View Full Version : Sustainability while Thru-Hiking. Beyond LNT
TippyTumbles
02-09-2012, 21:10
Hey everyone! So while in the process of planning for my thru hike in hopefully 2013, I've been thinking about how to do it in the most sustainable way possible. Over the course of the past few years I've been trying to make my day-to-day life as sustainable as possible, and I'm hoping to keep my life on-trail as sustainable as possible as well.
Of course we all know the principles of Leave No Trace. But what about a more comprehensive view? Hiking itself is obviously low-impact. But what about everything that goes into supporting hiking? For example, where is your food coming from? Is there a way to plan to eat locally as often as possible, resupplying at co-ops/farmers markets/etc? Obviously this can't be done all the time and it would be more expensive. Fuel for stoves is often pretty bad for the environment... what's the most sustainable way to cook food? Are your hiking boots fair trade? A lot of oil is used in making technical wear. A lot of water is wasted in the process as well. And getting to/from the trail also poses an issue.
Anyone know of any articles/resources on this?
mkmangold
02-09-2012, 21:51
There's a short article about this in the final edition of "the Complete Walker." Instead of a Zip Stove, I'd probably opt for this: http://biolitestove.com/CampStove.html , and use the charger to charge a light instead of relying on a solar charger.Go for natural products like wool, silk, and cotton in your clothing choices but avoid jeans. Obviously the less processed the food the better. Avoid Snicker bars. Cheeses and jerkies are exceptions. You can sprout seeds. Filtered water vs. Boiled vs. Chemical treatment? I question which wins overall.Just a few thoughts.
swjohnsey
02-09-2012, 22:27
Down south you can get your fuel from moonshiners. I hear 'possum can be quite tasty.
Just bought new La Sportiva FC ECO 4.0 GTX that uses some recycled material and is supposedly better for the environment (had nothing to do with my purchase decision though). Fair trade hiking gear, I dont know if anyone actually advertises thier stuff as fair trade. And its kinda subjective what is and isnt fair, but most cottage industry gear is made my a handful of American workers, and I dont think many if any brands use child labor. Patogonia and North Face spends a crap load of money buying forest land in Chile and the Patagonia range. Stove fuel really isnt that bad when you put it in perspective; driving a car daily or even using a gas stove in your house, or even using electricity in your house is much more energy dependant (alcohol is still greener I guess).
Food miles isnt really something you have a choice about on the trail you resupply every four or 5 days so whatever is in town is what you get, unless you maildrop (which kinda defeats the whole point). And really what can you get at a farmer market that is dehydrated anyway, buying ramen from them isnt much different than buying from walmart.
Unless you live in an eco-village commune environment normally, hiking is about as low impact as you can get.
swjohnsey
02-09-2012, 23:10
Most of your gear will be made in China by slave labor.
Most of your gear will be made in China by slave labor.Child slave labor!
Leanthree
02-09-2012, 23:36
As or more important than local food (ranked in order most to least important):
Don't fly to the trail, take public transportation, train ideally.
Hitchhike rather than shuttle
Get your calories from plants, not animals
Cook on wood stove
Reduce the goods that need to be purchased new. Use craig's list or similar to buy secondhand
Smooth & Wasabi
02-09-2012, 23:47
If you choose not to cook with wood go with alcohol. It is at least a renewable resource.
mkmangold
02-09-2012, 23:56
And choose items that multi-task. Logistically, it's less of an impact to assemble, Manufacture, and ship 1 item than 2, 3, or even 4. And I would think a natural fiber hammock beats a synthtic pad.
Some good stuff here. Good idea to do some reasearch or think about the total life cycle cost of things. Alot of so called eco things are not, like those eco stoves. Alot of solar devices and such use way too much power to produce and package and distribute compared to alternatives. Quite often what is cheaper, is also more eco-friendly. If something cost more to be "green" it is worth doing some research to make sure it isn't just trendy.
Sustainable footwear is something worth looking into. Alot of great hiking clothing can come from thrift stores, and you can certainly wear the heck out of it before buying more. Alot of gear can be made yourself from recycled material. Footwear might take some work, but could be very rewarding if you learned how to recycle leather into hand sewn trail shoes. You would also be more independant. If you can make it on the trail, you can maintain it on the trail, and if you can maintain it on the trail you can probably make it lighter also.
One of the biggest benefits of hiking sustainably is what you learn from it, and the feeling you get from it. The biggest gains are probably made at home, but what you learn on the trail, and how you change the way you think and live, is something you can bring home with you.
I don't think hiking is necessarily "low impact", it actually has a large "footprint" associated with it. Just look at all the rocks scratched up from tipless trekking poles.
Pedaling Fool
02-10-2012, 14:58
I don't think hiking is necessarily "low impact", it actually has a large "footprint" associated with it. Just look at all the rocks scratched up from tipless trekking poles.Scratched rocks, hmmm....no I don't think that counts as high impact, I would'nt even count that as any form of negative impact.
