst? Your comment is totally without merit.

I want to walk away and not fuel to fire as I previously stated but I just cant let you have the last word. Maybe I can appeal to your less enraged side. Your a man who has a scripture quote in your signature but defends biotry. Why? Why is it ok to discriminate against which you dont agree? Your analogies dont make much sense. You really cant see that this is a civil rights issue and not non-football player wanting to be reconized by the rpa? I will not continue this debate as it seems it is fruitless. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[Summit]

I want to walk away and not fuel to fire as I previously stated but I just cant let you have the last word. Maybe I can appeal to your less enraged side. Your a man who has a scripture quote in your signature but defends biotry. Why? Why is it ok to discriminate against which you dont agree? Your analogies dont make much sense. You really cant see that this is a civil rights issue and not non-football player wanting to be reconized by the rpa? I will not continue this debate as it seems it is fruitless. Good luck in your future endeavors.What a silly, whinny statement. I am not discriminating against anyone. The right for like-minded people to form inclusive organizations based on the rules of membership they set is my argument. And you would argue against that? Please tell me how you come up with "biotry" out of that? The BSA clearly states their ethics and values and if someone does not agree they are free to seek a similar experience that the BSA provides elsewhere. What right does anyone have to try to breach an organization's rules, ethics, beliefs and say "you have to allow me in and you have to change your moral values?" BTW, I'm not in a rage at all . . . call it passion! ;)

[Lyle]

What a silly, whinny statement. I am not discriminating against anyone. The right for like-minded people to form inclusive organizations based on the rules of membership they set is my argument. And you would argue against that? Please tell me how you come up with "biotry" out of that? The BSA clearly states their ethics and values and if someone does not agree they are free to seek a similar experience that the BSA provides elsewhere. What right does anyone have to try to breach an organization's rules, ethics, beliefs and say "you have to allow me in and you have to change your moral values?" BTW, I'm not in a rage at all . . . call it passion! ;)

Country Clubs, Private Schools and the State of Alabama used to use the same arguments.

[Summit]

Country Clubs, Private Schools and the State of Alabama used to use the same arguments.Cute, and your point is . . .

[Lyle]

Obvious, bigotry.

Nite all.

[TOMP]

What a silly, whinny statement. I am not discriminating against anyone. The right for like-minded people to form inclusive organizations based on the rules of membership they set is my argument. And you would argue against that? Please tell me how you come up with "biotry" out of that? The BSA clearly states their ethics and values and if someone does not agree they are free to seek a similar experience that the BSA provides elsewhere. What right does anyone have to try to breach an organization's rules, ethics, beliefs and say "you have to allow me in and you have to change your moral values?" BTW, I'm not in a rage at all . . . call it passion! ;)

Online definition of biotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. How could I come up with this? I kind of wondered how one could defend this argument and I was right, they just have to belief that it is ok to do what they are doing. I will just have to just disagree. BTW, BSA is discriminating but you call it passion.

[TOMP]

Cute, and your point is . . .

OMG tell me you agree with separate but equal. LOL

[Amanita]

Country Clubs, Private Schools and the State of Alabama used to use the same arguments.

Amen to that.

[Summit]

Obvious, bigotry.

Nite all.Oh, so bigotry = country clubs, Private Schools and the State of Alabama. Yeah, obvious. :rolleyes:
But what you really said is bigotry = organization formed to practice and uphold their rules and values who rejects attempts by outsiders to subvert their efforts. :eek:

[Alligator]

The Supreme Court has affirmed that, as a private, expressive association, the BSA can set its own membership standards under the Constitutional right to freedom of association. So why do people sympathetic to the gay rights movement feel that all peoples and organizations MUST be acceptive to their standards, and not allowed freedom of association with people of like minds? People of differing morals and values should be free to disassociate from one another.
It's like if a group of people joined WB and after a while said, "hey, all you people talk about is hiking. We demand change around here. We want forums created so we can speak to restaurant ownership, best cruises, horticulture, plumbing, cheer leading, etc. Would WB not have the right to tell them that our focus is on hiking and they are free to discuss those subjects elsewhere? Must WB accommodate them simply because they demand that they be accommodated?WB already has a forum for Non-AT topics because it was requested. It was not in response to a demand. WB is open to new members.

Please don't drag WB into your argument, particularly as you have already mischaracterized how the website would operate. Thank you.

[Summit]

Online definition of biotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. How could I come up with this? I kind of wondered how one could defend this argument and I was right, they just have to belief that it is ok to do what they are doing. I will just have to just disagree. BTW, BSA is discriminating but you call it passion.Sorry but "biotry" doesn't seem to be a word. ;)

I cannot believe there is so much objection to the idea that people of a certain persuasion, pursuit, or experience do not have the right to form and participate in an exclusive organization. Should the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) have to admit a non-veteran? Should the Baseball Hall of Fame be pressured into accepting a star soccer player? The BSA is not discriminating. They are upholding the guidelines for membership based on the criteria they have set for what they stand for.

[TOMP]

Sorry but "biotry" doesn't seem to be a word. ;)

I cannot believe there is so much objection to the idea that people of a certain persuasion, pursuit, or experience do not have the right to form and participate in an exclusive organization. Should the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) have to admit a non-veteran? Should the Baseball Hall of Fame be pressured into accepting a star soccer player? The BSA is not discriminating. They are upholding the guidelines for membership based on the criteria they have set for what they stand for.

If you think that not allowing a soccer player in to the baseball hall of fame is the same as not allowing a black person the right to go to school with a white person or a gay person the right to scout in BSA then there is nothing I can post that will change that. WWJD??

[wwbriggs]

I have two sons in scouting and I would like to personally thank all of you who sacrifice your time and pass along your skills to boys like mine throughout the world. Our world and country is a better place thanks to all of your efforts. God Bless America and all the volunteers and youth that make up BSA. I don't advocate offending anyone or creating biased in anyone. I simply recognize the benefits of providing our youth structure and mentoring to become leaders who can stand on their own two feet and make decisions and life choices on their own.

[TOMP]

Summit brings up an interesting point. Do private groups have the right (in America) to discriminate or as he puts it, allow like minded indivduals to come up with a set of rules that exclude others from thier group? And yes they do, but is this ok? Is this something you want for yourself or your children, if so then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

[jesse]

When it comes to who leads/teaches my kids; I discriminate.

