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Outdoor76
01-26-2012, 13:32
Below is a modified response to something we just posted in the VFF thread. We're getting lots of calls with footwear inquiries and questions as NOBO season begins. Each year, the same individual preferences come up and the same problems send people home early. Its our hope that as many thru-hikers as possible take this to heart, we know how important finishing is - and its means so much to us to be a part of you all accomplishing your goals...

Consider this first...Your chances of getting to Maine go up exponentially regardless of how good/light the gear is on your back when your feet are truly taken care of.

There have been endless posts inquiring on general consensus of shoes... We all want light shoes that let us stretch our gate, be more nimble and increase efficiency. Here's the catch ...without seeing your feet and knowing what your background is, save yourself the headache of asking strangers opinions of shoes.

There's basically 2 schools of thought when it comes to caring for your feet ...your feet are like your teeth, eyes...etc - they don't get better as you get older, so take care of them. The flip-side is (with age and physiology on your side), make them stronger through safe conditioning so the muscles can mitigate the load going to the connective tissue. Its the same reason a baseball team only gets 1-2 games a week on their best pitcher. If he overused his arm, the connective tissues in his arm would suffer injuries that take extremely long terms to recover because the muscle loses its ability to stabilize. Your feet are the same way - even MORE complex. A lot of people start too neutral and too light, get 100 miles in to us and decide to make changes. Unfortunately, a plantars issue, achilles tendonitis or an alignment issue has created a problem that REALLY needs weeks or longer with no use to heal. So, with that being said - this is VERY grey area, and getting a shoe plug on a forum can be really bad news despite all other good preparation.

So what about conditioning your feet pre-hike with neutral shoes of barefoot shoes? Another really tough call... a 40yr old can't just join a gym and expect to lift what he did in highschool - if he ever gets to that point again, it could take months of conditioning. Accelerating the process could (and is likely) to cause something worse than ANY benefits you would ever receive with adaptation. We've seen AT hikers in their early-mid 20's in stellar physical condition have jacked-up feet. Everybody's adaptation is very different - and physiology rulesSo there really is no way to give a true shoe recommendation without having your feet looked at.

Generalizing trail runners - this is probably one of the most sketchy invitations for a foot problem. People throw that term ("trail runner") around so liberally, but fail to recognize that a shoe does 2 things. Its 1st job is that its a garment for your foot. It protects from hot/cold, water, sharp things, dirt.... Its SECOND job is the most important - BIOMECHANICS!! I can pull 10 different trail runners that all do different things - but all most people know is that its a "trail runner". A shoe is a tool and you might need a different tool than the next guy to get the job done. You might very well be able to use a trail runner ...but do you need a posting, heel stability, shank ... what about volume distribution?? There are tons of questions. I can show (5) Salomons that all look like trail runners but range in comparable utility, similar to the differences between a Ford F-150 and a Porsche 911. What is best for your foot? You might like the Porsche but NEED the F-150.

Then comes the way we fit - the cornerstone of being in the right shoe. Many fail to recognize that fitting is about 10% finding your size and 90% finding a shoe that fits your foot. A shoe should be reactive to YOUR foot, not the other way around ... most people put a shoe on and feel for the toe and call it a day. If you go somewhere and thats the first thing they do ...or if they ask what size YOU want - WALK AWAY!! They're clueless.

Go get fit :) ..and let a pedorthist or someone pedorthist-trained that knows feet get you in what you need to be. You chances of getting to Maine go up exponentially regardless of how good your gear is on your back. If you have any specific questions, feel free to call us - we'll be happy to do our best to help you out.

Outdoor 76
76 E Main St. - Franklin, NC

Tinker
01-26-2012, 13:51
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

The threads here are stuffed to the gills with folks saying what works for them and suggesting that the same will work for others.

If it does, it's more freak luck than anything else.

Get fitted by an expert, and accept the FACT that what you might WANT is NOT necessarily the best for you.
:)

Alligator
01-26-2012, 13:58
Regarding trail runners, what can be done to differentiate them better in discussions? It's kind of like just saying sneakers. I know that the trail runner I use for hiking is not what I want to use for actual trail running.

Cuffs
01-26-2012, 14:09
Who are you and who do you work for? TNF?

waywardfool
01-26-2012, 14:14
Who are you and who do you work for? TNF?

