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View Full Version : Why people carry so much "stuff"



Papa D
03-13-2012, 23:35
I just finished a couple of days on the trail - Amicalola to Neels and passed a bunch of hikers - - some termed themselves "thru-hikers" (which is cool). What I simply don't understand is that with all the information available why people continue to hike wearing big heavy boots, heavy army pants, cotton shirts, and carry absurd things like pillows and lap-tops, and buck knives on their belts, and guns (yep - saw one) - - hanging haphazardly off the back of their packs swinging to and fro. Lumpy at Neels told me that they ship 9000 pounds of gear "home" for folks each season. So why, with all the information available are people so darn bent on making their hikes essentially miserable? At least back in the day (before the internet) hikers had to be personally mentored to catch up with the learning curve - - now, I just don't get it. I saw a lot of wet miserable people.

Sarcasm the elf
03-13-2012, 23:37
Some lessons just need to be learned through experience.

Papa D
03-13-2012, 23:51
You don't go to a basketball game and see real players wearing Chuck Taylors or to a football game and see leather helmets. People showing up to other activities are more or less "with-it" - it seems that new backpackers just make a bunch of garbage up -- "hmmm, think I carry this item - - a giant box of wet-wipes, a female urinal, "a couple" of books, a huge 100' hank of rope, an EMTs 5-pound first aid kit, a rifle, ammo, army style steel canteens, a mousetrap, full strength climbing carabiners, board games, - - I mean I saw people suffering through carrying goofy stuff. I don't advocate super ultra light for new folks -certainly not GO-FREEZE style - - just sort of a normal sane rig - - I saw too few.

Rasty
03-13-2012, 23:53
Many people refuse to listen to any advise or evaluate what they are packing to see if they actually used or need it. Pain is the ultimate teacher.

moongoddess
03-13-2012, 23:53
Why research what you already know? Those folks didn't know they had anything to learn about backpacking, so they had no reason to do any online research. Or if they did know they needed a bit of education, they thought they could trust their local outfitter's advice (not knowing that the nice fellow at Dick's Sporting Goods who sold them their 7 lb pack and 5 lb sleeping bag has never hiked further than from his living room recliner to his refrigerator).

And even if someone DOES do online research before they buy, there are going to be some things they have to figure out on their own. No amount of online research can tell you if you're a warm or cold sleeper, or how much arch support your feet need, or whether a particular model of pack actually fits you well. So some amount of gear swapping's going to be inevitable.

rocketsocks
03-13-2012, 23:55
Could be,in some strange way of thinking there looking for absolution,a punishment if you will,a pilgrimage.Or People just buy gear,and dam-it there gonna use it if kills them.I fall into the latter.

Papa D
03-14-2012, 00:04
My feeling is that they are mostly afraid and fear (of whatever variety) breeds gross over-packing

rocketsocks
03-14-2012, 00:09
My feeling is that they are mostly afraid and fear (of whatever variety) breeds gross over-packingTrue,but I don't think most people even consider the fact that they can and do have a choice of what to carry...it just doesn't occur to most,they have brought what seems reasonable.

Maren
03-14-2012, 00:19
People are lazy when it comes to research. It's soooo hard to read reviews and ask questions. I think lots of people assume that in order to get by outside it's necessary to take miniature versions of everything in their homes. I mean, if you need it at home it must be extra important in the wilds.

Papa D
03-14-2012, 00:21
I guess - - but if I go do something new - - sailing for example (something I've never really done) - - I'm going to get some information on sailing - - like what to carry and what to wear on a sailboat - - I'm not just going to show up looking like Gilligan with a giant life preserver or simply make it up - - I think that Moon-Goddess may be on to something in the Dicks Sporting Goods - - it's a shame that people fall into that sort of trap.

moongoddess
03-14-2012, 00:24
"I think lots of people assume that in order to get by outside it's necessary to take miniature versions of everything in their homes. I mean, if you need it at home it must be extra important in the wilds."

Yes. Also, people don't stop to think that maybe their daily habits in "civilization" need to be changed for a long hike in the woods. They wear a fresh outfit every day at home, so they pack several days' worth of spare clothes so they can always have a clean outfit on the trail. They take a shower every day at home, so they pack a large solar shower for the trail. They have a nice big fluffy pillow on their bed at home, so they bring a nice, big fluffy pillow out with them on their hike. Doesn't take too much of that sort of thing to bloat a pack up to monstrous proportions.

Whack-a-mole
03-14-2012, 00:38
Hey don't knock the mouse traps. I'd get more sleep if we knocked their numbers down a little at places like Gooch Mtn Shelter. The mice there are so bold they don't even care that you are there when they start going through your stuff!!

Leanthree
03-14-2012, 01:07
I see a few reasons. Not good reasons, but reasons:
-There are plenty of group settings which teach backpacking in a more old fashioned way for either cost reasons or because its what they always have done so for ease and liability reasons they keep doing it that way.
-Large groups use heavier equipment (e.g. whisperlite, larger pots, more robust first-aid kit, hatchet) because they make more sense for 10+ people. So that is what many get used to.
Church groups or similar that are just getting people together in the woods may have older gear because they are on tight budgets so people are used to 4 person old fashioned A-frame Eureka tents.
-Bulky Ridge rests are popular with boyscouts because they are no fuss and cheap.
-Synthetic bags are better for beginners who may not know how to keep them dry or are scared off from down from the wet police
Maybe their only hiking experience was dayhiking where in most cases you checked the weather, grabbed what you have at home (cotton, heavy boots that are better for shoveling a driveway of snow) went on a 7 mile hike in the woods and were perfectly fine.
-On the hygene front, there are many people who can't get past the idea of not showering. Once they do it once it isnt a big deal, but telling someone who has showered every or every-other day of their life that they won't shower for a week will start hoarding wipes.
-I imagine the guy with the gun or the large knife takes them everywhere always. Kind of similar to taking a shower every day, hard to give up. I would say the same of the coffee drinkers out there but this would start a war.
-Just because you can google something doesnt mean you google the right thing. If you google backpacking gear, plenty of useless crap comes up. "thru-hiker gear" would be more relevant.

fiddlehead
03-14-2012, 03:48
Hey don't knock the mouse traps. I'd get more sleep if we knocked their numbers down a little at places like Gooch Mtn Shelter. The mice there are so bold they don't even care that you are there when they start going through your stuff!!

Wholehardedly agree!

As to the other stuff: Hey different strokes for different folks.
Why is your way the best?
As hot as I hear it is down south right now, I see nothing wrong with carrying a cotton shirt either.

The gun scares me bit but, even the buck knife is taught in boy scouts I believe.
To each his own.

fiddlehead
03-14-2012, 03:51
Whistles, sunglasses, sunscreen, water filters, profile maps,..................now that's the goofy ****.

Spokes
03-14-2012, 05:11
?.......What I simply don't understand is that with all the information available why people continue to hike wearing big heavy boots, heavy army pants, cotton shirts, and carry absurd things like pillows and lap-tops, and buck knives on their belts, and guns (yep - saw one) - - hanging haphazardly off the back of their packs swinging to and fro. Lumpy at Neels told me that they ship 9000 pounds of gear "home" for folks each season. So why, with all the information available are people so darn bent on making their hikes essentially miserable? At least back in the day (before the internet) hikers had to be personally mentored to catch up with the learning curve - - now, I just don't get it. ....

You forgot paracord survival bracelets- ha! What you described sounds more like a bunch of car campers trying to be thru hikers. No wonder there's such a high drop out rate on the trail.

I think it's a combination of people's "fear factor" and a good amount of salesmanship on part of the outfitters that leads to such foolery.

Cheers!

moytoy
03-14-2012, 05:44
all this dissing is fine....then you go and diss my Chuck Taylors....:(

Wil
03-14-2012, 05:56
I have even known people (and I know this is impossible to believe) who don't carry hammocks.

positrail
03-14-2012, 06:16
Yeah, I dont understand why folks wouldn't research beforehand. I'm an avid day hiker, but through reading about AT strategy and gear recommendations, I've learned that long distance hiking is a completely different story. 4/1 will mark the start of my journey. It is my first attempt at a thru hike. I'm absorbing as much info as i can from white blaze and other resources. I figure it will make the adventure so much more enjoyable. Here's to a 25 lb pack!

Spokes
03-14-2012, 06:41
Yeah, I dont understand why folks wouldn't research beforehand. .....

I agree. You'll be way ahead of the learning curve when you hit the trail. Prolly look at all those hikers carrying 65 lb. packs, shake your head, and say "Bless their heart".

Theosus
03-14-2012, 07:10
I think some of it is the fault of experienced hikers telling their bad tales. I've read people who take three or four ways of making fire. It may not seem like much but all those little film cans of fire supplies will be bulky. There there is the water filtration thing. I've been told by someone who's been hiking a while, "I carry a filter, aqua Mira as a backup, and of course I can boil as a third backup. Then there are the "I carry X cooking equipment so I can bake rolls and cinnamon buns 20 miles from the road" guys. Then there is the "be careful hiking solo, you need to make sure you have the following medical supplies and a SPOT" warnings
So is it really just the confused Dicks salesman, or is it experienced hikers who've had bad experiences and problems that lead newbies to think "I need backup systems for everything", and I need to be prepared not just for my hike, but for a real 'I'm lost in the woods' Man Vs. Wild scenario?

I had to stop buying crap, step back and look at my stuff. I wanted another pot, but my cooking involves boiling water for meals in a sack. One pot is plenty. I wanted the higher first aid kit, but went with a small one and added a two inch victorinox knife. It has awesome tweezers, and a small blade and scissors.

I cut down my paracord from 100' to 50.I'm not going to bear bag THAT high, and that big lump o' rope gets heavy if it's wet. I think I've got my filtration thing cut down to a single in-line Sawyer filter and gravity bag. Smaller and lighter and less bulky than a pump.

But there's still time to buy more stuff.

Spokes
03-14-2012, 07:26
2mm nylon cord is all you need to hang a bear bag or set up a clothes drying line. It sure beats carrying any length of paracord.

JAK
03-14-2012, 07:31
It takes a few hikes to realize the difference between a consumer and a hiker.
It also helps to be older and overweight. Hills also help alot.

Maren
03-14-2012, 08:41
There's definitely a learning curve. I came from a family a avid indoors people. When I met my husband 10 years ago I was rather intrigued by his outdoor gear. I clearly remember teasing him about his Camelback and laughing hysterically at his biking outfits. The first time he took me to an REI I was in awe and completely lost. My first impulse, admittedly, was to buy every gadget in sight. There's no denying there's some really cool stuff out there. He let me make a few mistakes until I caught on to less being more when it comes to comfort and safety. Fast forward to now and every purchase takes weeks of research, each piece of gear must be absolutely necessary, and I've developed a product BS-meter that borders on rabid skepticism. Not only am I a much happier hiker, I'm more confident, as well. Probably more obnoxious, too. (Very few people give a flying f*** about the thought process that went into my tent choice.)