[Bronk]

The problem with boy scouts is as stated many times above: the scout leaders. See the thing is there are a lot of idiots in the world and some of them will decide to be scout leaders even though they have no idea what they are doing. So what we end up with is the weekend car camper who leaves trash all over the place multiplied by however many scouts the "leader" has in his troop.

[Bronk]

Summit brings up an interesting point. Do private groups have the right (in America) to discriminate or as he puts it, allow like minded indivduals to come up with a set of rules that exclude others from thier group? And yes they do, but is this ok? Is this something you want for yourself or your children, if so then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

I don't think in a free society that anything good can come from forcing people to associate with others that they do not want to associate with. When it comes to my property, my money, my time and any organization that I want to set up, if I don't like you because you're blond or have green eyes or you believe in the tooth fairy or any other reason it is my right to exclude you.

Public policy is a much different matter, but when it comes to private organizations they should be free to operate as they see fit without interference from the government or anyone else. When will this poltiical correctness be carried too far? Will we force Christians to allow imams to offer muslim prayers in their churches?

[MuddyWaters]

The reason that certain people demand blanket acceptance from others, is that they are missing it from within within themselves.

There is no problem with scouts. It is a very successful and large worldwide organization which produces outstanding young people.

The problem is with the haters, and that is their problem. When they are not the majority, they cannot stand it, as usual.

[hikerboy57]

I don't think in a free society that anything good can come from forcing people to associate with others that they do not want to associate with. When it comes to my property, my money, my time and any organization that I want to set up, if I don't like you because you're blond or have green eyes or you believe in the tooth fairy or any other reason it is my right to exclude you.

Public policy is a much different matter, but when it comes to private organizations they should be free to operate as they see fit without interference from the government or anyone else. When will this poltiical correctness be carried too far? Will we force Christians to allow imams to offer muslim prayers in their churches?I seriuosly doubt that, but interfaith services are not such a bad idea. same god.its nice sometimes to find common ground, instead of finding ways to divide.

[Papa D]

Summit brings up an interesting point. Do private groups have the right (in America) to discriminate or as he puts it, allow like minded indivduals to come up with a set of rules that exclude others from thier group? And yes they do, but is this ok? Is this something you want for yourself or your children, if so then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

The thread is "why people hate the scouts so much" - Tomp is essentially correct, they are disliked because the permeating culture is that of older men, mostly Dads passing on values that perpetuate what a lot of us think are sexist, homophobic, and (in the backpacking realm) a different more military style that is more about conquering the wild and less about harmony. One earlier poster said that he learned to backpack in the military. A lot of us think that that style is out of place on the AT. The thread is about "why" this is why. Scouts are (rightly or wrongly) seen by the backpacking community as un-prepared kids led by old military / coach type Dads who don't really know what they are doing. Their website refers to "training" - I train a dog, I educate kids. It's these subtleties that bother me. Their badges and uniforms make them like little soldiers - the military obviously has a place but it doesn't fit into the backpacking realm (in my view). They are seen as big loud out of control groups. Now, I personally don't think that they should be allowed by the government to have an official policy against homosexuals and against non religious people and because this IS their policy I personally avoid them and would greatly favor an all-encluseive organization like Outward Bound.

Summit is of course correct that he and his friends are free to associate with whomever he chooses to - this is the culture of country clubs, churches, Elks Lodges, etc. but that doesn't mean that the backpacking community will ever embrace 19th and 20th century opinionated stances of non-enclusion and discrimination because, "that's the way we've always done it."

I live in the south (in a small diverse college town) but am surrounded by these attitudes often. It's interesting to me how many pro-Scout posters are slightly more experienced (in age) guys from the South so I do understand Summit and Jesse's loyalties and how they passionately feel that these long-thought things might be slipping away and they must "hold-on" but I think that if the scouts are to survive long-term that a re-inventing might be in order and that perhaps patterning their practices on something other than organized religion and the military might be a start. Until then, I'm going to support other organizations but I did go to the BSA website and looked up the scout motto and one of the tenets is to respect other's opinions so, I'm going to try to do that cautiously (with the exception of homo-phobia and religious abstention intolerance) which I'm not accepting. Back to the thread title though, these are the reasons why backpackers are leery of the scouts -- I don't think backpackers "hate" the scouts - I don't, I certainly don't hate the kids - I just don't like the framework of policies and the culture they are being taught, but I give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I hope that this is of polite discourse, and appropriate, non hateful, and all inclusionary.

[Summit]

When it comes to who leads/teaches my kids; I discriminate.Very well said in such few, eloquent words. :)

[Summit]

I just don't like the framework of policies and the culture they are being taught, but I give everyone the benefit of the doubt.And that's why in a truly free, democratic society (and the US isn't!), you should have the right to associate with like-minded people, and people who do agree with the BSA's rules and principles should be able to associate as a group, exclusive of those who differ from them. Apparently the Supreme Court agrees! Thankfully!

Hopefully, we can return this thread to what the OP really was aiming at. I admit that it doesn't make my day when a medium or large group of boy scouts come strolling into the campsite I'm at late in the day. As has been stated, it's not that kids are inherently bad. It's that many scout leaders do not discipline them as they should. I did experience one time where the scout group was making all manner of noise as I was bedding down after dark, and I thought, "oh boy, this is going to be a lousy night's sleep. All of a sudden, like a light switch, complete silence . . . for the rest of the night! Now that's a leader making a difference in some kid's lives!

[4eyedbuzzard]

I don't think in a free society that anything good can come from forcing people to associate with others that they do not want to associate with. When it comes to my property, my money, my time and any organization that I want to set up, if I don't like you because you're blond or have green eyes or you believe in the tooth fairy or any other reason it is my right to exclude you.

Public policy is a much different matter, but when it comes to private organizations they should be free to operate as they see fit without interference from the government or anyone else. When will this poltiical correctness be carried too far? Will we force Christians to allow imams to offer muslim prayers in their churches?

Was racial integration just political correctness? Had the term existed at the time, it would likely have been labelled as such. Many years ago, BSA troop were racially segregated. The troops followed the cultural customs and "morality" of the local area they were in. Officially, this policy lasted into the early 1950's, and in some areas even the 1970's. I would venture to guess however that defacto segregation still exists due to socio-economic realities. And to be sure, when racial integration happened nationally as a policy, there were those both in and out of BSA who did not like this change as they saw it as moving away from "long held values" - the same argument some offer here in defense of BSA's current practices. The BSA does change, but historically, they don't exactly display leadership.