Says right at the bottom of his post. Outdoor 76 at 76 E Main St. in Franklin, NC. He's introduced himself here before.

Outdoor76
01-26-2012, 14:23
Who are you and who do you work for? TNF?

We're an outfitter that is deeply committed to serving thru-hikers. We're not doing this to promote any brand or even ourselves. Nothing would make us happier than to see people coming to us with NO foot issues. Our reason for posting this is to give insight to all that don't know that there are really important issues with footwear.

Mother's Finest
01-26-2012, 14:24
good post

droppin some science on y'all

peace
mf

Outdoor76
01-26-2012, 14:27
Regarding trail runners, what can be done to differentiate them better in discussions? It's kind of like just saying sneakers. I know that the trail runner I use for hiking is not what I want to use for actual trail running.

That's all relative to the foot they're going on ...and yes, its like "Kleenex" - just a term. A trail runner could easily be generalized as a sneaker with an aggressive sole. Differentiation is in the technical biomechanic features of a shoe - from posting to volume distribution and everything in between. And you're not the norm - many think the shoe they run in could/should be the same shoe they hike in.

Berserker
01-26-2012, 14:35
I think this is some great advice. I’m not a shoe expert by any means, but I have bought a lot of different pairs of shoes…and I mean a lot so I have a good bit of experience in dealing with the frustrations of not having the right footwear.

The one thing I really liked was the mention of conditioning, and I wanted to expand on that a bit from my point of view. I used to wear boots, and decided to try out the trail runners. I read many threads on WB and other sites where people give advice to jump right into trail runners. This may work for some, but for me it took quite a while to build up the muscles in my feet and ankles to be able to handle the stresses of backpacking in trail runners. So I went through maybe about 6 months of discomfort when I started, but then magically my muscles got built up and viola now I exclusively hike in trail runners (although I’ll break out the boots for deep snow).

That was 2009 when I started using the trail runners, and since then I’ve just kept everything conditioned so I can handle hiking in them. So all that to say don’t underestimate how important conditioning is when considering more minimal types of footwear for hiking.

ekeverette
01-26-2012, 14:46
thanks alot, i may be seeing you if my poor feet take me that far. went to the foot dr. yesterday, she's making me some inserts... but thanks, hope to visit your place.

Cuffs
01-26-2012, 14:58
Says right at the bottom of his post. Outdoor 76 at 76 E Main St. in Franklin, NC. He's introduced himself here before.

Thanks captain obvious. However, when using an iPhone and the tapatalk app, that info is not provided.

Chummin' for Bear
01-26-2012, 16:03
Outdoor76, thanks so much for your post. I could tell by it that you really do want potential thru-hikers to be successful and you are correct to assert that taking care of your feet is of vital importance. For what it's worth, many years ago I lightened my load and was able to convert from boots to shoes and this has worked for me. Not sure it would have worked with a heavy load so what works for me might not work for others. This past weekend, I bet I went to ten different stores and could not find what i was looking for. They carried "trail runners" which tended to be on the heavy side almost like a low cut boot. I was looking more for a high-end running shoe with a tread made for the trail. I was disappointed the Asics, Brooks and even New Balance selection at these stores did not really have an agressive enough tread for the trail. Not asking what would work best for me as I would have to try it on first, but does anyone have a suggested model of shoe in these three brands to try?

pyroman53
01-26-2012, 17:20
a 40yr old can't just join a gym and expect to lift what he did in highschool - if he ever gets to that point again, it could take months of conditioning. Accelerating the process could (and is likely) to cause something worse than ANY benefits you would ever receive with adaptation.

Been there, done that - spent the next 6 months slowly working through the healing process. I hit the gym way too hard and too fast, trying to get in shape for my next hike. I now know to increase my workout slowly over several months, rather than over just a couple weeks. You might get away with it, or you might just do some damage that really sets you back.

Of course, its way better to just stay in shape. I know, but...life happens!

Outdoor76
01-26-2012, 18:20
I was disappointed the Asics, Brooks and even New Balance selection at these stores did not really have an agressive enough tread for the trail. Not asking what would work best for me as I would have to try it on first, but does anyone have a suggested model of shoe in these three brands to try?

