View Full Version : To Sgt. Rock
MedicineMan
12-18-2002, 04:15
Santa is bringing me a HH A-sym for Christmas....I have perused your site and genuinely excited about its pending arrival....I am thinking I should wait until at least late Spring before taking it on the AT due to cold. Seems like everything I have read boils down to the fact that hammocks are cold sleepers no matter what you do. This is my future game plan for winter sleeping in the hammock, so please share your thoughts on this with me.
I will get a Feathered Friends Great Auk and have it customized so I can put in a total of 1 inch non-compressible foam pad in the bottom sleeve. I will carry an extra panel of sil-nylon to extend the windy side of the hammocks tarp to the ground enhancing the windblocking effect. These ideas come from the KISKIL site and I like the idea of getting the hammock low to the ground and selecting ground that is mounded to further create a pocket of air space. I am also thinking of adding a mylar space blanket to the bottom of the hammock, possibly even laminating it to the bottom surface...that way I would have the reflective surface, the bottom hammock material, and one inche of solid foam then my clothes/and or vapor barrier/capilene....
What do you think Sgt.Rock?
SGT Rock
12-18-2002, 07:45
I just saw this and I'm on my way into work. I'll give you some answers a little later today.
SGT Rock
12-18-2002, 08:28
Originally posted by dachonkin
Santa is bringing me a HH A-sym for Christmas....I have perused your site and genuinely excited about its pending arrival....I am thinking I should wait until at least late Spring before taking it on the AT due to cold. Seems like everything I have read boils down to the fact that hammocks are cold sleepers no matter what you do. This is my future game plan for winter sleeping in the hammock, so please share your thoughts on this with me.
That isn't entirely true. If you develope a system that works, you can stay warm within reason. I have worked one out that works down to about 30* so far, and HH has one too. BTW HH has more cold weather experience with the Hennessy than I do.
I will get a Feathered Friends Great Auk and have it customized so I can put in a total of 1 inch non-compressible foam pad in the bottom sleeve. I will carry an extra panel of sil-nylon to extend the windy side of the hammocks tarp to the ground enhancing the windblocking effect. These ideas come from the KISKIL site and I like the idea of getting the hammock low to the ground and selecting ground that is mounded to further create a pocket of air space.
1" of foma pad should work for very cold nights. Depending on how cold you sleep, the solutions would probable be more like a Ray Jardine philosophy of avoiding high ground where it is cold, but also staying out of cold spots at low ground. He has a better explination than I could give in his book. I have to say that if your going foam pad, get the densest pad you find, and maybe add a mylar sheet to the bottom of each one. It isn't truely a radiant heat reflector (more on this to follow). I don't know about extending the length of the tarp to touch the ground. If your talking about doing that on all sides you will create problems with condensation under all that sil nylon. I personally feel I'm starting to get good at pitching the hammock so I don't have this.
I am also thinking of adding a mylar space blanket to the bottom of the hammock, possibly even laminating it to the bottom surface...that way I would have the reflective surface, the bottom hammock material, and one inche of solid foam then my clothes/and or vapor barrier/capilene....
Mylar is better as a vapor barrier than a radiant heat reflector. Shane Steikamp and I just had a long series of posts over on BackpackingLight board and we can both explain pretty much in detail why radiant heat barriers are not what they are advertised to be. On top of that, there will be hot days on the trail too. Laminating your hammock will turn it into an oven and destroy the hammock's ability for keeping you cool in hot weather.
What do you think Sgt.Rock?
Personally I thnk that there is a lot of people talking legitimately about how to stay warm in a hammock - which can be a problem. The end result is people are over reacting to the problem and thinking they need a thousand modifications to the sleeping system to survive. But actually you won't need all these solutions unless it gets really cold. I personally reccomend you stay flexible. Have a system that uses pads with resonable bulk and weight so if it gets really cold, you just sleep on the ground instead of suspending the hammock. Imagine this: You know it will get cold as heck, so instead of suspending the hammock high, tie it so the bottom is on the ground. Now you have a bivy tent without poles and get the benifit all the tent campers have of ground under you for equalizing the temperature.