Personally I don't really see any measure, other than one, as being worth consideration with respect to hiker's impact on the environment. That one exception would be slackpacking, i.e. having someone drop you off in the beginning of the day then pick you up at the end of the day (end of your hike), then they gotta drive you back out there the next morning to get on the trail where you stopped the day before. I've seen quite a few people get addicted to this type of hiking, all so they can walk without a backpack. That adds up.
"Unless you live in an eco-village commune environment normally, hiking is about as low impact as you can get."
Also I got questions about just how "sustainable" these so-called commune-type sustainable ecovillages, but I'll save that for later...
There's a short article about this in the final edition of "the Complete Walker." Instead of a Zip Stove, I'd probably opt for this: http://biolitestove.com/CampStove.html , and use the charger to charge a light instead of relying on a solar charger.Go for natural products like wool, silk, and cotton in your clothing choices but avoid jeans. Obviously the less processed the food the better. Avoid Snicker bars. Cheeses and jerkies are exceptions. You can sprout seeds. Filtered water vs. Boiled vs. Chemical treatment? I question which wins overall.Just a few thoughts.
Thank you for the link
I liked the product. It seems they have worked out some nice way to reduce the smoke. 2 pounds is not too heavy to carry since we can delete the solar power apparatus and cooking stove ( an therefore the fuel )weight from our backpack so it is about carrying just about one pound extra. I might consider it for my camping ( and even hiking) trips but to be honest not because of being sustainable but because it seems that it is really a good invention for Campers/hikers.
hikerboy57
02-10-2012, 15:58
how are you getting to the trail?
how are you getting to the trail?
Cotton sheeting hang glider towed into air by 100 freed Chinese slave laborers on a manila rope. :D
hikerboy57
02-10-2012, 16:11
Cotton sheeting hang glider towed into air by 100 freed Chinese slave laborers on a manila rope. :Dpls sub hemp for cotton sheeting(dont like the slavery connotation)smiley face?
hikerboy57
02-10-2012, 16:55
I don't think hiking is necessarily "low impact", it actually has a large "footprint" associated with it. Just look at all the rocks scratched up from tipless trekking poles.only true if you never go off trail. theres a whole lotta world out there.
pls sub hemp for cotton sheeting(dont like the slavery connotation)smiley face?
Smiley face = : plus ) No spacing. :)
What happened to the "canned" smileys??
Tuckahoe
02-10-2012, 17:02
pls sub hemp for cotton sheeting(dont like the slavery connotation)smiley face?
And hemp growers didnt use slave labor?
hikerboy57
02-10-2012, 17:46
And hemp growers didnt use slave labor?only male hemp growers.
Pedaling Fool
02-10-2012, 19:26
Many holes in this "sustainability" crap being sold to us in the various forms of media. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segU9u8-yi4&feature=related
Use basic common sense to reduce your impact; don't overthink it, like these crazies.
garlic08
02-10-2012, 20:22
Don't slackpack, either.
quilteresq
02-10-2012, 20:59
There's a short article about this in the final edition of "the Complete Walker." Instead of a Zip Stove, I'd probably opt for this: http://biolitestove.com/CampStove.html , and use the charger to charge a light instead of relying on a solar charger.Go for natural products like wool, silk, and cotton in your clothing choices but avoid jeans. Obviously the less processed the food the better. Avoid Snicker bars. Cheeses and jerkies are exceptions. You can sprout seeds. Filtered water vs. Boiled vs. Chemical treatment? I question which wins overall.Just a few thoughts.
Don't even quote anything about cotton clothing for hiking here. BAD idea, and while we know it, some casual reader might take it seriously. That said, I do wander my neighborhood in cotton.
I try very hard to hike sustainably - one of the greatest things you can do is be a vegetarian (and I am) - you save so much water and fertilizer with this plan and do such good things for you body - if a fish jumps out of the creek, I confess, I will eat him though -- I re-use water bottles and peanut butter containers, I carry my own pack, hitch hike, reduce, reuse and recycle as much as I can ... one of the greatest things about long distance hiking is that you don't drive a car anywhere - this saves a ton of gas - very few people go 10,20,30 or more days without using an automobile like I do. Glad you are trying to do your part - don't take life too seriously though - things are serious but getting too worked up doesn't help - something I'm trying to learn. Best regards ......
Oh, and like Garlic says, don't slack-pack - I don't know how this caught-on - I wish someone important would come out and say, NO, this is not allowed - but they won't - i'm getting ready to get flamed on this.
Lone Wolf
02-10-2012, 21:28
slackpackin' is lazy BS. in the last 26 years and 16,000 plus miles i've walked on the AT, i slackpacked about 30 miles. never again.
Most of your gear will be made in China by slave labor.Child slave labor!
The children have smaller hand to do intricate work.