Jeff
03-14-2012, 08:56
Folks who never hiked up and down mountains tend to underestimate the effort required.:)

Storm
03-14-2012, 09:20
Another thought on the subject is price. Many people just can't afford the extra expense to buy the lightest equipment. I would really like to have a cuben fiber tent but just can't bring myself to shell out the money. Seems like the lighter you want to go the more it costs. I'm very thankfull I found this site. I will be under 30 pounds for my start with food and water and I think that is going to be the best I can do. Hopefully these old legs can get used to carrying it up and down the trail. And I love my whistle.

q-tip
03-14-2012, 09:21
My first AT pack was 38 lbs. And I thought I was pretty light. After the first 100 miles, I couldn't stand up straight. I was 10 lbs lighter by Harpers Ferry. Fast forward, my current 3 season bag total for my Colorado Trail hike this summer excluding food & water is 13.83 and my summer total is 12.13. I cut out 5.4 lbs. from my pack literally one ounce at a time by evaluating each and every piece of gear and looking for lightweight alternatives. I still carry some extra clothes and a Neo Air instead of the blue pad. But, I get some peace of mind....

Experience and diligence have made the difference. Also, I added up the cost for my Colorado Trail pack just for the heck of it. I accumulated the equipment over several years, but the cost was $3,100. I buy the best for the long term, but a new hiker might not be ready or willing to get the specialized equipment it takes to lighten the load on the AT....HYOH

Rain Man
03-14-2012, 09:24
Whistles, ....

I just discovered last evening that my head lamp has a built-in whistle on the strap! Never knew that, though I did know my pack sternum strap does.

Rain:sunMan

.

Rain Man
03-14-2012, 09:31
...y absurd things like pillows ... and guns .... I saw a lot of wet miserable people.

Hey now!!! Don't go making fun of pillows! (unless you mean the full-size ones from a bed at home) :)

Guns? That's just being an insecure, scaredy-cat. Or, to be Freudian, it might be called "compensating!" LOL

The "miserable" part starts at home, when folks are so fearful and ignorant that they have to put all that stuff in/on their packs.

But the really good news is that they even set foot in the woods in the first place. So many Americans are WAY too scared ... and lazy. More good news is that the longer they stay in the woods, the more they'll realize they don't need to be so afraid.

So, I actually give them a lot of credit for venturing into the woods in spite of their ignorance and fears. Everyone has to start somewhere. I say good for them! Now, if they are still carrying those things after some years, now that's just plain sad. But, ... hike your own hike.

Rain:sunMan

.

Capt Nat
03-14-2012, 09:38
I'm the guy the OP was talking about. I'm old, out of shape and I feel every ounce. And that every ounce hurts. But, I have a large closet full of cool camping gear and gadgets and I want to take all of it. I miss my queen size inflatable mattress in camp. It's nice to have an axe and saw. What good is having a $300 rambo knife if I leave it at home? Every hike is a struggle for me. I can't physically carry it, I hate to be without it. I've got great rain gear. I've got great cold weather gear. I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. Someone please just kill me with the rock, otherwise the load will...

JAK
03-14-2012, 09:45
The best way to get rid of seriously overweight gear is to sell it cheap or give it to a still in shape 20 year old that can carry it. They are better off with light gear, but they won't notice the wieght so much, and are often foolish and macho enough that they will want to load themselves up anyway.

JAK
03-14-2012, 09:45
Don't give it to teenagers though. That would be child abuse.

Spokes
03-14-2012, 09:47
... I'm old, out of shape and I feel every ounce. And that every ounce hurts...

When I was planning my thru hike an old thru hiker said "You need to start thinking in terms of ounces.".

At the time I had no idea what he meant. Once I started the trail it hit home.

Mags
03-14-2012, 09:58
I agree. You'll be way ahead of the learning curve when you hit the trail. Prolly look at all those hikers carrying 65 lb. packs, shake your head, and say "Bless their heart".

Except they are out there right now.

We are not.

I'm a bit envious.

Some of these people will drop out sure....

But others will flourish, have a good time and learn.

HEll, my own first trip (http://www.pmags.com/big-knife-too-much-food-out-of-shape-my-first-backpacking-trip) was a mini-disaster, too. :O

Like to think I've become a more capable outdoors person since then. :)

Sure some of the people starting from Springer with their own "Rambo sized knife" will eventually thrive, too.

Aquaman12
03-14-2012, 09:59
First Ill say that i am fairly new to backpacking and will be leaving apr 9 for my first thru hike, my wife and i together. We spent about two years researching and testing(extensively) gear and technique to prepare for our thru hike. Our packs will be around 20 pounds each. I dont understand either how some can not reasearch enough to not take some things i see as useless. I do believe in HYOH so whatever gets you to katahdin. They way we saw it was, if this is going to be my life for up to 6 months, we need to make things as comfortable as possible. We see that as carrying a light pack and creating the least amount of resistence(go with the flow and make due where you can). I guess if someone else asks themselves that question, they might see comfortable as taking their big pillow or their laptop. Not saying that i agree with that, but again, if thats what gets you to katahdin then so be it. I think most people would benefit from a light pack(load wise and mentally). I also believe a lot of newcomers cant even fathom doing away with some items that they may see as neccesary, due to a lack of confidence in backpacking or even themselves. Either way, HYOH and reach your end goal, just make sure you're having fun doing it.

SouthMark
03-14-2012, 10:03
I like what a former member here, Sgt Rock, says about pack weight, "the heavier my pack the more I like to camp, the lighter my pack the more I like to hike."

vamelungeon
03-14-2012, 10:08
If these people are having fun why does it matter to anyone else what they are carrying?

moongoddess
03-14-2012, 10:08
But the really good news is that they even set foot in the woods in the first place. So many Americans are WAY too scared ... and lazy. More good news is that the longer they stay in the woods, the more they'll realize they don't need to be so afraid.

So, I actually give them a lot of credit for venturing into the woods in spite of their ignorance and fears. Everyone has to start somewhere. I say good for them!

+1000! Our mass media constantly drums into us that we should be afraid, be very afraid, for danger lurks around every corner... And it's not just the news which does this. Just look at the various nature/outdoor programs on cable TV: they're full of frightening, dangerous animals, horrific weather, terrible accidents. They can make it seem that you must be "Survivorman" if you just want to just go for a safe walk in the woods. And these days not many people are growing up on farms or in very small towns, where nature is close by. Increasingly we're creatures of suburbia or the big city. Most people are understandably nervous about unfamiliar places. No wonder they try to bring all the amenities of civilization with them in their packs! The good news is that a little experience is enough to dispel a lot of fear.

moongoddess
03-14-2012, 10:18
If these people are having fun why does it matter to anyone else what they are carrying?

It doesn't. But in many cases, the people in question quickly stop having fun and leave the trail, and overly-heavy packs and/or inappropriate gear choices play a big part in that. Most people don't find it much fun to be cold, tired, and in pain. It's sad when someone's long-awaited vacation is spoiled needlessly.

Blue Jay
03-14-2012, 10:19
Except they are out there right now.

We are not.

I'm a bit envious.

Some of these people will drop out sure....

But others will flourish, have a good time and learn.

HEll, my own first trip (http://www.pmags.com/big-knife-too-much-food-out-of-shape-my-first-backpacking-trip) was a mini-disaster, too. :O

Like to think I've become a more capable outdoors person since then. :)

Sure some of the people starting from Springer with their own "Rambo sized knife" will eventually thrive, too.

This is a great post. My question is why would anyone care at all what other people carry? I find it much more weird that this web site is sooooo absolutely obsessed with what some one else has on THEIR person. Not once in all the years I have hiked has someone asked me to carry their stuff, NOT ONCE.

Blue Jay
03-14-2012, 10:21
Most people don't find it much fun to be cold, tired, and in pain.

And those people are NOT long distance hikers because sooner or later you will be cold, tired and in pain and having a fantastic time.

Zigzag
03-14-2012, 10:24
Well I must admit that I do have a sizeable gear closet at home. However much of my older gear from the 70's has been going on consignment at Ragged Mountain (& selling). Started making the conversion to lighter weight gear about 7 years ago afetr getting blisters in my heavy high boots dayhiking in the Smokies. Picked up Ray Jardines book & Ryan Jordan's Backpacking light book for free (I was working in retail for the AMC at Pinkham, got sample books in & my boss could care less about backpacking so he gave them to me). Now I go into my local stores in North Conway with a kitchen scale, weigh everything to a tenth of an oz. I never think twice about what I carry for a day hike & even in the summer I carry 8-10lbs dayhiking. Nothing like living in the Whites to make you aware of safety. Working front desk & trail info at the AMC at both Pinkham & Crawford Notches, well I can tell plenty of stories. & don't even get me started about stories after working for the MT. Wash. Auto Road for the last 7 years. You talk about carrying 2 much; I don't even try to lecture people hiking up Tuckerman's dressed all in cotton, already soaked. No pack, already drank their 20oz dasani but they have their cellphone ready to call for help. I used to backpack with 40-45 lbs. but am starting NOBO on the 24th. My wife & I are baseweight at 15 each. We could go lighter but don't want to give up our neo's & air pillows. Or 2 jackets each. or lots of other things. & yes, I am thinking of carrying a few mouse traps, I figure I won't make a dent in the population but think I will wake up in the morning feeling better after nailing a few of the little suckers.

Zigzag
03-14-2012, 10:28
Forgot to mention that more than one friend has been surprised to hear that I am not packing a gun on my hike!

Tom Murphy
03-14-2012, 10:54
[QUOTE=Maren;1266884]I came from a family of avid indoors people. /QUOTE]

Thank you for this, just perfect.

As for why I choose to bring a number of luxuries:
I enjoy the camp as much as the hike.
I measure my hikes based on the number of hours in the forests rather than the number of miles walked or peaks bagged.
I like to cook in the backcountry.
I want to enable UL hikers to feel superior to me.
It provides an excuse for walking slowly and stopping to take lots of pictures.

I have learned a lot from reading UL and LW hiking blogs and from that I have learned to reduce my pack weight significantly which does make for a more enjoyable hike.

BUT UL fanatics are as borish as the packmule fanantics and the hammock fanatics.

