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Odd Man Out
05-04-2012, 16:45
I've been reading the posts about ticks, and given the situation, I am reconsidering my packing list for backpacing in tick season.
I've seen it reported that loose fitting long pants and long sleeve shirt (woven fabric), treated with permethrin is the best defense against insects. However, I don't see these listed in a lot of packing lists. running shorts, T-shirts, and wool base layers seem to be more popular choices. My question is if you were to add these to your clothing list during tick season, is there something you would take out so as to not add much more to your base weight? How do you work these into a UL layering system for clothing?

Moose2001
05-04-2012, 16:49
By the time you get to the prime tick areas, it's going to be the middle of summer. I couldn't hike in long pants, stuffed into my socks and a long sleeve shirt! Do a good nightly tick check, use some DEET and you'll be OK.

JaxHiker
05-04-2012, 16:52
The answer lays in permethrin, young grasshopper.

Slo-go'en
05-04-2012, 17:29
I've often thought wearing nylon panty hose could work, but would at best get strange looks and at worse, propositions! Do they make high heel hiking boots to complete the look?

I once saw an older couple leaving the DWG in long sleeve shirts, long pants, knee high gaiters and shaking sulfur all over themselfs. (along with a hefty dosage of DEET no doubt). And oh, it was like 95 degrees and wicked humid out too boot! They might not have gotten bitten by a tick, but I bet they kelled over with heat stroke not long after...

FarmerChef
05-04-2012, 17:43
For starters, I'll say HYOH. Our family of 5 hikes about 500 miles a year through prime tick country and prime tick time. Since we are working to avoid as many chemicals in our food and lifestyle as possible, we prefer not to slather ourselves in DEET or Permethrin. We also don't prefer to wear long sleeves and tuck pants into our socks when it's 85 degrees out in the middle of the summer. So those aren't options for us.

One important tidbit to know about Lyme's disease is that, per the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/faq/index.html) the tick must remain attached for longer than 24 hours, and that's for the black-legged ticks (deer ticks) only. Thus, we have used a nightly check routine as our primary line of defense. Of course, we also see them earlier in the day and stop to remove them then. Though two of our four children have been infected with Lyme's from daily life on the farm, none of us have been infected while on the trail. YMMV

Rocket Jones
05-04-2012, 17:47
I use a long sleeved poly shirt that's been treated, and when it's hot I just slide the sleeves up. I also treated a pair of shorts for hot weather, and pay closer attention to the bare parts of my legs.

Sarcasm the elf
05-04-2012, 21:09
For starters, I'll say HYOH. Our family of 5 hikes about 500 miles a year through prime tick country and prime tick time. Since we are working to avoid as many chemicals in our food and lifestyle as possible, we prefer not to slather ourselves in DEET or Permethrin. We also don't prefer to wear long sleeves and tuck pants into our socks when it's 85 degrees out in the middle of the summer. So those aren't options for us.

One important tidbit to know about Lyme's disease is that, per the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/faq/index.html) the tick must remain attached for longer than 24 hours, and that's for the black-legged ticks (deer ticks) only. Thus, we have used a nightly check routine as our primary line of defense. Of course, we also see them earlier in the day and stop to remove them then. Though two of our four children have been infected with Lyme's from daily life on the farm, none of us have been infected while on the trail. YMMV


Hi Farmer Chef and welcome to the site!:welcome

I have a very like minded approach regarding tick precautions. I do wear long pants when I can, however it's just not practical in the summer. Instead, multiple tick checks throughout the day and a THUROUGH check once I have stopped for the night is my precaution.

One thing I would add is that people also need to know the symptoms of Lyme disease and contact a doctor immediately when they suspect they have it. I never got a bulls-eye rash when I contracted Lyme, but fortunately recognized the combination of flu symptoms in the summer and joint aches. Thanks to the doxycycline my doctor put me on things cleared up in a few weeks, but I know it could have been a lot worse.

Wise Old Owl
05-04-2012, 21:26
By the time you get to the prime tick areas, it's going to be the middle of summer. I couldn't hike in long pants, stuffed into my socks and a long sleeve shirt! Do a good nightly tick check, use some DEET and you'll be OK.Tick & Snake started a few months ago....


The answer lays in permethrin, young grasshopper. You are wise......


Hi Farmer Chef and welcome to the site!:welcome

I have a very like minded approach regarding tick precautions. I do wear long pants when I can, however it's just not practical in the summer. Instead, multiple tick checks throughout the day and a THUROUGH check once I have stopped for the night is my precaution. **

One thing I would add is that people also need to know the symptoms of Lyme disease and contact a doctor immediately when they suspect they have it. ***I never got a bulls-eye rash when I contracted Lyme, but fortunately recognized the combination of flu symptoms in the summer and joint aches. Thanks to the doxycycline my doctor put me on things cleared up in a few weeks, but I know it could have been a lot worse. **Forget the checks DWO instead. *** I have had several and keep a months supply of Perscription strengh at all times... as I continue to fight lyme related arthritis first hand. Please do not follow my follyed path...

Energizer Bunny
05-04-2012, 21:27
I used a 1:1 solution of tea tree oil and water that's spray on my boots and didn't get any ticks on my last weekend hike.

hunter121
05-04-2012, 21:34
I love this thread already.
http://www.yourfinancehelper.com/article/today/act.jpg
http://www.yourfinancehelper.com/article/today/lk.jpg

Sarcasm the elf
05-04-2012, 21:35
**Forget the checks DWO instead. *** I have had several and keep a months supply of Perscription strengh at all times... as I continue to fight lyme related arthritis first hand. Please do not follow my follyed path...

