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ncmtns
03-08-2012, 09:29
Found an old recipe for bug repellent from an old camping book that supposed to work..

3 parts Pine Tar
2 parts Castor Oil
1 part Pennyoil

mix and heat slowly to blend
will wash off with soap

Will report on its results at bug season..

swjohnsey
03-08-2012, 09:36
What is Pennyoil?

squirrel bait
03-08-2012, 10:05
It's the oil from the Penny Royal plant.

swjohnsey
03-08-2012, 10:31
Wow! Never heard of it but looked it up on Wiki. Very toxic.

Hawkwind61
03-08-2012, 11:48
A tiny bit of Penny Royal oil goes a long way. I got into a 'fix' years back when a friend of mine's kids kept giving me head lice while I was caring for them. I was getting to the point of considering shaving my head! I found some and put a couple drops in with a couple drops each of my lavender oil, tea tree oil, citronella oil, and neem oil...all added to my Dr Bronners. Finally got rid of the lice and by using that during each shampoo until her kids were 'clean' of the lice and nits I stopped getting re-infected.

A short time later, my daughter that had waist-length hair and worked at a dance studio, kept being put at risk from all the kids coming in with lice. So I made up a batch for her and she was able to evade the lice invasion at her place of work.

If you use Penny Royal I would suggest using it sparingly and read the warnings thoroughly. Definitely not something women that are pregnant or could be pregnant should be using.

tiptoe
03-08-2012, 14:34
I don't know about the bugs but this mix would certainly keep me away.

Spokes
03-08-2012, 15:07
You forgot the feathers!!!!!!

Hikes in Rain
03-08-2012, 15:14
Looks like something I read in Kephart or Nessmuck. Where'd you find it, ncmnts?

Spokes
03-08-2012, 15:23
According to the Packers Pine Tar Soap webpage, pine tar was the preferred insect repellent of the US Army Corp of Engineers prior to WW ll

http://packers-pine.com/

Another webpage lists the ingredients as:
Soap Base, Pine Tar, Pine Oil, Iron Oxide, PEG-75

My mom used to clean toilet bowls with PineSol. I'd hate to be reminded of that.....

thia
03-08-2012, 15:28
do you mean pennyroyal?

lemon b
03-08-2012, 15:51
Old School New England solution. Fern Juice.

russb
03-10-2012, 10:20
Looks like something I read in Kephart or Nessmuck. Where'd you find it, ncmnts?


I thought the same thing when i read it. I remembered Nessmuk had used pennyroyal in his recipe. Here is what he wrote in "Woodcraft":

"It was published in Forest and Stream in the summer of 1880 and again in '83. It has been pretty widely quoted and adopted and I have never known it to fail: Three ounces pine tar, two ounces castor oil, one ounce pennyroyal oil. Simmer all together over a slow fire and bottle for use. You will hardly need more than a two-ounce vial full in a season. One ounce has lasted me six weeks in the woods. Rub it in thoroughly and liberally at first, and after you have established a good glaze, a little replenishing from day to day will be sufficient. And don't fool with soap and towels where insects are plenty. A good safe coat of this varnish grows better the longer it is kept on—and it is cleanly and wholesome. If you get your face and hands crocky or smutty about the campfire, wet the corner of your handkerchief and rub it off, not forgetting to apply the varnish at once, wherever you have cleaned it off. Last summer I carried a cake of soap and a towel in my knapsack through the North Woods for a seven weeks' tour and never used either a single time. When I had established a good glaze on the skin, it was too valuable to be sacrificed for any weak whim connected with soap and water. When I struck a woodland hotel, I found soap and towels plenty enough. I found the mixture gave one's face the ruddy tanned look supposed to be indicative of health and hard muscle. A thorough ablution in the public wash basin reduced the color, but left the skin very soft and smooth; in fact, as a lotion for the skin it is excellent. It is a soothing and healing application for poisonous bites already received."

Wise Old Owl
03-10-2012, 11:23
Nice to hear about the old stuff - I have 14 oz of DDT... Just found it in the basement from the previous owner abt 1970 and purchased from Walgreens for 97cents...

Bet you would not want to use that too....

Stick With Deep Woods Off.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/thumb/get?bid=j0J%2fBcel%2f5L8JQ&bn=CC&fbid=7wIR63%2bClmj%2b0A&fbn=CC

shelterbuilder
03-10-2012, 22:38
Anyone who grew up in or prior to the Great Depression would have been familiar with the use of pennyroyal. It was frequently used as both an insect repellent AND as a flea "dip" for the family dog! My own Grandmother (born in the early 1900's) was the one who first told me about this herb and its uses.