JAK
03-14-2012, 10:54
Whatever you do, don't buy your hiking gear from Goldman Sachs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/business/a-public-exit-from-goldman-sachs-hits-a-wounded-wall-street.html

turtle fast
03-14-2012, 11:03
Because you NEED all that extra gear. I need that double headed axe and my hobnail boots...to go where the timber is tall, and tack on the 12 pack of beer in your pack too. Anyone have a pack ox handy...preferably in blue.

Mr. Regulator
03-14-2012, 11:06
No message.

vamelungeon
03-14-2012, 11:07
[QUOTE=Maren;1266884]I came from a family of avid indoors people. /QUOTE]

Thank you for this, just perfect.

As for why I choose to bring a number of luxuries:
I enjoy the camp as much as the hike.
I measure my hikes based on the number of hours in the forests rather than the number of miles walked or peaks bagged.
I like to cook in the backcountry.
I want to enable UL hikers to feel superior to me.
It provides an excuse for walking slowly and stopping to take lots of pictures.

I have learned a lot from reading UL and LW hiking blogs and from that I have learned to reduce my pack weight significantly which does make for a more enjoyable hike.

BUT UL fanatics are as borish as the packmule fanantics and the hammock fanatics.
I agree completely! I learn a lot here but geez Louise! "Boorish" is the word!

moongoddess
03-14-2012, 11:13
BUT UL fanatics are as borish as the packmule fanantics and the hammock fanatics.

Fanatics of any stripe are boorish (and boring as well). No one needs to apologize for carrying luxuries! But there's a difference between thoughtful packing (of any type) and the sort of loads the OP was commenting on. Most of those folks simply hadn't given any consideration to just how much weight their bodies can reasonably be expected to carry over a long distance, and what things they REALLY need/want on their hike. And (as I said in my first post on this thread) I think that's because they just didn't realize that pack weight was something they seriously needed to think about before they set off on their adventure.

Feral Bill
03-14-2012, 11:14
No one has mentioned that those big, heavy packs from Dana, Gregory, etc. make it possibe for very heavy loads to feel totally comfortable on your back. Moving it uphill is, of course, another matter. I suspect average loads for experienced people peaked sometime after the introduction of padded waistbelts and before the introduction of UL gear.

BlackJack1
03-14-2012, 11:15
My feeling is that they are mostly afraid and fear (of whatever variety) breeds gross over-packing


Well I have been on the trail severly under weight and paid a high price with froze bitten fingers, hard cold raw noodles, and wet clothes because I had no stove and only 1 pair of clothes which I was wearing. Even experienced hikers buy gear and mail stuff home at or after Neel's Gap.

turtle fast
03-14-2012, 11:33
Most of it is due to anxiety on part of hikers whom think they NEED the items. You tend to rationalize the need for an object even though you may only use it a few times like a hatchet or laptop computer. You then lose sight of the weight and it adds up.... I tend to think a pack shakedown is a good thing before you leave on a hike or on a NOBO thru its almost a crime not to get one at Mountain Crossings...a second set of eyes really helps.

MJW155
03-14-2012, 11:39
Number 1 reason is ignorance. I had always wanted to hike the AT but didn't make my decision until about 3 months ago. Until then, I had been in Boy Scouts for 7 years, been backpacking on 2-3 week trips 6 or 7 times, and have gone on weekend trips at least 100 times. Carrying a lot of weight was always a given. I'm 6'4" and weigh 275 lbs. Carrying 40 or 50 lbs. was never a problem.

When I decided to do this, I knew I had to do research. But it wasn't about the weight. It was about getting supplies on the trail, maps, etc. Along the way, I learned that in order to increase my odds of making it to Maine, I had to go lighter. I switched out my sleeping bag and tent for a down bag and tarp tent. Right there, I saved over 5 lbs. My base weight w/o food is 18.5 lbs. Three months ago it probably would have been 40 lbs.

When you go camping and backpacking 5 or 6x a year, it doesn't really cross your mind that you need to go lighter. It's ingrained in your head that you will carry weight. I'm sure if you ask the random person how much weight a thru-hiker carries, you'll hear them say 50 or 60 lbs. if not more.

My question isn't why people carry so much stuff. It's why don't they educate themselves before doing a hike like this? I mean even if you are just looking up where the trail starts and ends, you can't really miss out on learning something basic as carrying less weight. So when people show up on a hike like this w/ that much weight, I want to ask why they didn't do research. Because had they done so, they wouldn't be carrying so much weight.

TyTy
03-14-2012, 12:43
My coworker is preparing to hike the GA section of the AT and he even has read Mike Cleeland's book, talked with me about my 10-12 lb base weight and still went out and bought a 3 lb sleeping bag, a 5 lb 2 man dome tent (for just himself), and a 6lb Gregory backpack. His pack will be 40-50 lbs before it is over. His logic is to save money and he just likes haing a bigger tent, he wants a supportive pack, and he wanted the extra room of the 2 man tent, he just likes dome tents better. He also mentions that he wants to buy gear that will last so no skimpy TarpTent is gonna do.

I think it all sounds good until you put it on your back and go hiking.

When I frist started I had an old Gregory 7lb pack. I started buying (luckily all from REI) and when I got to 35 lbs at about 75% of what I wanted to bring (no food or water) I decided to load it up and put it on my back. I went to lift it up and said WHOAAAAAA NOW! I need to stop here a second this ain't gonna be fun. I had heard of light backpacking so I googled it, came upon www.backpackinglight.com, ended up returning most of what I had bought, sold that old pack, several spreadsheets later here I am at 10.7lb base weight for my next trip and a lot happier when I go.

One argument that convinced me is that you don't see hardly anyone that goes lighter and regrets it, only people that have never gone light sticking to their guns and you have to figure they are defending their positions not wanting to admit they are wrong, have to buy all new gear, etc. I see a lot of this 'man-up' attitude but to me that is like doing something the hard way for the sake of doing it the hard way which amkes zero sense to me. At 10.7 lbs I gaurantee I will be warm, comfortable, sleep well with a pillow and a nice pad, I will have fire, stove, pot and warm food...why would I want to carry more? What do you have that I don't (except maybe a chair :)

JAK
03-14-2012, 12:51
The mistake I made, twice, was to assume that simply because they sell the stuff for backpacking, that I must need it for backpacking. First time was when I was 24 years old, 6' 160 pounds, and didn't really notice the weight. I actually lent the pack and gear to a girlfriend that was only 5 feet tall. Boy was she pissed, and I still didn't clue in. Second time was when I was about 38, 200 pounds or so, on a winter trek. After getting snowed in misdirected a little and trudging an extra 2 days something was starting to sink in. Then a friend mentioned this idea of going lighter, and with my engineering background, and competitive sailing background, finally, LIGHT BULB !!! I still haven't taken it to any extreme. What I have done is left an extreme behind. I'm also alot more skeptical, even cynical, about _anything_ that people try to sell me, and anything I decide I want to buy. I look for simpler, cheaper, solutions, and they are usually very light.

ddanko2
03-14-2012, 12:55
Well, if the machete and gun carrying, cotton and boot wearing hiker makes it to Katahdin, who cares. HYOH

TyTy
03-14-2012, 13:05
BTW, one of my friends has this macho attitude of 'who cares, just load it up and lets go' or 'what difference does 5 or 10 lbs make?'

Now that I am down to about 10lbs base weight I plan to ask if he would carry my pack for me since 10lbs "does not make a difference" :)

patman25
03-14-2012, 13:11
I'm starting my through hike attempt around May 1, and I've been reading this forums for a bit and have gotten some good advice as well as some bad(for me) advice. It took me a while to realize HYOH also means, GGTFY(Get Gear That Fits You). I started out buying some really ultralight stuff, then went and did some test hikes and just wasn't comfortable AT ALL! So after more research I realized that I would have to go up in weight to get gear that fit me. And after I made some new gear purchases, went on more test hikes, I realized that while yes it was a bit heavier, when I do need to sleep/rest I will get a much better quality of sleep/rest which will allow me to keep hauling those few extra lbs for miles each day. So I view it as an overall quality of life. I respect the people who can go UL with tiny pads and barely there shelter...that's not me. My best chance to finish my through hike attempt is to be able to get good quality sleep/rest at night, and to do that I will carry a little extra weight. And before you say, "You need to do more research!!", I promise you, I've done my research. I'll be leaving with my pack weighing in around 25lbs base weight, and 35lbs with food and water. That's heavy to some, not really that heavy to me. And if I feel like I can do it, I may tack on more food and skip a few trail towns because I'd rather spend more time on the trail. Just my 2cents. :)

WingedMonkey
03-14-2012, 13:25
I will never understand why experienced hikers flock to Georgia during such the crowded start season to meet and greet. I guess if you are lonely and feel a need to "share" with the newbies it might make sense.

I don't re-visit that section in the early spring, I leave the crowds to the crowds.

:sun

Creek Dancer
03-14-2012, 13:32
I really don't care what someone else had in their pack, but I do feel sorry for them when carrying too much weight negatively affects their journeys.

Can anyone here honestly say that they never made a wrong gear choice? I know I have.

btfire
03-14-2012, 13:51
I hike relatively light by some standards and I have hiked relatively heavy in the past. I learned to lighten my pack long before I researched anything and it was done simply by learning as I went. I have seen heavy packs on many and only once thought about questioning their gear choices since it is their burden to carry. The one time I did question gear was last summer north of Newfound Gap when I passed a hiker on my way to Icewater Springs. I passed him less than a mile from the shelter and beat him there by almost two hours. He had a pack that must have weighed 10 lbs. on its own before the probably 80+ lbs. inside. Strapped to this pack he had a typical school backpack that carried his food since he had no room for it inside his main pack. When he got to the shelter in the rain, wearing only cotton clothing, he was miserably soaked and cold. There were three other hikers in the shelter that night who were all fairly light. I wanted to speak up, but I kept my mouth shut until he asked us about our gear. He was going to keep his hike (slated from Newfound Gap to Roan Mountain) going and just get to a store from Davenport Gap and change his outlook on hiking. He learned on his own and four lighter hikers did not give him grief over his gear choices but helped him a lot once he started asking questions. Some of his contents: three changes of clothes, 10 rolls of TP, food for at least 20 days (resupply never even crossed his mind), a military E-tool, a plastic salad bowl for washing, a complete Coleman mess kit, and too many more things to mention. His attitude was surprisingly great on hiking with his little education and miserable situation and he was happy that we did not make fun of him. I have no idea if he made it to Davenport Gap since I left early the next morning and went there that day and on to home.

