Avoiding condensation in tent

[jazzmessenger8]

Sorry if this thread has been posted before- my searches on here never seems to provide anything relevant. What precautions do you guys take to avoid condensation gathering in your tents overnight, regarding location, orientation etc. below tree line in summer? And what do you do to deal with the condensation if it does build up?
Thanks for any answers

[Slo-go'en]

Don't tent in grassy areas, open areas, the tops of blads - never camp above tree line. It might look great when you set up, but you never know when a wicked storm will blow in over night or a cloud decend. It's also illegal in many areas, like NH.

Also avoid camping near swampy areas, ponds or lakes.

Tent under trees and on dirt when ever possible. Learn to set up your tent so it has proper ventilation.

Once you do have condensation, you can wipe some of it off with a camp towel, shake it off or take the tent out to dry in the sun during a break - assuming the sun does come out!

[Spokes]

This article (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eastonmountainproducts.com%2F pdf%2Fcondensation-article.pdf&ei=3NgiT9m6LKH10gHtnqH-CA&usg=AFQjCNHRzwhDzxuQljGMYcSHZj6XD-mBdQ&sig2=ovA8Foecm0FunpZjMa7JWg) (in pdf format and you'll be prompted to open the file in a new window) may be helpful to you. It focuses on single wall tents but the tips carry over.

Cheers!

[moof53]

Just a little info. If you camp under trees be sure to look up. The branches above are called "Widow Makers" and have been known to fall on sleeping hikers.

I believe it is in the "Gallery" area of the site where there is a picture of a guy next to his tent where a huge tree limb had fallen and crushed one side of his tent. He had just woke and sat up when the limb hit right where his head had been. He was a real lucky guy.

Just last week a Park Ranger in Yosemite was killed when a very large limb broke during some winds and crushed the tent cabin he was sleeping in.

It can happen so always look up.

[HiKen2011]

Just a little info. If you camp under trees be sure to look up. The branches above are called "Widow Makers" and have been known to fall on sleeping hikers.

I believe it is in the "Gallery" area of the site where there is a picture of a guy next to his tent where a huge tree limb had fallen and crushed one side of his tent. He had just woke and sat up when the limb hit right where his head had been. He was a real lucky guy.

Just last week a Park Ranger in Yosemite was killed when a very large limb broke during some winds and crushed the tent cabin he was sleeping in.

It can happen so always look up.

Great info, also single wall tent, condensation WILL be an issue regardless of where you pitch, most of the time.

[Sly]

All good info, which adhered to should lower condensation to a manageable level where it can be wiped down with a bandana

[Jim Adams]

use a double wall tent...problem solved.

geek

[Wise Old Owl]

Come on Jim you can do better than that... take a look a Spokes Article and you will see what a professional find he has. (Same Thread)

[Jim Adams]

I was serious!...I tried a single wall tarptent...will never go back...too much work!

geek

[Panzer1]

I lay in my tent looking up at the condensation all the time.

Panzer

[Tipi Walter]

Don't tent in grassy areas, open areas, the tops of blads - never camp above tree line. It might look great when you set up, but you never know when a wicked storm will blow in over night or a cloud decend. It's also illegal in many areas, like NH.

Also avoid camping near swampy areas, ponds or lakes.

Tent under trees and on dirt when ever possible. Learn to set up your tent so it has proper ventilation.

Once you do have condensation, you can wipe some of it off with a camp towel, shake it off or take the tent out to dry in the sun during a break - assuming the sun does come out!

This advice is certainly sketchy and unrealistic for real-world backpacking. If someone backpacks 180-200 days a year for 10 or 20 years he'll end up with thousands of nights out and many of them will be in grassy areas, in open areas and on the tops of balds. On my last 18 day January trip I spent many of them atop open balds and got caught in a rainfall of 153 hours---a personal record. Condensation is just a plain fact of life when living out of a tent and it's due mostly to air temps and humidity. Plus, packing up a soaked tent for a week doesn't help. Sure, I swab out the inner tent routinely and this helps to pull some water out.

There should be little or no concern to site placement, and a good four season tent will work in most situations. When conditions turn south go into your hunker mode with a "last stand" mentality---and ride it out. You may have to spend 7 days at the same place in a 0F blizzard but so what?

[Franco]

How to avoid condensation

Use a double wall tent ...problem solved.

Brilliant.
Yes, to avoid bad news happening , stop watching TV...