Coincidentally, when we were building the William Penn Shelter, we came across a rather large patch of the stuff, and during several early summer trips, when the bugs were biting and we were short on repellent, we went down and picked a bit of it, crushed it between our hands, and rubbed the juice directly on our skin...and it really worked!

I suspect that the pine tar was added to the recipe as a base, and the castor oil as an emulsifier. Pine tar is somewhat of a repellent in its own right, but also seems to act as a "varnish-solid" that makes it harder for the bugs to bite through.

Surplusman
03-11-2012, 04:35
This bug repellent is basically Old Time Woodsman's Fly Dope. I bought a bottle of it when I worked on a grounds crew some years ago. It did a good job of keeping everything away, including people. It has a very pungent scent to it, and despite being careful about sealing the bottle and putting it in a small container, the scent would find its way out. The nice thing about it is, when you're in the woods awhile and you use that concoction, instead of smelling like sewer gas you have the aroma of a refinery.

Wise Old Owl
03-11-2012, 10:55
Ok that 's sounds better - anything other than pitch and castor oil

15481 Penny Royal

JAK
03-11-2012, 11:27
I got alot of black flies on the Dobson Trail last June. Not too bad when moving, or at night, but could NOT stop by day. Even tieing a shoelace would drive me half mad. Deet did not help much. Once the swarm was big enough they would seem to get even more agressive around the eyes. I will hike again in black fly season, but you definitely need to be prepared to keep moving constantly.

I just read in Wikipedia that DEET products might even attract more black flies. First I have heard of this. Anyone else heard of this ???

Wise Old Owl
03-11-2012, 11:32
Jak I understand what you are saying - but its 14 percent Deet - and there is a repellent component... 100 percent Deet did not work well in some of my tests. And for the ounces a Bug Shirt/ head gear is a winner too.

4eyedbuzzard
03-11-2012, 11:52
A lot of reports/tests I've read conclude that anything above 30% DEET doesn't repel bugs any better. Given that you need to distribute the stuff over the skin in a big area there would seem to be some sense in having a carrier liquid that could aid in getting the DEET spread around well. I've been using Sawyer's Broad Spectrum (formerly Sawyer's Gold) for several years now with good results keeping mosquitos, black flies and ticks off me. It's got a fly repellent (MGK something) and a "synergist" chemical as well as 25% DEET in it.

Wise Old Owl
03-11-2012, 11:58
We look at this the same way... I tried many brands while in Canada - and like DWO the best, later I saw reviews from fly infested places and that solidified my opinion.

JAK
03-11-2012, 12:56
I should say the deet I brought did work for a short time, which seems consistent with other things I read. I can't see how you could test to see if it increased swarming as there are so many factors involved. I think what I will try next time is a combination of special clothing for when stopping, bug hat and net for when stopping, and putting the deet or whatever on while I am hiking just before stopping. Still, those little bastards will be all over you and up your nose and in your eyes before you get a chance to put the clothing on. I only had a tarp, but had no problem at night as it was a bit early for mosquitos. First week of June. Lots of moving streams that black flies seem to love. They don't seem to mind following you for miles until you stop, and then they move in for the kill. I think early man must have got the idea of persistent hunting from black flies. lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

Snowleopard
03-11-2012, 13:50
Pennyroyal oil: I read a similar recipe in Kephart's Camping and Woodcraft. When I researched pennyroyal's effects I decided that it was too toxic. DEET and permethrin are a lot safer than pennyroyal.


... I've been using Sawyer's Broad Spectrum (formerly Sawyer's Gold) for several years now with good results keeping mosquitos, black flies and ticks off me. It's got a fly repellent (MGK something) and a "synergist" chemical as well as 25% DEET in it.

* R-326 - The most effective repellent against flies
* MGK 264 - Photo protectant to extend the efficacy of DEET and R-326
This stuff seems to have been removed from the market, which makes me wonder about it's safety. A bit more googling: the EPA classifies R-326 as a probable carcinogen. It's registration seems to have been suspended at least temporarily: http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/mgk_326_red.pdf I'm not sure whether I'll use the stuff I have left -- sometimes death is preferable to black flies.



I got alot of black flies on the Dobson Trail last June. Not too bad when moving, or at night, but could NOT stop by day. Even tieing a shoelace would drive me half mad. Deet did not help much. Once the swarm was big enough they would seem to get even more agressive around the eyes. I will hike again in black fly season, but you definitely need to be prepared to keep moving constantly.