WOO, I missed something, what is DWO?

Miner
05-04-2012, 22:12
For the AT (looking like a SOBO trip now) I'm wearing a Railriders Madison River Long Sleeve Shirt that is pretreated for bugs and has mesh down the sides for venting heat. I wore a previous version of that shirt on the PCT. When its cold or the bugs are bad, roll the sleeves down (no need to button them at the wrist though). Roll the sleaves up (you can button them up if you think they'll come unrolled on their own) for hot weather.

For pants on the AT, I'm talking a pair of Columbia or Ex Officio convertable pants that have bug treatment (usually a form of permithrin) or treat your own pants. Wear them as shorts when hot. Wear them as long pants if there are alot of bugs or it gets cold. However, an alternative is Railriders Eco Mesh Pants which have mesh down the sides. I wore them on the PCT from the Mexican border until wet Washington where I changed them out for normal pants due to cold damp weather (mesh no longer necessary). I found them cool to hike in and never felt the need to change to shorts. The only reason I'm not going that route on the AT is because I'm now looking at a SOBO trip and Maine is pretty wet in June so I figure convertable pants might be better to wear as shorts when the bugs aren't too bad just to keep my pants drier.

On the PCT, I only used DEET for 2 days (to protect hands and face in Northern Yosemite) and found the premithrin treated clothing to be enough the rest of the time even when other hikers were drinking DEET to stay sane. Whatever you choose to wear, use Permithrin (either buy it pretreated or do it yourself). Don't forget to treat your hat and perhaps your socks if wearing shorts. I know someone who treats his tyvek ground cloth with premithrin since he sleeps with a tarp to keep off crawling insects..

DaveSail
05-04-2012, 23:06
However you protect youself , it is most certainly worth the effort ! Even though I check carefully , and shower after being out in the yard , I got bit by one someplace
I couldn't see . Have had " Chronic " Lyme [ For the rest of your life , ] for 2 1/2 years now . Back in 2010 , I developed an Ankle Ulcer . CRAZY painful ! Oxycontin
just takes the edge off ! At the 2010 " Gathering " at Athens , WV , I couldn't hike , as the boots pressed so hard on my ankle . [ Miss Janet kindly gave me a pair of
soft socks , but inside the boots , it was still too tight . ] 8 or 10 " Doctors " have tried " Their Thing " ; ( including numerous drugs , vein - removal , skin - grafts ,
Hypobaric Chamber , " Una's Boots " , Silver - Wound - Closure , etc., etc. ) Nothing , so far , has worked ! Yet , I still have to pay all the " Doctors " for their failed
attempts ! I have an appointment on Tues. , May 8th , with yet another Doctor ! This one an Air Force " Full Bird " Colonel ! I was in the A.F . I have high hopes ! DVW

Tinker
05-05-2012, 17:44
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/3/7/5/0/dscf1440_thumb.jpg[/URL ([URL]http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=25280)]

If you're wearing shorts because you will get overheated otherwise, you could invest in some insect pants. You can get them in nylon or polyester. Nylon is stronger.

As with all other gear which ticks might hitch a ride on, spray the mesh with permethrin for best results. If not tucked into socks, ticks can crawl underneath and help themselves to your more "secret" spots. :o

buff_jeff
05-05-2012, 18:46
The most important thing is being aware of the symptoms of Lyme. You can try to prevent tick bites all you want, but nothing is full-proof and counting on any one deterrent as being such is never good. Also, checks are almost futile after a long 20+ mile day when the tick is barely visible to begin with.

Know the symptoms, go to a doc immediately if you suspect lyme, and you will more than likely avoid long-term complications.

Winds
05-05-2012, 22:15
Finding ticks that are feeding on your body and removing them in a timely manner is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to prevent contracting Lyme disease.

MY Lyme Disease Strategy

Understand what Lyme disease is.
Understand the deer tick / its habitat (vegetation)
Develop tick check procedures / removal processes
Develop clothing / gear strategies
Develop use strategies for Permethrin / DEET / Picaridin
Be able to spot signs / symptoms of being infected with Lyme disease
Carry Doxycycline / other antibiotics
Develop infection plan short / long term

I have started a PAGE in my blog dedicated to this subject:
http://hikingthedream.blogspot.com/p/lyme-disease.html

Wise Old Owl
05-05-2012, 22:33
WOO, I missed something, what is DWO?

Short version of Deep Woods Off...Awesome stuff on the planet.

Winds add Rocky Mountain Fever

Winds
05-05-2012, 22:42
Short version of Deep Woods Off...Awesome stuff on the planet.

Winds add Rocky Mountain Fever

Oh terrific! Ok, looking into that now...

On first look, this might be hard to differentiate from Lyme disease while out hiking with initial symptoms other than topical rashes. However in BOTH cases the recommended antibiotic for immediate use is Doxycycline.

ANOTHER reason I will make sure I have this prescription on me.

Odd Man Out
05-05-2012, 23:17
I have started a PAGE in my blog dedicated to this subject:
http://hikingthedream.blogspot.com/p/lyme-disease.html

Winds, lots of great stuff there. One other question. Does your protocol for tick removal include saving and testing the ticks?

Wise Old Owl
05-05-2012, 23:20
ouch. No..............

