PDA

View Full Version : Thru-hiker's Handbook to be made obselete by WB



MedicineMan
03-30-2005, 03:02
I think that WB will ultimately replace the Thru-hiker's handbook...not intentionally but by simply providing the same but in a more thorough, more accurate, and more timely manner than can be offered by the Thru-hiker's handbook.
How can this be?
Well there are enough of us WB members who are thru-hiking, day hiking, or section hiking the trail on a year around continuous basis that we can funnel vast amounts of real time/current info into the Articles Section on Whiteblaze.
Sure a filter will be needed, forum(s) moderator for lack of a better term....but what are your thoughts WB members?
1. Can Whiteblaze provide the same information?
2. Can the information be assimilated by forum members (again the reference to moderators above) into a single file downloadable at any given time, a file that is maybe as concise OR as detailed as the dowloader wants it to be?
3. Can we do this for free?

I'm not against any one person profitting from something they love (no hints to either Wingfoot of the couple that offers guided hikes), but in a pure way the A.T. is free for us to hike, would it not be a gift to all hikers-even a gift to ourselves if such could be created and offered as a free download?

I realize ALDHA has a downloadable file- could the one offered by WB be even better?

Again, this is not to detract from either publications currently available, and I ask if this is something to consider?

For WB members would it be too much to ask for routine visits to a particular section, a section you may happen to maintain, live close to, hike regularly?

Would it be a lot to ask thru-hikers to adopt a certain section of trail after their hike is over, a section they can report on with regularity?

I'm sure DebW can vividly describe her area well at any given time. Wouldnt it be nice if the entire trail could be done the same.

If any of you have followed the Rings movies then you too might consider this 'a mighty gift' to the trail community, something yet again that could set aside WB as not only the dominant AT forum, but the forum that best counters with the ATC and ALDHA if for no other reason than the fact that what we offer cost nothing but the time to download, read, and use.

I mentioned earlier various levels of data download....i'm no computer person but in the electronic marvel of the internet and forums like this it might be nice for the hiker needing info to be able to select a file with varying amounts of info:
a file of SNP with miles between road crossings and nothing else
a file of Virginia with everything possibly known about the AT
etc.

OK rant over,
flame away or give me a hug :)
MedicineMan

Pencil Pusher
03-30-2005, 03:15
No flames, but can I hug your daughter instead? Nice read. I suppose the handbook will continue to sell because folks like convenience.

MedicineMan
03-30-2005, 04:09
the 9 year old or the 12 year old....let me check the TBI list of sex offenders first :)

convenience? if you have a printer and internet access to WB then you could have beyond the Thru-hikers handbook almost instantly (well depending on which files from the Article Section you decide to download, how fast you connect speed is, and how fast your printer is)..........

One Leg
03-30-2005, 08:52
The Thru Hikers Handbook and the Companion both served their respective purposes to me last year. However, I received the most benefit for my planning, gear, etc. from WB. Since that time, lots of info has been added to WB that would've benefitted me even more. There's something to be said about learning from the experience from others. You can read in a book about a certain portion of the trail, what to expect regarding shelters, privies, water supplies, and what's available at the next crossroad. But here, and at TJ, you can read firsthand accounts of the difficulties one can expect in the same section. Here, I've forged ironclad friendships, a feeling of belonging that I never could've gotten from a book, and nothing will ever replace that.

Youngblood
03-30-2005, 09:04
Would you run the 'why' part of all this by me again? I don't feel that everything about the trail should be free... it takes money to keep organizations afloat and to keep food on peoples table. I would rather see us cooperating with the ATC and ALDHA (and possibly Wingfoot) to make their products better than take away much needed revenues.

Youngblood

smokymtnsteve
03-30-2005, 09:08
great idea MM...web access is increasing along the trail so let the web carry your data book instead if your back.

Peaks
03-30-2005, 09:17
The written word, such as Wingfoot's Handbook and the ALDHA Companion, will become obsolete when we all carry electronics to download the information as we hike along.

Until then, forums such at this certainly help with the planning and preparation. But, I'll continue to carry pages from one of the books to help me with the decisions that come up every day while hiking. quesitons like how far to the next shelter, to the next water source, to the next town, etc.

SGT Rock
03-30-2005, 09:45
A few thoughts on this:

I am not really 100% happy with either the Companion or the Thru-Hikers handbook. They both have ways they could improve in my opinion. But if they changed for me, then someone else wouldn't like the lay out.