I just read in Wikipedia that DEET products might even attract more black flies. First I have heard of this. Anyone else heard of this ???
My experience has been that DEET does work on black flies to some degree, but headnets and permethrin treated clothes are more secure. And as JAK says, keep moving constantly. I hadn't seen that wikipedia info; they don't provide any reference for that info.

4eyedbuzzard
03-11-2012, 14:08
I didn't know they removed it from the market. I guess I'll covet the few bottles I have left.

But hey, if they removed it from the market, you know it has to work good, right? :D

Flies don't like cigar smoke either, but again, that's also a carcinogen.


Do you know what really causes cancer in laboratory animals? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Laboratories

Tinker
03-11-2012, 14:26
Do you know what really causes cancer in laboratory animals? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Laboratories

Stress - in any form has shown to contribute to almost every disease, including cancer.

Using permethrin and deet, along with a headnet, keeps me from stressing. ;)

russb
03-11-2012, 16:40
Ever since I started treating my clothing (hat especially) with permethrin, I rarely need to use deet.

Wise Old Owl
03-11-2012, 18:34
Thats great Russb,


This is for everyone:


Can I use an insect repellent containing DEET and sunscreen at the same time?
Yes. People can and should use both sunscreen and DEET when they are outdoors to protect their health. Follow the instructions on the package for proper application of each product. Apply sunscreen first, followed by repellant containing DEET. To protect from sun exposure and insect bites, you can also wear long sleeves and long pants. You can also apply insect repellent containing DEET or permethrin to your clothing, rather than directly to your skin.
Has CDC changed its recommendations for use of DEET and sunscreen?
No. Based on available research, CDC believes it is safe to use both products at the same time. Follow the instructions on the package for proper application of each product. Apply sunscreen first, then insect repellent containing DEET, to be sure that each product works as specified.
Should I use a combination sunscreen/DEET-based insect repellent?
Because the instructions for safe use of DEET and safe use of sunscreen are different, CDC does not recommend using products that combine DEET with sunscreen. In most situations, DEET does not need to be reapplied as frequently as sunscreen. DEET is very safe when applied correctly. The rare adverse reactions to DEET have generally occurred in situations where people do not follow the product instructions. Sunscreen often requires frequent reapplication, so using a combined product is not recommended. You do not need to reapply insect repellent every time you reapply sunscreen. Follow the instructions on the package for each product to get the best results.
I heard about a study saying that there may be some type of interaction between repellents containing DEET and sunscreen. Is this true?
There has been attention to a study concerning the chemicals in DEET and sunscreen presented at a scientific meeting. This is an in vitro study, which means that it is a laboratory study that did not include human or animal testing. The goal of the study was to examine absorption of these chemicals, and it did not evaluate or make conclusions about health effects related to this issue. The study authors stated that further evaluation of the interaction of these chemicals should be conducted. The study has not yet been published (as of July 2003).
Evaluation by the EPA, which regulates products such as DEET, indicates that it is safe to use insect repellents containing DEET and sunscreen at the same time. CDC recommends using two separate products because sunscreen requires frequent applications while DEET should be used sparingly. Follow the directions on the package for each product, and consult your physician or pharmacist if you have questions. CDC's recommendations for the safe use of insect repellents on children and adults remain unchanged.
How should DEET repellents be used to prevent insect bites?


Read and follow the instructions on the label and avoid excessive use and over-application.
The more DEET a product contains, the longer the repellant can protect against mosquito bites. However, concentrations higher than 50 percent do not increase the length of protection. For most situations, 10 percent to 25 percent DEET is adequate.
To make sure you will not react to the repellent, apply the product to a small area of skin on your arm or leg before general use.
Use just enough repellent to cover exposed skin and/or clothing.
After returning indoors, wash treated skin with soap and water. Wash treated clothing before wearing again.
Do not spray directly on face; spray the repellent onto hands and then apply to face. Avoid sensitive areas like the eyes, mouth and nasal membranes.
Do not apply over cuts, wounds or irritated skin.
Do not use under clothing.
Avoid spraying on plastics (such as watch crystals and eyeglasses frames), rayon, spandex, other synthetic fabrics, leather and painted or varnished surfaces because DEET can damage those surfaces.
Do not spray DEET-containing products in enclosed areas.
DEET products will usually repel mosquitoes for several hours, so it is not necessary to reapply the repellent more frequently than that.
DEET products will NOT repel stinging insects such as wasps and bees.