This brings up a REALLY good point ...a lot of people base their perception of a shoe from their experience with one or 2 models. Or worse yet, associate the quality of a shoe with how much they spent on them.

We have lots of people come in - ranging from EXTREMELY active, to soccer moms that walk the greenway once a week - and they might say "I've had 2 different pairs of New Balance and my feet still kill me". They take their shoes off and immediately we severe signs of overpronation and the NB's they wore in are as neutral as a shoe can get ...they liked the color, of course. Unfortunately, nobody ever told them the benefits of a posted shoe, regardless of size. Usually, its as simple as getting the biomechanics right. Almost all companies out there make a full range of shoe for every type of gate, stride and usage. Truthfully there's not really anyone that makes a bad shoe - we don't sell Saucony, but I love them and they work great for me. Salomon makes an incredible biomechanic shoe, but volume distribution might not work for some. A good shoe shop will study your foot hard and they should be able to combine that with a good knowledge of what's on their wall ...or even someone elses. Try to stay open minded :)

Tinker
01-26-2012, 18:40
MILLION $$ SHOE ??'s

Uh, it's shoes........no apostrophe necessary. :) ..............

From Mother's finest (apostrophe necessary to show ownership).
droppin some science on y'all..........(the apostrophe here shows the replacement of a letter or letters with said apostrophe).

and a little grammar. ;)

Tinker
01-26-2012, 18:47
Usually, its as simple as getting the biomechanics right.

Nope. Too simple. (That's what many people think, from what I've seen. They want to ask about waterproof/breathable, durability, grip, etc. etc).

Thanks for setting it straight. :)

HiKen2011
01-26-2012, 18:56
Below is a modified response to something we just posted in the VFF thread. We're getting lots of calls with footwear inquiries and questions as NOBO season begins. Each year, the same individual preferences come up and the same problems send people home early. Its our hope that as many thru-hikers as possible take this to heart, we know how important finishing is - and its means so much to us to be a part of you all accomplishing your goals...

Consider this first...Your chances of getting to Maine go up exponentially regardless of how good/light the gear is on your back when your feet are truly taken care of.

There have been endless posts inquiring on general consensus of shoes... We all want light shoes that let us stretch our gate, be more nimble and increase efficiency. Here's the catch ...without seeing your feet and knowing what your background is, save yourself the headache of asking strangers opinions of shoes.

There's basically 2 schools of thought when it comes to caring for your feet ...your feet are like your teeth, eyes...etc - they don't get better as you get older, so take care of them. The flip-side is (with age and physiology on your side), make them stronger through safe conditioning so the muscles can mitigate the load going to the connective tissue. Its the same reason a baseball team only gets 1-2 games a week on their best pitcher. If he overused his arm, the connective tissues in his arm would suffer injuries that take extremely long terms to recover because the muscle loses its ability to stabilize. Your feet are the same way - even MORE complex. A lot of people start too neutral and too light, get 100 miles in to us and decide to make changes. Unfortunately, a plantars issue, achilles tendonitis or an alignment issue has created a problem that REALLY needs weeks or longer with no use to heal. So, with that being said - this is VERY grey area, and getting a shoe plug on a forum can be really bad news despite all other good preparation.

So what about conditioning your feet pre-hike with neutral shoes of barefoot shoes? Another really tough call... a 40yr old can't just join a gym and expect to lift what he did in highschool - if he ever gets to that point again, it could take months of conditioning. Accelerating the process could (and is likely) to cause something worse than ANY benefits you would ever receive with adaptation. We've seen AT hikers in their early-mid 20's in stellar physical condition have jacked-up feet. Everybody's adaptation is very different - and physiology rulesSo there really is no way to give a true shoe recommendation without having your feet looked at.

Generalizing trail runners - this is probably one of the most sketchy invitations for a foot problem. People throw that term ("trail runner") around so liberally, but fail to recognize that a shoe does 2 things. Its 1st job is that its a garment for your foot. It protects from hot/cold, water, sharp things, dirt.... Its SECOND job is the most important - BIOMECHANICS!! I can pull 10 different trail runners that all do different things - but all most people know is that its a "trail runner". A shoe is a tool and you might need a different tool than the next guy to get the job done. You might very well be able to use a trail runner ...but do you need a posting, heel stability, shank ... what about volume distribution?? There are tons of questions. I can show (5) Salomons that all look like trail runners but range in comparable utility, similar to the differences between a Ford F-150 and a Porsche 911. What is best for your foot? You might like the Porsche but NEED the F-150.