What I would pay money for is a program that included a database that let me set up how I wanted my info laid out and what info I wanted or didn't want included and then print out my own data book for the sections I wanted. It would be something like the map software where you could print out your own maps and include what trail data you use in that you buy the software, for a regular fee you could keep up with database updates. The database could include everything in the section books that the ATC sells (are you listening ATC?).

1. In the query set up you could select what data you want and what you want to exclude. So if you want more of the small mileage indicators in those books, you can have them, or if you only want water, shelter, and town data you can get that - plus any level of info in between like campsite data.

2. You could set up to have northbound mileage on one side and southbound on the other or you could set it up to do miles from Springer and Katahdin or like the data book - from and too smaller sections along the trail.

3. Using this you could also either lay it out with all the shelter and town data at the point you cross them in the trail, or do like the Thru-Hiker handbook and have a separate table for the mileage and points and then a table for the shelters and/or towns.

4. Different printer set ups so you could get the size and lay out you wanted. I would make mine a top bound flip book printed front to back on pages about the size of a CD jewel case so I could set it up like my old unit SOPs and report books.

I feel that the ATC could actually do this because the system would simply take data entered and put it into a database. A section editor could go out and check their trail after reroutes and simply set the mileage point on the trail and input the entry and the entire mileage data for the trail would update like a spreadsheet. It would probably take about one person for each book in the series about a month of work and then a few editors some time to check all the entries, but then the books would be easier to revise and update if they were based off the same database.

jlb2012
03-30-2005, 10:16
For the most part I agree with SGT Rock with a few extensions.

The concept that I had was a data base possibly in the form of a large spreadsheet where the user can selectively hide information that is of no interest to the user. Included in the information would be GPS coords for major items such as road crossings, AYCE places, shelters, hostels, motels, major springs/other water sources, etc. These GPS coords would be easily usable (ie a hyperlink provided by the data base/spreadsheet) to link to an online product such as TopoZone to bring up a map of the location. Included in the capability of the data base/spread sheet would be links to photos of shelters, planning tools, distance calculators, etc. - in other words things that an online user would want for planning purposes. Linear distance on the trail would be calculated for the user based on the user's start point and direction from the database's incremental distance measurements - in addition to being more user friendly this allows easier maintanence of the trail data in the data base.

When the user has finished his planning process the user would then print out the desired information in the format that the user wants in much the same way as SGT Rock described. In addition GPS coords could be downloaded to a GPS and business phone numbers could be downloaded into a cell phone. :D

weary
03-30-2005, 10:29
Would you run the 'why' part of all this by me again? I don't feel that everything about the trail should be free... it takes money to keep organizations afloat and to keep food on peoples table. I would rather see us cooperating with the ATC and ALDHA (and possibly Wingfoot) to make their products better than take away much needed revenues. Youngblood
The Maine Appalachian Trail Club earns a steady $25,000 a year from the sale of it's maps and trail guide. That's about three times what we earn from membership dues.

Such sales are a critical part of our $150,000 annual budget, as it is for the Appalachian Trail Conference.

Weary

Rain Man
03-30-2005, 10:52
... Included in the information would be GPS coords for major items such as road crossings, AYCE places, shelters, hostels, motels, major springs/other water sources, etc. ...

Why does anyone need a GPS coordinate for a road crossing, etc or anything on the AT?

This is an honest question, I'm not trying to argue, but to understand. I don't have a GPS, that might be the problem. I just can't see how a GPS helps me find Neels Gap any more than a map, for instance.

What am I missing?

Rain:sunMan

.

hikerjohnd
03-30-2005, 10:56
The Maine Appalachian Trail Club earns a steady $25,000 a year from the sale of it's maps and trail guide. That's about three times what we earn from membership dues.

Such sales are a critical part of our $150,000 annual budget, as it is for the Appalachian Trail Conference.

Weary
So would offering another resource, possibly designed to replace other resources, be critically detrimental to other trail organizations?:-?

jlb2012
03-30-2005, 11:22
Why does anyone need a GPS coordinate for a road crossing, etc or anything on the AT?

This is an honest question, I'm not trying to argue, but to understand. I don't have a GPS, that might be the problem. I just can't see how a GPS helps me find Neels Gap any more than a map, for instance.

What am I missing?

Rain:sunMan

.

The use of GPS coords is mainly to enable the user to pull up a map from TopoZone or other mapping service and to allow a user driving to a trainhead to find the trailhead easier. Personally while hiking on the trail I have no use whatsoever for a GPS but in town or driving to a trailhead/road crossing I find them to be useful. The key item here is to have the link to a map from an online service which is useful during planning and avoids the problem of creating the maps to begin with.

