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YerbaJon
03-16-2005, 15:02
Have an MSR tent that is bright orange. Evidence suggests that it is a bear magnet. Can the fabric be painted? Suggestions?

Dances with Mice
03-16-2005, 15:07
Have an MSR tent that is bright orange. Evidence suggests that it is a bear magnet. What evidence? Do share.

bulldog49
03-16-2005, 16:01
Whether it attracts bears or not, orange is a hideous color for any gear imo. Dyeing it, if possible, is probably a better option than paint.

YerbaJon
03-16-2005, 16:32
What evidence? Do share.
Great article from RainMaker: http://trailquest.net/bears.html#colors

YerbaJon
03-16-2005, 16:35
Dyeing it, if possible, is probably a better option than paint.
Anyone have any experience dying 30-denier ripstop? Suggestions? Thank you in advance.

Dances with Mice
03-16-2005, 16:42
Great article from RainMaker: http://trailquest.net/bears.html#colorsHah! So that's why hunters wear orange! It's a lure!

I wouldn't worry about it. But obviously you are, so either....
- buy a new tent
- replace your fly with a dark tarp.
- get some black RIT dye and go for it.

The Cheat
03-16-2005, 17:07
Anyone have any experience dying 30-denier ripstop? Suggestions? Thank you in advance.
No experience.

Found this on the web:
http://www.prochemical.com/directions/Prosperse_ImmersionNylon.htm

NICKTHEGREEK
03-16-2005, 19:36
I don't want to stray too far afield from your question about changing colors on your fly, but would like to add something that may assuage your concern. The fly color would be a big concern in polar bear country, they appear to use eyesight to a large degree in locating meals. Can't quote a printed source, but during debriefing some folks who were doing applied science on the polar ice cap, they related several experiences concerning polar bears using a decreasing radius circle while stalking them over a 4 hour period, never taking its eyes off them. Eastern Bears rely more on ultra-keen sense of smell than eyesight. The odds are most likely higher that the eastern Black Bear will acquire his target (you) by smell rather than sight. Proximity to springs, that half acre raspberry patch, or places where table scraps abound will more likely be attractors. Given limited line of sight in most locales along the AT also would lessen the chances for the bear being alerted. Bears are very clever but I don't believe that they will draw any parallels between your yellow or orange tent fly and the local McDonalds Golden Arches. Worst case to be safe, practice safe bear country practices and set up your bear restaurant, er, I mean tent in the twilight.

stupe
03-16-2005, 20:13
Don't hot bath dye it or you will ruin the waterproof/water resistant quality. Even if you paint something on it you will create a color even more horrible than orange.
More horrible than orange!

The Hammocker
03-16-2005, 21:02
Don't hot bath dye it or you will ruin the waterproof/water resistant quality. Even if you paint something on it you will create a color even more horrible than orange.
More horrible than orange!

did you say more horrible than orange?:eek: Thats why I use hammocks, the tarps cover the whole thing

rdw440
03-16-2005, 22:22
Have an MSR tent that is bright orange. Evidence suggests that it is a bear magnet. Can the fabric be painted? Suggestions?
I once had a nylon pack that was bright orange. I used RIT dye, olive green I think. Turned it a nice dark brown color.

The Hammocker
03-17-2005, 20:51
olive green dye turned it brown. Hmm... I think thats false advertising

blytz
03-17-2005, 21:02
olive green dye turned it brown. Hmm... I think thats false advertising
I think RIT has some clause saying that the color is only that color when dying white articles.

art to linda
03-17-2005, 22:29
any time you dye one color over another you will get a color that is a mix of the 2 colors... green plus orange = brown. To get a true color you must start with a white base fabric. I would check with the maker of the tent to see if they had any ideas on changing the color. Some fabrics do not take well to dye, and the dye just may damage the waterproofing. Also, any coating that was sprayed or brushed on would more then likely just lay on the surface of the fabric and start to flake/crack from stuffing or folding and could cause problems by having fine particals of whatever you use getting into everything (clothes, food, and the air you breath while sleeping).