Then comes the way we fit - the cornerstone of being in the right shoe. Many fail to recognize that fitting is about 10% finding your size and 90% finding a shoe that fits your foot. A shoe should be reactive to YOUR foot, not the other way around ... most people put a shoe on and feel for the toe and call it a day. If you go somewhere and thats the first thing they do ...or if they ask what size YOU want - WALK AWAY!! They're clueless.

Go get fit :) ..and let a pedorthist or someone pedorthist-trained that knows feet get you in what you need to be. You chances of getting to Maine go up exponentially regardless of how good your gear is on your back. If you have any specific questions, feel free to call us - we'll be happy to do our best to help you out.

Outdoor 76
76 E Main St. - Franklin, NC

Great post and thank you, I may drive to Franklin next time for a great fit! Thanks again.

rocketsocks
01-26-2012, 19:01
Hey,I like and appreciate your post.Often I've found that it's not the shoe that needs breaking in,but the foot to a new shoe,and feel this is normal.:)I don't recall a time when I've put on a shoe(trail runner,boots,sneaker,tinnies or what ever)and not felt some of these Biomechanics slowly taking over,,,:-?but eventually they see it "my way":).Or is it the other way around?:confused:

fiddlehead
01-26-2012, 19:22
Order of importance for me for a shoe: Weight, fit, tread, what's inside?.

I have a nearby 2nd hand shoe store here that probably has 30,000 pair of shoes.

I go through looking for my aprox size and pick them up, throwing the lightest weight ones on a pile.

Then I start trying them on. I want them big, a little bit too big (at least one size) I've lost too many toenails over the years.

Then I look at the tread as I'm on slippery surfaces a lot. the more tread the better (but still lightweight is no. 1 priority)

Then I look inside. If it has a lot of arch support and crap, they get thrown on the "no" pile.

I read the book, (born to run) switched to the least supportive shoes and my knee problems went away.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on this subject.
I know what I do is not for everybody. But it works for me.

rocketsocks
01-26-2012, 19:26
Order of importance for me for a shoe: Weight, fit, tread, what's inside?.

I have a nearby 2nd hand shoe store here that probably has 30,000 pair of shoes.

I go through looking for my aprox size and pick them up, throwing the lightest weight ones on a pile.

Then I start trying them on. I want them big, a little bit too big (at least one size) I've lost too many toenails over the years.

Then I look at the tread as I'm on slippery surfaces a lot. the more tread the better (but still lightweight is no. 1 priority)

Then I look inside. If it has a lot of arch support and crap, they get thrown on the "no" pile.

I read the book, (born to run) switched to the least supportive shoes and my knee problems went away.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on this subject.
I know what I do is not for everybody. But it works for me.I saw that book in the library(book store)and walked on by,think I'll take another look,thanks

MissMagnolia
01-26-2012, 21:41
I saw that book in the library(book store)and walked on by,think I'll take another look,thanks

I've discovered what I think is the most helpful book I've read about how to prepare my feet and body for my thru-hike and beyond. The title may not sound applicable, but the information in here is fabulously helpful. I say this because of the barefoot shoe discussion, which he talks about extensively among many other subjects like building endurance, what to eat and when for endurance events, muscle imbalances, breathing, music therapy for athletes, etc, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Endurance-Training-Racing/dp/1616080655

Of course, he says that if you go minimalist you have to rebuild those leg and foot muscles you've lost by wearing supported shoes. I'm working on that now, with nine weeks until I leave on my thru.

rocketsocks
01-26-2012, 22:06
Miss Magie,While I am not an endurance runner or anything that resembles one LOL,That book looks good ,I will look for and pa ruse as well.Interested in how prosthetics can actually do more harm than good(or so I've heard)Thanks,and good luck on your hike.:)

Outdoor76
01-27-2012, 12:54
Interested in how prosthetics can actually do more harm than good(or so I've heard)Thanks,and good luck on your hike.:)