At best you can minimise condensation, not eliminate it. Condensation happens regardless if you are in a tent or not.
Inside a double wall tent (with a water resistant fabric inner) you may not be aware of condensation but it will still be there.
What then happens is that if you don't air or dry the underside of the fly in the morning you will not only carry that condensation with you but transfer that to the inner.
Now if you have a PU coated fly , it will eventualy become sticky and it will be the end of it.
If you have a mesh inner and don't have a fabric section at the top as some have, it can drip on you.
When that happens you may wish to have a single wall tent so that you can wipe that condensation off rather than dripping on you.
BTW, a wet inner will of course increase the humidity level inside and that will make you feel colder..
So not all that simple....
Franco

[Wise Old Owl]

Oh? just leave the flap of the door open, It can be that simple. My thought is that the vents are too small on some... On one bivy they vented all the way down one side. looked like it would work.

[jazzmessenger8]

Thank you all for the helpful comments. Spokes, thank you for the great pdf.

[Tenderheart]

Oh? just leave the flap of the door open, It can be that simple. My thought is that the vents are too small on some... On one bivy they vented all the way down one side. looked like it would work.

Have you actually done any hiking?????

[Franco]

I must remember to open my car doors so that it does not get wet with condensation when parked overnight.
Franco

[jakedatc]

Have you actually done any hiking?????

what is wrong with leaving the outer flap open? If it's not raining then ventilation is your best bet. you still have the inner mesh to keep bugs out.

Wise Owl... the TT Contrail I have (and probably others) have full mesh door and 6-8" of mesh along the entire length then a mesh "foot panel"

I do think it's funny that people think double wall tents eliminate condensation when in reality it just has a mesh layer between you and the drops. at some point you will have to shake your tent off and dry things out.

[jakedatc]

I must remember to open my car doors so that it does not get wet with condensation when parked overnight.
Franco

heey, I sleep in my Element plenty and keep the sunroof and side windows open to do just that :)

[Franco]

Mine is a Nissan. Must be the brand...
Nothing wrong with the inside, is the outside that gets wet, I was just hoping that opening the doors would solve the problem.
Franco

[Wise Old Owl]

Have you actually done any hiking?????

What - how would you feel if I call you ignorant too... everyone here hikes.... Now I know you didn't intend to do that.... never mind..eat a mouse instead.


what is wrong with leaving the outer flap open? If it's not raining then ventilation is your best bet. you still have the inner mesh to keep bugs out.

Wise Owl... the TT Contrail I have (and probably others) have full mesh door and 6-8" of mesh along the entire length then a mesh "foot panel"

I do think it's funny that people think double wall tents eliminate condensation when in reality it just has a mesh layer between you and the drops. at some point you will have to shake your tent off and dry things out.

Yes and you nailed it.... in ANCIENT TIMES it was two layers of fabric, not mesh --- Folks get upset about that. today its a mesh and tarp; except mountaineering.... Who would have thought that climbing mountains with an Andre Jamlet overseas would skew your thinking?

[lemon b]

This here has to do with the weather. I just open up the tent. If it is really cold everything is frozen anyway,

[rocketsocks]

Right you are Lemon b,It is nothing more than weather.I'd like to say that another way.No thing more than weather,a small little micro climate,our very own little micro climate that we get to experiment with,no thing more than that.Open the flap/close the flap /and wipe tent down when needed....No Thing to it. Wise Old Owl, has got it right..often right and seldom wrong.

[Tinker]

I've read so many questions like this that I didn't read the responses to this point.

Has anyone mentioned covering the bare dirt (or whatever) floor in the vestibule with plastic sheeting? A lot of moisture comes up from the ground, more if there is grass or other plant material than if it is bare mineral dirt or sand. This moisture can add to your breath and insensible perspiration and condense on the underside of your fly.

[Franco]

yes, I have tested that many times.
I happen to set up tents in my backyard very often.
Because they are set up on grass at times even when there is no visible moisture on my garden furniture and the grass is relatively dry in the morning , tents that have a large vestibule will be wet under the fly.
Completely covering the exposed area under the fly overcomes that.
Note that tents that have a proportionally large vestibule will generally have more comments about condensation.
BTW, you cannot get rid of condensation by opening a door or with a larger vent if there is no air movement (wind..) or temperature differential. (chimney effect)
For an effective "chimney/stak effect " a smaller vent works better, same reason why a chimney can't be all that large.
Franco

[Wil]

you cannot get rid of condensation by opening a door or with a larger vent if there is no air movement (wind..) or temperature differential. (chimney effect)
For an effective "chimney/stak effect " a smaller vent works better, same reason why a chimney can't be all that large.Jack Stephenson explained that to me about 20 years ago. It was surprising to me at the time, but it makes a lot of sense.