We who have hiked for a long time often laugh at what we see carried by others. In this day and age of instant information from the interwebs we forget that not everyone reads the different sites that we frequent. Therefore, not everyone even thinks about going lighter since they take what they think they need. Some will be miserable and never hike again while others (me included) will evaluate their choices and lighten their loads with each and every hike. My first overnight hike I carried probably 50 lbs. with food and water. On my first long-distance hike I carried about 30 lbs. with food and water. By my third long-distance hike I had a base-weight of 12 lbs. When cold weather is certain I probably have about 15 lbs. now and during warm or hot weather I come in just under 10 lbs. (my cold-weather sleeping bag is nowhere near light and is 3 lbs. 10 oz. in addition to needing a compression sack and separate compression straps to fit into my pack). Going light is a personal choice and a state of mind. Many will do it on their own without ever consulting others while others will seek out information and analyze the sources of that information to determine whether it is a valid source. We will see these people on trails across the country in various states of "light" and by commenting on their loads we can either make them resistant or we can enlighten them. As with anything we do in life, hiking is personal. What works for me may never work for you and vice-versa.

TyTy
03-14-2012, 14:23
BTW it's not just Dick's Sporting Goods, salespeople at REI won't hesitate to walk up to someone through the store and set them up with 15 to 20 lbs of big 4 and 5 to 10 pounds of other gear. Those folks go home with 20 to 30lbs before adding extra clothes, cosmetics, food, water. You can get up to 50lbs this way pretty quick.

One of the biggest mistakes you can make and I have seen it happen in REI is people walk in, go over to the backpacks (they are going 'backpacking') and buy a nice, big, comfy 7lb aluminum internal frame pack then walk around the store filling it up. Kind of the backwards way to do it.

TyTy
03-14-2012, 14:26
One last thing...

I think the first thing you should buy when going backpacking is a digital scale. The second thing you should do is go to REI, put 30 to 40lbs of gear in a 7lb backpack, put it on and walk around the store. Then put it all back, go home and research how to do it with at least a 20 lb base weight. Anybody can be comfortable at 20 lbs for a low price tag.

Feral Bill
03-14-2012, 14:31
One last thing...

I think the first thing you should buy when going backpacking is a digital scale. The second thing you should do is go to REI, put 30 to 40lbs of gear in a 7lb backpack, put it on and walk around the store. Then put it all back, go home and research how to do it with at least a 20 lb base weight. Anybody can be comfortable at 20 lbs for a low price tag. I'd further suggest going up and down the stores stairs, if it has any, with that pack load. Also, you can get perfectly decent light gear at REI, you just need to know what you want, or get lucky with the sales staff.

moytoy
03-14-2012, 14:32
I like what a former member here, Sgt Rock, says about pack weight, "the heavier my pack the more I like to camp, the lighter my pack the more I like to hike."
Sgt rock will surely smile when he reads that he is a former member. :)

Theosus
03-14-2012, 15:26
If these people are having fun why does it matter to anyone else what they are carrying?

Could some of it be the same exclusionist one-upmanship attitudes that exist in a lot of life? Some people think they are "better than you" because they have a nicer car, a prettier girlfriend, a greener lawn, a bigger house, a nicer TV, or a lighter pack. "My pack weighs 2 pounds less than yours, you must be an idiot".

I tend to hope that's not it, because those types of people are best unexpectedly punched in the mouth and left to whimper in the corner (or if you dont want to risk a fight or arrest, give them a "lazy cake", unwrapped, in a ziplock bag). I hope its more of the voice of experience, letting heavyweighters know that there are some things that can be left behind, some ways to make life easier when walking a hundred miles, and some ways to make hiking more enjoyable for yourself.
Im a heavyweighter. I dont want to spend $3000 going ultralight, but Im not thru-hiking either. My stuff isn't the latest and greatest, and never will be. I might even have some (oh the horror!) wal-mart or Coleman stuff in my pack. But when we pass on the trail, I'll smile and nod, whatever my pack weighs.

Brady
03-14-2012, 15:27
so i should leave scrabble and my rifle at home?

JAK
03-14-2012, 15:41
Depends on how serious you are at scrabble.

quilteresq
03-14-2012, 15:47
You don't go to a basketball game and see real players wearing Chuck Taylors or to a football game and see leather helmets. People showing up to other activities are more or less "with-it" - it seems that new backpackers just make a bunch of garbage up -- "hmmm, think I carry this item - - a giant box of wet-wipes, a female urinal, "a couple" of books, a huge 100' hank of rope, an EMTs 5-pound first aid kit, a rifle, ammo, army style steel canteens, a mousetrap, full strength climbing carabiners, board games, - - I mean I saw people suffering through carrying goofy stuff. I don't advocate super ultra light for new folks -certainly not GO-FREEZE style - - just sort of a normal sane rig - - I saw too few.

Hey! Papa D! I'm assuming you don't have girl parts here! Please don't criticize women for carrying female urinals. They can make a hike a LOT easier! It adds up to a lot of squats without it. ;-)

Half Note
03-14-2012, 17:42
Depends on how serious you are at scrabble.:D Nicely played sir.

MuddyWaters
03-14-2012, 18:51
You are surprised that the average newbie who sets foot on the AT represents the average american? Yes, it is sad.
T

rjjones
03-14-2012, 19:02
I'll be honest,i want all that stuff when i go hiking.I'd bring a microwave and a tv.I just dont want to carry it all!Hey,get out of your tent,Seinfelds on :rolleyes:.

miloandotis
03-14-2012, 19:34
Boy was I glad to read some of these responses. I was begining to think everyone at WB were all I am a god UL and if you don't do like me you suck-types (from birth to boot...who took advise from everyone before them without question and never had to learn by their own trial and error before buying the right equipment... and only the right equipment at the perfect weight)

And my son and I take our travel size Scrabble everywhere!

Heald
03-14-2012, 19:43
It's difficult to separate yourself from worldly possessions. One of the rewarding aspects of the AT is that to walk it is in many respects to transform one's self.
It turns a man who once was humping 70lbs of shiny crap over Blood Mountain, into a man who is spry, picking thru a garbage can at some mountain gap road crossing.
I rolled thru GA sobo in early spring many times after being out all winter. Fresh nobo's would eye us like you would a panhandler on the street. Often I said to them "take a good look buddy, because pretty soon it'll be like looking in the mirror".

Wise Old Owl
03-14-2012, 19:53
well they didn't come to WB first.

Tuckahoe
03-14-2012, 20:18
There is always going to be those that are clueless because of a lack of experience, and most of these folks learn along the way. Folks that get into hobbies want to learn so that they can improve and enjoy their experiences. There will also be those that just cant be helped and you let them go on their way.

That being said, when I read threads like this one and the posts within, what I come away with is not so much concern for the less experienced, but that there are a lot of whiney a**ed people who are more worried about what someone else is doing rather than worrying about themselves. Or someone blathering about how someone doesnt hike like I do, so they are wrong or that person isnt light weight enough.

Me personally? I like wearing good sturdy boots. I wear boots in my daily life, Im wearing a pair right now. I dont wear sneakers or low cut shoes. So why would I wear something different? And yeah I love to wear a pair of cotton cargo pants when hiking in the summer... yep I dont do it right. And oh my god!!! I have an external frame pack.

As I am getting older, I am less concerned about being as hardcore as I was in my younger days. I really like to get good comfortable sleep, so yes I have a pillow. Yeah I could use my clothes bag, but then again I am trying to carry less clothes. And to those that have issues with Scouts using Ridgerests... Really?


Some folks should really worry less about others, and enjoy their own hikes.

vamelungeon
03-14-2012, 20:26
There is always going to be those that are clueless because of a lack of experience, and most of these folks learn along the way. Folks that get into hobbies want to learn so that they can improve and enjoy their experiences. There will also be those that just cant be helped and you let them go on their way.

That being said, when I read threads like this one and the posts within, what I come away with is not so much concern for the less experienced, but that there are a lot of whiney a**ed people who are more worried about what someone else is doing rather than worrying about themselves. Or someone blathering about how someone doesnt hike like I do, so they are wrong or that person isnt light weight enough.

Me personally? I like wearing good sturdy boots. I wear boots in my daily life, Im wearing a pair right now. I dont wear sneakers or low cut shoes. So why would I wear something different? And yeah I love to wear a pair of cotton cargo pants when hiking in the summer... yep I dont do it right. And oh my god!!! I have an external frame pack.

As I am getting older, I am less concerned about being as hardcore as I was in my younger days. I really like to get good comfortable sleep, so yes I have a pillow. Yeah I could use my clothes bag, but then again I am trying to carry less clothes. And to those that have issues with Scouts using Ridgerests... Really?


Some folks should really worry less about others, and enjoy their own hikes.

I lack your ability of expression but you said what I would like to have said.
I carry a Ridgerest too. LOL

JAK
03-14-2012, 20:34
Some folks should really worry less about others, and enjoy their own hikes.Amen to that. No sense losing sleep that some salesperson someplace is selling a 7 pound pack to someone already 70 pounds overweight, and God knows what to go in it. Hey, the salesperson has a family, and there are far more important things to lose sleep about in this world, like stoves and hammocks and hiking sticks, and some dog someplace having way too much fun hiking some part of the AT without a leash. If we really want people to lighten up, we gotta lighten up.

JAK
03-14-2012, 20:44
Hate to say it but it isn't just hiking gear that people waste alot of time and money and natural resources on, unneccessarily. If we fought WWII this was the German/Japanese would have been shaking hands on the Mississippi. Not sure what makes us think we can beat China this way. But again, its not really the hiking gear, its all the other stuff. Hiking gear is as good a place as any to learn the lesson though.

Not sure what would happen if we all started being more sensible. Not gonna happen I suppose.

Malto
03-14-2012, 20:49
I have been doing long trail runs up on the AT in GA and I have spent many hours wondering how in this information age there is so little apparent knowledge of how to make a comfortable load. I came to the conclusion it is because all the trail journals list the gear that hikers WILL take and few go back and talk about what they ended up finishing with. So future hiker make the same mistakes that past hikers have learned.

But I don't want folks to stop carrying their Towers of Power. It would reduce the entertainment I get from watching them look completely miserable as they trudge up the hills.

paintedstars
03-14-2012, 21:20
I just read this entire post and already knew everything about how importance weight is, but I'm carrying my martin backpacker no matter what. I'm already at 25 lbs without food and water. SO BE IT, let me be the one to learn my lesson, or carry that weight and burden. I'm documenting my whole journey with artistic aspects so I don't care what anyone says here. HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE.

www.nathanielmaloney.com

Heald
03-14-2012, 21:47
I just read this entire post and already knew everything about how importance weight is, but I'm carrying my martin backpacker no matter what. I'm already at 25 lbs without food and water. SO BE IT, let me be the one to learn my lesson, or carry that weight and burden. I'm documenting my whole journey with artistic aspects so I don't care what anyone says here. HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE.

www.nathanielmaloney.com

Suddenly I miss the ole hide a rock in the hikers pack trick.