Assuming you mean orthotics? Lots of people walk into a store that sells "arch" supports and shop off of 2 motives
#1 - If they don't know what they are looking for, they are typically attracted to the inserts with the most support
#2 - they go off shoe size

Here's the problem(s).
#1 - The systems of connective tissue, muscle and bone in your foot act like a bridge. Bridges are designed to support weight from above. Think of the BIG gateway arch in St.Louis. The capstone at the very top has gravity pushing down on it, thus keeping the entire structure stable. If you were to push up on it from below, the entire arch would collapse. The same is true in your foot. Too much arch support applies negative vertical load to the foot system and can cause over supination on the wrong feet. That's one reason why its CRITICAL to be properly fit. I try to be very cautious promoting footwear products, but its one reason we love Sole footbeds. Heat molding an insert allows almost every insert to become conformed to you specific foot. Many other inserts are(as you all know) pick a color or swap-an-arch... This leaves lots of room for improvement in the function of an individual orthotic ...that's just our opinion.

#2 - Picking an insert based on your shoes size = major NO-NO. Remember, this is an ARCH system support. Almost 90% of people have a different arch measurement than the measurement of their foot length. On a Brannock device, that little slide with an arrow on the side is critically important - and few people use it, let alone know what it does. That's essentially tells the length of your arch. More often than not, a hiker that comes in with a size 11 measurement at the toe will have an arch measurement of 12 ..or maybe even a 13. It is VERY common to see men and women off by as much as 2 sizes between arch and foot length measurements. A few other factors (more volume oriented) play into it as well, but try to stay as close to your ARCH size as possible - not your shoe size.

99 times out of 100, a well-fit orthotic will only benefit your hike. You can wear a more neutral shoe - as the insert takes the neutrality out of the shoe. Neutral shoes tend to be lighter too. Dean Karnazes, one of the best LD runners on the planet, just got done running across the country and he runs on OTC Sole inserts. They (a good insert, not just Sole) make your gate more efficient as less energy travel is lost in absorption in pronation - even natural or "healthy" pronation. They make energy travel from your heel to your toe much better.

Again ...fit, fit, fit.

pyroman53
01-27-2012, 13:13
It is VERY common to see men and women off by as much as 2 sizes between arch and foot length measurements. A few other factors (more volume oriented) play into it as well, but try to stay as close to your ARCH size as possible - not your shoe size.
Again ...fit, fit, fit.

So how do you measure this when shopping for an insert? I could see putting my foot into various sizes of insert and seeing which size seems to "fit" my arch (with my heel in the heel cup). And then what? Trim off the excess if its larger than my shoe?

rocketsocks
01-27-2012, 14:10
Assuming you mean orthotics? Lots of people walk into a store that sells "arch" supports and shop off of 2 motives
#1 - If they don't know what they are looking for, they are typically attracted to the inserts with the most support
#2 - they go off shoe size

Here's the problem(s).
#1 - The systems of connective tissue, muscle and bone in your foot act like a bridge. Bridges are designed to support weight from above. Think of the BIG gateway arch in St.Louis. The capstone at the very top has gravity pushing down on it, thus keeping the entire structure stable. If you were to push up on it from below, the entire arch would collapse. The same is true in your foot. Too much arch support applies negative vertical load to the foot system and can cause over supination on the wrong feet. That's one reason why its CRITICAL to be properly fit. I try to be very cautious promoting footwear products, but its one reason we love Sole footbeds. Heat molding an insert allows almost every insert to become conformed to you specific foot. Many other inserts are(as you all know) pick a color or swap-an-arch... This leaves lots of room for improvement in the function of an individual orthotic ...that's just our opinion.

#2 - Picking an insert based on your shoes size = major NO-NO. Remember, this is an ARCH system support. Almost 90% of people have a different arch measurement than the measurement of their foot length. On a Brannock device, that little slide with an arrow on the side is critically important - and few people use it, let alone know what it does. That's essentially tells the length of your arch. More often than not, a hiker that comes in with a size 11 measurement at the toe will have an arch measurement of 12 ..or maybe even a 13. It is VERY common to see men and women off by as much as 2 sizes between arch and foot length measurements. A few other factors (more volume oriented) play into it as well, but try to stay as close to your ARCH size as possible - not your shoe size.