Don't be a vegetarian. Grains require the destruction of entire ecosystems and rivers. We could all be eating the bison on the prairie that were here originally. There were more of them than there are of cattle right now in the US. We could be scooping salmon out of the rivers if we hadn't diverted them for crops and hydro-electric power.
I make my own shoes. You can make sandals from Vibram soling sheets and leather straps. You can get the supplies at Luna Sandals. I have made my own regular shoes from scrap leather and Vibram soling sheets. If they break, I can stitch them back together and glue on new soles.
Don't be a vegetarian. Grains require the destruction of entire ecosystems and rivers. We could all be eating the bison on the prairie that were here originally. There were more of them than there are of cattle right now in the US. We could be scooping salmon out of the rivers if we hadn't diverted them for crops and hydro-electric power.
I make my own shoes. You can make sandals from Vibram soling sheets and leather straps. You can get the supplies at Luna Sandals. I have made my own regular shoes from scrap leather and Vibram soling sheets. If they break, I can stitch them back together and glue on new soles.
What was that?
I was waiting for the whole post to be a joke till the end of the reading but it did not happen!!!!!
You start with the bold statement of "Don't be a vegetarian"? come on, have you heard HYOH?. It is a very polite and smooth phrase that expands to many aspects of life on and off trail.
do yo really believe that being vegetarian is more destructive to planet than being non vegetarian? I am just amazed with your post.
You make your own shoes? Good for you but keep in mind that we live in a society and shoemakers make their living out of me and you paying for our shoes so it is not that simple to say you are doing something good r bad by making your shoes.
I have a friend that is obsessed with being greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen and drives an electric car here in Ontario,Canada but guess what he does not produce electricity of his own. He charges his car by electricity that is produced mainly by gigantic fuel burning generators somewhere just out of his sight . Is he green?
hikerboy57
02-11-2012, 08:20
Don't even quote anything about cotton clothing for hiking here. BAD idea, and while we know it, some casual reader might take it seriously. That said, I do wander my neighborhood in cotton.
i wear cotton tshirts in the summer when its hot and dry, it helps cool my body a lot faster. i can always switch should the weather turn.just sayin.
hikerboy57
02-11-2012, 08:25
Don't be a vegetarian. Grains require the destruction of entire ecosystems and rivers. We could all be eating the bison on the prairie that were here originally. There were more of them than there are of cattle right now in the US. We could be scooping salmon out of the rivers if we hadn't diverted them for crops and hydro-electric power.
I make my own shoes. You can make sandals from Vibram soling sheets and leather straps. You can get the supplies at Luna Sandals. I have made my own regular shoes from scrap leather and Vibram soling sheets. If they break, I can stitch them back together and glue on new soles.
where dfid you get the tools to make your shoes, and just exactly where did the vibram come from?its close to impossible to maintain some sort of 100% pure independant self sustaining non environmentally damaging lifestyle.you can trace everything back to some footprint. the true concept of ecology is about balance, not about purity. Every volcano that erupts spews thousands of tons of acidic debris into the atmosphere(but its natural, right?).eventually balance is restored, without human intervention. the hope is that we as a species dont alter that balance too much.
Many holes in this "sustainability" crap being sold to us in the various forms of media. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segU9u8-yi4&feature=related
Use basic common sense to reduce your impact; don't overthink it, like these crazies.Agreed. People need to figure out for themselves what sustainability is, what is more sustainable, what is less sustainable, and what is worth sustaining. Politicians don't like to talk about sustainability, unless they are twisting it around into something more ambiguous that they can work with, like sustainable development.
Simple put, anything less than sustainability, is not sustainable.
We have to stop dragging our knuckles on these issues.
When it comes to most "stuff", if it isn't cost effective, it probably isn't sustainable.
The exception is fossil fuels, which tend to be too cheap, which is why we are in trouble.
Don't even quote anything about cotton clothing for hiking here. BAD idea, and while we know it, some casual reader might take it seriously. That said, I do wander my neighborhood in cotton.
I hike in cotton flannel boxers. If they get wet I dry them on my head. One cotton item is manageable, and hygenic.
I try very hard to hike sustainably - one of the greatest things you can do is be a vegetarian (and I am) - you save so much water and fertilizer with this plan and do such good things for you body - if a fish jumps out of the creek, I confess, I will eat him though -- I re-use water bottles and peanut butter containers, I carry my own pack, hitch hike, reduce, reuse and recycle as much as I can ... one of the greatest things about long distance hiking is that you don't drive a car anywhere - this saves a ton of gas - very few people go 10,20,30 or more days without using an automobile like I do. Glad you are trying to do your part - don't take life too seriously though - things are serious but getting too worked up doesn't help - something I'm trying to learn. Best regards ......