Winds
05-05-2012, 23:27
OMO,

I've thought about that.
At this time, I think that may be overkill on a thru-hike.
(NOTE: My opinion - particularly related to me.)

I'm not sure if I'll be removing 2 a week or 2 in a six month period.
Visual OR physical symptoms are very rarely within 5-7 days of contracting.

With attention to the above strategy, I am planning on understanding the physical symptoms EARLY enough for antibiotics to help before it's far too serious of a problem.

I have lots to figure out though at this point. My plans will change in time I'm sure.

WIAPilot
05-05-2012, 23:35
Deep Woods Off contains 25% DEET.
Sawyer's Jungle Juice contains 98% DEET. It may kill me, but at least the insects won't.

I have long hair and it is going to be difficult to deal with ticks. As stupid as they look, I'll be using an insect shield net and hat during the worst areas.

Winds
05-05-2012, 23:40
Deep Woods Off contains 25% DEET.
Sawyer's Jungle Juice contains 98% DEET. It may kill me, but at least the insects won't.

I have long hair and it is going to be difficult to deal with ticks. As stupid as they look, I'll be using an insect shield net and hat during the worst areas.

We can shave your head Miss, we have the tools. :)

WIAPilot
05-05-2012, 23:47
LOL Oh God, don't even say that! I can see me now: Infested with ticks and getting a crew cut!

Rocket Jones
05-06-2012, 09:17
OMO,

I've thought about that.
At this time, I think that may be overkill on a thru-hike.
(NOTE: My opinion - particularly related to me.)

I'm not sure if I'll be removing 2 a week or 2 in a six month period.
Visual OR physical symptoms are very rarely within 5-7 days of contracting.

With attention to the above strategy, I am planning on understanding the physical symptoms EARLY enough for antibiotics to help before it's far too serious of a problem.

I have lots to figure out though at this point. My plans will change in time I'm sure.

In Shenandoah National Park two weeks ago between 5 of us we removed some 15 ticks - all unattached - in 3 days. The 2 dogs had over 50 between them! Most of those were caught before attaching.

We hiked along the AT, using it to complete loop hikes with the blue blazed side trails.

None of the people with permethrin treated clothes had any ticks. In fact, we 'tested' the treatment by placing a tick on a treated wool sock to see what would happen. He died. Not as quickly as I'd thought he might, but the tick was in obvious distress almost immediately.

One other benefit - I had several wasps buzzing around me at one point. They'd come in to land, then veer off at the last moment. Never had a single one touch me, and after a bit I just ignored them. One less thing to worry about!

Busker
05-06-2012, 14:01
Hi,
I got a tick right on the back of my neck and it was there for a few days before I realised it wasnt a spot (so very large). Anyhow, puled it off and its taken nearly a year to get it all back to normal as it left a large chunk of it in situ. However, in all that time I had no side effects and am perfectly healthy.
Also had a bad infestation of the really small ones when I was walking through forests in France maybe 10 years ago - once again no real problem.
So what I am saying is dont get to worried by it all but my all means take sensible precautions.

Enjoy - Patch

bigcranky
05-06-2012, 14:58
LOL Oh God, don't even say that! I can see me now: Infested with ticks and getting a crew cut!

Nah, get the crew cut before you start hiking. I've met several female thrus with very short hair, always though it looked great.

garlic08
05-06-2012, 14:59
I wore treated long trousers and a long sleeved ventilated shirt on my AT hike. I did not carry shorts, long underwear, rain pants, or any other shirts. Nor did I carry any sunscreen or insect repellent. I never got a single tick, few mosquito or black fly bites, no sunburn, no poison ivy. My single layer of clothing was all I needed for a comfortable UL hike. I sweated it out on a few 100 degree days, but no big deal there. Look at people who work in fields all day--they're wearing long trousers, long sleeves, and wide-brimmed hats. Shorts feel nice sometimes, but I doubt you get much extra cooling from legs exposed to sun.

Odd Man Out
05-06-2012, 17:50
I wore treated long trousers and a long sleeved ventilated shirt on my AT hike. I did not carry shorts, long underwear, rain pants, or any other shirts. Nor did I carry any sunscreen or insect repellent. I never got a single tick, few mosquito or black fly bites, no sunburn, no poison ivy. My single layer of clothing was all I needed for a comfortable UL hike. I sweated it out on a few 100 degree days, but no big deal there. Look at people who work in fields all day--they're wearing long trousers, long sleeves, and wide-brimmed hats. Shorts feel nice sometimes, but I doubt you get much extra cooling from legs exposed to sun.

Thanks Garlic (I think there must be a story behind that name). If your pants and shirt were your one and only base-layer, what did you layer over that for warmth on cold days? Also, it is counter intuitive but covering up is very common in desert countries where it routinely is well over 100 degrees. Perhaps that only works in dry climates, but thousands of years of tradition speaks volumes. Maybe I should wear my Telpek. I am one of the few who one one of these traditional hats from one of those very hot desert countries (Turkmenistan). Mine looks exactly like the linked photo from a Japanese museum.

http://turkmen.traveler.uz/component/content/article/46-turkmen-treasures%20/234-Turkmen-hat.

http://www.k5.dion.ne.jp/~museum/headdress/headdress_picture/papakhi.JPG

Snowleopard
05-06-2012, 18:00
wind, Nice blog.
There are problems with antibiotics. Lyme is sometimes hard to diagnose and some cases will be have few symptoms till you've had it a long time. The antibiotics can have side effects. So, when you clearly have Lyme by the symptoms, take the antibiotics. If the symptoms are not clear, it's not an easy call.
Tick checks are important but hard to do when hiking solo. Also, deer tick nymphs are most infective, but are easy to miss because they are so small and you don't feel the bite.
Factoid from recent news reports: Deer tick nymphs are very sensitive to low humidity. Washing clothes won't kill tick nymphs but putting them in the dryer will. This is good news for those who carry an electric clothes dryers on their thru hikes :) Well, it is useful to know after a day hike.
Spraying deet? I have asthma, so I'm prejudiced, but I'd say don't use aerosol spray containers of DEET, especially on children. It's not a good idea to breathe that much of this chemical. Put it on your hands and rub over your skin.

