Worried about personal safety

[Finn&Fionna]

Recently I have been falling upon these articles and posts about people who were mugged, killed, or assaulted on the trail. Even a few people who steal your gear while you sleep. I know this is few and far between, but it has me a bit worried. I am still definitely going on my AT thru in 2013, but I do have serious concerns about my safety and moreso the safety of my wife. The fact that the name "pink blazers" even exists tells me there are more than a handful of guys with less than great intentions towards female hikers. If, say, there were 100 guys like this on the trail (especially in the beginning) I would think 1 or 2 of them (if not more) have their mind in a place that doesn't bode well for women in the woods. Hopefully seeing 6'4 215lb me walking beside my wife will deter them, but that's not a guarantee. I know there's a minuscule chance I'll be in a situation where I need to defend my wife or myself from some creeps, but its enough that I'm considering options.

Is bringing some form of personal defense equipment (I won't list them here) completely out of the question? I don't really want to be the guy who brings a fist to a knife fight should it come to that.

or are my fears totally ridiculous?

[fenderbenderfc]

Don't worry about it. You will have trekking poles. I've never been stabbed by one but I can assume it hurts.

[Finn&Fionna]

Indeed. I'll be using some ski poles, but same principle applies. I'll have a standard pocket knife as well as base equipment and a can of bear spray (to make my wife happy) and that should be enough IMO. but more research and more stories are making me think twice. obviously I would have all applicable permits and licenses, and follow each jurisdictions individual laws, should I decide to conceal carry. My biggest concern should I go that route is making other hikers uneasy, so I would need to conceal it well, and hopefully no one would ever know I have it. If someone does know, they earned it.

I actually don't like the idea of concealed carry at all, as its too easy to pass the safety class, and I've known a few people who aren't in the right mindset to have it. Thankfully I have had significant training in necessary use of force, so I'll have a few other options before it comes to that. again, should I decide to go that route.

does anyone know people who do carry, and have filed all the applicable paperwork?

[fenderbenderfc]

I have a lifetime permit to carry. I have not even considered a gun in my pack. If you don't feel safe carrying a can of bear spray then you aren't going to feel safe. Pepper spray means business. Hundreds of people thru hike yearly without issue. Don't believe the hype. I personally think the spray is overkill. Where would you have a gun concealed to where you could easily draw on someone should you need to, while wearing hiking clothes?

[Winds]

There's two of you, and with your size more than highly unlikely that you'd need a firearm. Is it possible? Sure, but so is you getting hit by lightening or being swept away in a flash flood.

I would be very surprised if you or anyone can find a legal way to conceal carry a handgun through ALL of the A.T.
In many states, weapon laws vary by county and/or towns. Certainly you'll have issues in state and federal lands. Then there's hunting times, certain public places, etc.

Yeah, I'd like to hear from you, or anyone who has carried a weapon the entire length of the A.T. legally.
This is NOT a "for or against" issue at all. I'm curious now.

I wonder if it would be easier to take a 20" barreled shotgun? Ha.

[fenderbenderfc]

As Winds said, it would be very hard to legally carry a handgun the length of the trail. Normally I am in the mindset it is better to not need a gun and have it than to need a gun and not have it. However, if I have to carry an extra pound for 2184 miles and keep it somewhere that could make it effective I am going to pass. Being that you are hiking with your wife makes her less of a target. I have yet to hear a crime against two or more people. Being solo makes you more of a target, but even being by yourself you are going to be okay. You can more than likely carry a gun the whole trail and never get caught breaking state or local laws. The question is are you worried enough to try and do it? For me, hiking SoBo solo this year, no I won't carry one. The choice is yours. Just remember bad news is sensationalized. When you most need a gun is when you must defend yourself against a gun. I have not heard about any recent gun crimes on the trail. I personally am choosing to focus my energy on my own physical shape, resupplies, gear, and the miles. If you do carry the whole trail do yourself a favor and make sure you are a lifetime NRA member. The NRA loves to help defend 2nd amendment cases.

[peakbagger]

Step back a minute and consider the source of the news and commentary. Not many are going to click on a "I went on a hike and nothing happened link" very often but they will click on a "I went on a hike and something unusual happened link". The probability of a injury or criminal act is minimal to an average thruhiker, the likelyhood of a injury due to slipping, sliding or overuse is much higher. I would worry far more about getting hit at a road crossing by a speeding car.

Feel free to bring self defense weapons, but realize the most likely outcome is that they will leave the trail with you and your gear after a few days when you quite the trail or they will get sent home at Mountain crossings or left in a hiker box. If you do insist on "carrying" and do make it up north, realize that its very difficult to bring a handgun into Mass and if you try, its usually mandatory jail time (I am not up with recent law changes)

[Monkeywrench]

Seriously?

You live your daily life in a large city filled with all kinds of lunatics, but you're worried that your wife won't be safe walking in the woods?

I see you're in Honolulu. A quick look shows that in 2010 there were 19 murders, 218 forcible rapes, 891 robberies, 1,420 aggravated assaults, and 5,760 burglaries there. Yet I'll bet Honolulu is a rather nice place to be, and neither you nor your wife are afraid to be out and about in town. The trail is like that, only more so. There is crime there, but it is extremely rare.

As for pink blazers, the term refers to guys who long for some female company and will hike long miles to catch up to a female hiker that is ahead of them, but it does not mean they harbor evil intentions.

