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View Full Version : Well look out-LEAVE YOUR CHILD AT HOME!



Wise Old Owl
04-14-2012, 22:08
I HOPE I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION! - Here is the rub.... Folks I just completed another section at Pinnacle and Pulpit in Hamburg Pa, (5x) and had a wonderful time.... and of course saw a few newbs... (more then ever before) and that's OK too. What I observed are really BAD dads! no not MOM"S - DADS! If you are a huge hiker and experienced this is clearly not about you!

I observed several dads "Dragging" 6 year old tiny - no energy girls and boys up to the pinnacle by way of the the reservoir near Port Clinton.... and because this has come up before in the past - IT IS no section hike for kids because of the PA rocks.... IT's just plain wrong...

I stopped a dad coming up the right way from the reservoir "but left too late in the day" because the six year old ( YEA I ASKED) girl was two miles from the lot and - well I saw her face,,,,They asked! and I broke them with humor and said " Hey you are wonderful for bringing the kids up - and I am sure you would like to hear its around the corner or 1/2 a mile. the truth is you are 3/4's to the helicopter pad and more than 2 miles to the Pinnacle...

HE was listening... and concerned. and really did the right thing - and had a very young baby... in the backpack...



This is a high volume area of the AT and this attracts folks from four states away....

When approached by others do you do the right thing?

DO tell.........What is your take on this?

Pedaling Fool
04-14-2012, 22:21
My take, is that those little rugrats better know how fortunate they are for not being born during the paleolithic period. Week rugrats were dropped...no turning back.

Only the strong survived:)

Wise Old Owl
04-14-2012, 22:22
oh damn - I forgot the seatbelt to the office chair again thanks John....

coach lou
04-14-2012, 22:37
Now this is karma.. timing....whatever. I just added a pic in my gallery of getting the step kids camping. we have done all sorts of camping since I showed up in their lives, some hiking. My G-scout leader wife wants her girls to go backpacking. When I teach Power Skating I teach 1 movement at a time, we do not sprint, stickhandle, and shoot in the first lesson on the ice. With that said, I've had too many parents that wanted that Stanley Cup in that first lesson.........and there is just no reasoning with those people. Now my sons first pack trip was the blue blaze trip to Stratton pond to Bourne pond and back to the road, nice 3 days maybe 10 miles total, relatively flat.

rocketsocks
04-14-2012, 22:43
My experience was some what different,It was the kids always dragging me to the trails.But,yes I have seen parents taking there kids for a long walk or bicycle ride knowing that the parking lot was so much farther than they told there kids,no I didn't have the heart to tell those poor crying little ones that in fact there parents were mean and that the end of there day would not be over for another hour and a half.You see a lot of this at the pay one price amusement parks,by 11:00am the kids are spent and staggering behind there parents being dragged by one arm.Consequently we took ours to disney when they were 9 and 12,it was a good time.

Wise Old Owl
04-15-2012, 08:55
On the way up to the pulpit were two guys coming down with four - "three, four, and five" year olds and were carring them down the rocks in both arms....I wish I had a photo, half way down one of the dads lost his balance and fell on one kid.

coach lou
04-15-2012, 09:04
On the way up to the pulpit were two guys coming down with four - "three, four, and five" year olds and were carring them down the rocks in both arms....I wish I had a photo, half way down one of the dads lost his balance and fell on one kid.

If it was the 3 yr old, maybe he won't remember it, and someday return to hike again!

auntie tei
04-15-2012, 09:19
Can I jump in on this, since I'm a mom it may not count. All of my children (3) were "dragged" out hiking at an early age . . . but . . I a researchaholic. Each and ever step of the trip was planned, each item carried was planned, even on a daytrip I carried items for an emergency overnight, I kept an eye on then and never started them out on a trail that I have not done a few times so that I would know the dangers or pitfalls or researched to it's utmost. The oldest child and I still do 9 day section hikes on the AT every year. (he is now the planaholic). And when I say "dragged" I truly mean encouraged. The trips were not a "good for you, whether you like it or not" adventure. But then again, I'm just weird I guess, I feel if you force them then they may never return on their own when they are older.