Capt Nat
03-14-2012, 22:00
I've never long distanced hiked. I've done numerous 2 week stretches on the FL trail, flat but sometimes wading in swamps. I get the whole weight thing. I don't want to go UL. I'm man enough to carry the weight. For me, it's not about the speed I can make, but trying to find the balance between enjoying the hike and enjoying the camping. I'm looking at about 24 lbs base and looking to get lighter but if going a bit heavier makes my experience better I'll accept that. If your goal is to go UL very fast with big mile days and finish first, I'll try to get out of your way. I find that someone is always faster, lighter, better, more experienced. I'm not competing so they can win and I'll applaud them.

paintedstars
03-14-2012, 22:02
I like your photography...did you ever consider carrying a SLR camera on the AT?

trucker2015
03-14-2012, 22:03
I agree. You'll be way ahead of the learning curve when you hit the trail. Prolly look at all those hikers carrying 65 lb. packs, shake your head, and say "Bless their heart".

I was one of them people 15 years ago. But I didn't have the net.

garlic08
03-14-2012, 22:18
On the AT, pack weight just doesn't matter all that much. The average hiker can load up 40 pounds, hike 12 miles a day for 180 days, and be a successful thru hiker.

If you want to see something interesting, look at the difference between the average PCT or CDT starter and the average AT starter.

Papa D, I was also pretty amazed at the loads I saw in GA on my AT thru, after hiking the Western trails. By the second half of the AT, things looked a little more reasonable.

Heald
03-15-2012, 02:18
I like your photography...did you ever consider carrying a SLR camera on the AT?

Thanks. I did actually carry one in 96, although I sent it home in VT. I carry a DSLR with me whenever I hit the trail now, for video purposes (mostly).

The link below this post is where I post that stuff.

Amanita
03-15-2012, 11:11
My goal is to reach the end of a trip with nothing in my pack I wish I'd left behind, and nothing left behind that I really wish I'd brought. So far the only thing left behind that I missed was my stove, and only for the 1 day it was raining. Other than that, I believe I'll continue to move slowly towards the ultralight end of the spectrum.

lunchbx
03-15-2012, 11:23
'Cause they don't know any better.....end of thread.

randyg45
03-15-2012, 12:50
Papa D, I'm curious about your personal evolution as a hiker.
Do you still carry everything you started with?

flemdawg1
03-15-2012, 13:38
I just read this entire post and already knew everything about how importance weight is, but I'm carrying my martin backpacker no matter what. I'm already at 25 lbs without food and water. SO BE IT, let me be the one to learn my lesson, or carry that weight and burden. I'm documenting my whole journey with artistic aspects so I don't care what anyone says here. HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE.

www.nathanielmaloney.com (http://www.nathanielmaloney.com)

Have you considered a Guitalele instead of the Martin Backpacker?
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Guitar-Ukulele-Guitalele--GL1/dp/B004N6RBWW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331832702&sr=8-1

Feral Bill
03-15-2012, 14:17
I just read this entire post and already knew everything about how importance weight is, but I'm carrying my martin backpacker no matter what. I'm already at 25 lbs without food and water. SO BE IT, let me be the one to learn my lesson, or carry that weight and burden. I'm documenting my whole journey with artistic aspects so I don't care what anyone says here. HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE.

www.nathanielmaloney.com (http://www.nathanielmaloney.com) Perhaps you might care to lose weight elsewhere to accomodate the guitar and a weatherproof case. Then you could still be at a reasonable weight and enjoy your music.

kayak karl
03-15-2012, 14:24
i don't think all hikers are like the ones on WB. i think some think of hiking the AT on Monday and leave on Friday. gathering what gear they can and heading out with barely enough money to get to Franklin. many don't care if the quit. they call themselves thru hikers to fit in and get fed at the feeds.
its not a life long dream, just leaving on a whim to go hang with friends.
i think with some its a priority in their life, having an obsession with gear/planning and focusing on nothing else but their dream. pointing at others and talking about how they are better "in typical Whiteblaze style" :)

ekeverette
03-15-2012, 15:57
that was a good one k.k.!

Watson
03-15-2012, 16:47
Whistles, sunglasses, sunscreen, water filters, profile maps,..................now that's the goofy ****.

You say stuff like that and then come across someone like me who has had eye surgery and is sensitive to light. So I wear sunglasses. Everyone has their own reasons for the stuff they carry. Hike your own hikie.

Pedaling Fool
03-15-2012, 16:47
Ain't it just great to be among so many freakin' experts:rolleyes:

swjohnsey
03-15-2012, 17:03
I just read this entire post and already knew everything about how importance weight is, but I'm carrying my martin backpacker no matter what. I'm already at 25 lbs without food and water. SO BE IT, let me be the one to learn my lesson, or carry that weight and burden. I'm documenting my whole journey with artistic aspects so I don't care what anyone says here. HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE.

www.nathanielmaloney.com (http://www.nathanielmaloney.com)


I have a Martin Backpacker (steel string, no amplification), can't imagine it surviving the AT. I keep a tenor size ukele at hand as a thinking aid. Have you considered one of them?

flemdawg1
03-15-2012, 17:17
Have you considered a Guitalele instead of the Martin Backpacker?
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Guitar-Ukulele-Guitalele--GL1/dp/B004N6RBWW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331832702&sr=8-1


I have a Martin Backpacker (steel string, no amplification), can't imagine it surviving the AT. I keep a tenor size ukele at hand as a thinking aid. Have you considered one of them?

Great minds thinking alike?

TyTy
03-15-2012, 17:33
Couple things I have seen mentioned..

'Im not gonna spend $3,000 buying cuben fiber'. Going light, for me, was cheaper...way cheaper. Most everything that I have bought that was expensive I have sold or returned because it was heavy. A lot of it is sitting in my bin in my garage because I just dont bring it. That was a big part of the appeal to me, lighter is cheaper.

'Im not trying to win a race, if you want to speed down the trail doing big mileage have at it'. Next weekend my base weight will be 10.5 lbs for a 2 night trip. I promise I won't be covering a ton of miles, I am a slow hiker. My last trip we covered 12 miles in 2.5 days. Regardless of how many miles you hike, weather it is 2 per day or 20 being lighter is just plain easier.

I hear a lot of defending the heavy pack mentality but I don't hear any good arguments. What does a 60lb pack have in it for a 3 season trip that my 10 lb pack does not have? I have a sleeping bag that keeps me warm, a blow up pad that is as comfortable as it gets, I have a big pillow, I have a full tent with bug netting, I have a stove for hot food, I have extra layers for warmth, I have full rain gear, two sources of fire, a first aid kit, a tiny knife, plenty of food, plenty of water, UV light purification (sometimes chemical backup), etc. If at 10.5 lbs I am warm, dry, well fed with hot meals, sleeping in a full shelter comfortably...what am I missing out on that a person with a 50-60 lb pack has?

The only thing I can think of is more extra clothes and maybe a chair? (yes, that one does make me jealous sometimes). I can't even think of anything else I would want to bring or anything that would make my camping more comfortable (other than a chair). Being light does not mean you sacrifice anything it just means carrying lighter options that perform the same.

I am open to hearing about what is being missed out on.


And yes, I do think it is crappy when salespeople help load someone up a pack that will weight 60 lbs, especially when I see them doing it to young and old people many of which probably take that out one time, are miserable, and never go again because they think that is the only way.

rocketsocks
03-15-2012, 17:44
Carrying a heavy load builds character...and strong bones.

JAK
03-15-2012, 17:58
So does hiking with a lighter load.

I go by total weight on feet. At 6' 210# I am already 45 pounds overweight, so 20 pounds skin out along the Fundy Foothpath provides more than enough character. I agree that lighter is cheaper. Sure, there are still ways to part with loads of money and go UL, but you don't have to. Besides not having the money, I like the challenge of going both cheap and light.

Slo-go'en
03-15-2012, 17:59
People carry all that stuff 'cuz they bought it and no sense leaving it home if there is a remote chance of using any of it.

TyTy
03-15-2012, 18:00
BTW, most of the time when I see people carrying 60lbs or whatever it is not that they are happy, dry as a bone, big smiles on their faces just carrying more. Usually when I see them they are miserable, soaking wet, gear soaking wet, and/or covered in sweat and verbally complaining that they are tired and unhappy. I know there are tough guys that happily carry 60lbs bragging the whole way and telling everyone to 'toughen up' or 'be a man' but those people that can do that are few and far between.

Last time I hiked Pine Mountain I got there early and I passed two separate groups of boy scouts and fathers coming out. Both groups everyone had gigantic packs on with sleeping bags and pads, pots, pans, etc hanging off and tied/strapped all over. Both groups were absolutely miserable and looked like they had just walked out of REI, brand new everything. I stopped to talk to one of the Dad's and he joked that his son was going to have to take up a different hobby because he was never going along on one of these trips again. I asked him what made it miserable, he said the hike in, the camping, the tent leaking all over him, no sleep, uncomfortable sleeping pad, and now the hike out (they camped 1 night about 2 - 3 miles from where they parked). He didn't seem receptive to discussing anything so I said "that stinks, I'm sorry about that, you don't have far to go the parking lot is less than a mile." He said "A MILE! Oh my god we can't go another mile!"

How by any stretch is that better? At least if he was only carrying 20-25 lbs and got wet and had a bad nights sleep at least then he would have had a decent hike in and out. I would also argue that when people roll into camp with a 60lb pack having spent every bit of energy getting there that is when they do things like sloppily setup a tent (that later collapses), ignore getting their gear wet on the way in because they just want to get there, skip dinner or skip making a warm dinner and go to bed hungry and end up cold, on and on and on.

I agree with the whole HYOH, if you are having fun. If you are having fun with 60lbs on your back then have fun by all means. If you like to challenge yourself that way then go for it but if you find yourself miserably trudging through the hike so you can see/camp/be in the beautiful outdoors...it does not have to be that way.

moongoddess
03-15-2012, 18:20
Carrying a heavy load builds character...and strong bones.

But not strong ligaments and tendons - and that can be a HUGE problem on the trail.

*puts physician hat on* Listen up, peeps; this is important. What's the difference between carrying a 60 pound pack and being 60 pounds overweight (a comparison I see tossed about on hiking forums all the time by the heavy-pack defenders)? The difference is this: most people who are significantly overweight put that extra weight on over a period of years (if not decades). That gives plenty time for their muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments to gradually get stronger. Muscle gains strength relatively quickly. Bone takes a bit longer. Ligaments and tendons are hypocellular tissues with a very poor blood supply; they take a very long time to strengthen. A common injury that happens to newbie weightlifters is tearing a tendon during a lift because they go too heavy too quickly. They've built up the muscle mass to lift the weight, but the muscles' tendons can't toughen up fast enough to handle that new load. The result: a torn tendon and orthopedic surgery.