TJ aka Teej
03-30-2005, 11:45
The written word, such as Wingfoot's Handbook and the ALDHA Companion, will become obsolete when we all carry electronics to download the information as we hike along.In 2002 I did a survey in Maine about which resources LD AT hikers had used. The most used book was the DataBook. The most used website was TrailJournals. Maps got only one mention. One real surprise (for me) was the hiker I met at Speck Pond who had constructed her own guide. She had info from the Companion, Handbook, DataBook, and things she culled from reading online journals and books loaded onto a PDA. She also would call friends hiking ahead and behind to get and give trail conditions becuase she wanted up to date info. She was on her way to a Phish concert with some other hikers. I knew then that eventually through cut and paste, piracy, wifi, real time, et al, hiker NextGen AT'07 will always know what's around the next bend and over the next rise, what's in the hiker box at The Barn, if the water at the next ford is rising or falling, who's staying at the Birches, if there's an open tentsite at Rainbow Spring, and even if there's TP at the next privy. Will WB replace guidebooks? No way. The info we type this morning on WB is already too stale for NextGen AT '07.

The Old Fhart
03-30-2005, 11:53
Rain Man-"Why does anyone need a GPS coordinate for a road crossing, etc or anything on the AT?

This is an honest question, I'm not trying to argue, but to understand. I don't have a GPS, that might be the problem. I just can't see how a GPS helps me find Neels Gap any more than a map, for instance."I don't carry a GPS when I hike but I can see where if there was a problem and emergency services needed to get to some location, GPS would help. As a point of interest, the ATC has the location of about 290 shelters on or close to the A.T. in a downloadable file that can be used with a GPS. These locations (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/protect/gis/GPSdata.html), or waypoints, as they are called, could be thought of like the necessary street addresses in the 9-1-1 emergency system.

Pencil Pusher
03-30-2005, 13:12
the 9 year old or the 12 year old....let me check the TBI list of sex offenders first :)

convenience? if you have a printer and internet access to WB then you could have beyond the Thru-hikers handbook almost instantly (well depending on which files from the Article Section you decide to download, how fast you connect speed is, and how fast your printer is)..........
Eh... This isn't your daughter? http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/3910/sort/1/cat/500/page/3
This is in the humor thread, no? ;)

Convenience, dude. Hop online to Amazon, buy a book, live life as normal till it arrives. Badda bing, badda boom. Plus people still like something tangible to hold on to. Or, the day the handbook gets replaced by the internet is the day the newspapers go out of business.

hawkeye
03-30-2005, 13:30
I think every lean-to should have a web cam. That way I can see if it is full!

HikerHobo
03-30-2005, 13:51
WhiteBlaze is a great sourse of info to be used on the trail. However, I'm not sure I WANT all the mysteries of the trail ahead answered for me. Is there water ahead? Is there a spot at the next shelter? Who's in the next shelter? What's in the next town? I think I'll just leave some of the surprises open ended. To me that's part of the adventure. Preparing for the unknown. The mystery of the trail is part of the adventure. IMHO :confused:

Jack Tarlin
03-30-2005, 14:11
I think that participating here, and helping to make this site a better place than it already is, are fine endeavors. Along those lines, I think Sgt. Rock's recent suggestion that more folks contribute full-length articles is a very good one.

But instead of trying to consciously "replace" any of the standard Trail Guides, I intend to spend more of my time and energy helping to improve present ones, which is one of the reasons I'm going to be one of the New Hampshire Field editors for next year's Thru-Hiker's Companion, and I also hope to offer some sugestions to the senior editorial staff on how they can improve this book. An added benefit to helping make the Companion better would be that in addition to greatly helping the hikers by offering them a more complete and useful resource, it would also help raise some revenue for both the ATC and ALDHA, the co-publishers of the book.

alanthealan
03-30-2005, 14:35
Would you run the 'why' part of all this by me again? I don't feel that everything about the trail should be free... it takes money to keep organizations afloat and to keep food on peoples table. I would rather see us cooperating with the ATC and ALDHA (and possibly Wingfoot) to make their products better than take away much needed revenues.

Youngblood
I'm not starting a fight, but... I was just reading last night that Benton MacKaye's ideal was for a retreat away from the complexities of commerce?

The Old Fhart
03-30-2005, 14:48
hawkeye-"I think every lean-to should have a web cam. That way I can see if it is full!"From what I've been able to gather, they are putting web cams at all road crossings first, to make sure everyone's claim of an unsupported hike is true. :D

Peaks
03-30-2005, 17:06
I think that participating here, and helping to make this site a better place than it already is, are fine endeavors. Along those lines, I think Sgt. Rock's recent suggestion that more folks contribute full-length articles is a very good one.