Wise Old Owl
04-15-2012, 09:40
Welcome Auntie! first post since you joined in Jan 2009. Yea I was "dragged" out at ten. but these guys were carrying the kids out.... much of the trail can be jeep access roads - and this section is not one of them.

Pedaling Fool
04-15-2012, 10:08
Welcome Auntie! first post since you joined in Jan 2009..
Don't feel bad Auntie, I joined www.bikeforums.net (http://www.bikeforums.net) in 2006, but didn't post until 2011:)

Odd Man Out
04-15-2012, 10:21
I "dragged" my kids to National Parks when little. At one point they rebelled, choosing to stay in the car because the YNP geyser basins smelled bad. Also "dragged" them through art galleries. One actually sat on bench in the middle of the room and covered her eyes so she wouldn't see any of the art. Oh well, I tried and no one died.

auntie tei
04-15-2012, 10:24
I joined because I didn't have to ask because you have the info available, I just read mainly. Like I said I'm a researchaholic more or less. I may never post again, or at least for a few more years. Right now I'm just searching for a way to get a dog to Springer, but noticed this thread and have experienced the visual of people dragging kids for their own good. My kids hiked, biked, and kayaked with me. My youngest bikes everywhere, middle child rows as if in crew, and oldest child does it all

Wise Old Owl
04-15-2012, 10:27
Well I am glad you posted and with that kind of research I hope you weigh in more and join in on the dog thread - I bet you have a lot to offer.

auntie tei
04-15-2012, 10:57
I've been looking for a dog thread, as for the dog, small beagle, extremely well trained with people and trails, never off a leash so on and so forth. Where is this dog thread

Wise Old Owl
04-15-2012, 11:53
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?439-Dogs-on-the-Appalachian-Trail

Use the forum key next to the home key at the top left. Scroll down.

oldbear
04-15-2012, 12:07
That's why parents should secure their day packs to Kelty external pack frames
That way when their kids get too tired to walk they can use the pack frame to carry the kid off the mountain ala Herzog on Annapurna

Nutbrown
04-15-2012, 12:28
I'm not familiar with this hike, but I gathered from the op that it is 2.5-2.7 miles up. Were the kids hauling a pack? Were the kids overweight? If they take all day to do it, with a few hours at the top for lunch and naps, is it really that bad? Is this a dangerous portion of the at? Help me understand why it is a bad area for kids. I don't mean this to be an argument, just trying to understand.

ljcsov
04-15-2012, 12:36
I really don't see what the big deal is. As long as the kid can walk he/she can tackle short hikes but normally need to be prodded along. At 10 my dad took me out on 10 mile hikes and I remember loving it. Of course, I'd get sleepy at the end and would sometimes have to ride in on his back, but it wasn't like I felt abused in any manner. I believe at a young age it gave me a sense of accomplishment when it was all said and done.

To recall, I actually hiked up Mount Washington at around the age of 12. Granted, my father and I weren't as experienced as some hikers and lacked most of the fancy gear, but either way we made it to the top without any issue. I think its good to instill a sense of toughness in a child to show them what they can truly accomplish on their own. Many people who are coddled throughout their life never get to experience their actual physical potential.

Those kids may be less than pleased, but they'll be thankful later.

hikerboy57
04-15-2012, 12:43
i learned my lesson a while back taking my kids on a day hike up in Minnewaska state park, took the long route instead of the short route and ended up carryin my 10 yr old and 7 year old the last half mile back to the parking lot.car. took them 2 miles too far.
i was redeemed, however, by and end of hike swim in lake minnewaska, and although they grew up on the beach, had never swam in a lake before, it was a treat, and the cold water healed their aching feet. it became fondly known as "daddys death march".

Wise Old Owl
04-15-2012, 14:35
Good story - I hope you have many more "Marches" in the future.... I am thinking a few circle trails when young under a mile or two in the woods or beach, but nothing serious until ten to twelve years of age.

hikerboy57
04-15-2012, 14:40
Good story - I hope you have many more "Marches" in the future.... I am thinking a few circle trails when young under a mile or two in the woods or beach, but nothing serious until ten to twelve years of age.
im looking forward to my second go round as my daughter is expecting my first granddaughter in May.
gives me an excuse to watch cartoons again, as well as a visit to the childrens zoo.