Oh, and like Garlic says, don't slack-pack - I don't know how this caught-on - I wish someone important would come out and say, NO, this is not allowed - but they won't - i'm getting ready to get flamed on this.Good stuff.
hikerboy57
02-11-2012, 08:57
Agreed. People need to figure out for themselves what sustainability is, what is more sustainable, what is less sustainable, and what is worth sustaining. Politicians don't like to talk about sustainability, unless they are twisting it around into something more ambiguous that they can work with, like sustainable development.
Simple put, anything less than sustainability, is not sustainable.
We have to stop dragging our knuckles on these issues.
When it comes to most "stuff", if it isn't cost effective, it probably isn't sustainable.
The exception is fossil fuels, which tend to be too cheap, which is why we are in trouble.
fossil fuels are not as cheap as they seem. I just heard the other day on the news that wthout tax breaks and govt subsidies, gas would cost well over $13/gallon.big oil rules. this is what needs changing.but the alternatives are more expensive, and people are having a tough enough time making ends meet, that they will chosse the least costly alternative, usually with a clear consciense.
garlic08
02-11-2012, 09:43
I hike in cotton flannel boxers. If they get wet I dry them on my head....
We need a "coffee just shot out my nose" emoticon.
I think the problem is that sooner or later many of us are going to have to stop "making ends meet". ;-)
The St. Petersburg Paradox - Revisited
You are offered an opportunity to play a game. In this game a fair coin is tossed, and if it comes up heads you are given one american dollar and the coin is tossed again, and if it comes up heads you are given two american dollar and the coin is tossed again, and for every head that comes up your additional winnings keep doubled, until it comes up tails and the game is over but you still get to keep all the money so you can't lose. The value of the game in american dollar is infinite, since mathematically it doesn't converge. You only get to play once. The catch is, in order to play the game you have to be willing to burn some amount of fossil fuels.
The question is how much fossil fuels are you willing to burn in order to play, according to one of the following rules;
1. You have to buy the fossil fuels and then burn it all up for no purpose other than to play ?
2. You don't have to pay for the fossil fuels, but they still get burned for no other purpose ?
3. Finally, you don't have to pay, but you get to decide how the fossil fuels are put to use ?
Myself:
1. By rule#1, I figure I would be willing to buy and burn up about 1 tankful of gas, about 15 gallons.
2. By rule#2, since I wouldn't have to pay for it myself, maybe a tank of fuel oil, about 200 gallons.
3. By rule#3, I suppose I might be willing to burn it all up, but I don't think I would be able to figure out the best way to put it to use, or over what period of time it should be burned, so I suppose I wouldn't be very popular for doing so, especially if the damn coin came up tails right away, which would be just my luck. So I guess maybe I would only burn as much as I likely would myself anyway, for my own and my families use in my lifetime. No free gas for you guys, but of course I am a heartless greedy bastard ( but not a dictator lol ).
Maybe I should give it some thought though. Maybe I could be a benevolent dictator for a day or two, or a year.
Could be fun, even if at the end of the day I didn't even win any money. What harm could it do ???
I guess we all have to make choices, even if we don't always calculate all the odds.
mkmangold
02-11-2012, 13:01
Don't even quote anything about cotton clothing for hiking here. BAD idea, and while we know it, some casual reader might take it seriously. That said, I do wander my neighborhood in cotton.
Mainly it was a warning about jeans. At the time I wrote it, I was thinking that baseball caps made of cotton have less of an impact than caps made of say, tyvek, like one of mine. My underwear is cotton because polypro makes me sweat like nothing else. Some posters wear cotton t-shirts which probably have their place in the right conditions.
I'm going to start this a little off topic, but I went to buy some saw blades for my table saw yesterday - I couldn't find what I needed at my local hardware it's called "Normal Hardware Store" and went to Lowes - the guy there wanted to show me a table saw - and what I got out of that is that most people (like this guy) think that what he was showing me was a "table saw" - they were like $598. I just shook my head and didn't say much. What I SAW was a piece of cheap chinese crap made of plastic and pot metal - the "big one" weighed like 60 pounds. They don't even sell "contractor saws" any more -- that guy wouldn't have ANY IDEA what he was looking at if he saw my cabinet saw made in McMinnville, Tennessee - it weighs a couple of thousand pounds and would have been in the $4,000 - $5,000 range new (in today's money) - it was built in the 1970s and it would slice those cheap Lowes saws in half for breakfast. This is why in my business, if I need something new, I buy from tool manufacturers like Festool -- www.festool.com/EN/Pages/index.aspx or Martin or Powermatic - see, most of you haven't even heard of these companies - that's because you EXCEPT that what Lowes, and Target, and Walmart, etc. sells acceptable items -- they are not -- they sell crap -- and most people have been totally snowed over a period of time to accept this standard -- now, on to sustainability:
I will NEVER have to replace my table saw in my LIFETIME - no more gas to move it, truck it somewhere, etc. -NEVER - same things with my other tools. Maybe, the most sustainable thing that BACKPACKERS can do is to INVEST in equipment made by small to medium companies that put quality FIRST and price no-where - it simply costs what it costs. You buy it with the intention of keeping it forever -when you purchase your next sleeping bag or rain jacket or tent or stove, think of things in this context -- OR -- just make things yourself home-made - like an alcohol or a wood burner stove, or a sleeping bag. It is this sort of thinking that leads you down the path toward sustainability. Support business models that are sustainable - businesses that make long-lasting products - people you can talk to on the phone and get an answer to a question - seek THESE people out. One clue is to find products made in Germany, Sweden, Italy, and the US - I have some chinese stuff because it's hard to avoid but TRY - stay out of Walmart and avoid REI (if alternatives exist for you).