But instead of trying to consciously "replace" any of the standard Trail Guides, I intend to spend more of my time and energy helping to improve present ones, which is one of the reasons I'm going to be one of the New Hampshire Field editors for next year's Thru-Hiker's Companion, and I also hope to offer some sugestions to the senior editorial staff on how they can improve this book. An added benefit to helping make the Companion better would be that in addition to greatly helping the hikers by offering them a more complete and useful resource, it would also help raise some revenue for both the ATC and ALDHA, the co-publishers of the book.

Well Jack, I hope that ALDHA welcomes your contributions. Certainly you have contributed some good articles hear on WB.

Trail Guides, Companion, Data Book, various other books, and sites like WB all serve their purpose. But, if Handbook can be downloaded onto a PDA, no one says it needs to be free. It can still required buying a password or something.

A-Train
03-30-2005, 20:18
I guess my question is why do those publications need to be replaced? I don't use the Companion because the info has proven to be incorrect and not updated at times, but I find the Handbook to be pretty accurate. I don;t really see any need to get rid of it, because it's solid already. It's the reason folks have been carrying the book for the past decade, despite their feelings about the author.

And as popular as WB has gotten recently, there are still a large number of prespective hikers who don't know about the site, don't use computers or have no interest in spending time online to get their info from.

As stated I think we should work to improve the info here and in the books, but not change or fix what is not broken

MOWGLI
03-30-2005, 20:22
From what I've been able to gather, they are putting web cams at all road crossings first, to make sure everyone's claim of an unsupported hike is true. :D

If that's true, it won't be long before people start moning the web cams.

smokymtnsteve
03-30-2005, 20:24
HI JACK and I ain't taking about no airplane. :D

smokymtnsteve
03-30-2005, 20:25
but not change or fix what is not broken


I felt the same way about the ATC ..but

walkin' wally
03-30-2005, 22:07
I
For WB members would it be too much to ask for routine visits to a particular section, a section you may happen to maintain, live close to, hike regularly?

Would it be a lot to ask thru-hikers to adopt a certain section of trail after their hike is over, a section they can report on with regularity?

I'm sure DebW can vividly describe her area well at any given time. Wouldnt it be nice if the entire trail could be done the same.

MedicineMan

Just curious

What did you have in mind exactly regarding WB members visiting their sections or favorite areas? Is this to submit a report of that area for a source of recent information?

For instance in a few short weeks I hope to be at the AT at Rainbow Lake cutting blowdowns.

Where would it be found or submitted to at WB? Would this go in the articles section if there is a place created ?

Walkin Wally

max patch
03-30-2005, 22:34
I guess my question is why do those publications need to be replaced? I don't use the Companion because the info has proven to be incorrect and not updated at times, but I find the Handbook to be pretty accurate. I don;t really see any need to get rid of it, because it's solid already. It's the reason folks have been carrying the book for the past decade, despite their feelings about the author.


This thread didn't get started because Medicine Man really thought these publications needed replaced. The truth of the matter is that Medicine Man -- posting under another name -- was a troll on Wingfoots site. Wingfoot outed him and identified the troll as Medicine Man. (To his credit, WF did not disclose Medicine Mans real name or email addy) This whole thread was started as a way to get back at Wingfoot. Nothing more and nothing less.

Be that as it may, if anyone is really concerned that the existing guidebooks are not adequate, then the way to address the problem is to work with the ATC to improve the Companion. The infrastructure is already in place. And if a new and improved guidebook is created than the revenues will flow to the ATC which is a positive thing for the trail.

Sly
03-30-2005, 23:23
... otherwise, it's going to cost me what... for the time, paper, ink, PDA, batteries, etc.? :confused:

MedicineMan
03-31-2005, 13:40
There are few of us willing to carry a PDA on the trail, only because the curren 'us' is an 'older' generation and the PDA's are 'older' too. But soon there will be a time when PDA's are really small and combo units at the same time. Many now carry cell phones-that debate can be found elsewhere- but in the very near future (I know they are already out there) very concise PDA/Phone units will be affordable-even free with certain services, couple this with integral GPS, you get the point.
Sgt. Rock drives home the ultimate point and that is customization.
Download the files you want.
Download the files you need.
Download what is relavent to your hike.
With the vast amount of data that will or is currently in the Articles Section of WB one will be able to taylor exactly what they carry.
Print is out like Sgt Rock said in a size format to suit you.
Save it to a new generation PDA mentioned above.