Deep Woods Off contains 25% DEET.
Sawyer's Jungle Juice contains 98% DEET. It may kill me, but at least the insects won't.

I have long hair and it is going to be difficult to deal with ticks. As stupid as they look, I'll be using an insect shield net and hat during the worst areas.
25-35% DEET has been tested to work as well as 100%. The best stuff is a time release DEET formulation, 3M Ultrathon is one brand name; the US military uses this.

For your hair, perhaps a cape hat (with embedded permethrin) like this, or a homemade version with really light material: http://www.rei.com/product/708136/exofficio-insect-shield-cape-hat I have one and it works well on mosquitoes and black flies. Usually ticks are not coming at you from above, but it can happen. The only thing I don't like about it is that it is a bit warm, especially buttoned up.

I have some railrider's pants with embedded permethrin and mesh along the sides. The mesh doesn't do much for me on hot days. For ticks I'd rather have very thin pants with no mesh. Perhaps the thinnest poly or silk long johns treated with permethrin would work -- mosquitos might bite through real thin material but crawling ticks will DIE (I hope).

Winds
05-06-2012, 18:49
Snowleopard, thanks, it's a work-in-progress. I haven't investigated the time released DEET yet.
You are correct on near 40% DEET effectiveness, but the studies I've seen are NOT in highly strenuous activities (such as profusely sweating on a long hike).
I will look into this more for sure.

And I ONCE pet a snow leopard. I was in my early 20's and thank God for lightening quick reflexes as I very nearly lost my hand (seriously!). :)

Blissful
05-06-2012, 19:02
wind, Nice blog.
There are problems with antibiotics. Lyme is sometimes hard to diagnose and some cases will be have few symptoms till you've had it a long time. The antibiotics can have side effects. So, when you clearly have Lyme by the symptoms, take the antibiotics.

Actually the thinking now is that if you find a deer tick on you that is engorged, you can take a one time, loading dose of Doxycycline, 200 mg immediately. On an empty stomach it can make you quite nauseous, but better that then Lyme. Don't wait for symptoms to "develop". If you remove one go to the dr and get the antibiotic. I've done it several times to safeguard myself. The antibiotic is the same one they treat acne with. Very few side effects with minimal doseages.

Winds
05-07-2012, 00:20
Great information Blissful, thank you.
I am adding below and more to my research.

From: American Lyme Disease Foundation
http://www.aldf.com/raad.shtml

A single preventative dose of doxycycline 200 mg. can be used within 72 hours after tick removal for patients age ≥ 8 if the attached tick is identified as an adult or nymphal Ixodes scapularis tick estimated to have been attached for at least 36 hours (on the basis of degree of engorgement with blood or certainty about the time of exposure (http://www.aldf.com/news.shtml#SpirochetePoster)) and if the local rate of Borrelia burgdorferi infection among ticks is at least 20 percent. If any one of these criteria is not met, then observation is recommended instead. The efficacy of this single preventative dose of doxycycline is unknown for human granulocytic anaplasmosis (HGA) (http://www.aldf.com/Anaplasmosis.shtml) and babesiosis (http://www.aldf.com/Babesiosis.shtml).

Information Regarding Single Dosage
http://www.manchesternh.gov/website/portals/2/departments/health/Prophylaxis%20following%20tick%20bites.pdf

CDC Lyme Disease Home
http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/

garlic08
05-07-2012, 09:11
Thanks Garlic (I think there must be a story behind that name). If your pants and shirt were your one and only base-layer, what did you layer over that for warmth on cold days?

I also carried a Marmot Driclime jacket (11 oz) and a silnylon anorak (3 oz) during tick season. In the southern Appalachians, I also carried silnylon rain pants (3 oz), a polypro jersey (8 oz), and a down vest (12 oz), all sent home in mid-May. This worked well for some days with temps in the teens with blowing snow (Smokies and Mt Rogers). My excellent Marmot Helium 15F bag was a major part of my warmth strategy--I could always bail out into that if the clothing failed (or use the down vest if the bag failed, the main reason I carried the vest).

Snowleopard
05-07-2012, 13:19
blissful and wind, thanks for the info on single dosage doxycycline on finding an engorged deer tick. I'll speak to my primary care doctor about it -- he practiced in Lyme, CT before moving here.

Winds
05-07-2012, 13:27
Yeah, I'm going to stock up on Doxycycline to have for the home kit.
I'll maintain 14-28 days worth just to have on-hand.
It's easy to get, and cheap.

And no, I don't pop pills the moment I get a runny nose. Then again, I haven't had a runny nose in over 5 years now.

Not sure if most know, but reasonably stored, the shelf live on medications is at MINIMUM 10-15 years (even longer in most cases!).