I've a feeling it's really a bit of fear of the unknown that is getting to you more so than anything rational. Once you are actually on the trail and become used to the environs and life-style, you'll likely realize these fears are unfounded. If you are thru-hiking, after a rather short while you know most of the people hiking around you, and it is a lot like life in a small village where everybody knows everybody, and there's really not much to fear.

[fiddlehead]

I certainly wouldn't let my fears stand in the way of my dreams, but, if you are really worried, just keep the bear spray handy, keep everything inside your tent at night and don't leave your packs unattended.
You'll have more problems with cold and wet and dogs than bears or people.

[Cherokee Bill]

Simple: "Prepare for the worst, Pray for the Best"! Enough said!

[Finn&Fionna]

monkeywrench, technically I live in honolulu, but I'm actually on an air force base. My official (as the government sees it) home is in PA, where I will be returning at the end of my enlistment. When I go down town I do have a fear of getting mugged or getting in a bad situation. if I go with my wife, we go to small establishments, and ALWAYS have a group of some large friends or "locals" with me. there's areas I avoid to mitigate the risk even further. Granted, no matter how much planning things can sneak up on you, but I've always been the cautious type. I don't like getting caught off gaurd, and it won't deter me from doing what I want to do (I still go down town after all), but I do try to plan for every circumstance.

Yes, I know i have more to worry about the wet and the cold, and the slip and falls, but how do you best prepare for that? For the wet and cold, bring rain gear and a good sleeping bag. Don't wanna slip and fall, have poles and good shoes, and just in case a good med kit and a cell phone for emergencies. I prepare for all those things, so why not prepare for the (albeit highly improbable) eventuality I end up in a bad situation with a bad person?

also as for pink blazers, HYOH. if they prefer female company, have at it. as long as they're welcome by whatever company they choose to follow, that's all well and good. But compare it to honolulu again. There's THOUSANDS of people at the bars or clubs every night. some want to have a few drinks with friends, many want to try and go home with someones. That's fine as long as its reciprocal. But we all know there are the few shady characters out there. The few who don't know they're not wanted. or worse the few who know they're not wanted and do it anyway. I don't want to find the 1 guy on the whole trail who thinks he can get away with stuff like that. That goes not just for my wife, but if I see it happen to any other woman on the trail I will have something to say about it. AGAIN 99.999% of the time this won't happen. but like a few above have said, prepare for the worst, hope for the best. or have it and not need it. I don't want to be the guy who needs it but doesn't have it.

That's a lot of typing to defend a cause I'm going against. bear spray will work fine.

[MuddyWaters]

The trail is a microcosm of society.
If it makes you feel secure, bring whatever you want. Just realize that having it in a pack makes it useless most of the time
You cannot totally eliminate risk. Not at home, and not on the trail.
Statistically, the most dangerous thing we do is drive a car everyday, but it doesnt bother us because we are accustomed to it.
Your fears are a bit overblown. Especially regarding your wife.
Relax

[Capt Nat]

The idea that a gun will make you safe is just a folly. An attack will come all of a sudden, unexpected, with no warning. You wont even have time to get free of the straps on your hiking poles. If the attacker doesn't take the gun, it will be found on your body.

As a law enforcement officer with full retirement, I can carry conceiled nationally. I wouldn't even consider lugging a gun and ammo on the trail. As another poster said, Leki's and bear spray are overkill. I feel safer in an environment where everyone is armed, I'm just not going to deal with the weight. With your size and age, you should be the most fearsome thing on the trail. Martial arts training would be much more beneficial!

[rocketsocks]

Many times stories are told where a victim must have known there attacker based on certain forensic evidence.By this I mean to say you can meet someone,(say at a diner)and have a wonderful conversation,and even share a cup of coffee,only to find later your in a situation,one where later you'll tell your friends,but they seemed so nice,how could this happen.Crooks,weirdos,and the like don't always announce there intentions by throwing off a bad vibe,being careful where you go,and what you say is just a part of your personal safety.Learning what to do when your in a fix is paramount.Maybe take a self defense class,it could save your life.Learn to fight with what is on your persons,a pair of sunglasses,a bandana,tent stake,pack stave.....or a heater if you like.

[soulrebel]

Like what are they trying to get from you...Money, food, gear? If you're willing to risk your freedom in this country for petty theft - you're probably in a desperate situation and I'm just gonna give you my stuff or money. Prolly give you my jacket too, it gets cold out there. I don't want to hurt somebody that's already hurtin'.

On the other hand if physical assault is on the perps mind. You'll soon find me using anything and everything to open up orifices on your body. and a lil work on your soft spots... I've swung a stick often in my life and I'm pretty sure I can hit the mark. Usually I sleep with a nice wood clubber, if I think bears are in the area, or you're a nut. My wife keeps her knife handy it's 3 inch flip blade and I think that's overkill. There's a lot of nice rocks too. A slingshot might not be bad...but I find most are intimidated by the 1000yard stare from hiking all day, a good beard, and a fit body...and lest i forgot the stench you're drowning in.

[bigcranky]

Oh, good Lord, really? You're worried about some dude hitting on your wife while you're on the trail together? Or what, shooting you then attacking her? The AT isn't some dystopian video game, it's a social hiking trail where you'll meet very nice people from all walks of life. As in any group, some of the young men are interested in some of the young women, but there is hardly an epidemic of sexual assault, or any other kind, on the trail.

Now I'm a little concerned about you being out there with a firearm, randomly blasting away at hikers coming into the shelter late at night. Dude, that guy climbing over your wife is just trying to get to the top bunk. Put the gun away.

