View Full Version : Alcohol Stove and Below Freezing Temps
Hey all,
Today I did a little day hike up to Clark's Ferry Shelter. After reaching the top of the ridge I noticed that the temperature hovered around 20F this morning. I attempted to make myself some lunch after arriving at the shelter but the fuel would not burn. With me, I carried the denatured alcohol you find in hardware stores in the large square tin containers at the hardware store. I believe it's used for for boats and whatnot. Anyway, I wonder if it was just the low temperature that affected my less than successful lunch today? Perhaps a different type of alcohol works better below freezing?
I picked up some HEET in the yellow container. It seems a lot of people use that stuff so I hope that'll solve my problem. It was kind of disappointing hauling back a ziplock bag filled with frozen noodles and tuna. Fail.
By the way, I have tested my stove set up. I have a stove from www.bottlestoves.com (sweet deal) that has worked fine on test runs. It couples nicely with my Optimus Terra weekender cookset ordinarly.
Thanks!
I think that alcohol stoves have their place as a "fast and light" tool for solo, "seasonal" backpacking - they are (in my opinion) woefully inadequate for winter camping use -- I use an alcohol stove (home-made) some and also use a pocket rocket but in winter, the liquid fuel whisper-light usually gets the call.
I think that alcohol stoves have their place as a "fast and light" tool for solo, "seasonal" backpacking - they are (in my opinion) woefully inadequate for winter camping use -- I use an alcohol stove (home-made) some and also use a pocket rocket but in winter, the liquid fuel whisper-light usually gets the call.
Perhaps the low temps messed with the alcohol. I could get it lit for short periods of time but it wouldn't stay for long. Also, it was a pain to even get started for the short duration the flame lasted. Normally, any slight spark near that future ignites it instantly. I even had a wind screen around it as well. Oh well.
I guess esbit works fine at low temps?
I have used my alcohol stove down to about 12 degrees. I carry the alcohol in my jacket pocket and also keep a little baggie of dryer lint handy. I usually light the stove with a fire steel and sometimes have to put a little piece of dryer lint on top and light that to get the fuel going.
Previous posters have much more knowledge about alcohol stoves than me - so, I guess they WILL work when it's super cold - I still think of it as more applicable in warm weather given the choice
Denatured alcohol doesn't vaporize well in freezing temperatures. Like Storm mentioned in his post above, a simple solution is to warm your fuel bottle before using. Toss it in your pants or under your shirt next to your skin for a bit just before using your stove.
No worries.
Hey all,
Today I did a little day hike up to Clark's Ferry Shelter. After reaching the top of the ridge I noticed that the temperature hovered around 20F this morning. I attempted to make myself some lunch after arriving at the shelter but the fuel would not burn. With me, I carried the denatured alcohol you find in hardware stores in the large square tin containers at the hardware store. I believe it's used for for boats and whatnot. Anyway, I wonder if it was just the low temperature that affected my less than successful lunch today? Perhaps a different type of alcohol works better below freezing?
I picked up some HEET in the yellow container. It seems a lot of people use that stuff so I hope that'll solve my problem. It was kind of disappointing hauling back a ziplock bag filled with frozen noodles and tuna. Fail.
By the way, I have tested my stove set up. I have a stove from www.bottlestoves.com (http://www.bottlestoves.com) (sweet deal) that has worked fine on test runs. It couples nicely with my Optimus Terra weekender cookset ordinarly.
Thanks!
I was in Slaughter Gap last weekend, temps below 20 degrees, and with a windscreen and 1oz. of fuel was able to boil 12 oz of H2o... I was using Smokeater908's Rollover Stove(TOTALLY BAD A$$) and a TiGoat 450ml cup with the Carbon Fibre lid... I have never had a problem boiling water with SLX fuel... Granted it took an ounce of fuel, when normally it takes half that...
I was in Slaughter Gap last weekend, temps below 20 degrees, and with a windscreen and 1oz. of fuel was able to boil 12 oz of H2o... I was using Smokeater908's Rollover Stove(TOTALLY BAD A$$) and a TiGoat 450ml cup with the Carbon Fibre lid... I have never had a problem boiling water with SLX fuel... Granted it took an ounce of fuel, when normally it takes half that...
I was out last weekend too - between Hot Springs and Erwin - good snow - I boiled two hot water bottles each night and had plenty of fuel for coffee, hot chocolate and dinners - glad to know someone else was out;)
never had a problem with my homemade wick stove and using yellow heet.