[Jim Adams]

Sure double wall tents have condensation but not near as much as single wall tents because of the airflow between the two layers. Just pull the fly off immediately in the morning, shake it off and let it dry as you take down camp and eat. On high humidity mornings you may have to pack a wet fly but not a wet tent....and making sure that your tent is "breathing" practically eliminates condensation on double wall tents....yes, venting works.

geek

[rocketsocks]

yes, I have tested that many times.
I happen to set up tents in my backyard very often.
Because they are set up on grass at times even when there is no visible moisture on my garden furniture and the grass is relatively dry in the morning , tents that have a large vestibule will be wet under the fly.
Completely covering the exposed area under the fly overcomes that.
Note that tents that have a proportionally large vestibule will generally have more comments about condensation.
BTW, you cannot get rid of condensation by opening a door or with a larger vent if there is no air movement (wind..) or temperature differential. (chimney effect)
For an effective "chimney/stack effect " a smaller vent works better, same reason why a chimney can't be all that large.
FrancoFranco,most of us cant bring a chimney with us to install on our tents to take advantage of that effect,or can we?A chimney could be fashioned from maybe one of those insta fill things (for blowing up sleep pads) and guy it out to say a over hanging branch.Having worked in large boiler rooms and power houses,this chimney effect does in fact work on temperature difference you pointed out,but more over the difference in density(which is that whole temp over pressure divided by ect.ect or something like that)..While achieving a differential temp,the higher you go the greater the differnce.In the conditions we find out there,and all things being ambient for the most part,it is more likely that a air exchange would be the best bet as you pointed out,and since most folks might not understand the science involved,simply opening opposing flaps might be the first step in experimenting to achieve this air exchange,and swabbing the walls might be thought of as turning on the condensation pumps.It's a pretty cool thing that's going on there!I am going to experiment with that insta flow chimney effect and maybe some R&D feel free to incorporate into your tent....good muse! going on here at White Blaze again.What about locating flaps strategically,to take advantage of the venturi effect (lower pressure pulling on a body,i'd have to get out the old books)could be interesting.Self swabbing walls,where to stop?Okay,I'm done ...for now.One more,:-?solar panel with battery back up,a small fan for draft induction on those venturi's:)

[Chaco Taco]

Learn to deal with condensation. Get a sham wow type cloth. You will have more condensation in single walls. Just the way it is. Its just a fact of life on the trail and in the climate on the trail.

[Rocketman]

For an effective "chimney/stak effect " a smaller vent works better, same reason why a chimney can't be all that large.
Franco

I'm embarrassed that I mentally wrote off small vents as a foolish mistaken approach in the past.

[jakedatc]

Sure double wall tents have condensation but not near as much as single wall tents because of the airflow between the two layers. Just pull the fly off immediately in the morning, shake it off and let it dry as you take down camp and eat. On high humidity mornings you may have to pack a wet fly but not a wet tent....and making sure that your tent is "breathing" practically eliminates condensation on double wall tents....yes, venting works.

geek

people seem askeered of things they have never used...

What is the difference between airflow between a piece of mesh and air flow directly on the outer surface?

the whole perimeter of my TT is mesh that provides the same air ventilation as the mesh inside layered to a solid outside. Only I can wipe the inside of my tent down before getting up. and at 2lb i'm carrying less. Last time i used it temps got down to low 30s and had zero condensation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/1024011552.jpg?t=1319492870

[jakedatc]

Franco,most of us cant bring a chimney with us to install on our tents to take advantage of that effect,or can we?A chimney could be fashioned from maybe one of those insta fill things (for blowing up sleep pads) and guy it out to say a over hanging branch.Having worked in large boiler rooms and power houses,this chimney effect does in fact work on temperature difference you pointed out,but more over the difference in density(which is that whole temp over pressure divided by ect.ect or something like that)..While achieving a differential temp,the higher you go the greater the differnce.In the conditions we find out there,and all things being ambient for the most part,it is more likely that a air exchange would be the best bet as you pointed out,and since most folks might not understand the science involved,simply opening opposing flaps might be the first step in experimenting to achieve this air exchange,and swabbing the walls might be thought of as turning on the condensation pumps.It's a pretty cool thing that's going on there!I am going to experiment with that insta flow chimney effect and maybe some R&D feel free to incorporate into your tent....good muse! going on here at White Blaze again.What about locating flaps strategically,to take advantage of the venturi effect (lower pressure pulling on a body,i'd have to get out the old books)could be interesting.Self swabbing walls,where to stop?Okay,I'm done ...for now.One more,:-?solar panel with battery back up,a small fan for draft induction on those venturi's:)

LOL chimney EFFECT not actual chimney. Look at the pic of my TT contrail above and see the small vent over the "head" area.