BSA'a stance is that a GLBT person cannot be a member, even if they profess a religious belief, because they are not "morally straight". Yet as we experience life, we observe that moral/ethical behavior is largely an individual matter, not one of religion or sexuality. There seems to be no lack of "immorality" to be found in those who are, or profess to be, religious and straight. One only need read the news to be reminded of this every day.

Another big problems is that BSA wishes to be a private organization - but still enjoy the benefits of a public non-profit. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue with them running a private, exclusive organization. They have every right. But when they gain public funding, special treatment, or access paid for with ALL taxpayer's dollars, then there is a problem. They have lost access in many places as a result, but still receive preferential treatment in others, especially tax status. Why should the tax dollars of atheists, agnostics, GLBT persons, or any person / entity not of those categories who simply finds BSA's policies objectionable, have their tax dollars used by an organization that discriminates against protected classes based on legal criteria in Title VII? Is BSA ultimately purely a religious organization or religious educational one? A sexual-orientation organization? Or perhaps they have become an organization where politics is the driving force? You can't be both an exclusive club and a public non-profit. And that is ultimately a battle BSA will lose in the future unless they change their policies. It may not happen in this decade, but the attitudes of the current young generation and those to come are not those of the holdovers currently running BSA at the national level.

I think at the root level BSA is a wonderful organization. Volunteer leaders from the local community taking kids out hiking, doing community service, learning about the broad area of subjects troops can educate kids in, building character and leadership - is a wonderful program. How could it not be? But when the overlords get involved with their politics on religion and sexuality, they drag the organization down to the level of partisan campaign politics.

[Papa D]

I'm not sure what kinda Freezer Bag Meal you had this morning but it should be on every hikers menu :rolleyes:... 10K(Much respected on here) posted about reader comprehension before people reply... Thanks for that Papa D... And Summitt, too... If anyone were to try and make this some other site than about hiking, like Summitt said,I'm sure the likes of "Alligator" would censor them... Whats the Diff??? BSA/WB... 1000's upon 1000's of IQ, oops, posts doesn't mean ur smarter... Prob just means ur a middle age man and you live in ur mums basement... Sarcasm the Elf are you gettin' this :D...

I went for a 5 mile run in the rain and then had Oatmeal with peanut butter with my daughter - our favorite.

[Papa D]

Was racial integration just political correctness? Had the term existed at the time, it would likely have been labelled as such. Many years ago, BSA troop were racially segregated. The troops followed the cultural customs and "morality" of the local area they were in. Officially, this policy lasted into the early 1950's, and in some areas even the 1970's. I would venture to guess however that defacto segregation still exists due to socio-economic realities. And to be sure, when racial integration happened nationally as a policy, there were those both in and out of BSA who did not like this change as they saw it as moving away from "long held values" - the same argument some offer here in defense of BSA's current practices. The BSA does change, but historically, they don't exactly display leadership.

BSA'a stance is that a GLBT person cannot be a member, even if they profess a religious belief, because they are not "morally straight". Yet as we experience life, we observe that moral/ethical behavior is largely an individual matter, not one of religion or sexuality. There seems to be no lack of "immorality" to be found in those who are, or profess to be, religious and straight. One only need read the news to be reminded of this every day.

Another big problems is that BSA wishes to be a private organization - but still enjoy the benefits of a public non-profit. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue with them running a private, exclusive organization. They have every right. But when they gain public funding, special treatment, or access paid for with ALL taxpayer's dollars, then there is a problem. They have lost access in many places as a result, but still receive preferential treatment in others, especially tax status. Why should the tax dollars of atheists, agnostics, GLBT persons, or any person / entity not of those categories who simply finds BSA's policies objectionable, have their tax dollars used by an organization that discriminates against protected classes based on legal criteria in Title VII? Is BSA ultimately purely a religious organization or religious educational one? A sexual-orientation organization? Or perhaps they have become an organization where politics is the driving force? You can't be both an exclusive club and a public non-profit. And that is ultimately a battle BSA will lose in the future unless they change their policies. It may not happen in this decade, but the attitudes of the current young generation and those to come are not those of the holdovers currently running BSA at the national level.

I think at the root level BSA is a wonderful organization. Volunteer leaders from the local community taking kids out hiking, doing community service, learning about the broad area of subjects troops can educate kids in, building character and leadership - is a wonderful program. How could it not be? But when the overlords get involved with their politics on religion and sexuality, they drag the organization down to the level of partisan campaign politics.

good stuff here 4eB!

[Wise Old Owl]

Yea Fiddlehead dont ever drink from a stream in Thialand! Lets Amoebiasis, Crytosporidioses, Cyclosporiasis, Giardiasis, Microsporidosis, Shistosomiasis, and well you get the idea - be afaid be very afraid...OUCH water borne_disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-borne_disease). scared to death,,,,,Yea they are traing them for the army.

[Painted Turtle]

I have over 21 years in Scouting and it has been my experience on and off the trail, IT is the leaders that are the problem. Worst experience was in ME with Girl Scouts from Canada. The leaders had no control / did not care. They were asked to leave the trail by Officals.

[Lyle]

Was racial integration just political correctness? Had the term existed at the time, it would likely have been labelled as such. ...

Hear, Hear!

Excellent Post.

[Toli]

I went for a 5 mile run in the rain and then had Oatmeal with peanut butter with my daughter - our favorite.

Ummm... Why??? Were the police chasing you and ur daughter :rolleyes:... I had PB+:banana Enertia Oatmeal this morning :D...

[Papa D]

Ummm... Why??? Were the police chasing you and ur daughter :rolleyes:... I had PB+:banana Enertia Oatmeal this morning :D...

I think that middle age was chasing me - every couple of mornings I try to outrun it - so far, I've left it one or two shelters behind when on the trail.

[Wise Old Owl]

The problem with boy scouts is as stated many times above: the scout leaders. See the thing is there are a lot of idiots in the world and some of them will decide to be scout leaders even though they have no idea what they are doing. So what we end up with is the weekend car camper who leaves trash all over the place multiplied by however many scouts the "leader" has in his troop.