Snowleopard
05-07-2012, 16:18
And I ONCE pet a snow leopard. I was in my early 20's and thank God for lightening quick reflexes as I very nearly lost my hand (seriously!). :)
If I've recently eaten my fill, you'll be safe. Offering a snicker's bar would increase your safety. --Snowleopard :)

Odd Man Out
05-07-2012, 16:37
I also carried a Marmot Driclime jacket (11 oz) and a silnylon anorak (3 oz) during tick season. In the southern Appalachians, I also carried silnylon rain pants (3 oz), a polypro jersey (8 oz), and a down vest (12 oz), all sent home in mid-May. This worked well for some days with temps in the teens with blowing snow (Smokies and Mt Rogers). My excellent Marmot Helium 15F bag was a major part of my warmth strategy--I could always bail out into that if the clothing failed (or use the down vest if the bag failed, the main reason I carried the vest).

Point well taken about the poison ivy protection too. After my last trip to North Manitou Island, I have to go to the Dr when my poison ivy reaction went nuclear. Did you consider convertible pants?

Your packing list is very similar to what I was thinking (North Face Venture Jacket, wind shirt, fleece (an old one I have in the closet), wind pants, down vest). I was thinking water resistant wind pants would be adequate over rain pants. Wasn't sure if having both a wind shirt and rain jacket is redundant, but was thinking the latter is more versatile, but doesn't replace the former . Might keep the fleece and/or vest all summer - I need a pillow. Hat and gloves too. If I don't wear my Telpek, I have this awesome hat. Can you tell I like hats?

http://www.barmahhatsusa.com/index.php?mod=ter_d&tr_id=124

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 16:39
Yeah, I'm going to stock up on Doxycycline to have for the home kit.
I'll maintain 14-28 days worth just to have on-hand.
It's easy to get, and cheap.



I do NOT have a degree to advise the following:

If I even suspect Lyme, and I mean just a hint, I am taking a course of Doxy. IMO, the risk of Doxy is tiny compared to the risk of missing Lyme.
Not sure if most know, but reasonably stored, the shelf live on medications is at MINIMUM 10-15 years (even longer in most cases!).

Please do not take Doxy past it's expiration date. It is one med that can be dangerous once expired and can seriously damage your kidneys. I do have a degree to say this.........:D

Winds
05-07-2012, 18:03
Chinmusic, THAT IS FALSE - there is absolutely NO PILL medication that "becomes" dangerous after its expiration date.

Chemical properties of pill medications don't morph into something else.

A pill MAY loose it's effectiveness with age. However, CURRENT research (mass studies in time as well) show this to be LESS than 5% at 10-15 years and only for a very small number of medications. In MOST cases, medication didn't lose ANY of its effectiveness even up to 15 years.

Studies have even gone on to show that storage has little to do with most medications (such as storing them in a humid bathroom).

[Good general rule though: Keep medications away from heat, moisture, oxygen and light sources.]

Anyone can look this up themselves, studies are easy to find. I won't write a research paper here concerning.

How expiration dates became standard - the US government forced the pharmaceutical companies to answer whether or not their stock pile of drugs for the military was any good or not (in the early 1980's!). So now we have evolved into darn near every medicine on earth expires 1 year after you pick it up at the pharmacy. Lovely. Sure is nice for the drug companies if you threw out your expensive meds only to need them again 2-3 years down the road. Just go buy more!

Oh, don't expect to quiz your pharmacist about this. Beyond toeing the corporate line, most that I've spoken with simply don't know.

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 18:17
Chinmusic, THAT IS FALSE - there is absolutely NO PILL medication that "becomes" dangerous after its expiration date.

Chemical properties of pill medications don't morph into something else.



Winds - What you are posting can kill someone. Your value to this website is a negative one if this is regular for your postings.

Doxy, and tetracyclines in general, most certainly changes chemical composition to a form that damages the kidney.

I suggest you educate yourself before endangering others.

Winds
05-07-2012, 19:31
The CDC and FDA have relabeling standards in place following testing of medications of stockpiles for the US military saving the US taxpayer MILLIONS in restocking fees to replace perfectly FINE medications.

IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE to show that Doxycycline, tetracyclines or ANY other antibiotic in pill format goes BAD (or can somehow hurt your liver 18 months from now MORE than it can now) - by all means, list them here. I have read many studies and there is NO current mediations that poses a health risk in pill form after the expiration date EITHER by the active ingredients NOR by its inactive ingredients as well.

--- Excerpt from a Wall Street Journal article ---

The program dates to a U.S. effort begun in 1981 to increase military readiness by buying large quantities of drugs and medical devices for the armed forces. Four years later, more than $1 billion of supplies had been stockpiled. The General Accounting Office audited Air Force troop hospitals in Europe and found many supplies at or near expiration. It warned that by the 1990s, more than $100 million would have to be spent yearly on replacements.

The Air Force Surgeon General's office asked the FDA if it could possibly extend the shelf life of these drugs. The FDA had the equipment for stability testing. And because it had approved the drugs' sale in the first place, it also had manufacturers' data on the testing protocols. Testing for the Air Force began in late 1985. In the first year, 58 medicines from 137 different manufacturing lots were shipped to the FDA from overseas storage, among them penicillin, lidocaine and Lactated Ringers, an intravenous solution for dehydration. After testing, the FDA extended more than 80% of the expired lots, by an average of 33 months.