Sgt Rock - I like the idea of tying your hammock so the bottom is on the ground. That would solve a LOT of problems. I've fooled around with the leki method that Tom Hennessey uses but it is a Laurel and Hardy episode waiting to happen. Is this an original idea or did I miss something somewhere? Whoever came up with such an obvious answer deserves a gold star!:) Thanks
SGT Rock
12-18-2002, 11:21
I want to say that I actually was the first (as far as I know) to use the two trekking pole method. I put that on my site way back in 2000 when the hammock was still a novelty. It didn't catch on I guess until Trail Days or something. I could care less who gets credit, I just want to say it was originally a solution for when there aren't any trees. If there are trees but it is too cold, then the solution is too easy. In that case it is just like a tent with a bottom and a velcro door. One of the reasons I've been using my system is because on the ground, the windshield becomes a ground pad and the foam pad becomes... well, a foam pad, duh.
Hammock Hanger
12-18-2002, 13:09
I have slept in the hammock in some very cold weather, 20's... Here are a few experiences. If weight is not a super issue I was toasty as hell when I carried a 3/4 thermarest and a 15 deree bag. I was pleasantly warm with the same pad and a 20 degree bag. --- 30's Slightly chilled with a 45 degree bag and a Z-rest, but okay when I added a vapor barrier. (A bag liner made of silnylon or a rain suit) --- 40's comfy with a 45 degree down bag, a fleece top and z-rest. -- 50/60's comfy with just a windshield reflective pad and a fleece blanket. 70's just comfy...
I am currently working with a few velcro strips on the outside bottom and a reflective pad that could be velcroed in place if it was really cold. I would only carry something like this if I knew I was going to be camping in cold weather for a length of time.
I feel that Sgt Rock is correct that if you run into some unexpected cold weather just hang closer to the ground, you can even russle up some leaves to buffer around it. (scatter the leaves upon striking camp--LNT)
I personally have only had 3-4 uncomfortable nights in over 2 years of using the HH as my shelter source. Had I gotten up and rearrange a few things I probably would have been fine but was to tired. NOTE: Hang it right the first time, 2 am is not the time to be rearranging...
Hammock Hanger
MedicineMan
12-19-2002, 03:54
Too cold ---lay it on the ground! I love it...so I am thinking about mixing Sgt.Rocks idea with HH's,,,,if you find yourself in a pine grove scoop up a body's length and wide of pine needles and place the hammock into them (or hovering into them)! Well you know I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about HenHam's and the incredible thing has to be their versatility---am even exicited about a paddling trip and hanging on in the mangroves to sleep in!
It also sounds like I dont have to add the Great Auk...so I am wondering if Moonbow gear might sew a pad pocket/sleeve on the bottom of my WM Megalite, a thought anyway which leads to a question for
HH and Sgt.rock-
Is it that important to keep the pad centered directly under you? It seems to me that if you dont you will get big cold spots....
SGT Rock
12-19-2002, 07:48
Yes it is important to keep the pad under you. I reccomend a pad at least 24" wide and as dense as you can get. Under that I use a truck windshield sunscreen that has some warming properties and can serve double duty as a ground cover if needed. Moonbow will sew just about anything, but I would be very carefull sewing into a down bag.
MedicineMan
12-20-2002, 01:29
Sgt, just got an e-mail from Feathered Friends and the Great Auk has a one inch sleeve already- I am thinking 1 inch of dense foam pad should be enough.
they said they would also add a zipper for 50$ between the sleeve and the bag making entry easier in the HenHam and I am pleased with that. I have since asked them if they can add a downfilled draft tube by the zipper and if they say yes I will begin the ordering process of the Great Auk which will be my winter hammock bag. I already own a Rab Top Bag and will let Jonathan and Rhia at Moonbowgear add a sleeve and zipper to it for my summer/spring/early fall hammock bag.
My question now concerns the pads.
What is the densest pad I can get?
Have you ever heard of Bevalite (it is mentioned by George Cole at KISKIL Outdoors)-incidentally he makes through Moonbowgear the Mithril Backpack (which I have ordered also to experiment with).
Does anyone remember ensolite pads? my memory says they were dense/rigid closed cell foam pads. We used them years ago on Scout trips.
OK thanks Sgt.....and by the way, I haven't mentioned it but you site is awesome too and I have hit it many many times lately in my search for hammock knowledge-keep up the good work!