Your fears are totally ridiculous.

[rocketsocks]

I gonna double dip and just say,you need to find some piece in all this because at the end of the days your gonna lay down and go to sleep,you'll go to sleep,or you'll have to leave the trail,plain and simple.You can only do so much,or be proactive to only a degree,because any more than that,well whats the point,just go home.

[rickb]

Here is book that the ATC deemed worthy of sale on their website you might be interested in. I posted a link to a free PDF of it on Whiteblaze once. The book is thought provoking and goes way beyond the typical advise offered up.

https://www.atctrailstore.org/catalog/iteminfo.cfm?itemid=231&compid=1

An alternative to bear spray might be a smaller OC canister. Some are slightly larger than a lipstick. If you go that route you would want the OC concentration used by police. Talk to a gun nut in a gun store or police supply store and they will help you out. Obviously a small size has advantages and disadvantages. Some states regulate the OC concentration level that can be sold to the public. In my sate of Massachusetts possession of unregistered spray is illegal. Spraying the wrong person's golden retriever is definitely not recommended here.

Common online wisdom (and certainly the official position of the ATC) is the number of hikers murdered on the trail is small considering the millions of people who hike the AT each year. That said, more thru hikers have died in the middle of their thru hikesl at the hands of a stranger than have die in the middle of their thru hikes by falls, lightening, bears, snakes, bees, drowning, hypothermia, and heatstroke combined.

You may take note that of the 5 THRU HIKERS killed on the AT 4 were part of a male/female couples. Both those killings happened years ago at shelters and occurred outside of the traditional northbound wave.

On a more optimistic note, the trail removes you from a host of other dangers at home (drunk drivers, etc). If your hike leads to a heathy lifestyle long-term (this is not a given, there are a lot of obese former thu hikers, not sure why so many) you have the opportunity to add years to your lives.

Just my take. Different from most, I am sure.

[rocketsocks]

Ok,I have not a clue,what is OC canister?

[Spokes]

Nothing in life is guaranteed. Listen to the same "inner voice" you use everyday to survive in the real world- common sense.

Now get on with planning your fantastic thru hike......

[max patch]

online wisdom

i'm adding that to my list of oxymorons.

[Hooch]

Ok,I have not a clue,what is OC canister?Oleoresin capsicum. The active ingredient in pepper spray.

OP, take something for your nerves and go hike. You'll be fine.

[rickb]

Link to online version of "Trail Safe"

http://www.gorp.com/hiking-guide/travel-ta-hiking-outdoor-skills-camping-sidwcmdev_056742.

OC Spray = Pepper Spray. OC is the active ingredient

[Odd Man Out]

Recently I have been falling upon these articles and posts about people who were mugged, killed, or assaulted on the trail....

You seemed to have missed the hundreds of thousands of posts about people who were not mugged, killed, or assaulted. The ATC estimates that 2 to 3 million people use the trail every year. Of these, 2 to 3 million are not crime victims. To put it in perspective, in the US for every 2.5 million people, about 300 will die each year in car accidents. Are you afraid to drive?

[Moose2001]

or are my fears totally ridiculous?

Fear is a powerful motivator. None of us can mitigate or get rid of your fear. Only you can do that. You talked about how to deal with cold or slipping and falling. You seem to have dealt with those fears and put them aside. Those possibilities are much higher than being assaulted on the trail. Yet you seem to be focused on the very small possibility you might have a confrontation with someone. Personally if I was 26, 6'4" and 215 lbs, it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You also seem to be concerned about "pink blazers". That concept should not be new to you either. Having served in the Air Force, I'm sure you've seen, and worked with, young women serving in the military. How do young guys act around them? They are away from home, alone and lonely. Sure they seek out female companionship. Not a thing wrong with that. It's not like every male hiker is stalking a female hiker looking to do her harm.

It's sad that you are allowing your fears to color what should be an adventure of a lifetime. I would suggest you make an effort to seek out and read the many journals of female hikers. Let them tell you just how justified your fear is. I think you'll find you are way over the top on this.

And yes.....if it was my wife, I'd send her to the trail BY HERSELF and not be concerned at all.

[rocketsocks]

Link to online version of "Trail Safe"

http://www.gorp.com/hiking-guide/travel-ta-hiking-outdoor-skills-camping-sidwcmdev_056742.

OC Spray = Pepper Spray. OC is the active ingredient
Thanks rick......

[rocketsocks]

Oleoresin capsicum. The active ingredient in pepper spray.

OP, take something for your nerves and go hike. You'll be fine.
Thanks Hooch.........

[Sassafras Lass]

I don't believe the OP's fears are completely unreasonable. If the AT is a little slice of regular society, then at some point you're bound to come across someone unstable.

Last year on our NOBO thru attempt, we met a crazy Vietnam veteran ('Teardrop', anyone?) who we later discovered had assaulted other hikers and threatened to eat a hiker's dog. AND 2 months after coming home, we discovered that poor Mr. Scott Lilly, who lived 15 MINUTES AWAY FROM US, was found dead and partially buried off the AT (death finally ruled a homicide) and that this Teardrop was wanted for questioning, amongst other hikers.

I'm not saying this 'Teardrop' definitively did it. I'm saying that he's a 'character' that you do have a chance of running into in the wilderness, and you need to have an idea of what you'll do in situations you thought you'd never encounter.

The likelihood that someone will experience a hardship on the AT beyond thirst, losing a possession or getting blisters is VERY slim. It is very unlikely that you will find yourself with a truly aggressive, deranged person who intends to hurt you in a colorful way.