Bronk your statement is way off - I doubt you are a scout. Are you aware the leaders go to school and educational programs to teach them to be better leaders.... And your final thought is JAFO.

[Papa D]

Your Biased opinion is drawn from the drive by media, there are lots of gay men in cubs, and Boy Scouts... and some are Eagle Scouts.... But the message is about being morally straight in a Judea Christian private organization - not straight. Pedophiles, Wacko's, and Atheist boys, and some Muslim boys are not accepted in the American Boy Scouts.

I'm not sure that I understand this WOO - I think that this BSA thread is getting sort of played out. We're getting ready to jump the shark now. Here is a quote that may or may not be applicable but it's one that I like:

I'm interested in the fact that the less secure a man is, the more likely he is to have extreme prejudice.
Clint Eastwood

[WingedMonkey]

some Muslim boys are not accepted in the American Boy Scouts.

That is a false statement and not based on FACT.

[MuddyWaters]

When we first began having the "diversity is good" brainwashing shoved down our throats about 15 yrs ago at work, I asked the question" If its so good, why do you want to wipe it out?" Yes, this is government policy dictated brainwashing. Your goverment wants to control every part of your life, including what you are allowed to believe, and what you are allowed to teach your kids. I am not OK with that.

Embracing diversity, will paradoxically, destroy it.

It is OK to associate with like minded people and exclude those different. Heaven help us when we are not allowed to do so.

Funny that a few like to rail on the boy scouts. Others out there rail on the drinking, dope smoking hikers that leave trash in fire rings and feces /tp around shelters. Who would you rather share the trail with?

[OutdoorsMan]

A question to those who don't like the Boy Scouts. Does this mean you boycott the trails that they help build (As an example, some troops helped build parts of the PCT.)? I mean, you don't want to look like you support them or anything, right? :p

Great point Miner!!

[Wise Old Owl]

WingedMonkey before that goes viral - I read that in a news incident this morning ( research) - now I can't find it and I thought it was odd because Boy Scouts were in Muslim Countries overseas... So yes I am mistaken.

Papa D. Although there do not appear too be Gay men in my troop. I had no problem discovering that they are there at Summer Camp. I have since discovered some of my past freinds in scouting are gay and I have no problem with it.

[mister krabs]

Muslim boys are not accepted in the American Boy Scouts.

Wait... Wut?
14965

[MuddyWaters]

All the boyscouts require is spirituality and the acknowledgement of a supreme god. The scouts are located all over the world, in many countries, many different religions. Scout prayers are non-denominational.

[TD55]

"Why do so many here hate Boy Scouts?" I don't know, but you will have a hard time finding haters on the AT. One of the coolest things about the AT are the folks who hike it. Pretty pleasent group. Some might not like running into large groups of student, church or other groups that ignore rules (written or unwritten), but hate, no. Most of us just move on down the trail with a smile.

[Don H]

The thread is "why people hate the scouts so much"

Actually the question I posed was "why do so many here hate scouts so much?" In other words why do so many in the hiking community dislike scouts. I then clarified my question by saying that I wanted to know what scouts are doing in relation to the AT that causes so many to dislike scouts.

It seems as though BSA National policies, which the scouts and adults you meet on the trail have nothing to do with, is the main problem. Those that disagree with these policies then take their feeling of disdain out on a bunch of kids and volunteers. In over 3,000 miles of hiking the AT and 25 years of Scouting I have never seen some of the bad things others say they have. Not saying they didn't happen but if they did it is a rare occurrence. I'm willing to stand in front of a room full of Scouts and leaders and discuss what they need to change to be seen in a better light in the hiking community. I wonder how many of you would be willing to stand next to me and tell them they are bigots, meat heads, haters, sexists, homophobic or any of the multitude of other nasty words that have been used.
From reading all the discussion here it seems that other than reinforcing policies regarding Leave No Trace there is not much else that needs to be said to my groups.

[LeeAllure]

Maybe if the thread title had been "What do you like about the Boy Scouts, and what do you think they could be doing better?", this discussion would have taken a more positive tone from the beginning.

[TD55]

Actually the question I posed was "why do so many here hate scouts so much?" In other words why do so many in the hiking community dislike scouts. I then clarified my question by saying that I wanted to know what scouts are doing in relation to the AT that causes so many to dislike scouts.

From reading all the discussion here it seems that other than reinforcing policies regarding Leave No Trace there is not much else that needs to be said to my groups.

You are correct. Perhaps limit size of group and be good ambassadors.

[Wise Old Owl]

To answer your post Don H because the hiking comunity is upset with overrun shelters, if there are thirty boys occuping a shelter in NY, the average person assumes its BS and not a gang. We have two posts here in this thread that we are Adult Leaders and Meat heads, and stupid... uneducated - trainees.

Its a shame all the hard work that a few do, for so many, goes so south on the casual observer


What? you all went to lunch I can tell!:D

[Lone Wolf]

i've seen big groups of thru-hikers at shelter/camping areas that were worse than the rare misbehaved scouts. scouts, church groups, college groups etc. are here to stay. deal with it and quit whinin'. don't stay at shelters. y'all are over-analyzin this crap

[Papa D]

All the boyscouts require is spirituality and the acknowledgement of a supreme god. The scouts are located all over the world, in many countries, many different religions. Scout prayers are non-denominational.

What a strange thing to be forced to acknowledge - some people would suggest that this is exactly like acknowledging the Tooth Fairy or the Great Ju-Ju up on the Mountain, the Easter Bunny, Zeus, Poseidon, etc. - would these "supreme beings be "ok?" - or would it have to be some Judeo-Christian type "God" of the bronze aged stories - - religion can be and is often dangerous "requirements" like these are inappropriate in my opinion

[TD55]

What a strange thing to be forced to acknowledge - some people would suggest that this is exactly like acknowledging the Tooth Fairy or the Great Ju-Ju up on the Mountain, the Easter Bunny, Zeus, Poseidon, etc. - would these "supreme beings be "ok?" - or would it have to be some Judeo-Christian type "God" of the bronze aged stories - - religion can be and is often dangerous "requirements" like these are inappropriate in my opinion
Probably the stupidest post in a thread with an abundence of stupid post.

[Papa D]

Probably the stupidest post in a thread with an abundence of stupid post.