The same thing can happen when you carry a heavy pack. When you put a 60 pound pack on your back for the first time, from your body's standpoint it's as though you gained 60 pounds overnight. Your muscles may be fine with that, but your tendons and ligaments may not be able to handle such an abrupt increase in weight. Look at the injuries which commonly knock hikers off the trail: Achilles tendonitis, heel spurs, plantar fasciatis, back problems, shoulder and neck strains, etc. Those are soft tissue injuries, the results of asking connective tissues to bear stresses beyond their current strength to handle.

For your body's sake, keep your pack weight as low as you can. Your ligaments, tendons, and joints will thank you for it. And if you MUST carry a heavy pack, build up to carrying that weight gradually, over a period of months. Otherwise you're greatly increasing your chances of suffering an injury which will at a minimum end your thru-hike (and at worst, could end your hiking days permanently).

rocketsocks
03-15-2012, 18:46
But not strong ligaments and tendons - and that can be a HUGE problem on the trail.

*puts physician hat on* Listen up, peeps; this is important. What's the difference between carrying a 60 pound pack and being 60 pounds overweight (a comparison I see tossed about on hiking forums all the time by the heavy-pack defenders)? The difference is this: most people who are significantly overweight put that extra weight on over a period of years (if not decades). That gives plenty time for their muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments to gradually get stronger. Muscle gains strength relatively quickly. Bone takes a bit longer. Ligaments and tendons are hypocellular tissues with a very poor blood supply; they take a very long time to strengthen. A common injury that happens to newbie weightlifters is tearing a tendon during a lift because they go too heavy too quickly. They've built up the muscle mass to lift the weight, but the muscles' tendons can't toughen up fast enough to handle that new load. The result: a torn tendon and orthopedic surgery.

The same thing can happen when you carry a heavy pack. When you put a 60 pound pack on your back for the first time, from your body's standpoint it's as though you gained 60 pounds overnight. Your muscles may be fine with that, but your tendons and ligaments may not be able to handle such an abrupt increase in weight. Look at the injuries which commonly knock hikers off the trail: Achilles tendonitis, heel spurs, plantar fasciatis, back problems, shoulder and neck strains, etc. Those are soft tissue injuries, the results of asking connective tissues to bear stresses beyond their current strength to handle.

For your body's sake, keep your pack weight as low as you can. Your ligaments, tendons, and joints will thank you for it. And if you MUST carry a heavy pack, build up to carrying that weight gradually, over a period of months. Otherwise you're greatly increasing your chances of suffering an injury which will at a minimum end your thru-hike (and at worst, could end your hiking days permanently).Thanks Doc,can you send me the bill?;)

Pedaling Fool
03-15-2012, 20:20
BTW, most of the time when I see people carrying 60lbs or whatever it is not that they are happy, dry as a bone, big smiles on their faces just carrying more. Usually when I see them they are miserable, soaking wet, gear soaking wet, and/or covered in sweat and verbally complaining that they are tired and unhappy.
I was carrying 80lbs on my back in 2006 starting from the Approach Trail; I finally got it down to 60lbs:D

As RS says, it builds character and strong bones...who cares how miserable one is...gotta look at the big picture -- 6 years later and I'm stronger than ever. Besides, now I'm a very lovable mofo, because I've spent my load:)










Carrying a heavy load builds character...and strong bones.

Pedaling Fool
03-15-2012, 20:21
Thanks Doc,can you send me the bill?;)Yeah, the doc has a point; luckily I have tons of weightlifting that built up them connecting tissues.

rocketsocks
03-15-2012, 21:52
Yeah, the doc has a point; luckily I have tons of weightlifting that built up them connecting tissues.Doc has a very good point,and that's why I am at 40 lbs. instead of 60 psi;),and building character by the mile.:D

atmilkman
03-15-2012, 21:58
I was carrying 80lbs on my back in 2006 starting from the Approach Trail; I finally got it down to 60lbs:D

As RS says, it builds character and strong bones...who cares how miserable one is...gotta look at the big picture -- 6 years later and I'm stronger than ever. Besides, now I'm a very lovable mofo, because I've spent my load:)

Now John... use posta say "I izza BAD mofo"

Wolf - 23000
03-16-2012, 01:10
Choice! It is simple ever hikers choice how much he or she is going to carry. Every time I meet another hiker, I see things that I would not carry or would do things differently. At the same time, it is not my place to tell them how someone should or should not travel down the trail. It is all on them, besides what different does it matter?

Wolf

quilteresq
03-16-2012, 02:07
[QUOTE=moongoddess;1267673]But not strong ligaments and tendons - and that can be a HUGE problem on the trail.

*puts physician hat on* Listen up, peeps; this is important. What's the difference between carrying a 60 pound pack and being 60 pounds overweight (a comparison I see tossed about on hiking forums all the time by the heavy-pack defenders)? The difference is this: most people who are significantly overweight put that extra weight on over a period of years (if not decades). That gives plenty time for their muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments to gradually get stronger. Muscle gains strength relatively quickly. Bone takes a bit longer.

Yeah, but due to thyroid problems, I've gained 15 lbs over the last 6 months. It TOTALLY wipes out any weight savings I'm making up in my sewing lair with cuben fiber tarp, lightweight wind gear, etc. . . and I am Pi**ed! The good new is that I have almost an entire year to lose it. The bad new is that it isn't under control yet. I'm working with my doctor, but not happy. But I'm having fun going on training hikes for my 13 NH 4000' peaks this summer. I just wish it was enough to keep me from the constant GAIN. High hopes for the summer.

JAK
03-16-2012, 06:26
40 pounds was a joke when I was 21 years old and 155-160 pounds.
Different story at 50 years old and 200-210 pounds, and totally unneccessarry.
I through that extra 'r' in there just for a little poetic justice.

JAK
03-16-2012, 06:28
Threw not through. Man I am having a real problem with homonyms. Must be an age thing.

hikerboy57
03-16-2012, 07:21
People carry all that stuff 'cuz they bought it and no sense leaving it home if there is a remote chance of using any of it.

i think you hit it on the head.When I first got married, my wife bought me one of those coleman lanterns for my birthday.(I had thought "what a useless piece of weight"), thanked her for her thoughtfulness. i honestly tried to find a way to take it on my trips, but left it in the trunk of my car every time.

Firefighter503
03-16-2012, 15:37
@JAK - how about that extra c? Whats that for? ;)

JAK
03-16-2012, 16:13
lol. I wasn't sure about that, so that was a mistake. The extra r was supposed to run interference.

JAK
03-16-2012, 16:14
i think you hit it on the head.When I first got married, my wife bought me one of those coleman lanterns for my birthday.(I had thought "what a useless piece of weight"), thanked her for her thoughtfulness. i honestly tried to find a way to take it on my trips, but left it in the trunk of my car every time.I leave my wife at home.

JAK
03-16-2012, 16:16
Oops. I might have read that incorrectly.

hikerboy57
03-16-2012, 18:21
Oops. I might have read that incorrectly.
she went in the trunk with the lantern.:)

rocketsocks
03-16-2012, 18:31
she went in the trunk with the lantern.Sure hope you gave her a Trail Map so she could follow your progress.

hikerboy57
03-16-2012, 18:44
Sure hope you gave her a Trail Map so she could follow your progress.

sold the car a long time ago!

rocketsocks
03-16-2012, 19:05
sold the car a long time ago!That one way to fix a broken trunk light.

paintedstars
03-16-2012, 19:05
I'm taking the Martin Backpacker. I'm probably going to release an album of all the songs I write on the trail after I am done with this hike. I am in the process of making something to make a bag for it to be waterproof. If something does happen to it, that's what I'll have to face... I was in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico about 5 years ago and bought a $100 guitar at a local store there. I had to switch the strings on it since I'm left handed, but it served it's purpose for two weeks while in a paradise. Once the vacation was over with I left the guitar in the corner of the hotel room and thought to myself how I was hoping that the room service cleaner would be able to keep it and give it to their kid to learn on. Sometimes you have to do things in life for experience and lessons learned. One thing, I'm learning about this forum is that everyone thinks that their way is the only way. I wish everyone happy trails. I will be sure to play my guitar far from shelters so I don't annoy anyone, and I'll be sure to sleep with my food so if I don't make it they can say I went down fighting a bear with my martin backpacker.

~nathaniel~
www.nathanielmaloney.com

rocketsocks
03-16-2012, 19:15
Well not everyone!

kelin
03-16-2012, 22:57
I have even known people (and I know this is impossible to believe) who don't carry hammocks.

AAAAAhhhh some of us have a double fusion in our back and would LOVE to use a hammock but that's not possible.

CrumbSnatcher
03-16-2012, 23:21
#37:cool:
#76:cool:
#96:cool:
#110:cool:

rocketsocks
03-16-2012, 23:39
#37:cool:
#76:cool:
#96:cool:
#110:cool:Ok so thats shrimp and peanuts,beef and brocoli,wonton soup,and two egg rolls right?$37.76:D

CrumbSnatcher
03-17-2012, 00:15
Ok so thats shrimp and peanuts,beef and brocoli,wonton soup,and two egg rolls right?$37.76:Dyou bean here 4 hour-you eat too much, you go now!

rocketsocks
03-17-2012, 18:51
you bean here 4 hour-you eat too much, you go now!8 hours and your right,time to go.

Papa D
03-17-2012, 19:26
Two thoughts:

1) I think most heavy loads on the AT (mostly folks relatively new to backpacking) are based in fears of not having ______. They just don't understand that you can be comfortable without extra ______. And they think that if they bring ______ it will make the trail more like civilization (an element that they identify with). Especially troubling is when someone carries tons of extra ______ which is totally worthless and forgets a small critical item that they might actually need.

2) There are time that carrying a heavy pack is necessary. Examples of this would be a 10 day plus unsupported wilderness trek in the winter when you need to start out with lots of food, fuel, and warm things - - this is "Tipi Walter style." Other examples are on rock climbing and or ski mountaineering overnights where the pack weights are just sometime unavoidable. The AT in "hiking season" just doesn't qualify as a reason to carry more than about 30 pounds for most people. Ultra-light is un-necessary (and can get some people in trouble) but lightweight as possible - - cutting out all the extra ______ is really a good idea for almost everyone.