Hopefully using the yellow HEET along with warming my fuel up with my body heat will solve the problem. Thanks!
I was out last weekend too - between Hot Springs and Erwin - good snow - I boiled two hot water bottles each night and had plenty of fuel for coffee, hot chocolate and dinners - glad to know someone else was out;)
Believe it or not, Woods Hole Shelter was full PLUS there were 5 more tents besides mine when I woke up Sunday morning... Including an REI rental tent... Pretty cool...
Denatured alcohol doesn't vaporize well in freezing temperatures. Like Storm mentioned in his post above, a simple solution is to warm your fuel bottle before using. Toss it in your pants or under your shirt next to your skin for a bit just before using your stove.
No worries.
I've used alcohol stoves down to -5 degrees F. May even work lower than that, but I've not had the opportunity to try. I backpack all winter and always take an alcohol stove, unless I will need to melt snow, in which case I'd recommend a woodburning or white gas stove.
The colder it is, the more you have to be clever lighting your alcohol stove. Once the stove and fuel are warm, the alcohol will continue to vaporize and no problems. Warming fuel in your pocket helps. If you put something under the stove to insulate it from cold ground or snow, that will help as well.
Some stove-lighting techniques that I've used: [1] dip a thick twig in alcohol and light the twig with your lighter and use the flaming twig end to light your stove (thanks to Handlebar for teaching me this one); [2] wrap your stove in fiberglass wick material (at home) and drip alcohol onto the wicking wrap and light that (I got my fiberglass wick from Tinny at MiniBull Designs); [3] put a small foil or flashing square with a turned up edge under your stove and drip some alcohol into this and light with soaked twig method (some stoves like the Caldera Cone stoves I use have a basin like this permanently attached to the stove); [4] when all else fails, use part of a cotton ball with some vaseline in it right next to your stove, light it and the flame from the cotton ball should get everything going; [5] especially in high wind, don't forget a good wind screen.
I hiked with the "Parade of Fools" from Pen-Mar north a couple of years ago in winter. I used a Supercat stove and kept my fuel bottle either in my jacket pocket or sleeping bag. I had no trouble lighting it (the stove), and it boiled water (which I also slept with) nearly as fast as it does in the warmer months.
I think that non-pressurized stoves are easier to use, generally. They don't need priming pans or wicks, which add weight, and the Supercat doesn't need a pot stand, which adds weight and requires the use of a taller wind screen.
So, 1) Keep your fuel and water warm, and
2) Try a Supercat stove.
Btw: I use SLX denatured alcohol.
ljcsov
For me the easiest way to light an alcohol stove at below freezing temps is by using a small bit of cotton impregnated with petroleum jelly (Vaseline)
You put that over the rim and into the burner so that it reaches the fuel. It will light at any temp heating up the burner and the fuel and the fuel will light up and remain lit up.
I find that many alcohol stoves work best if you start with more fuel than you need.
And that is why I use a snuffer to put the flame out and recover fuel once done.
See this video on how I do that :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX9j7pF38Tw&list=UU0PuLUKvG7Fxxex5BMVK4vw&index=14&feature=plcp
I am using there the Caldera Cone stove and a White Box very similar to yours.
(Yes, have some insulation under the stove. A silicone pad of the type used as a pot lifter can work)
BTW, I don't use alcohol if I know I will need to melt snow...
Franco
kayak karl
01-20-2012, 18:02
never had a problem, but i've only been down to zero (heard you need to keep fuel warm below that) . i use a Caldera from anti-gravity and whatever denatured the hostels are selling me.
rocketsocks
01-20-2012, 18:29
never had a problem, but i've only been down to zero (heard you need to keep fuel warm below that) . i use a Caldera from anti-gravity and whatever denatured the hostels are selling me.A small copper wire placed inside the fuel chamber and extruding to the outside then bent toward the flame may keep the fuel warm.This is how a sunshine miners lamp I have works,and pretty well.These lamps in the 1800's used bacon fat and tallow as whale oil was very expensive,though any fat will burn and the fuels most definitely varied.