But just once would be enough.

And putting your head in the sand is inaction. The mantra 'Be prepared' should apply to all aspects of life, and as much as it's satisfying to 'seek fellowship in the wildernress,' not everyone wants to be your friend, and you should have a plan should something arise. I'm not a 'Shoot first and ask questions later' kind of gal, but I know better than to be ignorant and everyone has a God-given right to defend their life.

A little common sense will go a long way, and pay attention to your instincts, and you'll be fine. If you're really worried, show the missus pressure points and have her take a self-defense course.

[Finn&Fionna]

that escalated quickly. I feel like most of you read in to the first post and not the ones to follow.

I'll try to be more clear. I understand the chance of meeting unsavory types is just about 0. I get that. I do. the fear is not something that will prevent me from hiking, just as (as mentioned) the statistics for driving don't keep me from driving. Its also not so high that I wouldn't allow my wife to hike on her own. Perhaps fear is the wrong word here. I know these things will almost definitely not happen. BUT should they, I was curious what constitutes reasonable preparation. I always cover all my bases, no matter how unlikely something is to occur. Every time I plan anything I think of every possible negative outcome, even the ridiculous, then I plan for it. It keeps me sane, and prevents me from stressing about things that would otherwise drive me insane. I also plan to bring a snake bite kit, even though I know I know how to spot them, where they hide, which ones are venomous, how to act around them etc etc. I'm researching things like average weather conditions in the last 20 years, to get a better understanding. I do this with everything. and questions/concerns about people are often the hardest to figure out because thru hiking the AT is a unique situation, so I ask the people on here about it and take the advice. I'm not going to carry a gun, I know how to defend myself, I'm not super protective of my wife, but I know the potential exists for bad things to happen which could otherwise impede the success of an amazing trip, so I don't think I'm wrong to inquire about those things in order to reduce the likelihood of those things happening. in the end, I have to bring bear spray anyway, since my wife is afraid of nature. even deer. so if it comes to it, I have a form of defense that I wont break a hand or equipment using.

[HikerMom58]

I don't believe the OP's fears are completely unreasonable. If the AT is a little slice of regular society, then at some point you're bound to come across someone unstable.

Last year on our NOBO thru attempt, we met a crazy Vietnam veteran ('Teardrop', anyone?) who we later discovered had assaulted other hikers and threatened to eat a hiker's dog. AND 2 months after coming home, we discovered that poor Mr. Scott Lilly, who lived 15 MINUTES AWAY FROM US, was found dead and partially buried off the AT (death finally ruled a homicide) and that this Teardrop was wanted for questioning, amongst other hikers.

I'm not saying this 'Teardrop' definitively did it. I'm saying that he's a 'character' that you do have a chance of running into in the wilderness, and you need to have an idea of what you'll do in situations you thought you'd never encounter.

The likelihood that someone will experience a hardship on the AT beyond thirst, losing a possession or getting blisters is VERY slim. It is very unlikely that you will find yourself with a truly aggressive, deranged person who intends to hurt you in a colorful way.

But just once would be enough.

And putting your head in the sand is inaction. The mantra 'Be prepared' should apply to all aspects of life, and as much as it's satisfying to 'seek fellowship in the wildernress,' not everyone wants to be your friend, and you should have a plan should something arise. I'm not a 'Shoot first and ask questions later' kind of gal, but I know better than to be ignorant and everyone has a God-given right to defend their life.

A little common sense will go a long way, and pay attention to your instincts, and you'll be fine. If you're really worried, show the missus pressure points and have her take a self-defense course.

GREAT ADVICE!! I met a mentally ill "hiker," on the AT, in 2010 on McAfee Knob. He was not in touch with reality at all. I posted a thread about him on Trailjournals. A ridge runner had met him earlier as well. (same guy from my description) He wasn't threatening, at the time, but who knows when they can become a danger to themselves or others. Mr. Scott Lilly, is most likely PROOF, that we all have pay attention to our instints when out on the trail. Sometimes, I really don't like the comments of others on WB.... just sayin.

[Del Q]

To me, personal injury is 1000x more likely and a more relevant concern, I sleep pretty hard, a bear would probably be 1/2 through eating one of my legs before I woke up................agree with hiking poles, they could be quite a weapon against people or nasty dogs, from growing up in Philly and what I have read, and experienced, standing tall, eye contact, confidence is key in an encounter.

American Arms, does have really small .22 handguns, with the right ammo this would be ideal, forgetting the legal risks.....if I were that concerned I would carry one of these in my hip belt pocket.

[oldbear]

Finn
What if you miss ?
What if the rounds that you fired -in -the - dark and in -the -heat -of -the -moment - miss their intended target and instead strike an unsuspecting fellow hiker ?
What if nobody knows that person was hit until the next day or possibly days after -which would be true of somebody that was sleeping in a well concealed hammock
Finn
You're gonna be walking in an environment where cellphones usually don't work and where when minutes count help can often be hours and hours away.
My suggestion as a guy that was born and raised in NYC is to leave your weapon at home and instead to improve your situational awareness to keep yourself out of harms way

[Del Q]

Sorry, North American Arms

[johnnybgood]

Improve your odds of encountering unstable people by not staying in shelters.

[Mikey Appleseed]

If your in the military your hands should be deadly weapons, but out there "the war is over" Dont make victims of predators. Plastic Gloc could be a solution, but your self esteem may be an issue. Will you hurt a flirt? Keep witnesses alive or you will become the ill one, just saying. Peace.