ScottP
03-17-2012, 21:52
you might want to learn to actually hit notes when you sing before you plan on releasing an album

GP1971
03-17-2012, 23:36
I have been a member of many forums related to hobbies. I have learned alot from this one however it contains some of the most judgemental people on it. Yes people get excited and buy unnecessary things when they are new to something. Just because you learned your lesson don't mock those that haven't yet.

paintedstars
03-18-2012, 00:23
you might want to learn to actually hit notes when you sing before you plan on releasing an album


this will be my fifth friend. I've also been featured on Time Warner Cable on, many radio shows and write ups in Scene magazine. Thanks for enjoying my music =)

seasparrow
03-18-2012, 03:40
My farts (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.cuddlycomments.com/5/9024e2d20b213731.gif&imgrefurl=http://cuddlycomments.com/view/2198&h=208&w=356&sz=50&tbnid=PLUup9hvI8zosM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=127&zoom=1&docid=EU9zfYsNA67rkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A5FlT7DKCoTkggfdhbDECQ&ved=0CG4Q9QEwDw&dur=5201) smell like roses (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://gfx.glittergraphicsnow.com/albums/ll149/glittergn/rose/ros007.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.glittergraphicsnow.com/rose.html&h=431&w=379&sz=142&tbnid=zRUwRqLBEbVPJM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=82&zoom=1&docid=97WjlG-xo0iZ2M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZBlT7GuJcOwgweR24nwAg&ved=0CHQQ9QEwEQ&dur=3161).

Theosus
03-18-2012, 09:55
What kind of music is it...? Never heard of scene magazine, but I like rock of all sorts. You have a YouTube channel or something where we can hear your stuff?

Theosus
03-18-2012, 09:56
Oops. Was supposed to quote painted stars...

paintedstars
03-18-2012, 10:10
www.nathanielmaloney.com I guess I'm just being my typical artistic sensitive self...so pardon for getting upset about the comment above about hitting notes....

ScottP
03-18-2012, 10:16
I have absolute pitch. It's genetic. I'm not a musician, but I just can't stand to listen to performers that can't sing (or play) in tune. It's like listening to fingernails be drug down a chalkboard.

paintedstars
03-18-2012, 10:22
I have absolute pitch. It's genetic. I'm not a musician, but I just can't stand to listen to performers that can't sing (or play) in tune. It's like listening to fingernails be drug down a chalkboard.


so I guess you're the 1 in 10,000 that won't enjoy my music =)

brotheral
03-18-2012, 11:21
:-?
I have been a member of many forums related to hobbies. I have learned alot from this one however it contains some of the most judgemental people on it. Yes people get excited and buy unnecessary things when they are new to something. Just because you learned your lesson don't mock those that haven't yet.
I agree. I guess some folks have a "Need to Control". It doesn't bother me for a second what other people carry or don't carry. It's about "Hiking Your Own Hike" and What works for you. If a guy wants to haul 70lbs into the woods, that's his business. When I want advice on gear, I ask for it here and always get the information I need to make my own choices.
:sun

mikec
03-18-2012, 11:30
Ladies & Gentlemen, people do learn to lighten up after awhile. But my philosophy has always been: Carry more stuff, be uncomfortable during the day but more comfortable at night. I have hiked with ultra lite guys that have told me the next morning that they froze their you know what off the night before because they were carrying a light bag and/or not enough clothes.

chief
03-18-2012, 18:15
so I guess you're the 1 in 10,000 that won't enjoy my music =)

And hopefully those few afflicted with absolute pitch will suffer in silence.

Hoop
03-18-2012, 18:56
So, this weekend a buddy and I hiked AFSP to Woody Gap. Lots of jettisoned gear. Brand new shoes lying neatly on the side of the trail. Ziplock bags of food. At Hawk Mt shelter a manly shovel folded up in a heavy plastic case, and second one lying next to it. Coleman's fuel, beanies, shirts, tarps, trash. At Gooch shelter an almost full bottle of Jim Beam, waiting for a hangover candidate. At one campsite, two full jumbo jars of peanut butter. TP within feet of the water at Three Forks and at Justus Creek. A nice ukalele - now, that I packed out. If I knew who abandoned it, I'd return it. Met a guy on Springer who was dejected, headed home - on the first day he'd become dehydrated, then pulled a quad, and to top it off he broke a tooth at supper.

rocketsocks
03-18-2012, 19:04
So, this weekend a buddy and I hiked AFSP to Woody Gap. Lots of jettisoned gear. Brand new shoes lying neatly on the side of the trail. Ziplock bags of food. At Hawk Mt shelter a manly shovel folded up in a heavy plastic case, and second one lying next to it. Coleman's fuel, beanies, shirts, tarps, trash. At Gooch shelter an almost full bottle of Jim Beam, waiting for a hangover candidate. At one campsite, two full jumbo jars of peanut butter. TP within feet of the water at Three Forks and at Justus Creek. A nice ukalele - now, that I packed out. If I knew who abandoned it, I'd return it. Met a guy on Springer who was dejected, headed home - on the first day he'd become dehydrated, then pulled a quad, and to top it off he broke a tooth at supper.If you ask me,that sounds alot like "Littering"to me.I mean if I brought it in,"Pack It Out" to a trash can somewhere.JM2C

rocketsocks
03-18-2012, 19:10
If you ask me,that sounds alot like "Littering"to me.I mean if I brought it in,"Pack It Out" to a trash can somewhere.JM2CAnd another thing,Why is it ok to leave stuff all over "My" woods.

Malto
03-18-2012, 19:25
I have hiked with ultra lite guys that have told me the next morning that they froze their you know what off the night before because they were carrying a light bag and/or not enough clothes.

Then you have hiked with inexperienced UL hikers.

CrumbSnatcher
03-18-2012, 20:14
i posted the other day, most first time inspiring AT thruhikers have never hiked before, and was told that i was F.O.S
thats just something i've heard a hundred times over the years from all sorts of people, including wingfoot,hostel owners,etc...
something i have witnessed and i too never hiked before my first thruhike attempt. i could be wrong but if im right, without experience, they might not realize they are littering? its been going on for a long time, they use to joke you could start at springer and pick up all the gear you need before neels gap :-) i once saw a pair of jeans laying on the trail, but its ok because they did fold them real nice! :-)
i think the internet helps some but hurts some too, it ain't just the inexperienced UL'ers its alot of all of them

STICK
03-18-2012, 20:18
Then you have hiked with inexperienced UL hikers.

I partly agree with this...

I think that it is a compromise one way or another...

It is either pack a little extra and have a little too much most nights, but what you need on some nights...

OR

Pack a little less and have enough most nights, and maybe not quite enough on some nights...

One part of being "UL" is by having true "UL" gear that works for you, and the other part of being "UL" is by carrying only what you need, and at times it can be hard to predict one way or another what to carry. Example: I recently hiked from Wayah Gap to Sassafras Gap Shelter. We had highs of nearly 70 F and lows of freezing. I opted in favor of warmth and carried my Marmot Helium rather than either of my much lighter quilts. The first night I was almost uncomfortably hot, then the next I was snuggled in, warm and cozy. So, technically one could say that I over packed on this trip. OTOH, if I had brought my lighter quilt I would have been comfy one night and cold the other, but one could have then said I underpacked... Either way, I was comfy one night and not so much the other. However, for this trip, my BPW was still only 9.5 lbs so I was still considered "UL" even though I did in fact overpack...

So, as far as actually being "UL"...and being comfortable, I think it is quite possible, but as gg-man eludes to...it does take a little bit of experience and understanding to pull it off successfully. Which is why it may be a good thing that most start off with a little extra rather than not enough. By the time they reach Neels Gap they should have some understanding of what they want and what they don't want, at which time they will ship the excess back home, unless they have left it behind on the trail...

But, I think for someone that comes out without any attempt to research what they will actually need it is good for them to figure it out the hard way. Heck, my first hike was from AFSPVC to Neels Gap and with some research I still left with a 56 + lb pack...carrying the pack was miserable (although I loved the trip and wanted more), but I learned a lot...so much in fact that I recently rehiked from Springer to Neels Gap with a total pack weight of 17 lbs (yep, that included food, water and fuel too). That is right at 40 lbs lighter! Not to mention the first time was in September when it was warm, and the more recent trip was in January which was obviously colder and required more substantial gear. I would like to add that the last trip was more comfy, both on the trail as well as in camp.

Papa D
03-19-2012, 19:35
www.nathanielmaloney.com (http://www.nathanielmaloney.com) I guess I'm just being my typical artistic sensitive self...so pardon for getting upset about the comment above about hitting notes....


Hey man - I went to your website and I like your music - most of the tunes I listen to that are not live, I need to download to get on my I-pod mini so I can fall asleep in my tent - if you send me a P/M , I'll buy a song or two from you -- best regards, PD

moongoddess
03-19-2012, 20:24
But, I think for someone that comes out without any attempt to research what they will actually need it is good for them to figure it out the hard way.

The only problem I see with that approach is that some of them unnecessarily conclude "Backpacking's not for me!" because they don't know it's possible to hike safely carrying less weight. It's one thing if someone decides to give up backpacking because they just don't like spending extended time outdoors (too many bugs, no air conditioning,etc.); it's something else if they quit because they hate carrying 50 pounds on their back and just didn't know that they could have been carrying 25 pounds instead if they'd packed more carefully and chosen lighter gear.

The other problem with figuring it out as you go along isn't quite as bad: the biggest weight savings come by replacing your backpack, tent, and sleeping bag with lighter models - and those are generally also the most expensive pieces of gear. Replacing them can be a financial burden. It would be better if beginners could be steered to reasonably light (but not necessarily ultralight) gear in the first place. Instead of a 6 pound pack, 5 pound tent, and 4 pound sleeping bag, sell them a 3 pound pack, 2 pound tent, and 2 1/2 pound sleeping bag. But that would require outfitters to look past the immediate sale in favor of long-term development of the hobby, and to know more about backpacking (as opposed to car camping), and I don't see that happening. Too many outfitters don't carry much in the way of light gear; of course they're going to want to sell whatever they already have in stock. And they're always going to sell more to clothes shoppers, dayhikers, and car campers than to backpackers, so it will be hard for them to maintain a current backpacking knowledge base.

STICK
03-19-2012, 21:09
The only problem I see with that approach is that some of them unnecessarily conclude "Backpacking's not for me!" because they don't know it's possible to hike safely carrying less weight. It's one thing if someone decides to give up backpacking because they just don't like spending extended time outdoors (too many bugs, no air conditioning,etc.); it's something else if they quit because they hate carrying 50 pounds on their back and just didn't know that they could have been carrying 25 pounds instead if they'd packed more carefully and chosen lighter gear.