Since my pack is orange & black, does this mean I'm a walking bear snack or just a Halloween treat? ;)

flyfisher
03-18-2005, 06:50
Great article from RainMaker: http://trailquest.net/bears.html#colors
Nice article. I appreciated your posting the link.

Panzer1
03-18-2005, 11:45
Its called color pollution!!

Panzer

Jaybird
03-18-2005, 12:04
Have an MSR tent that is bright orange. Evidence suggests that it is a bear magnet. Can the fabric be painted? Suggestions?



donno about Bears...but, loads of BULLS charge them, i hear....hehehehehe :p



see ya'll out there APR 28-May 20 HOT SPRINGS,NC to PEARISBURG,VA

tlbj6142
03-18-2005, 12:11
If you plan to (or have to) stay in designated campsites, the color issue won't be a problem. As the bears already know you'll be there before you even arrive.

hikerjohnd
03-18-2005, 12:14
Have an MSR tent that is bright orange. Evidence suggests that it is a bear magnet. Can the fabric be painted? Suggestions?
Actually, bears are colorblind so your tent color would not be an issue. This link (http://www.northsuperior.ca/blackbeartips.htm) takes you to one article discussing it, but I remember discussing it in a biology class... They do not have poor eyesight, that is a misconception. Their eyesite is comparable to humans.

YerbaJon
03-21-2005, 15:53
Actually, bears are colorblind so your tent color would not be an issue. .
The article you link to is based on old information.


Gordon M. Burghardt, PhD, a professor in the departments of psychology, ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Tennessee has the following to say (full article: (http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/burghardt.html):


excerpts:
Burghardt also hopes to bring comparative psychology research to park rangers and others who work directly with wild animals--something he began doing in 1968. At that time, black bears in the Great Smoky Mountain National Park had become a nuisance, blocking traffic and begging for handouts from visitors. Rangers considered responding by wielding bats, but a study by Burghardt and his colleagues quickly showed why this tactic would not work.

"Previously people thought that bears were colorblind, like dogs," says Burghardt. "But we found that they have excellent visual acuity and color vision--which is useful for finding ripe berries in bushes."

As a result, a black bear can easily distinguish between a green-uniformed ranger and a tourist, the researchers found. The bears quickly learned to avoid rangers with bats and continued to harass picnicking visitors, Burghardt reported to the park service.

The Hammocker
03-23-2005, 20:33
we can learn alot from Yogi the bear (lol):D

YerbaJon
03-24-2005, 11:46
First off let me thank Dupe and rdw440 for their notes/comments: they proved a large part of my final decision on how to dye the tent.

Now the news: I have successfully dyed the eyesore (MSR Missing Link) to a beautifull brown. No damage appears to have been done to the nylon or to the silicon coating. The following are some notes about my method and notes from MSR.

1) I did NOT use the hot bath/boil method of dying as I am sure that would have ruined the silicon on the tent (thanks Dupe). Instead, I just used some warm tap water and let it soak for more than the 30-60 minutes recommened from RIT Dyes. I soaked it for 2 hours. This bad boy went from questionable orange to a beautiful shade of brown that looks like the color of a tree trunk. Can you say stealth-camping?

2) MSR informed me that this experiment would void my warranty; yet they were extremely helpful and extremely interested in the posts here about their orange tent color being a questionable choice. They took notes about this website and said they would look into the issue of their tent colors for the future.

3) MSR informed me that if i did damage the tent silicon coating, then I could simply add it back onto the tent by applying silicon with a sponge. In the back of my mind I recall a post on Whiteblaze with the great suggestion of using Thompsons WaterSeal (deck) as a silicon replacement. I did not discuss this with MSR, but it was in the back of my mind as a possible choice if the silicon were ever compromised.

4) It appears that the silicon was not compromised as it appears that maybe the silicon coating was only on the outside of the tent and on the floor of the tent on the inside/outside. I say this because the dye appeared to come in from the inside of the tent and work its way to the outside. The floor (red) never changed colors. All seam sealed white zippers remained white. All nylon chords remained black/red. Magically, the only thing that dyed for me was the ugly orange.