[johnnybgood]

Improve your odds of encountering unstable people by not staying in shelters.
Lol ! EDIT , Staying in shelters improves the odds of meeting crazy people.... now what was I thinking .

[Odd Man Out]

...I understand the chance of meeting unsavory types is just about 0. I get that....I know these things will almost definitely not happen. BUT should they, I was curious what constitutes reasonable preparation. I always cover all my bases, no matter how unlikely something is to occur. Every time I plan anything I think of every possible negative outcome, even the ridiculous, then I plan for it. It keeps me sane, and prevents me from stressing about things that would otherwise drive me insane...


Actually the chances of MEETING unsavory people is probably not that low. The chances of becoming a victim of a crime carried out by one of the "unsavories" is much lower. Also, I think that everyone agrees that being prepared is a good idea. You will find lots of advice on what you can and should do to prepare in terms of modifying your behavior to minimize your risks (avoid shelters, be aware of your surroundings, trust you instincts, hang out with people you can trust, etc...). This is what I would define as "reasonable preparation". Where things get murky is whey you ask the question: Is it worth the trouble to carry an extra piece of gear (weapon, pepper spray, snake bit kit) only for the purpose of protection?

You admit that the crime risk is "just about 0" (and BTW, the bear, deer, and snake risk are probably much lower). Yet you feel the need to plan for any potential problem "now matter how unlikely" as way of preserving your sanity. I suggest that your bear spray and snake kit are not protecting you from bears and snakes, but they are protecting you from yourself. If you're OK with that, then bring them.

[Mikey Appleseed]

To alot of people the size of a human means nothing, to me its a larger target, easier to strike with accuracy. Being alone makes you(not you per say) a higher risk, because most attackers are cowards. If you read "the cactus eaters" you can see that his insecurity with himself made him think men were trying to take his women, fear can drive a person mad, just be prepared to handle things, and realize that sometimes no prep can get you ready for every scenario. If you whip out a gun, it better be to use it, or legally it can be taken away from you and used in a legal self defence manner to the real trouble makers. O.K. im done. Whatever you do, dont arm bears, there scary enough!

[WingedMonkey]

The Appalachian Trail is a dangerous place. You will probably get raped or stabbed or robbed before you get even half way. Don't even think about going on the trail.
And if a murderer doesn't get you then a snake will kill you or a bear will eat your arm off. Or one of the hundreds of cougars will jump on you from a tree.
You are much better off just loading your loved ones and all your dogs in the car and driving around to hiker bashes and sitting around the fire and talking about hiking.

[Samson]

The Appalachian Trail is a dangerous place. You will probably get raped or stabbed or robbed before you get even half way. Don't even think about going on the trail.
And if a murderer doesn't get you then a snake will kill you or a bear will eat your arm off. Or one of the hundreds of cougars will jump on you from a tree.
You are much better off just loading your loved ones and all your dogs in the car and driving around to hiker bashes and sitting around the fire and talking about hiking.

What scares the hell out of me and keeps me locked in the basement is the thought of what if the murders/rapists are riding bears and throwing snakes. Good God..... I am never going outside again

[rocketsocks]

What scares the hell out of me and keeps me locked in the basement is the thought of what if the murders/rapists are riding bears and throwing snakes. Good God..... I am never going outside again
I think that happend at rock ridge,they pulled a #6

[johnnybgood]

I think that happend at rock ridge,they pulled a #6 ...and had the #2 scared right out of them.

[Kinnickinic]

Indeed. I'll be using some ski poles, but same principle applies. I'll have a standard pocket knife as well as base equipment and a can of bear spray (to make my wife happy) and that should be enough IMO. but more research and more stories are making me think twice. obviously I would have all applicable permits and licenses, and follow each jurisdictions individual laws, should I decide to conceal carry. My biggest concern should I go that route is making other hikers uneasy, so I would need to conceal it well, and hopefully no one would ever know I have it. If someone does know, they earned it.

I actually don't like the idea of concealed carry at all, as its too easy to pass the safety class, and I've known a few people who aren't in the right mindset to have it. Thankfully I have had significant training in necessary use of force, so I'll have a few other options before it comes to that. again, should I decide to go that route.

does anyone know people who do carry, and have filed all the applicable paperwork?

You have the best protection with you at your side, your wife.-Kinnickinic

[rocketsocks]

...and had the #2 scared right out of them.:d..................

[dale1627]

What's funny to me is that I'm planning a solo hike for three days next week. Everyone has told me "You know that is extremely dangerous. You need to carry your pistol for protection." Not one person questioned my intelligence when I drove cross country for the first time at 19 years old to report to 29 Palms, CA. I slept in rest areas and a gas station parking lot. Now I'm supposedly raving mad to be 40 years old and hiking solo for three days.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[bigcranky]

Now I'm supposedly raving mad to be 40 years old and hiking solo for three days.

Yeah, that's funny. But as is often the case, people are more afraid of the things they don't know anything about (the woods) and less so about things they do all the time (driving), even though the odds of injury or death are far higher for driving.

[rickb]

You seemed to have missed the hundreds of thousands of posts about people who were not mugged, killed, or assaulted. The ATC estimates that 2 to 3 million people use the trail every year. Of these, 2 to 3 million are not crime victims. To put it in perspective, in the US for every 2.5 million people, about 300 will die each year in car accidents. Are you afraid to drive?

Point is valid.

On the other hand 5 THRU HIKERS have been murdered on the AT in the middle of their THRU HIKES.