Same problems as the SVEA white gas stove has in extreme cold. You need to warm the fuel prior to lighting, and keep it warm while burning. My suggestions:
- as others have said, keep fuel in a jacket pocket where your body heat will keep it warm
- pre-heat the stove with some kind of primer, Colin Fletcher used to use his teabag wrapper held underneath the stove
- insulate the stove from the ground, I use a small square of closed cell foam. Wrap it in foil if you fear it will ignite (never has in years of using it with my SVEA
- use a good wind screen, maybe a Caldera Cone would be best. This reflects heat back to the stove during a burn
A small copper wire placed inside the fuel chamber and extruding to the outside then bent toward the flame may keep the fuel warm.This is how a sunshine miners lamp I have works,and pretty well.These lamps in the 1800's used bacon fat and tallow as whale oil was very expensive,though any fat will burn and the fuels most definitely varied.
I'd like to see a picture of that. Any chance you could post a close-up?
I suspect Zelph will start cranking out stoves based on that description any day now..... :-)
rocketsocks
01-20-2012, 19:44
To expand a (little).You can use a bic lighter or glowing ember to heat the little copper wire,which transfers heat very well do to it's....(explained better by others),and then when fuel is warmed (and it won't take long 15-20sec or so)light stove.Hope this helps.
Rocket Jones
01-20-2012, 20:18
I wrapped my Supercat with Kevlar thread (http://www.pratthobbies.com/products.asp?cat=1) and drip a couple of drops of alcohol on it before filling and lighting. Works like a champ. (scroll down the page at that link for the thread)
Thanks again everyone! I have plenty of things to try next time!
I'm seeing 28 degrees right now in Harrisburg. You could go into your backyard and make yourself a cup of Hot Choc. By doing this you figure out how to use your stove before you get on the trail.
Slo-go'en
01-20-2012, 21:56
The trick is to insulate the stove from the ground and cold air so the heat isn't sucked out of it.
I put my stove inside a larger can with fiberglass insulation packed around the stove. I drilled 1/4" holes around the top edge of the can for ventilation and allows the flame to come out the top of the can. This can also serves as the pot stand. The stove sits about 1" below the lip of the outer can. I belive I used a Bush baked bean can for the outer shell. The alky stove is a typical soda can stove. The whole assembly still fits into my MSR .7l Ti pot, but I wrap the stove assembly in a plastic bag because of the fiberglass insulation.
I've tested this to -15 F with no problems. Pour some alcohol into the insulation around the stove and light that for priming. I have a video about this on youtube. A search for "cold weather alcohol stove" should turn it up. But in that video I used a tea light candle to pre-heat the stove using an outer can with the bottom cut out. It turns out that is not required.
Wise Old Owl
01-20-2012, 22:23
I'd like to see a picture of that. Any chance you could post a close-up?
I suspect Zelph will start cranking out stoves based on that description any day now..... :-)
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Temps last week (13th) at Stover Creek shelter dipped below 20 also, and the caldera cone did sputter at first but after that was ok. I light with a dipped twig too.
I'm seeing 28 degrees right now in Harrisburg. You could go into your backyard and make yourself a cup of Hot Choc. By doing this you figure out how to use your stove before you get on the trail.
I'm going to give this a go tomorrow. I want to make sure I give the fuel time to sit outside so I actually have to warm it up! :)
rocketsocks
01-21-2012, 00:31
I'd like to see a picture of that. Any chance you could post a close-up?
I suspect Zelph will start cranking out stoves based on that description any day now..... :-)I think I'm going into the stove business as well,do you think there's a market?LOL,I could call it the rocket.Spokes, if I could figure out how to pull pictures into my post,I would be glad to share My little collection mining memorabilia,complete with bird cages,hand blasters,lunch boxes and more,and yes some lamps,like the famed auto lite calcium carbide lamp which Woo has posted,I used one this halloween as part of my costume,it burns great.
The technique I use is to carry wooden matches. Light a match and hold the flame just above the surface of the alcohol for a moment. That warms a small bit of alcohol and starts it vaporizing. Then drop the whole march into the alcohol. The only problem I have sometimes is lighting the matches in high winds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r68jMBLtuuY
JansportD2
01-21-2012, 14:13
Use a priming pan and a little alcohol in the pan. Drop a lit wooden match right into the priming pan.
During the Iditarod, the mushers use alcohol cookers:
http://www.pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/108856138
http://www.arcticrecreation.com/gallery/v/iditasport2008/IMG_0552.jpg.html
I just watched a video of Shug Emery over on Hammock Forums using his Fancy Feest alky stove in minus 18F temps during a recent hang in Minnesota so it can certainly be done. I'm pretty sure he's even gone below that temp. I've done it in single digits with no problems.