5) orange + green do indeed make brown!

I carry this MSR Missing Link (3 lb large tarp like tent for 2 people) when I hike with my wife. We are preparing for a 6 month slack hike on the AT and are feeling much better about not having the biggest eye-sore (bulldog49 called it hideous) on the trail . Thank you for all your help.

ToeJam
03-24-2005, 16:14
Thanks, YerbaJon! We bought the Missing Link tent for our next run out, seemed the best mix of all factors for us (space vs. weight etc), but YEAH, that orange! I think I wanna try your method out if I can convince the man, thanks for sharing!

P.S. What did you do it in? The washing machine tub or the bathtub or what?

YerbaJon
03-24-2005, 19:57
I used 2 bottles (liquid) of RIT dye: color Dark Green; 2 hour soak, every 15 minutes or so I stired it up using the end of a broom handle. I will tell you that you would be wise to enter it into the tub slowly, being careful to remove the air bubbles as I fought the air bubbles during much of the process. Still, it did not ruin the outcome.
I used a giant tupperware bin (deep storage bin) and filled it with hot/warm water from the kitchen sink, not boiling. I decided against using an aggresive washing machine. Along these lines I was carefull not to stir it aggressively and risk ruining the mesh or any other part. I had a pair of nice rubber gloves (heavy duty dishwashing gloves) which allowed me to "flip it around" in the tub.
My wife and I are heading out for a couple days on the trail and I will take some pictures of the tent for you and post them here, which may help you convince the man that it is possible: seeing is part of believing. I will also let you know if we have any increased problems with condensation. I hope it rains!

Doctari
03-25-2005, 00:35
Did you set the tent up & simulate rain with a hose?

Personally, I would rather know BEFORE the trip if the tent leaked, or the color ran :datz

Mountain Hippie
03-25-2005, 01:11
I have toyed with the idea of buying a missing link but I am not really impressed by the orange color. I was wondering if anyone knows why MSR has chosen to use such a bright color for some of their products? I mean it seems like they should offer a more passive color option for those of us that do not wish to glow in the dark. :sun
I agree with DOCTARI it would be best to verify the water resistance of the tent during the day under controlled circumstances. Good Luck :D

Pencil Pusher
03-25-2005, 01:20
Bright tents and gear are value-added. How can you not appreciate the fact that such gear helps search and rescue locate you or your remains? Oh and hey, red looks good in photos too.

Mountain Hippie
03-25-2005, 01:39
Bright tents and gear are value-added. How can you not appreciate the fact that such gear helps search and rescue locate you or your remains? Oh and hey, red looks good in photos too.
I really cannot argue with that. Assuring that my dead carcass is removed promptly to make room for more dead carcasses is #2 on my list of priorities. #1 being getting my live carcass there in the first place.

Ramble~On
03-25-2005, 04:45
I like this thread already.

Dye your gear natural colors.
I've never understood some gear companies only offering stuff in bright colors.
I looked at the MSR stuff and was happy when they came out with tents.
BUT.....no way would I want a tent that can be seen from outter space.
There's some pretty kick-butt sleeping bags out there and they are still out there because the only colors they come in are "out there" and I wouldn't buy them if they were free.
Part of Leave No Trace to me means that you shouldn't be seen 10 miles away.
To each their own....it's my preference.
All the gear companies out there that only offer bright colored stuff don't get my money.
Dye it ? Hmmmmm.
Here's a better idea....why don't they make their stuff in earthen colors to begin with.......greens, browns....natural "blend in" colors.
I'm not "MR. STEALTH GUY" and I would think that camo gear is as silly looking as electric, neon orange tents.
I like the Dye it idea. I'm not too crazy about the color of one of my packs and am gonna give the dye a try.

bulldog49
03-25-2005, 10:05
I'm one who won't buy gear if it's brightly colored, no matter how well made or functional it may be. Brown, green, blue and black are the only colors I will consider. I'm in the market for a new tent and like everything about the MSR Hubba but the orange fly and bright red floor. I want to blend in with my surroundings, not stick out like a sore thumb.