Someone asked why GPS? maybe not so useful for a thru-hiker but section hikers are often looking for a trailhead that may not be so easy to find (maybe they split their section ending on a forest service road in the middle of nowhere).....the power of the PDA is quite remarkable other than easily carrying a concise electonic version of WB's Guide to the AT or the others out there:
1. another place to back up digital photos in case of loss of card or camera
2. method of doing 'pocket mail'
3. method of surfing to WB
4. journaling while in camp
5. reading (1 gb SD card can hold hundres of books)
6. other things we havent thought of next

Ultimately what I'm saying is that WB has the ability, potential, to offer what the others do not. It (WE) have the ability to offer exactly what a hiker needs, be them thru'w, sectioners, or day hikers.

The key is FREE and CUSTOMIZATION.

I didnt start this thread to debate the use of technology on the trail, reality is that it is used....personally i prefer hard copies (especially the note card type system Sgt Rock spoke of) to electronic devices, yet I carry a cell phone AND have used it during an emergency....If i'm going to carry a cell phone why not let it be a PDA too, a PDA that has an almost unlimited data set?

The hidden agenda: WB is a reality site. We OPENLY share info, opinions. We OPENLY argue-often to the point of absurdity. WB doesnt hide behind a tree of belief when a forest of actual use is unstoppable and in front of our faces.
Why argue when we can do?

MM

Robusto
03-31-2005, 22:19
[QUOTE=Rain Man]Why does anyone need a GPS coordinate for a road crossing, etc or anything on the AT?)

I do use a gps on the AT but it's in the winter when the snow stuck to the trees
invariablly forms in patches two by six inches in size. Very confusing, but FUN!

Robusto

Pencil Pusher
03-31-2005, 23:06
Maybe science will turn us into living computers via implants. Then how would we know the difference between a 'video' of walking the AT and actually walking it?

owl
04-01-2005, 01:38
A book is not subject to power failure or total loss of information due to a bad computer command or worse yet some geeks homemade virus; also in itself the internet does not clear trails or build shelters, personally I use the internet with some reluctance, there are no power outlets on roan mountain or at the top of katadhin: and at best WB is a socialized anarchy. The books shall outlive the internet as soon as the power is shut off.WB can be a good tool for the socialization of folks with a common bond, but it does cost money to keep it operational. The internet is not FREE it is only preceived as free by those who fail to look at the actual working cost. perspective use it or lose it.......
XX/OO OWL

smokymtnsteve
04-01-2005, 01:40
Maybe science will turn us into living computers via implants. Then how would we know the difference between a 'video' of walking the AT and actually walking it?

oh Brave New World!!

SGT Rock
04-01-2005, 03:57
Just for the record: I don't think we are attempting to make the guidebooks obsolete. Maybe some of the planning books, but not the guidebooks.


One real surprise (for me) was the hiker I met at Speck Pond who had constructed her own guide. She had info from the Companion, Handbook, DataBook, and things she culled from reading online journals and books loaded onto a PDA
I had thought about doing this. It seemed like a very large project for one person to do for an entire thru-hike, but it might be worth it. The problem as I saw it for me was I will probably not get a chance to thru-hike until 2007 or 2009, and there will be changes that are hard to keep up with. But my guess was that I was probably not the only one that felt like this and I also bet that others would like the idea if they saw the utility of it. BTW: I also don't want to use a PDA.

ALDA does a good job of updating their guide and putting it in pdf format every year. Changing to a database wouldn't be too hard for them in that they could use the database every year to update their guide. And as I said, I would pay just as much for just the database as I would for the guide. If I could import the database into Microsloth Access I could set it up to print in whatever for I wanted. I see this as a way to upgrade to keep up with the technology while still making money to support the ATC.

Honestly, if I had the programming skills to write the software package myself I would volunteer to do it and offer it to ALDA and/or the ATC.

StarLyte
04-01-2005, 08:25
I think every lean-to should have a web cam. That way I can see if it is full!

Ha ha ha you're pushin it Hawkeye. That was pretty darn good.
StarLyte

Peaks
04-01-2005, 09:01
Maybe this should be another thread, but I'd say there is definate room and opportunity for guidebooks to change. Over the decades trails like the AT have become much better mapped and trampled. Plus, maps have improved dramatically. So there is really little need for a detailed narrative of how the trail twists and turns. We may use them for information in a guidebook, such as shelter locations, water sources, distance and climbs. But very few read the trail descriptions. And certainly no one packs along a guidebook for too long.