Ra
SGT Rock
12-20-2002, 06:37
I don't know what type of pad the material is made from, but lately I'm using an Army surplus closed cell foam pad. It seems to work pretty good and is 24" wide. I have a Mt Washington pad I used for a while, but they are not as dense, so heat can soak through them quicker.
Originally posted by dachonkin
Does anyone remember ensolite pads? my memory says they were dense/rigid closed cell foam pads. We used them years ago on Scout trips.
Ensolite (sometimes known as "enso-heavy") was a standard pad in the 70s and early 80s. It was dense closed cell foam that insulated well, not rigid though. Pads of 1/2 inch thickness were suitable for winter use on snow. The white ensolite tended to get stiff in cold temperatures (meaning it could take 10 minutes to unroll your pad at -10) and shatter into dozens of pieces. Later there was a green ensolite which remained quite pliable in very cold temperatures. The pads tended to lose thickness over time (a pad originally 1/2 inch thick would be 3/8 after a few years). They were also very heavy compared to closed cell foam pads of the same dimension you could buy today. So, bottom line, ensolite has apparently been superseeded by better and lighter stuff. I still have a green ensolite pad, which used to be 1/2 inch thick but isn't anymore. But I wish my new blue evasote pad could be rollup as easily and tightly as the ensolite. Just my historical perspective.
MedicineMan
12-21-2002, 04:11
especially DebW and SgtRock....I have just discovered Big Agnes Bags...the Zirkel is rated to 20 degrees, and already has the things I wanted Feathered Friends to add to the Great Auk-namely a zipper so the pad sleeve could separate from the bag making entry easier in the hammock, a draft tube along that zipper. The Zirkel even has a pocket to stuff a garment in for a pillow...cost is 150$ less than the augmented Feathered Friends, weight is within 2 oz. of each other..so I am on the verge of ordering the Zirkel from Big Agnes.....and to think I dont even have the hammock yet, but between the reports you two have made on hammocks I am sure to love it...
Back to the pads....George Cole recommends Bevolite (now known as FY-20)which I found at Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics (http://www.owfinc.com/)...it is a closed cell foam pad, so have any of you heard of it? George Cole is the owner/designer at KISKIL outdoors...and by the way I have ordered his Mithril Pack to experiment with. When it comes in I will give it a full review after an AT outting with it. Cole is also a big believer in hammocks and discusses various ways to deal with cold at his site so maybe he knows something with the Bevalite.
so that is my plan so far, get an inch of this Bevalite, cut it to fit into the Zirkel sleeve and go for the cold!
dachonkin, I haven't heard of Bevolite. Can you post the
weight and dimensions. Sounds like you're almost good to go.
Let us know how it works out. One concern I would have with
the bag and pad sleeve is that the stiffness in the pad may
mean that the bag doesn't drape over you around the sides
as well as it could. But extra clothes or a down parka could fill in the gaps. By the way, in really cold weather, I am always warmest in a double bag system because the inner bag gets compressed against your body eliminating all the air space inside.
MedicineMan
12-25-2002, 00:21
That side compression of the bag and thus the insulation by the hammock is my current concern. I have already written Big Agnes about this, specifically asking if a 24 inch pad sleeve is a possibility...their answer is that funds for that type of develpment do not currently exist...but I know that Feathered Friends will make the sleeve any size you want when you order the bag, in fact they will do a complete custom bag for you.
I thought when I discovered the Big Agnes bag (zirkel specifically) that I had the hammock/cold weather problem solved....that was until I read that Sgt.Rock and by inference you all agree that a 24 closed cell pad is necessary to inhibit the hammock material itself from squishing the insulation to the point where it is no longer insulation.
I am currently back to the Feathered Friends bag, but cringe at what a custom bag like this will cost...I am guessing close to 500$ with zipper, larger pad sleeve, and draft tubes....so I still study the options and study and study and study....I'm just so psyched about the hammock and know I will want to use it year around..and since I hike the year around might as well see if I cant get the hammock to be a year 'round thing too.
MedicineMan
12-25-2002, 00:35
sorry dont know the answers to the Bevalite (now known as FY20)...but I do have some ordered...
now I am trying to find a place that can give me a piece of Evazote in a particular length....24" x 78'....seems like everyone has it in 20" x 72"......
so I have written some manufacturers in my quest....
in the future I see it, a hammock that can handle 10-15degrees