I think gear companies don't understand the importance of the colors they choose. Bright colors may be fine for high mountaineering, but not for backpackers.

tlbj6142
03-25-2005, 10:14
Bright colors may be fine for high mountaineering, but not for backpackers.Why not? There is plenty of orange, yellow and red already in the woods (especially in the fall).

If you are truely 200+ feet away from the trail, no one is going see you regardless of the color. If you are closer, you'll be seen as a tent's silhouette isn't exactly "natural".

bulldog49
03-25-2005, 10:44
It's not about being "invisible", it's a matter of aesthetics, which admittedly is an individual thing. The colors I mentioned, to my eye, are more pleasing and soothing and tend to blend well with the environment I'm in. Orange and red aren't what I call soothing colors.

hikerjohnd
03-25-2005, 10:52
Bright colors may be fine for high mountaineering...
I share your appreciation for subdued colors! I settled for a light gray tent but would never shell out $ for neon signs in the wilderness.

I am curious - why would bright colors be fine for high mountaineering? Thanks! :confused:

bulldog49
03-25-2005, 11:53
I believe it's to aid in search and rescue and seems to be traditional for that activity. It still would not be my choice, I'm just saying that every mountaineering tent you see is brightly colored. But why use the same color for tents designed for an entirely different purpose?

tlbj6142
03-25-2005, 12:12
It's not about being "invisible", it's a matter of aesthetics, which admittedly is an individual thing. OK, that I can understand.

YerbaJon
03-28-2005, 01:20
2 images to see:
a) stake bag not dyed and used here for comparison purposes.
http://laesquinadelasflores.com/images/new_vs_old.jpg
b) seams remained white, chords kept their color, and tent floor remained red.
http://laesquinadelasflores.com/images/full_view_new_vs_old.jpg

Last night on A.T. near Neels Gap (GA) was brutal. Severe thunderstorm rolled in and wind gusts were brutal. This morning fog was abundant and rain/drizzle continued. Up till now I have spent about 10 nights in this tent. I have never found this single wall tent to be "moisture proof" as condensation is a constant problem: every night in the past that it has rained (about 7 of them in this tent: my wife and I attract rain), there has been condensation on the inside of the tent. It continued to be a problem last night. It does not appear that the dye process improved this problem. Did it make it worse? Did I destroy the tents waterproof? Here is my honest assessment; I hope that this community can contribute to this analysis.

1) MSR suggested I test the waterproof by running it under water. I did this in the sink for a few minutes with the tent bag (the first item I dyed) and got a puddle of water that sat on the tent bag and none of it penetrated the tent.

2) This morning the tent vesitibule had water on top of it in puddles that continued to run down the vestibule, yet underneath the puddles (the underside of the vestibule) was dry and without condensation.

3) Packs were shoved into the corner of the tent and were touching the side of the tent. No water came through the tent where the packs were touching, so this appeared to be good.

4) The rest of the tent walls were wet with condensation. At least I believe it was condensation. Or, was this a failure of the tent silicone and actually water that was coming through the nylon?

5) The floor had no leaks and was dry underneath sleeping pads/space blanket.

I made a mistake in location/positioning of the tent that created a serious problem which prevents me from giving an accurate assessment. We chose the direction to face the tent based on some roots at the tent site, not wind direction. As we drifted off to sleep the storm/winds surfaced and we found that our tent opening was facing directly into the powerful winds. I would have been wise to have the tent facing the other direction, yet I did not mind the risk as I enjoyed the chance to stress test the tent on our last night out.
During the night one of the stakes holding down the vestibule gave slightly, thus the tent flapped dramatically with the winds. Further, the wind whipped under the vestibule and may have been sending water into the top mesh that is provided for ventilation (trees fell in the near distance from the powerful gusts). Condensation, or perhaphs water that came through the nylon (#4 above) was flapped around: my wifes side of the joined bags remained fine, while some of my bag got wet on the outside; I was near the front door while she was at the back. This event ruined my ability to determine for sure if I have compromised the tents waterproof coating. To be honest, I am amazed the tent held up and did not fully rip out the stakes.