Requiring a kid to acknowledge something that makes absolutely no sense to them and is scientifically absurd is what is stupid sir - people should be able to believe and have faith in whatever they want to - requiring this is the issue.

[mister krabs]

Good on WOO for correcting himself. It takes a real man to do that.

[Papa D]

Good on WOO for correcting himself. It takes a real man to do that.

Yep - good WOO

[Papa D]

i've seen big groups of thru-hikers at shelter/camping areas that were worse than the rare misbehaved scouts. scouts, church groups, college groups etc. are here to stay. deal with it and quit whinin'. don't stay at shelters. y'all are over-analyzin this crap

I agree L.W. - I've been tired of this thread - I just keep going back for the reason that it is pouring rain at my house and I've already been running once today - I'm stuck in the shelter so to speak

[mister krabs]

Requiring a kid to acknowledge something that makes absolutely no sense to them and is scientifically absurd is what is stupid sir - people should be able to believe and have faith in whatever they want to - requiring this is the issue.

Only in the sense that BSA gets special consideration from local governments in use of facilities. I don't think they should, and I'm a BSA supporter.

Other than that, there's the whole issue of freedom of association being an integral part of freedom of speech.

Why do you hate the Constitution? -- kidding of course, but it makes the point.

[4eyedbuzzard]

... brainwashing shoved down our throats . . . goverment wants to control every part of your life, including what you are allowed to believe, and what you are allowed to teach your kids. I am not OK with that. as opposed to religion (especially relating to religious dogma) , which does exactly what again?


Embracing diversity, will paradoxically, destroy it.Not exactly. Just because we may associate more with those who believe/behave differently, does not necessarily change those differences in belief or behavior. Perhaps, though we can associate more to work together on common goals, such as even preserving and protecting diversity. A famous example of embracing and protecting diversity, while associating together, is extremely evident in the 1st amendment, which protects all religions and none, by not favoring any religion while not impeding the exercize. We certainly have a lot of religious diversity in the US. It seems to have worked.


It is OK to associate with like minded people and exclude those different. Heaven help us when we are not allowed to do so.Sure - but not on tax dollars in a pluralistic society. But beyond that, it seems to me that the mission (or what should be) of building character in boys and young men (who likely have yet to come to any adult level realization of their spirituality or sexuality) and raising responsible citizens has been lost in the politics of religion and civil rights.


Funny that a few like to rail on the boy scouts. Others out there rail on the drinking, dope smoking hikers that leave trash in fire rings and feces /tp around shelters. Who would you rather share the trail with?Pretty absurd analogy

[JansportD2]

I am an elder in a church that has sponsored a troop for 100 years - one of the first troops. Our church has a policy that prohibits discrimination by race, gender, religion (or lack thereof), or sexual orientation by any group who wants to use our buildings. So far no atheists (as far as I know) have asked to join the church, but they'd be welcome with open arms (WWJD?). This has put our troop in a delicate situation. If the BSA National Council finds out that they have agreed to our policy they can (and will) pull their charter. This happened to the Cradle of Liberty Council (Philadelphia) a few years ago. They tried to conform the Council's policy to city anti-discrimination ordinances so that they could continue to use city-owned property rent-free. The National Council came down hard on them and threatened the council's charter.

I am also an adult leader of the troop. I am the person they call to lead backpacking trips and winter camping trips. We limit backpacking groups to 10 or fewer. We camp near shelters when necessary (in Maryland and PA State game lands you have to). We do not sleep in the shelters. We teach LNT and demand compliance. Taps is at 9:30; lights-out at 10:00 - the scouts are almost always asleep by then anyway.

That said, I have run into scouts on the trail who had lousy leaders and were not very good neighbors. I do not hesitate to educate a scout when he or she is not doing the right thing, whether or not the scout in in our troop. I encourage you to do the same - if their leaders will not teach them respect for the trail who will? Hopefully it will embarrass the "leaders" to, you know, lead.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Actually the question I posed was "why do so many here hate scouts so much?" In other words why do so many in the hiking community dislike scouts. I then clarified my question by saying that I wanted to know what scouts are doing in relation to the AT that causes so many to dislike scouts.

It seems as though BSA National policies, which the scouts and adults you meet on the trail have nothing to do with, is the main problem. Those that disagree with these policies then take their feeling of disdain out on a bunch of kids and volunteers. In over 3,000 miles of hiking the AT and 25 years of Scouting I have never seen some of the bad things others say they have. Not saying they didn't happen but if they did it is a rare occurrence. I'm willing to stand in front of a room full of Scouts and leaders and discuss what they need to change to be seen in a better light in the hiking community. I wonder how many of you would be willing to stand next to me and tell them they are bigots, meat heads, haters, sexists, homophobic or any of the multitude of other nasty words that have been used.
From reading all the discussion here it seems that other than reinforcing policies regarding Leave No Trace there is not much else that needs to be said to my groups.
Beyond just LNT and camp impact, there needs to be better training of adult leaders in safety (particularly relating to campfire safety and forest fires), reaction / procedures relating to lightning storms, and scouts wandering off alone and getting lost. While policies and training exist, the number of incidents points to a combination of lack of training and enforcement.

[mister krabs]

It is my opinion (and only that) that the gay thing is still in the bylaws because of the LDS contingent, which is a very large lobby in the BSA.

[mister krabs]

Beyond just LNT and camp impact, there needs to be better training of adult leaders in safety (particularly relating to campfire safety and forest fires), reaction / procedures relating to lightning storms, and scouts wandering off alone and getting lost. While policies and training exist, the number of incidents points to a combination of lack of training and enforcement.

There are numerous requirements for outdoor safety training including all the things you mention for leaders. Policing it is difficult for an organization that relies so much on volunteers. We can't get a tour permit without having that training.

[Papa D]

Beyond just LNT and camp impact, there needs to be better training of adult leaders in safety (particularly relating to campfire safety and forest fires), reaction / procedures relating to lightning storms, and scouts wandering off alone and getting lost. While policies and training exist, the number of incidents points to a combination of lack of training and enforcement.

Agreed - the problem is ALWAYS the leaders - one fine point if you please, I dislike the phrase that we "train" kids - the scouts use this term - they like it because it is like "basic training" - their army cousin. Kids should be "taught" and "educated" - you "train" dogs.