One long-distance SECTION HIKER was killed in the middle of his AT journey, just this past year.

I think that is significant, too.

As for you statistics on automobile deaths, I want to thank you. Its a good reminder to wear a seat belt-- not because I fear driving, but because I need to remember there are ways to minimize the attendant risk.

[rickb]

I also plan to bring a snake bite kit,

It used to be you's see Cutter snakebite kits in every sporting good store. I think there is good reason you don't anymore.

I would strongly suggest you research what is recommended in the case of snakebite before you purchanse some kind of kit. What is remarkable is how these recommendations have changed over the years. You might be surprised by the current protocols.

[Sassafras Lass]

It used to be you's see Cutter snakebite kits in every sporting good store. I think there is good reason you don't anymore.

I would strongly suggest you research what is recommended in the case of snakebite before you purchanse some kind of kit. What is remarkable is how these recommendations have changed over the years. You might be surprised by the current protocols.

Absolutely. I think everyone should watch this quick video from Dave Canterbury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S2WphEt06M), addressing snakes in the US and what to do in the event of a bite.

[Pedaling Fool]

...To put it in perspective, in the US for every 2.5 million people, about 300 will die each year in car accidents. Are you afraid to drive?
What makes this worse is that if you look at the number of people not just killed in vehicles, but also those that sustain life-changing injuries, i.e. very serious, such as crippling, amputations and severe brain damage... the number is much higher, but no one talks about it. Not only that but the bulk of them are called accidents, but they are very preventable, so in my mind that's not an accident...but I've said enough...this is one of them touchy subjects for me...

Suffice it to say, just go hike, you'll be fine as long as you don't kill yourself during the transportation phase;)

[WingedMonkey]

Suffice it to say, just go hike, you'll be fine as long as you don't kill yourself

If ever an opportunity to misquote another member came up, I had to steal that one.

Has anyone summed up the number of deaths on the trail from self decided?

[Pedaling Fool]

If ever an opportunity to misquote another member came up, I had to steal that one.

Has anyone summed up the number of deaths on the trail from self decided?Not the AT, but there is a mountain area where people go to die :)


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/1373287/Japan-struggles-with-soaring-death-toll-in-Suicide-Forest.html


Japan struggles with soaring death toll in Suicide Forest




HUNDREDS of police and volunteer firemen ventured into the Aokigahara forest in Japan last week, forming a human chain to look for the bodies of suicide victims.

They discovered four more to add to the 44 already found this year in what is now regarded as Japan's suicide centre - a dark, 3,500-hectare forest that covers the lower slopes of Mount Fuji. So many people kill themselves there that local authorities are now running out of space to store their remains.

A spokesman for Narusawa and Ashiwada, two of the three villages that border the forest, said: "I think everyone has the same reason for choosing this area. It's because of the novel by Seicho Matsumoto, Kuroi Jukai (Sea of Trees). After that was published 23 years ago the number of suicides around here increased." The novel tells the story of a woman who has a love affair with a young public prosecutor. He is blackmailed by the woman's husband, and the only escape for the lovers is a double suicide inside the dark and mysterious Aokigahara forest.

While the number of suicides may have increased because of Matsumoto's novel, the forest's roots as a venue for suicides go back even further. A Sixties novel, The Pagoda of Waves, featured a woman who killed herself in the Aokigahara forest; the story was later turned into a television drama series. Annual suicide patrols were set up in 1971 and last year found a record 74 bodies. Many people believe that the forest's proximity to the mountain - the most spiritual of all locations for the Japanese - and its vast and lonely interior, make it an ideal place for suicide.

The forest is described in the best-selling Complete Manual of Suicide as "the perfect place to die". Last year the manual sold more than 1.2 million copies. Nationwide, suicide rates are soaring in Japan with 33,048 people killing themselves in 1999, the second year running in which the number rose above 30,000. A record number of bankruptcies and rising unemployment are blamed as the main causes. Men whose lives are defined by their work tend to be most vulnerable.



The increase in suicide rates has put pressure on the three villages that border the forest and which have legal jurisdiction over the people who die there. According to Japanese law, they are responsible for disposing of unidentified bodies and that is taking a heavy toll on their finances.

The spokesman for Narusawa and Ashiwada villages says: "It costs 40,000 yen [£250] for the cremation, 25,000 yen [£160] for a funeral hearse and 20,000 yen [£128] for the urn and its storage. So the total cost is between 70,000 and 90,000 yen [£450-£570]. The prefecture is supposed to pay us back, but first it comes out of our budget." Last year so many bodies were found that the Yamanashi prefecture had to introduce a supplementary budget of 5 million yen (£32,000) to pay for their disposal.

The other problem is a lack of space. The remains of 119 bodies are kept in one 20-year-old building in Kamikuishiki village, while another built in 1992 in Ashiwada, is already full with 52 unclaimed remains. In Narusawa 60 remains are now crammed into an overcrowded charnel house and a new one is being built to contain the overflow.

In an effort to reduce the number of suicides the police maintain patrols around the forest, trying to spot potential victims before they enter. Men who are unable to shake off the habit of a lifetime and wear suits as they hike along Aokigahara's paths are nearly always picked up if they are spotted.

Attempts are made to dissuade others who venture inside through signs along the forest trails. "Your life is a precious gift from your parents," reads one. "Think calmly once again about them, your siblings and your children. Don't agonise over problems yourself - please seek counselling."