OBXWaMi
04-15-2012, 15:18
I took my 6 year-old granddaughter on OUR very first hike this weekend. I definitely didn't drag her, she has been begging me to take her hiking since September when I started talking about it. I started researching and reading long before deciding to take her along. We also camped out in the backyard and then a local campground to see how she would do out-of-doors. She is in GoFAR (Go Out For A Run) at school and has 2 5k races under her belt, so I knew she was fit enough for it. She carried her school backpack with a half-size inflatable sleeping pad, a polar fleece sleeping bag liner, a change of clothes, water, bug spray and snacks. She carried it all but 2 or 3 of the the 13 miles we hiked yesterday. My 17 year old daughter went too. We all had a GREAT time.

A child who whines and cries makes the trip miserable for everyone. It isn't fair to the child or the adults around them. Leave them HOME!

rocketsocks
04-15-2012, 15:18
im looking forward to my second go round as my daughter is expecting my first granddaughter in May.
gives me an excuse to watch cartoons again, as well as a visit to the childrens zoo.That and more,like;milk out the nose,thee ole pull my finger,where does it end?congrats on your expecting...Gramps

hikerboy57
04-15-2012, 17:07
That and more,like;milk out the nose,thee ole pull my finger,where does it end?congrats on your expecting...Gramps
twinkies.
i just hope i get my figure back!:)

Pedaling Fool
04-15-2012, 17:20
A child who whines and cries makes the trip miserable for everyone. It isn't fair to the child or the adults around them. Leave them HOME!Why not just leave them in the woods

Tinker
04-15-2012, 17:32
I just got back from that area today and noticed the same thing.

I just hope the dads teach their kids not to litter. The Knife Edge, particularly, was a mess of garbage.

rocketsocks
04-15-2012, 18:19
I just got back from that area today and noticed the same thing.

I just hope the dads teach their kids not to litter. The Knife Edge, particularly, was a mess of garbage.I'm visualizing that old Indian with tear running down his face after seeing a bunch of garbage.

joshuasdad
04-15-2012, 18:46
Some of those hikers may have been coming from the campground below the Pinnacle and Pulpit, that would be a much easier hike. I found that section to be particularly miserable, though I was 10 miles in at that point. The rocks, especially near the Pulpit, are killer.

If you do take kids out, do make sure you have good information. I "thought" I was taking my kid out for a 2 mile, 500 ft. elevation gain hike based on a trail profile, but the trail profile had "smoothed out" a 300 ft steep drop to a stream. Sure enough, about 500 ft up the climb, my daughter was claiming she was going to die, and she could not breathe. I learned I could carry an unbalanced 80+ pound pack, though not very far...

Wombat Farm
04-15-2012, 20:55
I'm not sure exactly how things were but...when my kids were little I started backpacking with them after I had been doing it for about a year or so. My two boys were about 7 and 9 when I started them doing overnighters. I very much knew what I was doing growing up being "dragged" up the high peaks in NH. My youngest who was always a bit dramatic (haha understatement), would have appeared as being on a forced march to many onlookers but...I knew his ability and whenever we got to a peak he'd turn to me and kiss me and say "thank you thank you for making me come on the trip!"....Cottling kids is not doing them a favor. Now having said this, I do think the parents must be experienced and always be under control and not show "fear" to their kids if it turns out things are not as they seem. Start them slow I agree...until my kids were "experienced" I always carried nearly everything but made them carry their clothing and sleeping bags (not dodgey heavy crap ones either) and we had an awesome time.

And remember....everyone (even kids) are green for awhile. :welcome

DLANOIE
04-15-2012, 21:31
Guess I will chime in here. Thanks for the thread Woo. And welcome aboard Auntie! Dont forget to post pics of your dog(s) on my "meet my dog thread".