[Papa D]

It is my opinion (and only that) that the gay thing is still in the bylaws because of the LDS contingent, which is a very large lobby in the BSA.

What is LDS? (Lucy, Diamond, Sky? - sorry)

[Summit]

Later Day Saints = Mormons.

[Papa D]

Later Day Saints = Mormons.

oh, ok thanks.

[jesse]

... Now, I personally don't think that they should be allowed by the government to have an official policy against homosexuals and against non religious people

Scary.................

[Summit]

It is my opinion (and only that) that the gay thing is still in the bylaws because of the LDS contingent, which is a very large lobby in the BSA.I tend to disagree with this statement. I'm sure there are far more scout troops sponsored by Southern Baptist Churches than there are LDS churches, and the SBC would stridently oppose changing that portion of the bylaws. I'm not saying the LDS has no impact. I'm just saying they have far less than the SBC.

[Doc Bear]

I have two grandsons in the BSA in Maryville, Tn. What are the bad issues if I may ask?

I can see both sides, as a former scout, cubmaster, scoutmaster, and explorer post advisor, I admire BSA's efforts towards conservation and "leave no trace" camping (some groups being better than others- come on were working with urban preadolescents here), but decry their

homophobia, jingoism, and intolerance of those who do not believe in a personal "god"

[Lone Wolf]

if'n i was a moderator i would close this crap thread. same old crap over and over.

[Papa D]

if'n i was a moderator i would close this crap thread. same old crap over and over.

yep - time this one was over.

[hikerboy57]

if'n i was a moderator i would close this crap thread. same old crap over and over.its just talking.:)

[Summit]

Now, I personally don't think that they should be allowed by the government to have an official policy against homosexuals and against non religious people So you are for the US government repealing the first amendment, which gives the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests? That is indeed scary!

[Summit]

its just talking.:)Cha-ching! 1 for hikerboy57! :D

[Papa D]

So you are for the US government repealing the first amendment, which gives the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests? That is indeed scary!

Nope - but the Boy Scouts of America want to get away with having it both ways, being "private" for purposes of discrimination but "public" when it comes to taxpayer support. You can exclude non-believers from your Church but you don't take public funds (I do think Churches should pay property tax though - another issue), you can exclude black people or jewish people from your privately funded soccer game - the first amendment says that YOU have the right of free association - you don't have the right of public support if you discriminate - what I say is NOT scary - you just don't like it.

[mister krabs]

I tend to disagree with this statement. I'm sure there are far more scout troops sponsored by Southern Baptist Churches than there are LDS churches, and the SBC would stridently oppose changing that portion of the bylaws. I'm not saying the LDS has no impact. I'm just saying they have far less than the SBC.

Sorry, but the facts don't support your view. "In 2000 there were approximately 400,000 young boys in the LDS scouting program, which accounted for about 12 % of the boys active in scouting. Only the Methodists had more boys enrolled."

[Summit]

Sorry, but the facts don't support your view. "In 2000 there were approximately 400,000 young boys in the LDS scouting program, which accounted for about 12 % of the boys active in scouting. Only the Methodists had more boys enrolled."You are right! I stand corrected.

From the Wiki:



Name of Organization Total Units Total Youth
Top 10 Chartered Organizations associated with the Boy Scouts of America, by Total Youth[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#cite_note-41)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints)
37928
412720


United Methodist Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church)
11287
371499


Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church)
8795
286733


Parent-teacher groups other than PTAs
4039
160007


Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_%28U.S.A.%29)
3714
126969


Lutheranism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism)
4030
121096


Groups of Citizens
3782
110248


Baptists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists)
4282
108435


Private schools
2975
97869


Parent-Teacher Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent-Teacher_Association)/Parent Teacher Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent_Teacher_Organization)
1775
72321

[4eyedbuzzard]

. . . It seems as though BSA National policies, which the scouts and adults you meet on the trail have nothing to do with, is the main problem. Those that disagree with these policies then take their feeling of disdain out on a bunch of kids and volunteers . . . I'm willing to stand in front of a room full of Scouts and leaders and discuss what they need to change to be seen in a better light in the hiking community. I wonder how many of you would be willing to stand next to me and tell them they are bigots, meat heads, haters, sexists, homophobic or any of the multitude of other nasty words that have been used.Okay, I think I used the words homophobic and bigotry once, but it was definitely worded as applying to the national leadership - not scouts or most local leaders. I am certainly willing to articulate my disdain with national policies in front of any gathering. Are local BSA leaders? I've got nothing to lose in terms of being a member. But it seems those who have been outspoken internally about being in disagreement on these issues get removed from the BSA organization pretty quickly.


I am an elder in a church that has sponsored a troop for 100 years - one of the first troops. Our church has a policy that prohibits discrimination by race, gender, religion (or lack thereof), or sexual orientation by any group who wants to use our buildings. So far no atheists (as far as I know) have asked to join the church, but they'd be welcome with open arms (WWJD?). This has put our troop in a delicate situation. If the BSA National Council finds out that they have agreed to our policy they can (and will) pull their charter. This happened to the Cradle of Liberty Council (Philadelphia) a few years ago. They tried to conform the Council's policy to city anti-discrimination ordinances so that they could continue to use city-owned property rent-free. The National Council came down hard on them and threatened the council's charter.My greatest concern is that the national organization has lost focus on what is truly important, which is the kids/scouts. It's absurd to expect them to know what they "believe" regarding either religion or sexuality, and this even applies to young adults to a large degree as well. What any individual scout is to become later in life based upon their scouting experience is very hard to predict. In the meanwhile, even if a scout grows up to be an atheist or GLBT or both :eek:;), wouldn't society be better served if they had the scouting experience? Even if some people find atheists and GLBT people objectionable due to their beliefs or behaviors, wouldn't it be better that people they object to were trustworthy, honest, good citizens, and had the benefit of all the good values scouting teaches?

[Doc Bear]

I have two grandsons in the BSA in Maryville, Tn. What are the bad issues if I may ask?

I can see both sides:

PRO:
Let me say, as a former scout, cubmaster, scoutmaster, and explorer post advisor, that I truly admire BSA's efforts at conservation and "leave no trace" camping. At Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico they taught us to 1) lick our plate clean, 2) rinse our plates with water and drink it, and 3) boil the plate in cooking water before our next meal to sterilize it (conserves water, consumes all calories, leaves no garbage, attracts no bears). No all Boy Scouts practice this?!?