By the way, I didn't buy the saw blades - waiting on Martindale to send me a box.
The cheap man (or woman) spends the most.
HYOH
Tuckahoe
02-11-2012, 13:54
I will NEVER have to replace my table saw in my LIFETIME - no more gas to move it, truck it somewhere, etc. -NEVER - same things with my other tools. Maybe, the most sustainable thing that BACKPACKERS can do is to INVEST in equipment made by small to medium companies that put quality FIRST and price no-where - it simply costs what it costs. You buy it with the intention of keeping it forever...
And here is something that I can agree with. Fair trade boots? What the hell are those? But well made boots that can be fixed and repaired and rebuilt so that they can last 10, 15 or 20 years? Well worth the time and money.
hikerboy57
02-11-2012, 14:13
I'm going to start this a little off topic, but I went to buy some saw blades for my table saw yesterday - I couldn't find what I needed at my local hardware it's called "Normal Hardware Store" and went to Lowes - the guy there wanted to show me a table saw - and what I got out of that is that most people (like this guy) think that what he was showing me was a "table saw" - they were like $598. I just shook my head and didn't say much. What I SAW was a piece of cheap chinese crap made of plastic and pot metal - the "big one" weighed like 60 pounds. They don't even sell "contractor saws" any more -- that guy wouldn't have ANY IDEA what he was looking at if he saw my cabinet saw made in McMinnville, Tennessee - it weighs a couple of thousand pounds and would have been in the $4,000 - $5,000 range new (in today's money) - it was built in the 1970s and it would slice those cheap Lowes saws in half for breakfast. This is why in my business, if I need something new, I buy from tool manufacturers like Festool -- www.festool.com/EN/Pages/index.aspx or Martin or Powermatic - see, most of you haven't even heard of these companies - that's because you EXCEPT that what Lowes, and Target, and Walmart, etc. sells acceptable items -- they are not -- they sell crap -- and most people have been totally snowed over a period of time to accept this standard -- now, on to sustainability:
I will NEVER have to replace my table saw in my LIFETIME - no more gas to move it, truck it somewhere, etc. -NEVER - same things with my other tools. Maybe, the most sustainable thing that BACKPACKERS can do is to INVEST in equipment made by small to medium companies that put quality FIRST and price no-where - it simply costs what it costs. You buy it with the intention of keeping it forever -when you purchase your next sleeping bag or rain jacket or tent or stove, think of things in this context -- OR -- just make things yourself home-made - like an alcohol or a wood burner stove, or a sleeping bag. It is this sort of thinking that leads you down the path toward sustainability. Support business models that are sustainable - businesses that make long-lasting products - people you can talk to on the phone and get an answer to a question - seek THESE people out. One clue is to find products made in Germany, Sweden, Italy, and the US - I have some chinese stuff because it's hard to avoid but TRY - stay out of Walmart and avoid REI (if alternatives exist for you).
By the way, I didn't buy the saw blades - waiting on Martindale to send me a box.
The cheap man (or woman) spends the most.
HYOH
goes against everything american consumerism has brainwashed us about.
Built to last.own it forever.
PapaD, thanks for a great perspective.
Feral Bill
02-11-2012, 14:16
Don't even quote anything about cotton clothing for hiking here. BAD idea, and while we know it, some casual reader might take it seriously. That said, I do wander my neighborhood in cotton. Cotton gets somewhat of a bad rap. Back in the wool age, everyone used it, even in the Whites in winter. (Shells, fishnet underwear) We still lived. For warm weather it definately has a place.
Feral Bill
02-11-2012, 14:25
And here is something that I can agree with. Fair trade boots? What the hell are those? But well made boots that can be fixed and repaired and rebuilt so that they can last 10, 15 or 20 years? Well worth the time and money. Brings up the question, should a person buy heavier, repairable boots to through hike, or go through several pair of throwaway trail runners? I sure don't know.
quilteresq
02-11-2012, 21:58
i wear cotton tshirts in the summer when its hot and dry, it helps cool my body a lot faster. i can always switch should the weather turn.just sayin.