I got into hiking on my own. Its always been a personal experience, backpacking, for me. I got a bike when I was 15 and rode it from Nashua, NH to just north of Franconia Notch State Park. Bought all my gear at walmart and camped out off the road in the woods for a month in the summer. The next summer I rode my bike to Vermont just near the NH/VT border. I think the road was rte. 101 west or something like that. Camped out the whole time. Did some fishing, had a blast! Then I started hiking BIG mountains and eventually over the next 4 years I finished all of the New England highest peaks including Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. In 06 I hiked the AT sobo. Now I have two boys, 3 and 5. I take them on 1-2 mile loop hikes all around where I live. Mostly Belgrade Lakes Region. They have both hiked some of the AT, but not much yet. They love it and have alot of fun most of the time. Even in the winter!! I recently got a new tent which I hope to use with my oldest son atleast once this summer. That would be awesome!

I agree with you Wombat Farm 100%. If the parents are experienced, then teaching their kids about ettiquete, LNT, history etc will come easily. If the parents are just out "dragging" their kids it will show!

Wise Old Owl
04-15-2012, 21:41
Some of those hikers may have been coming from the campground below the Pinnacle and Pulpit, that would be a much easier hike. I found that section to be particularly miserable, though I was 10 miles in at that point. The rocks, especially near the Pulpit, are killer.

If you do take kids out, do make sure you have good information. I "thought" I was taking my kid out for a 2 mile, 500 ft. elevation gain hike based on a trail profile, but the trail profile had "smoothed out" a 300 ft steep drop to a stream. Sure enough, about 500 ft up the climb, my daughter was claiming she was going to die, and she could not breathe. I learned I could carry an unbalanced 80+ pound pack, though not very far...


Blue rocks wasn't busy... However the the reservoir is under construction and the parking lot there was closed - so the street was incredibly packed. there were three separate boy scout groups spending the weekend. And loads of day hikers and section.... I am in the process of uploading to my gallery. I appreciate you post because people who are unfamiliar with WB will Google or Bing and this thread will bubble to the top in a few days.

Crotalus
04-16-2012, 15:08
I think you need to be conscious of your kids abilities. back in 2010 we vacationed in Maine and spent a couple days running around Baxter. We considered hiking up Katahdin, but on the morning we were supposed to go we decided that it might be too much for the kids. We ended up doing some of the loop trails through the park and I am glad we did, it made for a much more enjoyable day and overall trip for them.

DAJA
04-16-2012, 15:26
Two little girls in NH are laughing at this thread as they both bagged all 48 of NH 4000 footers by the age of 6. One of them did all 48 in the winter. Don't fall for the coddle stereotypes, kids are capable when we allow them to be.

English Stu
04-16-2012, 15:48
I know there are lot of these stories about, but I will add mine. When I was finishing the JMT I passed a Dad going up to Whitney with his unprepared son,aged about seven.This was about 3pm and having just been up there I knew at best they had four hours to do there and back and there was a several inches of snow on Whitney. I passed many going up who had little hope of completing to Whitney.

Up there we were so concerned about one guy who was so slow coming down we offered him a tent, we could double up at a pinch. We saw him go through base camp about one in the morning. He had a room booked at the Dow in Lone Pine he probably got there about time for breakfast. He did make it because we asked SAR if they had been called out.

BabySue
04-16-2012, 18:24
Sacagawea-Blazing?

hikerboy57
04-16-2012, 18:58
Two little girls in NH are laughing at this thread as they both bagged all 48 of NH 4000 footers by the age of 6. One of them did all 48 in the winter. Don't fall for the coddle stereotypes, kids are capable when we allow them to be.
this sounds incredible. where can i find more information about these two?

Tinker
04-16-2012, 19:34
My son did four of the "Four Thousand Footers" in NH in his 4th year of life. (I had to carry him down a few times because he was afraid of falling :D).

Yes, kids generally pick up on the "Can do" or "Can't do" attitude of their parents. FWIW, though, I chose mountains of low elevation and easy trails for my son to hike. Unfortunately, he got into video games and the like and doesn't really care to do any hiking on his own, though he will come with me on occasion (his pic. is in my photo selection here on top of Katahdin in '08).