Today's cold attempt was a fail. I left my kit outside along with fuel and couldn't get it going right. I ended up trying it inside to make sure everything was alright with my set up. Sure enough, when I used fuel kept inside (room temp) it primed fine. I guess I need to make sure that fuel is nice and warm by keeping it on my person for a good amount of time. Hopefully I'll get better at it. Perhaps the best move is when I am getting ready to cook would be to put the stove and the alcohol into my pants pockets. The legs always stay nice and warm!
Wise Old Owl
01-21-2012, 17:17
I would like to see which stove you are using - I am guessing that might be an issue
sheepdog
01-21-2012, 17:34
A real hiker has 20=30 stoves. One for all conditions. :D
I would like to see which stove you are using - I am guessing that might be an issue
www.bottlestoves.com
Its one of those pressurized ones that has to prime for the jets to light up. Perhaps I am better off with the simple tuna or cat can style stove that's simply an open can with holes punched in?
rocketsocks
01-21-2012, 18:53
A real hiker has 20=30 stoves. One for all conditions. :DI got 31 1/2 stoves whud you get?
So my take away from this is....
1) Heat up fuel in my pocket before use
2) Use an "open stove" such as a cat can stove
3) Use various methods to introduce a flame to the fuel until it catches fire
So my take away from this is....
1) Heat up fuel in my pocket before use
2) Use an "open stove" such as a cat can stove
3) Use various methods to introduce a flame to the fuel until it catches fire
If the fuel is warm you should be able to light it with a Bic lighter.
4) Insulate it from the ground (I use a pie pan bottom which I put on a table top or shelter floor, to keep it from burning the wood). It works on bare ground or a flat rock, too - and helps reflect the heat back at the stove.
5) Don't forget a good windscreen with 1/4-1/2" of space around your cookpot (which will be more efficient if the bottom is wider, the top is covered, and has a small rock on it to hold in the steam).
It isn't the fuel, it is the stove. A wick based stove like Zelph's Fancee Feest will work. In fact I used it two weeks ago in the adirondacks when it was -21*F (yes that is a negative). The alcohol was SLX denatured and was sitting out all night, so it was the same temp as the air. I didn't need to pre-heat it, or any other tricks. It did take a few seconds for the flame to propagate around the entire wick but it worked great for melting snow and boiling water.
Good points.
I use a Trangia burner, but I haven't used it colder than the mid 20's F. It always lights for me and I don't preheat it. I use SLX. It is a little slow getting up to full speed when it is cold, but it has always worked. Some stove designs work better than others, and the Trangia has been around for a long, long time and wasn't developed by people who live in Southern California :)
I don't hike much in the snow and cold, and if I did some serious treks I would likely carry a white gas stove for raw BTU output. But when there is still running water, and I want a hot mid-day meal, my little alcohol setup has worked just fine for me.
Even if you never intend to do winter camping, the cold weather is a great chance to test stoves and sleeping systems so you know the limits.
It isn't the fuel, it is the stove. A wick based stove like Zelph's Fancee Feest will work. In fact I used it two weeks ago in the adirondacks when it was -21*F (yes that is a negative). The alcohol was SLX denatured and was sitting out all night, so it was the same temp as the air. I didn't need to pre-heat it, or any other tricks. It did take a few seconds for the flame to propagate around the entire wick but it worked great for melting snow and boiling water.
The wick accomplishes what your body heat would. It preheats the alcohol in the stove (It lights readily because of the large amount of surface area that the wick gives to the alcohol on it, allowing more contact with oxygen), causing it to vaporize, where it can mix with oxygen and be burned. A wick or priming pan is a near necessity on a pressurized stove in cold temperatures unless you keep your fuel warm.
It is both stove and fuel. :)
A wick is a fantastic way to get an alcohol stove started in the winter. Unfortunately, unless you get your pot on the stove while the wick is still burning, the alcohol used in the priming process is not utilized optimally. ;):-?