Must be something about that snow storm that caught me in the Whites on Memorial Day weekend in '89 that makes me think it's a bad idea! Besides, my really lightweight summer hiking shirts weigh less and feel great!
quilteresq
02-11-2012, 22:02
goes against everything american consumerism has brainwashed us about.
Built to last.own it forever.
PapaD, thanks for a great perspective.
I once has a Russian roommate, and she told me that one thing that fascinated her about moving to America was that light bulbs burned out so fast. Apparently, they were pretty industrial strength there. It's true - lots of stuff is made to break down. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like moving that saw!
fossil fuels are not as cheap as they seem. I just heard the other day on the news that wthout tax breaks and govt subsidies, gas would cost well over $13/gallon.big oil rules. \.
Complete and utter BS
1) If someone wants to try to focus on sustainability when they hike---I say "go for it". Hike Your Own Hike. It it works for you--GREAT!!!!
2) Sustainability--especially radical sustainability--is clearly not my PERSONAL style. In MY OPINION, "sustainability" is (often) just the latest "feel good" craze and/or "fad". (I feel the same way about "going green". Going Green is a wonderful, feel good, phrase and a feel good concept. Yet, many 'green" things only serve to make some entrepreneur a bit richer--but do very little to improve the overall environment. Some supposedly green products and practices actually harm the environment more than the more traditional ways.
3) It is probably going to be difficult, expensive, time consuming (and a huge pain is the butt) to follow an all-out sustainable way of life as one hikes the AT.
Tuckahoe
02-12-2012, 10:08
Brings up the question, should a person buy heavier, repairable boots to through hike, or go through several pair of throwaway trail runners? I sure don't know.
And that comes to the reality that people have to make their own choices. If you were asking me, I'd tell you that I do prefer those classic leather boots. But then I also wear leather boots daily and so i have never considered them heavy.
garlic08
02-12-2012, 10:26
...In MY OPINION, "sustainability" is (often) just the latest "feel good" craze and/or "fad". (I feel the same way about "going green". Going Green is a wonderful, feel good, phrase and a feel good concept. Yet, many 'green" things only serve to make some entrepreneur a bit richer--but do very little to improve the overall environment. Some supposedly green products and practices actually harm the environment more than the more traditional ways....
It's painful to realize that you're probably right. Like the studies that show that a Prius does more environmental damage than a Hummer. Who really knows, long term? Who knew in 1910 that suppressing wildland fire would lead to the mess we have in our forests out West now? So often our actions have exactly opposite consequences than we intended.
I once heard a very avid environmentalist opine that the worst thing that's happened to the environment recently has been curbside recycling programs. Easy recycling, she said, just makes people feel better about consuming. The better effort would be to work on reducing consumption, and reusing.
Every time I avoid a trip in a car (slackpacking), buy a bulk item instead of packages (large box of oats instead of individuals), reuse a resealable tortilla bag to store those oats in, or refuse an offer of a beverage in a small plastic bottle, I do feel better about my hike. If we pay attention to the little things, sometimes big problems get solved. I hope that's not too preachy.
Being a vegetarian is OK. Having everyone become a vegetarian would not work. Sheep, pigs and cattle are raised on land that is often unsuitable for crops.
Electic cars are not sustainable unless the electricity is produced that way. We would be better off focussing on fuel efficiancy. Why does a German VW Jetta get something like 25 miles per gallon better than the US version?
I am facinated by a system I saw on TV from the Washington DC solar house competition. The house's solar and wind energy was converted to hydrogen for use in the house but could also fuel a car.
Don't be a vegetarian. Grains require the destruction of entire ecosystems and rivers. We could all be eating the bison on the prairie that were here originally. There were more of them than there are of cattle right now in the US. We could be scooping salmon out of the rivers if we hadn't diverted them for crops and hydro-electric power.
I make my own shoes. You can make sandals from Vibram soling sheets and leather straps. You can get the supplies at Luna Sandals. I have made my own regular shoes from scrap leather and Vibram soling sheets. If they break, I can stitch them back together and glue on new soles.
What was that?
I was waiting for the whole post to be a joke till the end of the reading but it did not happen!!!!!
You start with the bold statement of "Don't be a vegetarian"? come on, have you heard HYOH?. It is a very polite and smooth phrase that expands to many aspects of life on and off trail.
do yo really believe that being vegetarian is more destructive to planet than being non vegetarian? I am just amazed with your post.
You make your own shoes? Good for you but keep in mind that we live in a society and shoemakers make their living out of me and you paying for our shoes so it is not that simple to say you are doing something good r bad by making your shoes.