99 times out of 100, a well-fit orthotic will only benefit your hike. You can wear a more neutral shoe - as the insert takes the neutrality out of the shoe. Neutral shoes tend to be lighter too. Dean Karnazes, one of the best LD runners on the planet, just got done running across the country and he runs on OTC Sole inserts. They (a good insert, not just Sole) make your gate more efficient as less energy travel is lost in absorption in pronation - even natural or "healthy" pronation. They make energy travel from your heel to your toe much better.

Again ...fit, fit, fit.Prosthetics ,what a dope:o.:datzOrthotics,thank you.Your post not only cleared up some of the questions I've been asking myself(when I should have asked someone else)but even went beyond.I have custom Orthotics that were formed to my foot via casting,all my(most of) foot problems have disappeared.And I guess what I'm wondering now is "Why the heck didn't my podiatrist just say what you so eloquently said"Thanks,you da Man/Woman.:cool:..and I'm gonna tell all my new friends:)

rocketsocks
01-27-2012, 14:35
YO YO YO,Now listen up!y'all when ya down in NC don't go to the mall,cause there's a guy/girl down there and the answers they have all.Yooo yoo get ya fitted on...yooo yoo get ya fitted on....With ....Outdoor 76:cool:...Thank you:o

Zipper
01-27-2012, 17:40
I wore five fingers (barefoot shoes) almost nonstop for 6 months prior to my thru. It's not a scientific experiment, so I can't say for sure that it made a difference, but I believe that it strengthened my foot muscles and contributed to healthy feet during my hike.

One other thing I would point out because I really didn't realize it - with whatever trail runner type shoe you get, you must, must, must replace them every 400 miles or so. My feet started hurting pretty severely and it was because the internal support in the shoe had broken down. This was not visible at all. Once I got new shoes, the pain went away. Don't wait for the tread to disappear. I'm no expert, but this was my experience.

I also made the mistake of buying another set of the same pair of shoes I'd started with because they were working so well. However, by the time I got them mailed to me, about 1200 miles into my hike (they were pair #3 at that point) my feet had stretched out and the shoes were too small. Funny, they fit me fine now as my feet have "shrunk" back to their original size.

I've also heard that it's best to get a different brand and model every time you replace your shoes. Don't know if there's much truth or value in that, but I ended up doing that, not as much on purpose but just how it worked out and it went well for me.

English Stu
01-29-2012, 06:11
Can running shoes come into the equation? I find suitable trail shoes harder to get in the UK. I run and and have done day walks in those shoes but not done Multi day walks in them.

Outdoor76
01-30-2012, 20:27
Can running shoes come into the equation? I find suitable trail shoes harder to get in the UK. I run and and have done day walks in those shoes but not done Multi day walks in them.

Technically, any shoe can come into the equation - we saw a nobo last year that came in with dress shoes that he cropped the heels on!
This too is a generalization, but more often than not, the only major differences you see in a "running" shoe vs a trail shoes (for running) is a more aggressive outsole and possibly a higher density EVA core throughout the shoe for more stability and taking the pressure of more high pressure points (rocks and roots, vs flat pavement. Some trail shoes also have a shank system that stiffens the midfoot or helps the shoe rebound better. ...again, not always the case, but that's the grey delineation.

Bottom line, the one thing that WILL help your situation is getting as many miles in as you can across the pond on shoes that you do know work for you. As mentioned, so much of your success will be attributed to good foot conditioning. The reason why FIT IS SO CRITICAL is that most people are never able to condition with out causing some sort of an issue because of improper fit and lack of attention to the biomechanic needs for their individual feet. I'm not saying that conditioning is the answer because you can always cause an overuse injury no matter how good in shape you are.
2nd piece of advice, if youre not able to get the conditioning you need before you attempt your hike, TAKE IT EASY for atleast your first 100 miles. The 20+ mile days that you'll be able to attain with stronger feet in Virginia and beyond will make up for it :)

Blissful
01-30-2012, 20:33
This is precisely why you need to go to the people who know shoes and can fit you right. Pays off in the end.

Tinker
02-14-2012, 14:11
Wear what I wear, Hike my hike, blah, blah, blah.

I just typed something to bring the issue to the forefront.

Read the OP.

Thanks. :)