Interesting thread. I wonder if some of these ideas might allow you to use isopropanol at summer temperatures. I can get 95% isopropanol rubbing alcohol, but of course it burns like crap. I use 99% ethanol, denatured with camphor and denaturium. Burns really well and is safe for first aid (not drinking), but probably doesn't work as well as methanol in the very cold unless I try some of the above ideas, which I will. I am already doing alot of these ideas with the vegetable oil burner I have been messing around with. Insulate from ground, lots of jute wick, sometimes I use some snare wire to conduct back heat into the liquid fuel. It's good to have a solid alcohol or oil or esbit backup in winter to wood, because sometimes you don't want to mess around to much with sticks, as it can be hard to tell which ones are dry and snappy, and which ones are only snappy because they are frozen, but not dry. I carry a hatchet mid winter, in the event I need a small campfire, but for a quick breakfast or dinner or hot drink, something quicker is better and a hobo stove needs to be a little bigger than what you brung to work well enough. Spiking the wood fuel with oil or alcohol can work sometimes, and conversely a little wood with the alcohol or oil, or wax.
Standard warning with oil and wax: Can heat up to 500F as a liquid. Burns flesh to the bone. Keep the ammount in the burner very small, like 0.5oz, and don't put it somewhere that it will burn you if it spills.
I've tried isopro in the summer. It works, but is very sooty. I haven't made a cost analysis between iso and bulk denatured alcohol, though I have found that denatured alcohol can be carried in iso bottles (reuse as part of recycling).
Re: Esbit - If it's kept in an outside pocket of the pack it can be used for a quick hot cup of soup (unless your cup is buried inside your pack) because all you need are a couple of small, flat rocks and some bare dirt. I use the foil on top of the individual packets under the cube, place it between the rocks, put water and soup mix in cup (or coffee packet, whatever) light the cube, and place the cup on the rocks (you can use three tent stakes stuck in the ground, too). It's not the least expensive way to go, but it sure is convienient. Note: a windscreen is always a bonus when using low heat output fuels like alcohol and Esbit, so some easily accessed tinfoil is a good idea for those quick stops, too.
The wick accomplishes what your body heat would. It preheats the alcohol in the stove (It lights readily because of the large amount of surface area that the wick gives to the alcohol on it, allowing more contact with oxygen), causing it to vaporize, where it can mix with oxygen and be burned. A wick or priming pan is a near necessity on a pressurized stove in cold temperatures unless you keep your fuel warm.
It is both stove and fuel. :)
A wick is a fantastic way to get an alcohol stove started in the winter. Unfortunately, unless you get your pot on the stove while the wick is still burning, the alcohol used in the priming process is not utilized optimally. ;):-?
I was typing on my phone and it took long enough for my earlier short reply. I had a feeling someone would misunderstand my point (and stove). Your reply to my post would be correct if the wick was a priming wick, in my stove it is not. The Fancee Feest stove is NOT pressurized (not even semi). The alcohol burns off the wick continuously like a candle. It does not "bloom",t here is no priming of the stove at all, it lights and burns. Thus it is the stove, not the fuel.
To see the fancee feest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19hT0Ffvoec
cabbagehead
02-08-2012, 09:36
If your stove doesn't burn well, I recommend placing a non-flammable form of insulation under it. One solution is to flip over a can, and place the stove on top. Also, some ceiling tiles might work. Test them first. All stoves have their advantages and disadvantages. A pressurized stove is going to be more fuel efficient than a non-pressurized one once it is primed.
Nitrojoe
02-08-2012, 14:05
Backpackinglight.com just done a study on stoves to use during cold weather conditions. Check it out!
Backpackinglight.com just done a study on stoves to use during cold weather conditions. Check it out!
Did you happen to notice that you are talking about a pay site? I sincerely doubt you would get much more from that pay site article than just cruising the forums.
Did you happen to notice that you are talking about a pay site? I sincerely doubt you would get much more from that pay site article than just cruising the forums.
.....+1.....
BJStuart
02-10-2012, 17:01
Like dla, I've used the Trangia alcohol stoves to the teens or so with no problem; mostly now I use my trusty Whisperlite since I'm usually out with the family & we boil lots of water. I wouldn't be worried about either one down to as cold as I could stand to be out. They aren't as light as some other options, but I trust them. I've tried the supercats & stuff, but if I'm out by myself I'll just take the Trangia for peace of mind.
cabbagehead
03-08-2012, 17:21
I made a video about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ySI-WYe_Y
cabbagehead
03-08-2012, 17:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ySI-WYe_Y
Use a priming pan and a little alcohol in the pan. Drop a lit wooden match right into the priming pan.
During the Iditarod, the mushers use alcohol cookers:
http://www.arcticrecreation.com/gallery/v/iditasport2008/IMG_0552.jpg.html
Yellow bottle heet is methanol.