[Jim Adams]

Again, I have used single wall tents...I don't like them. My double wall keeps me and my gear drier because if the condensation is heavy, it will run down the underside of my fly and drip to the ground. It also does not "mist" in heavy rain, and yes, it makes less condensation due to the air flow between the mesh and the fly. BTW, I don't mind the extra 1 pound of my tent due to the convience of it.geek

[Sly]

use a double wall tent...problem solved.

geek

I have a better one. Stay in shelter!

[daddytwosticks]

Again, I have used single wall tents...I don't like them. My double wall keeps me and my gear drier because if the condensation is heavy, it will run down the underside of my fly and drip to the ground. It also does not "mist" in heavy rain, and yes, it makes less condensation due to the air flow between the mesh and the fly. BTW, I don't mind the extra 1 pound of my tent due to the convience of it.geek Try a Lightheart Solo. Hybrid double-wall silnylon tent. Less than 2 pounds. :)

[Jim Adams]

Try a Lightheart Solo. Hybrid double-wall silnylon tent. Less than 2 pounds. :)

if its not free standing, I'm not interested, but thanks.

geek

[Chaco Taco]

if its not free standing, I'm not interested, but thanks.

geek
Yea if you are going to thru, make sure you have something that can be freestanding esp up north, tent platforms. The good thing about my tarp tent is that I can slide poles between the corners. Most nights I have been out I carried either my Tarptent or Hubba Hubba. Love the Double Hubba with the wife, we split it up and its light. Great tent for the both of us. When I solo, I carry my Tarptent. In both, I have to deal with condensation. Just a fact of life. When we were in Vermont we slept in a field and the outside was a drenched. Dry as a bone on our stuff but the wall of the tent had water on it. Naturally its going to do better when we are in the woods and there is less grass and more tree cover. When I have used my Tarptent, very little condensation in the woods. If it rains, moisture from the humidity in the air and me sitting in it breathing, condensation is going to happen. I like this tent because of the vents up top. But when i sleep I usually won't have to worry about condensation because the vestibule sits up.

[rocketsocks]

LOL chimney EFFECT not actual chimney. Look at the pic of my TT contrail above and see the small vent over the "head" area.The contrail is on my "Wish List",and when ready to buy tent,pretty sure that'll be the one.Thanks for posting pic.:)

[Tinker]

I have a better one. Stay in shelter!

Oh, the terror of condensation (and sweat, rain, mud, etc.)!

Maybe we should all huddle at home near the thermostat. :D

Re: Freestanding - If you're a nobo, and there aren't many platforms down south (maybe there are, but the White Mts. get all the press re: platforms) -

Why carry a tent that can't help but be at least a) A pound heavier than a non-freestanding tent of the same size, or

b) So flimsy due to lack of pole support that it needs 10 stakes in a good wind (with the extra line, tangles, etc)....

just to haul that extra weight from Georgia to New Hampshire?

Getting a tent with fewer poles and minimal staking makes more sense. You can carry a few feet of extra line to tie your tent off to bushes around the tent platforms in NH, and you probably won't need that until you get there.

I'd like to see more double hooped tents with one stake at each end.

The tent I would use (as a solo hiker) would be the Tarptent Moment. One pole and two stakes and it's up. Can take moderate winds from any angle because it's aerodynamically designed. A second hoop would make it sturdier, but heavier by a pound.

Marmot makes a double hoop tent for two people, which sets up with the tent hanging from the fly. Here:http://www.backcountry.com/marmot-widi-2-person-3-season-tent This is a prime example of how features can add up to the weight of a tent, but if you want solid, here it is (at less money than a Hilleberg - my favorite tent maker).

..............Off and running..........:o

[JAK]

You can reduce condensations, and deal with condensation, but you can't always prevent it.
1. Reduce sources of moisture. (ground, clothing, sweating, heavy breathing, cooking)
2. Ventilate to better equalize moisture inside and outside.
3. Shelter from open sky, which increases condensation by cooling tent fabric.
4. Heat tent material from within, with bare skin if summer, and/or candle if safe.
5. Remove visible condensation with camp towel. Hang towel outside or bag it.