[oldbear]

Finn
From where I'm sitting I think that if your wife dressed in full hiking gear is so incredibly hot that you have to worry about somebody sexualy assaulting her 60/60 /24/7/185 then the best thing that you can do to insure her safety ( and you enjoying your thru hike ) is to leave her home w/ your 2 Rottweilers

[Winds]

THREAD SUMMARY
In case you didn’t wish to read this whole thread;
Below is a summary of what we have learned so far:

1. When hiking, strap on a gun as you may need it.
2. You should not let your fears run your life.
3. Pray for the best.
4. Pink blazers don’t necessarily carry pink paint.
5. The trail is a microcosm.
6. A retired policeman might think he can legally carry a gun the whole A.T. but he is sadly mistaken.
7. Victims sometimes know their attacker.
8. If you bring your wife, understand that in shelters dudes will climb over your wife regularly.
9. It is unlikely that you will have a slip-and-fall accident in your bathroom at home if you are on the trail.
10. Rocketsocks has no idea what OC gas is, and probably should never own it.
11. Listen to your inner voice and enjoy your hike.
12. Hundreds and thousands of posts here in WhiteBlaze are about people who haven’t been murdered.
13. Probably should be carrying a weapon while driving too because that is a very dangerous activity.
14. You may slip and fall on the trail.
15. Fear is a powerful motivator.
16. Deranged people may not hurt you in a colorful way.
17. Some wives are afraid of nature.
18. Mentally ill hikers are not in touch with reality.
19. Growing up in Philly makes you more confident.
20. When shooting a hiker, don’t miss and kill another hiker accidently – this is bad.
21. Keep witnesses to a crime alive.
22. To preserve your sanity, plan for anything that might go wrong.
25. A rapist might be riding a bear and throwing snakes!
24. Research snake bites as the protocol for treating has changed!
25. Don't kill yourself in a Japanese forest.


You’re welcome, now have a wonderful hike!

[Blissful]

I blogged on Hiker Safety (http://www.blissfulhiking.blogspot.com/2011/08/hiking-and-safety.html)

Also the backpack issue (http://www.blissfulhiking.blogspot.com/2012/05/crimes-on-trail-part-2-safeguarding.html) (my most recent one).

[WIAPilot]

LOL Winds. You're hilarious. OK - After watching film, I'm pitching the Extractor and bringing an EpiPen instead. I actually run into rattle snakes all the time out here so that fear is conquered.

[One Half]

I have a lifetime permit to carry. I have not even considered a gun in my pack. If you don't feel safe carrying a can of bear spray then you aren't going to feel safe. Pepper spray means business. Hundreds of people thru hike yearly without issue. Don't believe the hype. I personally think the spray is overkill. Where would you have a gun concealed to where you could easily draw on someone should you need to, while wearing hiking clothes?


What is a lifetime permit to carry? Who issued it? Is it good in every state?

[rickb]

What is a lifetime permit to carry? Who issued it? Is it good in every state?

Google up the Law Enforcement Officers' Safety Act.

[Papa D]

Don't pack your fears - - your best weapon is the guns in your calves that propel you down the trail much faster than any sketchy dudes that hang out around roads and shelters (likely near roads).

[Papa D]

Law Enforcement Safety Act is apparently federal law however there are two types of state laws that are not overridden by the federal law, these being "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government) property, installation, building, base, or park. This should serve to make carrying firearms still unlawful on parts of the AT - - if you carry a firearm on the AT (as a backpacker) you are either:

a)silly and stupid enough to add the weight

b)have unreasonable fears

c) you are ex-military or cop with a screw loose
pick one

I would say that less than 1/10th of 1% of successful thru-hikers carry items for the purpose of using them as a weapon - - it's just un-necessary.

If you WORK in law enforcement and have law enforcement BUSINESS on the trail, then obviously, you are exempt from my comments.

[Papa D]

15857

this is the sort of gun you should pack - - fires a body down the trail at about 3 miles per hour

[Finn&Fionna]

1) My wife is pretty attractive, but not so insanely hot that anyone who sees her will go in to a rape frenzy. Also I am not so overprotective that every guy talking to her makes me angry. But every guy can tell when another guy is trying to pull something.

2) I'm not carrying specific self defense items, but some of the items I have CAN be used as self defense. i.e. I now plan on bringing a combination sleeping back dryer/RPG launcher.

3) I will now be carrying a gun while driving.

[Papa D]

We all live in close quarters sometimes on the trail - - 99 out of 100 hikers are respectful of each other but guys do talk to girls whether they are someone's wife or not - - my wife would be offended if I offered to "take care of her" if some guy was hitting on her - I would expect her to handle the situation just fine - - usually when this happens, she and I both get a laugh out of it even though she is a lot younger and cuter than I am - - modern independent women don't need a guy standing next to her with a weapon of any sort. This is a fun thread but we have two of three of these each season - - you folks are way over-thinking this stuff.

[kayak karl]

been reading this since last night. pretty funny. i didn't know i was suppose to be WORRIED about my personal safety :-? or bear, boars, snakes, homeless, mice, leeches, beggars and candlestick makers, but TICKS :eek: don't get me started. those little buggers scare me. they are sneaky. crawl under your clothes at nite. oh, that reminds me. you may want to get help dealing with your covetous feeling towards your girlfriend. you may find her posting here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?73-Hooking-Up).

[camperjames64]

I got the message that there's really no more danger than in town.no drug dealers,druggies.and the kookooness that goes with modern day city life.thanks,was a concern.now not so much.