I have a friend that is obsessed with being greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen and drives an electric car here in Ontario,Canada but guess what he does not produce electricity of his own. He charges his car by electricity that is produced mainly by gigantic fuel burning generators somewhere just out of his sight . Is he green?
hikerboy57
02-12-2012, 11:40
Complete and utter BS
sorry, but how much does gas cost in europe?
hikerboy57
02-12-2012, 11:48
sorry, but how much does gas cost in europe?take a look:http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-15/markets/30400587_1_gas-prices-gasoline-gallon
Pedaling Fool
02-12-2012, 11:58
These people claim to be living a sustainable life. http://www.cobbhill.org/
However, I do question their claim of sustainability. Maybe I'm wrong and overlooking something, but what about this:
The U.S. has a total land area of about 2.3 billion acres http://www.ers.usda.gov/Publications/EIB14/ much of which is very different in environment, not nearly all the same as their 270 acres. Not to mention about 375 million acres are in Alaska http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/narratives/ALASKA.htm
But let's keep it simple, say we take the 312,000,000 people that live in the U.S. and divide them up into groups of 60 (the number in this commune) that would be 5.2 million groups.
Now let’s take the 5.2 million groups and give each group 270 acres. That equals about 1,404,000,000 acres (that’s about 4.5 acres per person). That only leaves 896 million acres as wilderness.
Seems to me that the below reality is better than adopting a more "sustainable" lifestyle.
Basically in today's world we have (as of 2002) http://www.ers.usda.gov/Publications/EIB14/
Major uses in 2002 were
Forest-use land 651 million acres (28.8 percent)
Grassland pasture and Range land, 587 million acres (25.9 percent)
Cropland, 442 million acres (19.5 percent)
Special uses (primarily parks and wildlife areas), 297 million acres (13.1 percent)
Miscellaneous other uses, 228 million acres (10.1 percent)
Urban land, 60 million acres (2.6 percent).
I know this is a very simplistic comparison, but one thing it doesn’t take into count is that these so-called eco villages are not completely separated from society – that only increases their acres-per-person allotment. What they don’t tell us is just how much they are reliant on stuff like water, electricity, food, firewood….
It may look environmentally friendly, but it’s anything but. Because once you develop land it kills biodiversity, regardless of how green it looks. Science and technology is the only way to stay sustainable, not these regressive approaches. Until we get more advanced forms of technology to improve this over used word sustainability, personal responsibility in resource use is the most significant factor in keeping our standard of living.
Every time I avoid a trip in a car (slackpacking), buy a bulk item instead of packages (large box of oats instead of individuals), reuse a resealable tortilla bag to store those oats in, or refuse an offer of a beverage in a small plastic bottle, I do feel better about my hike. If we pay attention to the little things, sometimes big problems get solved. I hope that's not too preachy.
You are speaking my language with this paragraph--and no, I don't think that you are being preachy. Personally, I believe it is a matter of "balance"--a system of "give and take" between me and the environment/habitat.
I have cut down numerous trees in my lifetime. Yet, I have planted many more trees than I have cut down.
Back in the years when I hunted, I killed animals. Yet, through my hunting/fishing license fees, membership fees and donations made to "outdoor organizations"--I have contributed immensely to habitat restoration and to restocking of waterways and to animal breeding programs. I also have personally done "hands on" work at habitat restoration and restocking of waterways. These activities and donations have added far more animals to the habitat than I have ever "removed" from the habitat.
I have hiked numerous miles of trails--but I have also worked on trail crews rebuilding trails and helping to curb things like erosion.
I have enjoyed campfires, but I have also helped construct "firebreaks" and helped with controlled prairie fire burns--which have helped reduce the spread of wildfires (and the loss of thousands of acres of habitat.
I am certain that I have (accidentally) dropped small pieces of litter out of my pack and pockets. However, I have also "packed out" entire bags worth of trash left behind by other people.
BOTTOM LINE: I don't get into all of the latest environmentalist, geo-political, fads. I don't get bent out of shape over whether I (or someone else) uses paper, plastic, or cloth bags when shopping. I don't condemn people who drive a SUV--nor do I go out of my way applaud people who ride a bike, walk drive a Prius. I simply do my little bit of conservation activities--in my own way and my own time. I think that is what the vast majority of us "outdoor people" do on a regular basis.
ChinMusic
02-12-2012, 18:07
My idea of sustainability is to eat well enough, rest well enough, so I can sustain my thru.
Brings up the question, should a person buy heavier, repairable boots to through hike, or go through several pair of throwaway trail runners? I sure don't know.
I just took off my LaSportivas that I wore today and they say "made in China" - I have two pairs that say "made in Italy" - I feel better about those. Some things are not sustainable but are renewable - other things are simply disposable - don't sacrifice your hike to the point of absurdity by ONLY purchasing products that will last forever - just try to lean in that direction - buy long lasting things and ethical things as best as you can - I THINK about this stuff nearly every time I make any purchase - this will make you a more sustainable person and member of society but no, I wouldn't consider hiking the trail in huge lug soled boots either.
only true if you never go off trail. theres a whole lotta world out there.