You can pretty much assume 100% relative humidity at night, most nights, so its a matter of trying to keep the inside of the tent a little warmer than outside, while adding as little extra moisture as possible, and this is the tricky part, doing what you can to try and keep the tent wall not much colder than the inside, and outside, of your tent. Yeah it can even be colder than the outside if exposed to a clear night sky.

[Tinker]

Jack Stephenson explained that to me about 20 years ago. It was surprising to me at the time, but it makes a lot of sense.

A lot of people here don't know Jack. (Stephenson).

Information on condensation, vapor barriers, etc. (Jack is a retired aerospace engineer who first made a down air mat back in 1958). www.warmlite.com (http://www.warmlite.com)

[jakedatc]

Agree Tinker. Plus i don't think I would have a problem setting my Contrail up on a platform. guy lines don't need to be staked into the ground to work. can make "deadman" anchors out of sticks and put between the boards etc saying you NEED free standing for a platform is plain uncreative.

what else do free standing tent poles do? When you're walking all day and when you sleep in a shelter... yep nada

[Jim Adams]

I don't carry free standing tents because of platforms. I carry them because they are quick to set up and very secure in bad weather. I had a HS tarptent and if I wanted a secure shelter, I got no sleep...always fiddling with the lines to keep it tight and not sagging or flapping, and always dealing with condensation. HS himself couldn't keep my tent tight at the kickoff. I found that it was nothing but alot of work and no, the pound that it saved wasn't worth the hassles. I sold it to a friend because he wanted one and I bought a Hubba...never had a problem since. BTW, my friend couldn't stand the constant "work" to use it and after a year of use, he traded it even for a Hubba...and has never regretted it! I carry a liter of whiskey in my pack...adding an extra pound of poles and fly for a secure shelter doesn't bother me in the least.

geek

[jakedatc]

Liter? AA is for quitters eh? lol

[Jim Adams]

Liter? AA is for quitters eh? lol

....considered a second liter...now that was too heavy ...especially when towns are only 3-4 days apart.

geek

[Tenderheart]

[QUOTE=Wise Old Owl;1246140]What - how would you feel if I call you ignorant too... everyone here hikes....

I meant with your legs, not your fingers. Over 7000 posts? Respectfully speaking, you sure do spew a lot of so-called wisdom. I see that you are planning a thru hike this year. Now, that's interesting.

]

[jakedatc]

[QUOTE=Wise Old Owl;1246140]What - how would you feel if I call you ignorant too... everyone here hikes....

I meant with your legs, not your fingers. Over 7000 posts? Respectfully speaking, you sure do spew a lot of so-called wisdom. I see that you are planning a thru hike this year. Now, that's interesting.

]

You still have not explained why leaving a flap open is wrong

what tent do you use?

[Tenderheart]

[QUOTE=Tenderheart;1247463]

You still have not explained why leaving a flap open is wrong

what tent do you use?

A tarp. An old fashioned tarp. This isn't about condensation in a tent. It's about so many posters here being "all-knowing" with absolutely no experience. Maybe this isn't the place. I just get so tired of reading the babble. Yes, I know. Maybe it's time for me to log off.

[Franco]

Jim Adams
" I bought a Hubba...never had a problem since"

I spotted this comment at BPL this morning :
I chose the Moment over the Rainbow for simplicity of setup, and the ease of getting a drum tight pitch. With my previous shelters (Scarp 1, Hubba), I spent way too much time trying to get a perfect pitch.

and thought of you...

A few years ago I was set to spend a night inside a refuge. The weather was closing in so the idea , since it was just me and a mate, almost appealed to me.
As I was settling in, a group of hikers arrived and started to set up their tents around the bald into the shrub area.
After watching a lady hiker setting up her Hubba, about 10 min into it I pulled my Contrail out of the pack, went out in the middle of the bald, set it up and had it nice and taut before the Hubba was finally standing
Turns out that she had been camping most of her life... (she was about my age, IE well over 50)

Now, I am not too sure how one cannot set up a Scarp or an Hubba, but some can't...
Franco

[Tinker]

Setting up any tent on uneven ground is a pain unless the tent has drawcords and cord locks to adjust the floor. Another reason for hammocks.

A perfect pitch can be achieved in perfect conditions.

[jakedatc]

http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/tents/essential-series/twin-brothers/product

MSR says opening a flap can help ;) (small video link upper right)