The other problem with figuring it out as you go along isn't quite as bad: the biggest weight savings come by replacing your backpack, tent, and sleeping bag with lighter models - and those are generally also the most expensive pieces of gear. Replacing them can be a financial burden. It would be better if beginners could be steered to reasonably light (but not necessarily ultralight) gear in the first place. Instead of a 6 pound pack, 5 pound tent, and 4 pound sleeping bag, sell them a 3 pound pack, 2 pound tent, and 2 1/2 pound sleeping bag. But that would require outfitters to look past the immediate sale in favor of long-term development of the hobby, and to know more about backpacking (as opposed to car camping), and I don't see that happening. Too many outfitters don't carry much in the way of light gear; of course they're going to want to sell whatever they already have in stock. And they're always going to sell more to clothes shoppers, dayhikers, and car campers than to backpackers, so it will be hard for them to maintain a current backpacking knowledge base.

I do agree with you...but, I also think that anyone that is really planning to do a thru hike has got to be smart enough to get some help somewhere...whether it is Google or an outfitter or a friend...but you also make a good point about the cost of some items (namely the bigger items that you pointed out). There is tons of help out there though...namely these forums...I am very thankful for this forum and others that I frequent...I have probably learned more from the forums than I have any other single source...but how do we get more people to come to these sites...

I also think that if backpacking is something that someone really wants to do, then they will do it regardless. I started out with almost 60 lbs...and it was a bugger toting the pack...but I loved being on the trail enough to go back and ask some more questions and dig deeper. But, at the same time, I am glad that I went out there with that heavy load because it did indeed teach me a thing or two...and the next time I walked out the door I looked at things I put in my pack differently...this alone saved me a fair amount of weight because I realized I did not need things such as that "little" tack hammer...a rock or my foot will also drive a stake in the ground...but then replacing most of my gear also saved a good amount of weight too. And this took me from the Amicalola Visitor Center to Neels Gap to figure out. The same as most thru hikers. I guess though to be fair, I was not thru hiking and had the luxury to go home, save some more money and work at it. But this leads me to my first paragraph again...if they really want to do this, as big of a task as it is then they have got to be smart enough to research it...

Maybe we should set up a booth that people go through near Springer before they start the trail so people can get "shake downs" and can ask questions then... (Not really... :) )

moongoddess
03-20-2012, 00:27
I do agree with you...but, I also think that anyone that is really planning to do a thru hike has got to be smart enough to get some help somewhere...whether it is Google or an outfitter or a friend...

All too often, though, the outfitter or the friend gives bad advice (without even knowing it's bad advice), so unless the newbie finds their way onto a good backpacking site like this one, they innocently buy all the wrong stuff. In another thread on this site, I've been talking to a young woman who's received some advice from a local outfitter. She wound up with an 80 L, 6 lb pack (gotta have a BIG pack to carry all that gear you're going to need on a long hike, you know!), and was told that a 2-person tent weighing 5 lbs, 8 oz would be a good tent for her solo hike. 11.5 lbs already, and she hasn't even added a sleep system, stove system, or clothes. Yikes! Most women would really struggle to carry a pack weighing 40+ pounds any distance, but starting out with that sort of gear is exactly how you get to one.

And I think part of the problem is that "heavy" gear doesn't feel heavy when it's viewed in isolation. A 6 lb backpack or tent feels light when you pick it up. I think beginners have a hard time grasping how additive the weight is, because they buy (and thus think) of each piece of gear in isolation. It's not until they load everything into the pack that they realize they've created a monster load.


but how do we get more people to come to these sites...

That's a good question, and one I have no answer for.


I also think that if backpacking is something that someone really wants to do, then they will do it regardless....if they really want to do this, as big of a task as it is then they have got to be smart enough to research it...

There's probably quite a bit of truth to that, too. Maybe for some people hands-on experience is the way they learn best, so they need to get out there with their gear and figure out on their own whether they can handle its weight or whether they need to find a way to lighten it up.


Maybe we should set up a booth that people go through near Springer before they start the trail so people can get "shake downs" and can ask questions then... (Not really... :) )

I'll leave that job to you. You know a lot more about lightweight techniques than I do and have a lot more trail miles under your belt - and besides, I can't afford to be repeatedly pounding my head in frustration (I already do enough of that at my day job!) :p

JAK
03-20-2012, 08:48
I wonder how much outfitters have to do with people buying too much stuff.

Capt Nat
03-20-2012, 08:58
It sounds like a business opportunity to routinely collect all the abandoned gear and open an outfitters selling the "slightly" used gear.

TyTy
03-20-2012, 12:55
I just thought about something...

You know what outfitters should do, they should have some old packs over in the corner with weights written on them...15lbs, 25lbs, 35lbs, 45lbs, 55lbs or something. Let people pick them up and hold them then start the discussion and purchasing from there. The simple act of hoisting and putting a 35-45 lb pack on your back will make you think twice.

I guess that wouldn't be conducive to selling you 55lbs of gear though.

timmy_toes
03-20-2012, 13:00
I just thought about something...

You know what outfitters should do, they should have some old packs over in the corner with weights written on them...15lbs, 25lbs, 35lbs, 45lbs, 55lbs or something. Let people pick them up and hold them then start the discussion and purchasing from there. The simple act of hoisting and putting a 35-45 lb pack on your back will make you think twice.

I guess that wouldn't be conducive to selling you 55lbs of gear though.

it might be smart for them to sell you that so you come back with your wallet open for that UL pack and tent along with countless other UL gear

paintedstars
03-22-2012, 11:27
Hey man - I went to your website and I like your music - most of the tunes I listen to that are not live, I need to download to get on my I-pod mini so I can fall asleep in my tent - if you send me a P/M , I'll buy a song or two from you -- best regards, PD

Hey Papa D, thanks much for listening to the music. I have to get 3 of my albums up on itunes and other music retail outlets as I am in the process of changing distributors.

On the topic of why people carry so much....well I learned my lesson the past two days. I went backpacking in Oil Creek State Park and there were some really hilly sections. I am not taking a guitar, and not taking my dslr after all. I will just be content listening to music and taking video and photo on my smart phone. That's the extent of luxury I will take with me on this journey as I am under time constraint.

kombiguy
03-23-2012, 20:36
On the other hand, I've been wearing what we used to call "waffle stompers" for 40 years now and see no reason to change. I like them, they mold to my feet, and each pair lasts 20 years. So why change what works just to fit in with current thinking?

Theosus
03-24-2012, 09:02
It sounds like a business opportunity to routinely collect all the abandoned gear and open an outfitters selling the "slightly" used gear.

I was thinking the same thing. Start at neels with very little and a huge pack, first or second week of April, and head south. Have someone waiting for you at fs42.

Papa D
03-24-2012, 09:19
The only problem I see with that approach is that some of them unnecessarily conclude "Backpacking's not for me!" because they don't know it's possible to hike safely carrying less weight. It's one thing if someone decides to give up backpacking because they just don't like spending extended time outdoors (too many bugs, no air conditioning,etc.); it's something else if they quit because they hate carrying 50 pounds on their back and just didn't know that they could have been carrying 25 pounds instead if they'd packed more carefully and chosen lighter gear.

The other problem with figuring it out as you go along isn't quite as bad: the biggest weight savings come by replacing your backpack, tent, and sleeping bag with lighter models - and those are generally also the most expensive pieces of gear. Replacing them can be a financial burden. It would be better if beginners could be steered to reasonably light (but not necessarily ultralight) gear in the first place. Instead of a 6 pound pack, 5 pound tent, and 4 pound sleeping bag, sell them a 3 pound pack, 2 pound tent, and 2 1/2 pound sleeping bag. But that would require outfitters to look past the immediate sale in favor of long-term development of the hobby, and to know more about backpacking (as opposed to car camping), and I don't see that happening. Too many outfitters don't carry much in the way of light gear; of course they're going to want to sell whatever they already have in stock. And they're always going to sell more to clothes shoppers, dayhikers, and car campers than to backpackers, so it will be hard for them to maintain a current backpacking knowledge base.

This is an excellent post. JAK also queried how much Outfitters have to do with heavyweight gear: I'd say that several forces are at work here:

1) People often "learn to backpack" by carrying what they "learned to camp with" from car camping types, military or boys-scout types - all heavyweight "be prepared for everything" oriented thinking
2) They shop at so-called Outfitters that are really not "Outfitters" - they are disguised Big Box Stores - - Bass Pro Shops and Dicks Sporting Goods - - these are huge culprits - they should go to a real local outfitter!
3) Sales people make money on selling extra junk - - people assume they need stuff and unwittingly play along - - even in local stores, most sales people are not actual long-distance backpackers.
4) Fear of not having something tends to drive people in the direction of heavy weight more than whatever "we" tell them. I suppose there is just a learning curve - - some folks never get there.

Old Boots
03-24-2012, 09:43
I began my thru-hike this year, but am currently off the trail due to issues at home that I need to tend to. What I found was that the AT is a unique experience (as is every wilderness experience I have had over the years). So even the experienced camper/outdoors person may not be prepared. During this brief hiatus, I have used the time to rethink my gear and approach. I lightened my base weight from 33 lbs to less than 15 lbs by purchasing a smaller pack, sleeping pad and using a lighter sleeping bag. I also am leaving at home extra clothing that was not necessary. I found that I was carrying way too much food because re-supply is so available. However, I am adding an mp3 player loaded with books and music to comfort me during those long nights in my bag. I also was carrying too much water as there were plenty of places to re-fill. This winter has been unique but I was never cold at night.
The best thing that outfitters could do would be to direct customers who are contemplating hiking the AT to this site or download Winton Porter's gear list and give it to the uninitiated.
The trail of discarded gear, clothing and food is testimony to the adage that experience is the greatest teacher.

Two Tents
03-24-2012, 11:32
We carry stuff we think we are going to need. If I already own it and think I'll need it I may take it. Some things over the years I have been able to replace with lighter, newer, better versions. I will look at a trip, make a list and go to the gear room find the items and put them in my pack. I know what individual pieces weigh but usually don't weigh the pack when I'm done loading it. For me there isn't any point to knowing what my pack weighs as it contains things I'll be using. What am I going to do, leave out essential items just to get a lower number on a scale? As I have gotten older and have hiked a bunch I have learned that I can do without many things I used to think I needed to have with me. I don't care the end weight of my pack. I truly don't care how much you carry.

gregpphoto
03-25-2012, 05:03
All the research in the world won't tell you exactly how it feels to carry just ten extra pounds over up and down mountains all day long. When people think ten pounds, they don't think its that much. When a hiker thinks of ten pounds, we think of an elephant.