In 1992, according to the FDA, more than half of the expired drugs that had been retested in 1985 were still fine. Even now, at least one still is. Such results came as a revelation for Army Col. George Crawford when he took over military oversight of the program in 1997. He is a pharmacist, but "nobody tells you in pharmacy school that shelf life is about marketing, turnover and profits," he says.

Winds
05-07-2012, 19:55
A study conducted by the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) requested by the military occurred due to the fact that the military faces tossing out and replacing a large expensive pile of drugs every few years. The study found that 90% of more than 100 different prescription and non-prescription drugs were still safe and effective to use even 15 years after the date of expiration.

Winds
05-07-2012, 20:02
Ah, I found your tetracycline argument and it came from one of the inactive ingredients...
It was fully argued and there was NEVER a concise agreement - YET they pulled that ingredient I believe in 1979.

Most drugs retain their potency for years after they supposedly expire. What’s more, everybody knows this, or ought to; the Wall Street Journal once ran a front-page exposé on the subject.


But you don’t see anyone pushing for expiration date reform. Why not? No doubt because of the same combination of greed and excessive caution that drives up all healthcare costs: (1) The drug companies potentially could forego billions of dollars in lost sales; (2) the amount individual consumers could save is relatively trifling; and (3) there’s a remote but nonzero chance somebody relying on defunct drugs could die.


This last belief is based partly on a 1963 study claiming expired tetracycline had caused kidney damage. But that contention has been questioned, and in any case the problematic formulation of tetracycline is no longer made.

Wise Old Owl
05-07-2012, 20:05
OK Winds - I DGAD ... post a reliable source for me to read.... Nothing personal - in fact - its kind of well OBVIOUS.

Winds
05-07-2012, 20:09
Most of the previous 3 posts is NOT my words, look them up. You'll find the associated studies too.

I wish I could list my address and ask people to MAIL me all their expired prescriptions, but that would be illegal. :(
I could save myself a TON of money down the road.
:)

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 20:21
IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE to show that Doxycycline, tetracyclines or ANY other antibiotic in pill format goes BAD (or can somehow hurt your liver 18 months from now MORE than it can now) - by all means, list them here.

I really don't think you care. I will post this for others:

http://www.drugs.com/tetracycline.html http://www.emedicinehealth.com/drug-tetracycline/article_em.htm



Throw away any unused tetracycline when it expires or when it is no longer needed. Do not take this medicine after the expiration date on the label has passed. Expired tetracycline can cause a dangerous syndrome resulting in damage to the kidneys.

Even a source that considers expiration dates to be BS makes an exception for tetracylines: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3040/will-using-expired-drugs-kill-you


Word has been gradually filtering out. In the January 2012 Consumer Reports, the magazine’s chief medical adviser, Marvin Lipman, writes, “Except for tetracycline” — and as we’ve seen, even that’s dubious — “expired drugs generally don’t appear to cause harm. But they do become less potent. In particular, throw out any drug more than a year past its expiration date [my emphasis].”

http://www.ismp.org/consumers/throwAwayMedsSafely.asp


As time passes, medicines may lose their effectiveness, especially if they are stored in a medicine cabinet in a warm, moist bathroom. In rare cases, outdated medicines could become toxic. For example, taking expired tetracycline (an antibiotic) can cause serious kidney problems.

http://www.healthcare.com/medications/tetracycline-13934.php


Throw away any unused tetracycline when it expires or when it is no longer needed. Do not take any tetracycline after the expiration date printed on the label. Using expiredtetracycline can cause damage to your kidneys.

But, I am SURE you are smarter than all these sites, that you are smarter than my instructors. After all, you know better and they are all conspiring against you............:rolleyes:

Winds
05-07-2012, 20:31
Most of the above isn't accurate at all, such as storage issues.

Here's the tough part for most ChinMisic: Find a study that shows WHAT specifically is damaging from a medication that can sit on a pharmaceutical shelf for God only knows how long (and then pharmacy shelf) to be dated when you come pick it up - THEN becomes bad after 12 months from the time you purchase it.

THEN, tell US how this relates AT ALL to Doxycycline? Or how your argument relates to ANY of the 10,000 other PILL medications?

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 20:38
Most of the above isn't accurate at all....

Told y'all

This guy is REAL smart..........:rolleyes:

Snowleopard
05-07-2012, 20:40
It is likely true that most medications are stable and are fine after the expiration date. But this cannot be true of all. Oxidation and other chemical reactions will occur over time. It seems likely that out of all the chemicals that are used medically, some of the degradation products will be toxic.

The following paper's abstract states that doxycycline tablets degrade thermally at 25C in 5.26 years.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17988452

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 20:44
It is likely true that most medications are stable and are fine after the expiration date.

I cannot argue against that. I CAN argue specifically against Doxy and that has been my ONLY point in all this.

Winds
05-07-2012, 20:54
Just about done here…

"Second, medical authorities uniformly say it is safe to take drugs past their expiration date -- no matter how "expired" the drugs purportedly are. Except for possibly the rarest of exceptions, you won't get hurt and you certainly won't get killed. A contested example of a rare exception is a case of renal tubular damage purportedly caused by expired tetracycline (reported by G. W. Frimpter and colleagues in JAMA, 1963;184:111). This outcome (disputed by other scientists) was supposedly caused by a chemical transformation of an ingredient."