CON:
Come on, we're dealing here primarily urban preadolescents here, and most of the stories you will hear on this will be horror stories. The intent is there, but the reality clearly leaves much to be desired. My personal objection to current Boy Scouts reflects my own evolution. I (and many others) now abhor their:
1) homophobia,
2) nationistic jingoism, and
3) religious intolerance (towards those who do not accept their image of a personal God)

But they are a private organization. That's my $0.02

[Wise Old Owl]

I tend to disagree with this statement. I'm sure there are far more scout troops sponsored by Southern Baptist Churches than there are LDS churches, and the SBC would stridently oppose changing that portion of the bylaws. I'm not saying the LDS has no impact. I'm just saying they have far less than the SBC.

Glad you mentioned that - prior to my oop's I saw this......Read Ross's take on that issue.

http://dailyross.com/2010/02/the-bsas-mormon-problem/

[Wise Old Owl]

Wow Doc what happens when they burn the pancake at Phiilmont and it inedible?

I have been saving this and will try to remove the politics of it as best I can

The BSA has been tolerating hundreds of attacks all over the USA and financially it may not keep up.....

They are seen as big pockets to lawyers and will take on the BSA for trivial stuff and unique acts of God (kid struck by lightening)

Here are some others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katrina_Yeaw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_v._Dale

Since 1975, Boy Scouts of America has been involved in more than 30 lawsuits attacking its values. Until the late 1990s, nearly all of those lawsuits were about membership in and employment by Scouting. The cases challenged Scouting's right to set standards for membership, principally that Scouts are required to believe in God, be male, and not to be openly homosexual.

Here is the BSA new website to inform others of the plight.

http://www.bsalegal.org/litigation-222.asp

[Don H]

It is my opinion (and only that) that the gay thing is still in the bylaws because of the LDS contingent, which is a very large lobby in the BSA.

mister krabs obviously has an in-depth understanding of BSA politics.

[Wise Old Owl]

Don H do you have a better explanation? Perhaps "tradition" and general non acceptance of openly flaming skits around the campfire at camp-outs and sing a longs of Barbara Streisand?


Reference Blue (Collar Comedy Tour) Hunting Trip

[Doc Bear]

Wow Doc what happens when they burn the pancake at Phiilmont and it inedible?

I have been saving this and will try to remove the politics of it as best I can...

Here is the BSA new website to inform others of the plight.

http://www.bsalegal.org/litigation-222.asp

Wise Old:

The website you referenced is a private one not officially affiliated with BSA, which states unoffically: "most importantly, Boy Scouts of America will not allow the attacks to sway it from its mission: to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

A scout is "trustworthy".

P.S. All good scouts do not burn their pancakes. They eat them all.

[Wise Old Owl]

Thanks I missed that... still don't see it... oh well.

[Feral Bill]

Good on WOO for correcting himself. It takes a real man to do that.

That would be WOO.

[sheepdog]

I will not tolerate intolerance.

[sheepdog]

I've been away a while.

not much has changed....

[4eyedbuzzard]

I've been away a while.

not much has changed....You missed a good gun thread. And yeah, don't waste time searching.

[sheepdog]

You missed a good gun thread. And yeah, don't waste time searching.

hehehehehehehe

[rocketsocks]

You missed a good gun thread. And yeah, don't waste time searching.good one four eyes LOL

[JAK]

Funny how I was able to enjoy cub scouts without realizing there was so much politics and religion involved.

[rocketsocks]

cub scouts was great we use to paint,cut,paste,and eat brownies

[Papa D]

isn't this thread done? Let's talk about women or whiskey or backpacking or something ......

[Wise Old Owl]

Funny how I was able to enjoy cub scouts without realizing there was so much politics and religion involved.

You remind me of something Jak...
I saw that first hand in Cub Scouts at the Catholic Church.- My kid had a ball, playing basketball and the other parents were having a hissy fit in their cliquish attitudes towards others & kids that don't quite fit in.... Never forgot what they said, but its just kids having fun, while poorly behaved cat fighting parents bicker. Not much practice in forgiveness there, after a while it was fine by me to find a better church...

I would love a conversation about Corn Squeezin any day but we cannot do that here Papa D. I am a huge fan of Foxfire

[Papa D]

You remind me of something Jak...
I saw that first hand in Cub Scouts at the Catholic Church.- My kid had a ball, playing basketball and the other parents were having a hissy fit in their cliquish attitudes towards others & kids that don't quite fit in.... Never forgot what they said, but its just kids having fun, while poorly behaved cat fighting parents bicker. Not much practice in forgiveness there, after a while it was fine by me to find a better church...

I would love a conversation about Corn Squeezin any day but we cannot do that here Papa D. I am a huge fan of Foxfire

Foxfire was a book - a series of books about "old mountain ways" in Rabun County, GA including hunting, fishing, furniture making, pottery, moonshine and so forth. Once upon a time, I was hired to take a group of kids from the Rabun Gap Nacoochee School rock climbing for a couple of days in Pisgah forest and learned about the Foxfire Series - really cool stuff - later, there was some controversy regarding the Foxfire books or the school - I can't remember what it was though ....

[dshideler]

Probably about their boy scout group.

[waasj]

Only issue I have with BSA on the trail is they are generally fairly large, somewhat unsupervised groups that tend to take over a shelter/campsite. I was at Blood Mountain with my son and it was all nice and peaceful until a troop pulled in with about 15 kids from about 8 to 15 years old. Spent the afternoon running around with little guidance from the adults. I think overall the program is a very positive one that does a decent job with young kids. My son is a scout, I was a scout and so was my father. They need to work on back country etiquette.

[Summit]

Probably about their boy scout group.Good job! Keep the thread on topic! :)

I used to read Foxfire and had about 10 or so of the books. Definitely good stuff! Not aware of any controversy and none mentioned on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_%28magazine%29

[Summit]

PS - RE Foxfire . . . I loved the stories handed down to the kids at Rabun Gap by their grandparents about the old days in the mountains . . . turn of the century era.

[JAK]

lol

Someone ought to tell the 17 million scouts in Indonesia they are wasting their time and squadering their youth. I mean, if it's so wrong over here, under the right god and country, what hope do they have?