Even if you stay ON trail, you are contributing to abnormal soil erosion and such. But I'm not arguing that you should stop hiking and start driving hummers. But watching many of the thru hikers, sectioners, and day hikers this past spring made me consider the impact hiking does have on our wilderness. I guess that's more of a Leave No Trace topic however.
hikerboy57
02-13-2012, 19:24
Even if you stay ON trail, you are contributing to abnormal soil erosion and such. But I'm not arguing that you should stop hiking and start driving hummers. But watching many of the thru hikers, sectioners, and day hikers this past spring made me consider the impact hiking does have on our wilderness. I guess that's more of a Leave No Trace topic however.
The purpose of the trails, shelters designated campsites etc. is exactly that. we know the trail will suffer the rigors of thousands of pairs of feet , along with poles,etc.but although the impact on the trail itself may be severe in spots, thats the idea, rather than have a general "spreading" of the trail width, expansion of tentsites. Keep all the impact focused in one narrow corridor, so we can keep the rest as unspoiled as possible.Thats what makes LNT so important when it comes to trails,especially the AT, more than open back country, which is hard to find in the east, where the impact is much more spread out.a zero footprint is a myth.
Doc Mike
02-13-2012, 19:55
If you choose not to cook with wood go with alcohol. It is at least a renewable resource.
I assume you mean ethanol, because the metahnol we use is a petro product. Ethanol is not renewable either when you consider all the fuel, equipment and fertilizer used in its production. It would be cost prohibitive as a fuel with out government susidies which raises the cost of corn that gets shipped to the fair trade countries so they can afford less of it to feed the starving children.
Just saying....
Doc Mike
02-13-2012, 20:01
sorry, but how much does gas cost in europe?
How much is the gas tax in europe? Its over a dollar a gallon here.
Brings up the question, should a person buy heavier, repairable boots to through hike, or go through several pair of throwaway trail runners? I sure don't know.
Too bad Warren Doyle does not post here anymore-- this topic would .benefit from his perspective and experience.
Think $2 sneakers.
hikerboy57
02-13-2012, 20:19
How much is the gas tax in europe? Its over a dollar a gallon here.according to about.com in france, taxes make up almost 70% of the retail price of gas.
poor french.
poor french.
Yea, with rates like that I'll bet they can't even afford to take a two week vacation each year. Poor French.
hikerboy57
02-13-2012, 20:41
Yea, with rates like that I'll bet they can't even afford to take a two week vacation each year. Poor French.
yes european socialism is working out well. that month long vacation has been indefinitely extended for many. in greece, soccor rioters have chosen to do away with the game altogether
and if you prefer paris, its just a plane ride away. I'll still take our flawed system over anyone elses.
au revoir.
@ Papa D and the table saw.
Yeah well its another example of companies making stuff cheaper and more throwable. But also the saw I think you own is more industrial, atleast sounds that way. Tools today are more about every individual guy or girl owning a complete array of tools whether or not he/she needs them. It is like golf clubs for someone going to the putput. The saw I think you own, was made probably for a carpenter or person who intended to make professional furniture. Cheap tools are aimed at every person with 20 bucks and no idea what they are doing. Most of the people I know around my age have no idea how to use even the most basic tools. My friend was in awe when I cut a piece of plywood in half, just had no idea how a person could cut a straight line. I saw the same guy strip the screws, with a hand powered screwdriver, when replacing a doorknob. I could go on with more and more rediculous examples but you get the idea.
Made In China, yeah used to be a tell-tale sign of pure crap. But not anymore, depends on the item now and I think you have just as much chance with a made in USA, mexico, or anywhere else of buying crap. So now it could be crap but doesnt mean it definately is.
I just bought a new pair of La Sportivas, that I love, and it said they were made in Vietnam. So far seems very high quality and if I didnt see Vietnam I never would have assumed they werent made in Italy.
Pedaling Fool
02-14-2012, 09:40
Even if you stay ON trail, you are contributing to abnormal soil erosion and such. But I'm not arguing that you should stop hiking and start driving hummers. But watching many of the thru hikers, sectioners, and day hikers this past spring made me consider the impact hiking does have on our wilderness. I guess that's more of a Leave No Trace topic however.This idea that walking leads to abnormal soil erosion always intrigues me. I just don't see it; I guess one could argue that the trail itself leads to more erosion, because of the lack of plants/leaf litter which protects soil from rain/wind.
But that leads to a very interesting question: How quickly would the mountains disappear if all plant life was removed?
Personally I don't believe the act of walking or even running (multiplied thousands of times) really has much of an effect on erosion, probably helps prevent it, somewhat, due to the forces of compaction. But I can see how bare soil, aka, a trail, when in contact with weather will lead to abnormally higer erosion. But all-in-all, I'd still say weather, period, is the primary factor in shrinking the mountains, trail or no trail.
Although mountaintop removal seems like a pretty good method to flattening them mountains -- nature in fast forward mode:)
Cotton sheeting hang glider towed into air by 100 freed Chinese slave laborers on a manila rope. :D
hahahahahahahahah