Here’s the 1979 research which addresses
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1807475/pdf/bullnyacadmed00127-0087.pdf

Specifics for tetracyclines in the summary:

"Old" and degraded tetracyclines have previously been demonstrated to
have direct toxic effects on the renal proximal tubule, but because of
changes in manufacturing techniques this is no longer a real problem.

Winds
05-07-2012, 21:00
I cannot argue against that. I CAN argue specifically against Doxy and that has been my ONLY point in all this.

Oh, you didn't add:
“Doxy, and tetracyclines in general, most certainly changes chemical composition to a form that damages the kidney.” ??? Yes you did, read up.

Let me restate this VERY clearly here:

There isn’t ANY known pill form medication whether it be prescription or “over the counter” medication known to cause illness because the said medication is past its expiration date.

Chinmusic - Got ANY study which shows you can become ILL specifically FROM expired pill medication?

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 21:20
Chinmusic - Got ANY study which shows you can become ILL specifically FROM expired pill medication?

This is from Merck, not that you have heard of them. They are good enough for me.

So it come down to winds vs Merck folks. Place your bets..........

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/infectious_diseases/bacteria_and_antibacterial_drugs/tetracyclines.html


Expired tetracycline pills can degenerate and, if ingested, cause Fanconi syndrome. Patients should be instructed to discard the drugs when they expire.


Winds, yes, you ARE done.

Winds
05-07-2012, 21:49
You threw up insults, and continue. You're entirely weak.

I did see this:

It is possible to acquire this disease later in life. Causes include ingesting expired tetracyclines, and as a side effect of [[teii nofovir]] in cases of preexisting renal impairment.

However, this is a condition which needs a pre-existing condition to even be considered an issue.
DRUG companies will make bland statements when it protects a very limited few, but also helps their bottom line.

So do I consider a drug company to give me the bottom line regarding truth? NO. No one should.

That's why I look to independently funded studies for leverage towards meaningful answers.

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 21:55
You threw up insults, and continue. You're entirely weak.


I "threw up" reputable source after reputable source stating the SAME thing.

THAT is not good enough for you. You deserve to be insulted.

The ONLY reason I have taken the time to discredit you is because you were passing along information that could hurt people.

Winds
05-07-2012, 22:03
Your 1968 education is lacking. Really tough guys type tough to people they aren’t in front of.

So, IF you have a preexisting renal impairment, you might not want to take tetracyclines after they’ve expired.

How’s that?

IF you don’t have a preexisting renal impairment, you can keep and take all important / expensive medications for at least 15 years as it’s MOST LIKELY just as potent / effective as the day you had someone put an expiration date on it.

ChinMusic
05-07-2012, 22:11
Your 1968 education is lacking. Really tough guys type tough to people they aren’t in front of.



1979-1983 and I would 100% say ANYTHING I have posted here to your face........100%

Again, I have quoted multiple reputable sources including Merck.

That is not enough for you.

rocketsocks
05-07-2012, 22:33
I was told by a doctor to not take antibiotics that were persricbed the year before,because he said they can cause lung complications.I really don't remember the name of the med and really don't want to guess.But for an extended period i had to take these,and when i showed improvment was told to stop.next year same type infection(chest) and a i said" i still have some" and not to fill the perscrition,to which I was damn near given a lecture.Good thing i didn't take these,and now I go by expiration dates.

Fiddleback
05-08-2012, 13:30
http://cdn.svcs.c2.uclick.com/c2/f19aace07538012f2fdd00163e41dd5b (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#mutable_781855)

garlic08
05-08-2012, 16:00
...Did you consider convertible pants?

I've tried them. I find the leg zippers uncomfortable and I don't like fiddling with the conversion. I have this fear of losing one or both trouser legs (happened to a buddy). I don't like to carry or use sunscreen or repellent, so I just prefer the long trousers.

Winds
05-08-2012, 22:31
It is likely true that most medications are stable and are fine after the expiration date. But this cannot be true of all. Oxidation and other chemical reactions will occur over time. It seems likely that out of all the chemicals that are used medically, some of the degradation products will be toxic.

The following paper's abstract states that doxycycline tablets degrade thermally at 25C in 5.26 years.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17988452


SL, thanks, this is helpful information.

Interesting that it shows over 5 years for degradation.
Part of my point here is I would wonder how potent is would be at say 8 years, or beyond.
For instance if degrades at 2% per year, that's slow enough for me to keep it for many years.
(Especially stocking it for emergency use.)

I'll have more to add about Doxycycline soon. :)

ChinMusic
05-08-2012, 22:41
I'll have more to add about Doxycycline soon. :)

I just can't wait for your sourcing.............

Wise Old Owl
05-08-2012, 23:07
Chin why bother.... there's always the Ignore button.... its easy...

ChinMusic
05-08-2012, 23:33
Chin why bother.... there's always the Ignore button.... its easy...

Nah, the guy has some smarts, just maybe not as much as he thinks. I'm sure he will come up with some "expert" that disagrees with my multiple sources. I've gotten my point across. The readers now know not to mess with expired Doxy, or, if they chose, are now at least more informed. I just wasn't going to let "expired Doxy is fine" go unchallenged. This is MY field and I felt I owed it to our members.

Maybe a computer question will come up, something he is more suited for.

Winds
05-09-2012, 00:22
If I have a forte, it's research.
That crosses many disciplines.

What is your field Chin?