[Wise Old Owl]

Jak - stuff can be different there.... looks like a lot of fun...

14970

[Wise Old Owl]

Foxfire was a book - a series of books about "old mountain ways" in Rabun County, GA including hunting, fishing, furniture making, pottery, moonshine and so forth. Once upon a time, I was hired to take a group of kids from the Rabun Gap Nacoochee School rock climbing for a couple of days in Pisgah forest and learned about the Foxfire Series - really cool stuff - later, there was some controversy regarding the Foxfire books or the school - I can't remember what it was though ....

I still have some copies....!

[4eyedbuzzard]

http://www.foxfire.org/magazine.html Pretty cool

[Lone Wolf]

how about young boys that think they're girls getting into girl scouts? since we're way off topic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzDjl6ticuk

[Sierra Echo]

I don't hate anyone!

[Rasty]

Saw a quote once. "I hate people that hate"


I don't hate anyone!

[Wise Old Owl]

I am not even going to try to defend that video.... However LW, yea I can make an educated guess about this - and its not exactly trans-gender, and if you notice the people she is quoting will not go into details because of the privacy rules for protecting children and if I am wrong, oh well here's my guess ... this is most likely where its from:

The word Hermaphrodite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite) comes from Hermaphroditus (http://www.bartleby.com/81/8199.html), the name given to the son of the ancient Greek gods Hermes and Aphrodite. The reality is, like most people in general, do not know what actually causes people to be born intersexed, and they have just as little information about how these people should live their lives. Hermaphrodite was used to describe any person incompatible with the biological [/URL] but has recently been replaced by intersex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_binary) in medicine. Pseudohermaphroditism also refers to a human possessing both the organs.

Now some kids are born and parents opt for a operation to fix it, others let the kids grow up and get it fixed later, and still again others do nothing but try to lead full lives.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite#cite_note-11)
1 in 25,000 kids grow up like this with both x & y chromosomes where folks first learned about this, remember this famous movie... [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite#cite_note-11"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula)Caligua


http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/BornHermaphrodite/ (http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/BornHermaphrodite/)

[Sierra Echo]

Saw a quote once. "I hate people that hate"

I feel sorry for people who hate!

[WingedMonkey]

Good job! Keep the thread on topic! :)

I used to read Foxfire and had about 10 or so of the books. Definitely good stuff! Not aware of any controversy and none mentioned on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_(magazine) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_%28magazine%29)

I would say your research skills are flawed. And yes I have every volume because they relate to my mountain ancestors.
But if you were to look into the history of the books, you will find that the original editor and teacher, Eliot Wigginton was accused and pleaded to molesting children.

So...I guess reading his books makes you a child molester? No of course not. Reading his books makes you a moonshiner? Of course not (although talk of the illegal use of said spirits was allowed in another thread).

I would rather have a out gay leader in scouting than a closeted child molester teaching children.

[rocketsocks]

Don't be hatein':sun

[rocketsocks]

Don't be hatein':sunYo yo yo,Igot thread jumed this should have been after Echo and before Monkey.:-?

[Bear Cables]

The girls in my BSA Venturing Crew would disagree. They joined Venturing to find more adventurous activities. Our past activities have included: rock climbing, luging, high ropes courses, snowboarding, backpacking, camping, and scuba-diving. Sometimes, I note that the girls in my Crew are more serious about this stuff than the boys in it, probably because they don't take it for granted as much. My boys involved in BSA have learned to cook amoung other things...Plus, although a female leader, I have more backpacking experience than any of the male leaders.I ,as a female have also lead a Venture crew of boys and girls. We sailed the Florida Keys, backpacked, snow skied , white water rafted and performed community service projects. I also was welcome in my sons' troop as a female leader and was ask to be the crew advisor for our 2001 Philmont trek. It was my second Philmont experience. While at Philmont there were as many young women on staff as Rangers as young men. So I neverexperienced sexism in BSA.

[Summit]

I would say your research skills are flawed.I would say you need to check your arrogant uppity attitude at the door. I did not, nor was I interested in doing an exhaustive research regarding a prior poster's comment. The rest of you comment is not worth commenting on.

[WingedMonkey]

I used to read Foxfire and had about 10 or so of the books. Definitely good stuff! Not aware of any controversy
Why are you not aware?

[Summit]

Why are you not aware?I simply never heard about the incident. I'm not exactly all over the news everyday. Got a problem with that?

[4eyedbuzzard]

Guys, come on, in the spirit of the thread........... Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful, etc. :D

[Sierra Echo]

Guys, come on, in the spirit of the thread........... Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful, etc. :D

Oh shut the hell up!!
Bwah ahhahahahahhahahahha! You know I love you buzzard!

[Lostone]

I could give some of the JUNK! I have carried. and It would be better than the JUNK I seen them carry. Serious it sounds like a good idea and How about them Girl Scouts.



Ya know harry the same selfish attitudes you see on here is why scouts go with poor gear.

Mom needs a $100 manicure instead of buying Scout a sleeping bag. Dad goes to hooters with the guys and fails to buy scout new backpack or sleeping pad.....My families cannot afford to buy their 12 year old a $100+ dollar backpack or multiple hundreds on a tent. I understand their position.......There scout might ever backpack again so they won't spend the money.

I am not sure what you believe about scouting, but most Troops and scout familes don't have deep pockets........Hense the second rate gear....

[4eyedbuzzard]

Oh shut the hell up!!
Bwah ahhahahahahhahahahha! You know I love you buzzard!

I'm truly hurt 14971

[WingedMonkey]

I ,as a female have also lead a Venture crew of boys and girls. We sailed the Florida Keys, backpacked, snow skied , white water rafted and performed community service projects. I also was welcome in my sons' troop as a female leader and was ask to be the crew advisor for our 2001 Philmont trek. It was my second Philmont experience. While at Philmont there were as many young women on staff as Rangers as young men. So I neverexperienced sexism in BSA.

It's a joy to see female scouts on the trail. Not something allowed on my three expeditions to Philmont in my own youth. And I can assure you, even if you like men, I totally trust you around the young men you are responsible for.

[Sierra Echo]

I'm truly hurt 14971

Oh buzzard! Don't make me come pat you on the head in comfort!