Don't push your kids too much and they will enjoy the experience. Bring lots of treats and make sure they drink lots of liquids, sugared or not. Dehydration is a big problem for kids because of their higher surface area per pound of body weight than adults. Bringing a ball or frisbee is a great distraction (and you can use the frisbee as a mouse baffle :p).

rocketsocks
04-17-2012, 00:06
On a trip last summer to a cival war reenactment,my wife said our daughter was acting funny and slurring her words.Immedietly I recognized this as dehydration and promptyly got her something to drink.now she was 14 mind you but you still have to watch out even us adults can get it if were not paying attention.

DAJA
04-17-2012, 20:46
http://trishandalex.blogspot.ca/

fiddlehead
04-17-2012, 21:36
Took my 6 year old and his 9 year old buddy on a short jungle hike here in Thailand a few days ago.
This hike was only about 1/2 mile and fairly level.
Should've been easy.
However, we got attacked by leeches.
Now I spend a lot of time in the jungles here in Thailand but, this was the 1st time I had leech problems.
We each had about 4-6 on us, drawing blood, of course.

Needless to say, the kids don't want to go back.
The whole purpose of the easy hike was to get them immersed in a different Thailand than they are used to and see that the jungle can be beautiful.
Didn't work.
It might take years to get them over their new fear.

But, the alternative just may be that they will be spending their time in front of a TV or computer instead.
So, it's not a too terrible thing (the dads in Berks county hiking with their kids) IMO.

fiddlehead
04-17-2012, 21:46
Here's the view from the end of that hike.
The beginning was in the background.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/th_IMG_1750.jpg ("http://[URL=http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/?action=view&current=IMG_1750.jpg)"]

miloandotis
04-17-2012, 21:48
I think the bottom line is how prepared the parent is, knowing the kids abilities and training them. My kids have been doing day hikes since they could walk...now ages 16, 12 and 9. That means the 12 and 9 year olds started hiking earlier than the 16 yo. Before they could walk, they were in the child carrier. (Ah-ha moment: Since my hubby or I carried a child and the other a backpack with supplies for all, that may explain my lack of care/interest in the UL way---was so used to carrying so much weight from the beginning!!) My 12 and 9 year olds are going to start over nights this year. The only reason we didn't start over nights with them sooner was time and money. If we had those resources earlier, they would already be section hikers by now.

fins1838
04-17-2012, 21:49
u a hockey ref? me too

coach lou
04-17-2012, 21:58
u a hockey ref? me too

31 seasons, USA HOCKEY & NIHOA. From Tom Leonard Shelter to Pawling there are about a half dozen Prep schools. When I work The Berkshire school early in the day , I hike up to Mt. Everitt and stay in one of the shelters. I got out six times this season, walked all of the trail except Falls Village to St. johns Ledges........and got payed! Of course this non-winter helped.

Blissful
04-17-2012, 22:07
I saw a nine yr old girl hike the Presidentials with ease.

Kids these days are not used to ruggedness but easy, couch potato living. I applaud parents willing to expose them to the tough stuff of nature. Bet they can get around rocks easier then us oldie moldies.

jeffmeh
04-18-2012, 00:16
Kids are more capable than most think, particularly in this age of "helicopter" parents. Mine started their hiking in a pack on my back before they could walk. My son learned at age 5 the importance of keeping well fed and hydrated, and of regulating body temperature through proper layering. This "teachable moment" presented itself when his refusal to take that advice resulted in a tantrum on Lion's Head, with said tantrum consuming enough time that I had to inform him that we did not have enough daylight left to safely summit Washington. He summitted it a few years later, had all 48 in NH by age 17, and just passed 1,000 miles today at Harpers Ferry on his way to Katahdin.