I got slightly wet in this tent during rain before I dyed the tent. After dying it the story has not changed. Does anyone own a single wall tent that avoids all condensation? Anyone have any experience with their MSR Missling Link under similar conditions? I will test again within 3 weeks before my wife and I begin our 6 month hike. #1, #2, #3, and #5 above suggest that I did no damage. But I can not be definative until I hear some responses and some more suggested testing methods.

The Hammocker
03-28-2005, 19:42
I got a new sleeping bag that is orange, blue, and a tiny bit of tan. Just out of curiosity could I dye that? Not to mention the insulation could be dameged.

Thoughts?


Comments?

ToeJam
03-30-2005, 08:23
YerbaJon,

Thanks for sharing all that info! My store didnt carry dark green in the big bottle so I got 3 boxes instead. Plan to try it today I think. The pics were helpful.

I do see where you are a little unsure because of the specifics of the night, but it does seem to me as well that it stayed waterproof after the dyeing process.

Gotta get it dyed so we can get it outside and figure out how to set it up - we leave for our 8 day section hike on the 14th so we gotta get moving! Any tips on this tent appreciated...

ToeJam
04-05-2005, 14:05
My tent is in the tub dying right now, but wanted to share this as I thought of it. Possibly I found out about it here, but I think not. I think I found it by looking and reading up for more reviews on the Missing Link.

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Shelters/Tents/MSR%20Missing%20Link/Andrew%20Priest/Long%20Term%20Report/

A ways down there is a blurb about him calling MSR and getting a free tube of SIlNet, apprently there is a known possible problem on one of the seams where 3 pieces come together in the back? I called and they also sent me one - gonna do it just for good measure, better safe than sorry. Possibly this came into play with your experiment as well, just to add ANOTHER unknown lol!

I'll post more on my results later. Thanks again for sharing and being adventurous!

The Hammocker
04-05-2005, 20:43
any thoughts on my sleeping bag post ?

hikerjohnd
04-05-2005, 20:53
any thoughts on my sleeping bag post ?
Have you contacted the manufacturer to see what they recommend? Beyond that, you won't really know until you try!

The Hammocker
04-07-2005, 19:11
I'll try the manufactuer. Thanks for the advice.

Che
04-28-2005, 13:27
Thanks for this great post. I dyed my MSR Missing Link. Seeing no problems with it so far. Going section hiking this Saturday (1500 miles). Wife and I are heading out together. Hope to bumb into some of you on the trail. Got many great ideas from this site about gear, hypothermia, yerba mate, trail culture, and hints of the hiking trade. I am anxious to get out there. Thanks again.

The Hammocker
05-16-2005, 19:40
the manufactuer said they don't know and that I should buy this other model that cost twice as much becuse its the only one in black. wow sounds like they just want my money big suprise (LOL)

gungho
02-03-2008, 01:22
the manufactuer said they don't know and that I should buy this other model that cost twice as much becuse its the only one in black. wow sounds like they just want my money big suprise (LOL)
I thought bears were color blind:-?

kytrailman
02-03-2008, 12:52
just buy some silnylon and sew a new one using the old as a pattern. you can find it for as little as 2 bucks a yard if you search. jsut look for the seconds which are usually jsut cosmetic flaws.

Monkeyboy
02-06-2008, 11:31
Don't do anything to your tent........smear everyone else's with bacon grease.

dessertrat
02-06-2008, 12:57
They say that bears are the smartest mammal in North America, and that they might be smarter than chimpanzees, but lack the opposable thumbs to take full advantage of it. And they also say that bears have vision, in color, generally comparable to that of humans.

Of course that doesn't mean every bear can see well-- just like humans, some of them might be quite nearsighted, with no Walmart vision center nearby.

Edit: before some smarty notices, when I say "smartest mammal" I do not include people-- I mean animals other than people. But then I've met some people who I think some bears might be smarter than.

jesse
02-06-2008, 13:06
The fly color would be a big concern in polar bear country,

According to algore: polar bears will be in Georgia in 2 years.