Do you realize that you gave THIS reference?? (and you tried to point out what they made fun of - which leads me to believe you don't wish to read to understand.) You clearly didn't read this and it was barely 2 screens long.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3040/will-using-expired-drugs-kill-you

Which Stated:

But you don’t see anyone pushing for expiration date reform. Why not? No doubt because of the same combination of greed and excessive caution that drives up all healthcare costs: (1) The drug companies potentially could forego billions of dollars in lost sales; (2) the amount individual consumers could save is relatively trifling; and (3) there’s a remote but nonzero chance somebody relying on defunct drugs could die.

This last belief is based partly on a 1963 study claiming expired tetracycline had caused kidney damage. But that contention has been questioned, and in any case the problematic formulation of tetracycline is no longer made.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have written Bristol-Myers Squibb, PAR Pharmaceuticals and others to get a clarification on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxycycline
Expired tetracyclines or tetracyclines allowed to stand at a pH less than 2 are reported to be nephrotoxic due to the formation of a degradation product, anhydro-4-epitetracycline causing Fanconi syndrome. In the case of doxycycline, the absence of a hydroxyl group in C-6 prevents the formation of the nephrotoxic compound. Nevertheless, tetracyclines and doxycycline itself have to be taken with precaution in patients with kidney injury, as they can worsen azotemia due to catabolic effects.

Which clearly states Doxycycline does NOT have the compounds necessary to allow the medication to degrade into anything dangerous after it's expiration date.

While you're foolishly insulting me, and scaring folks with your great knowledge - I will get to the bottom of this.

Interesting you had NO come back with Snowleopard's found research stating that Doxycycline is NORMAL for at least 5 years.
Nothing to say about that eh?

You keep mentioning "smart guy" insults?? Only you have a complex here.

I am trying to understand what the truth is. I'll figure out Doxycycline first as it pertains to hikers. But now I am curious about Tetracycline (the drug, not the antibiotic group) as well.

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 00:45
Do you realize that you gave THIS reference?? (and you tried to point out what they made fun of - which leads me to believe you don't wish to read to understand.) You clearly didn't read this and it was barely 2 screens long.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3040/will-using-expired-drugs-kill-you

Which Stated:

But you don’t see anyone pushing for expiration date reform. Why not? No doubt because of the same combination of greed and excessive caution that drives up all healthcare costs: (1) The drug companies potentially could forego billions of dollars in lost sales; (2) the amount individual consumers could save is relatively trifling; and (3) there’s a remote but nonzero chance somebody relying on defunct drugs could die.

This last belief is based partly on a 1963 study claiming expired tetracycline had caused kidney damage. But that contention has been questioned, and in any case the problematic formulation of tetracycline is no longer made.


Uhhhh, yes I did. I intentionally brought in sites that promote expired meds and even THEY have concerns over Doxy.




I am trying to understand what the truth is.


I hope this is true, but right now I do not believe it. I think you are a stubborn man that will find a fig-leaf of a source to "prove" your point.

Again, I have sourced multiple reputable sites. That is not good enough for you, I GET IT.

Winds
05-09-2012, 00:58
I didn't say what I did about expired medications out of the blue.
So no, I don't trust drug sites to give me / anyone the straight story on the bottom line.

Did you read where the US government currently has the CDC and FDA to simply re-label their meds with limited testing and just push the expiration date out further?? They claim to have saved over a billion dollars doing this. If the medication is still good, why not?!

However, it's NOT good for you or I to keep Vit D, penicillin, or Flintstones Chewables past ONE(1) year?? Just go buy more right!?

SO MANY can't afford health insurance and have a great difficulty paying for ever expanding medicine costs.
Even I would have saved thousands over the decades if I knew then what they aren't telling us now.

So NO, it's NOT good enough for me until I understand what the truth is.
IF I can keep my Doxycycline for more than 5 years and trust it, that is a great thing!

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 01:21
Did you read where the US government currently has the CDC and FDA to simply re-label their meds with limited testing and just push the expiration date out further?? They claim to have saved over a billion dollars doing this. If the medication is still good, why not?!

I have no problem with retesting. The issue is a tetracycline. This has been known to have degradation issues for over a generation. MAJOR sources simply do not put faith in those that claim Doxy beyond its date is safe. YOU think that is because they are greedy corporations out to screw the suckers. I believe they have the public safety at heart.


SO MANY can't afford health insurance and have a great difficulty paying for ever expanding medicine costs.
Even I would have saved thousands over the decades if I knew then what they aren't telling us now.

My issue in this thread are the tetracyclines and specifically Doxy, as it is related to this thread. I have made no complaints about other meds.


So NO, it's NOT good enough for me until I understand what the truth is.
IF I can keep my Doxycycline for more than 5 years and trust it, that is a great thing!

You are over-reading the "5-year" information. No where in that piece, no where in ANY study, is there a number on how much of degraded Tetra causes kidney issues. You will NEVER have a double-blind study on this.........NEVER. Not even in Haiti.

I understand that it is not good enough..........FOR YOU.

PLEASE, live YOUR life as you wish, just don't come on here as some expert telling others something that goes against current knowledge.

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 01:55
YOU have a problem that I don't accept your regurgitating information which looks to be incorrect and fostering scare tactics.


I have no problem whatsoever with you not accepting the sources I have presented. That is YOUR problem.

I DO have a problem of you making "statements of fact" that contradict the reputable sources.

Do you really not understand the difference?

I have made no statements in this thead that are not backed up with reputable sourcing. A high school baseball coach could have posted the same information.