That said, I was not a novice and clearly understood his limits, which happened to be all mental. Over the years, I have learned many of my limits are the same, lol.

rocketsocks
04-18-2012, 01:19
I'm visualizing that old Indian with tear running down his face after seeing a bunch of garbage.Thread Drift;So I'm watching this show last night(Documentary)on Forest(Asa)Carter,the author of "The outlaw Josey Wales"and in that show they come to a part where they identify the indian in the commercial as no other than"Iron Eye Cody"and he is Italian,not native american,too funny...for me,thanks for your endulgence.just a piece of useless knowledge.

jersey joe
04-18-2012, 08:45
IT IS no section hike for kids because of the PA rocks.... IT's just plain wrong...

DO tell.........What is your take on this?

I think you might be being a bit rough on these Dads. My guess is that they are trying to get their kids out and don't totally know exactly what they are getting themselves into. You really don't know what your kids limits are until you try and I give these Dads credit for trying, even if they do push their kids a bit.

My kids are younger, but I take them on hikes a lot. Some days they are full of energy and have no problems, other days they drag and get cranky. Kids are fickle.

I'm actually looking forward to taking my son out on harder and harder hikes and will do my best to gauge his limits, but even I have come down mountains dragging at times...it happens.

GP1971
04-18-2012, 09:27
It's easy to judge parents at a distance or when you don't know what else is or has gone on that day. We have 3 under 7. Yes there has been some whining but generally we just encourage and try to get them to understand what they are capable of. I carry our gear for now for day hikes where we have done up to 6 miles over a day while also giving them time to play.

fredmugs
04-18-2012, 14:03
I showed my girls pics from McAfee Knob and bet them $10 each they couldn't make it to the top. Needless to say I was out $30.

coach lou
04-18-2012, 14:15
Excellent....I never payed off my son for scoring goals, but I pay my step kids for good grades..... I want them out and in college when it's time and in there own place after!!!!!!!

Nutbrown
04-18-2012, 14:54
I wish someone would pay me to hike!

Samson
04-18-2012, 15:21
I wish someone would pay me to hike!

then join the military lol

coach lou
04-18-2012, 16:15
then join the military lol

That is another of todays topics!!

Nutbrown
04-18-2012, 20:10
then join the military lol

bwahahahahahah!

Wise Old Owl
04-18-2012, 21:07
15769 I was never a "helicoptor" parent - and yes I can be tough on dads.... I was tough on my kid. He's an Eagle Scout too.

BJStuart
04-20-2012, 15:03
Good story - I hope you have many more "Marches" in the future.... I am thinking a few circle trails when young under a mile or two in the woods or beach, but nothing serious until ten to twelve years of age.

My 9 year old was fine on a recent ~5 mile section in MD, with her pack at about 10lbs. Any more I think is too much for her to carry. The next day was shorter and we had a great time!

buzzamania
04-22-2012, 18:10
"Wise" old owl. . . I think you should live and let live. As a father to 6 I have spent all of my free time with my family in the woods, hunting (gasp with real guns!) fishing, hiking and especially backpacking, section hiking on the AT etc. Don't lecture. Focus on cutting pack weight, finding or creating a better stove or something that will enrich your experience and let everyone else do the same. How many kids did you say you had again?

Wise Old Owl
04-22-2012, 18:39
Buzzamania. Clearly we do not know each other - I have a very different purpose to posting this thread here. As a father to 1and from a family of 4 hikers. I have spent all of my free time with my family in the woods, fishing, hiking and especially backpacking, section hiking on the AT etc.This was simply to focus people that are not WB members to think. Lecture? I do focus on cutting pack weight, finding or creating a better stove or something that will enrich everyone's experience. If you notice the first thread It is tagged for google search engines for noobs to find.

I wrote that after doing the pinnacle and pulpit and watched a bunch of dads carting children down the rocks. Boy Scouts escorted old ladies back to their cars after one mile... you took this personally - I preempted folks that knew what they were doing - like yourself. It's IMO and I approve this message. Don't come to the Hamburg area unless you are prepared and have experience. Feel free to visit - we will have a beer summit at the pinnacle and the pulpit and you can judge first hand the couch potato dads for yourself. Its not personal.

FYI it was to change my dad's 75 year old opinion as well, he had a wonderful time.