[Spokes]

Perhaps now's a good time to ask if anyone knows how long cheese stays fresh on the trail?

Sorry, just tryin to break the insane cycle of paranoia here....... :)

[Odd Man Out]

Perhaps now's a good time to ask if anyone knows how long cheese stays fresh on the trail?

If we're lucky, Winds will look up the last cheese thread and summarize for us!

[rocketsocks]

Perhaps now's a good time to ask if anyone knows how long cheese stays fresh on the trail?

Sorry, just trying to break the insane cycle of paranoia here....... :)
Nasty olé' moldy cheese could be used as a deterrent on the trail.

[MuddyWaters]

1) My wife is pretty attractive, but not so insanely hot that anyone who sees her will go in to a rape frenzy. Also I am not so overprotective that every guy talking to her makes me angry. But every guy can tell when another guy is trying to pull something.

2) I'm not carrying specific self defense items, but some of the items I have CAN be used as self defense. i.e. I now plan on bringing a combination sleeping back dryer/RPG launcher.

3) I will now be carrying a gun while driving.


Rape is a crime of aggression and dominance, it has nothing to do with sexual attraction.

[rickb]

Perhaps now's a good time to ask if anyone knows how long cheese stays fresh on the trail?

Sorry, just tryin to break the insane cycle of paranoia here....... :)


Perhaps now is a good time to ask what can be learned from the murders of:

Robert Mountford and Susan Ramsey
& Geoffrey Hood and Molly LaRue

All four were well on their way to completing thru hikes they undertook between the ages of 25 and 27.

And like the thru hiker killed in the 70s and the long distance section hiker killed last year, all four never got to add their names to this list of 11,000 hiker who completed their thru hikes seeing only love along the trail.

[Feral Bill]

Rape is a crime of aggression and dominance, it has nothing to do with sexual attraction. In short, extreme bullying.

[stranger]

Recently I have been falling upon these articles and posts about people who were mugged, killed, or assaulted on the trail. Even a few people who steal your gear while you sleep. I know this is few and far between, but it has me a bit worried. I am still definitely going on my AT thru in 2013, but I do have serious concerns about my safety and moreso the safety of my wife. The fact that the name "pink blazers" even exists tells me there are more than a handful of guys with less than great intentions towards female hikers. If, say, there were 100 guys like this on the trail (especially in the beginning) I would think 1 or 2 of them (if not more) have their mind in a place that doesn't bode well for women in the woods. Hopefully seeing 6'4 215lb me walking beside my wife will deter them, but that's not a guarantee. I know there's a minuscule chance I'll be in a situation where I need to defend my wife or myself from some creeps, but its enough that I'm considering options.

Is bringing some form of personal defense equipment (I won't list them here) completely out of the question? I don't really want to be the guy who brings a fist to a knife fight should it come to that.

or are my fears totally ridiculous?

I do think that you are paying a few too many rumors, far too much attention. Yes, there have been some rapes and murders along the Appalachian Trail, there have been rapes and murders EVERYWHERE. I personally feel that the AT is more safe than society...by far. The term 'pink blazing' simply refers to two hikers having sex along the trail, consentual sex, between adults. The term, while inappropriate, does not refer to any form of harassment and or aggressive behaviour towards women. If anything, hikers along the trail are very protective of women hikers, especially solo ones...someone would have a fairly substantial problem on the AT if they started harassing a female hiker in my opinion.

The serious crimes on the trail are well documented...you might want to compare those number to your hometown. Can you run into problems on the AT? Sure can, can you drown in your bathtub...sure can, can you did in an airplane crash...yup, and driving to work every day is far more dangerous than all these combined...but we don't think about that.

The AT is very, very safe. But things do go wrong from time to time. It's called LIFE.

You guys will be fine.

[marty1983]

No offense to our Atheist friends on whiteblaze but the A.T. is a great place to learn to "live and let God". Leave your fears at home and enjoy your time on this magical trail. You can't possibly prepare for every bad situation and trying to plan for them, could drive a man insane.

[Rain Man]

- - if you carry a firearm on the AT (as a backpacker) you are either:

a)silly and stupid enough to add the weight

b)have unreasonable fears

c) you are ex-military or cop with a screw loose


You can't possibly prepare for every bad situation and trying to plan for them, could drive a man insane.

Have to agree. Almost by definition, people who let irrational fears govern their judgment and conduct ... are not acting rationally.

Rain Man

.

[bigcranky]

I now plan on bringing a combination sleeping back dryer/RPG launcher.


This sounds awesome, where can I get one? :)

[Spokes]

Perhaps now is a good time to ask what can be learned from the murders of:
.....

Yes, the lesson is no one has a crystal ball, there's no gaurantees in life, and living is chalk full of risks. Some folks live into their 100's and others die right out of the womb. Sad.

So, I say use the same skills you do in everyday life to prevent and/or minimize a premature demise- common sense.
Don't dwell on the paranoia and act like a freak. Enjoy life while you have it......

[hikerboy57]

in any survival situation, the most valuable asset is your head, and the ability to think clearly in a stressed situation. trust your gut, and use your intelligence and youll be okay.if something doesnt seem right at a campsite, keep moving, even if it means an illegal stealth site.
fear is a good thing, it helps keep you alive.Irrational fear can kill you.
Keep in mind that there were over 1000 unreported incidents of no violence on the AT just yesterday alone, and over 22o millioin unreported incidents of nonviolence in the US.

[Slo-go'en]

People who go looking for, or expect trouble often find it. Project a cheerful, friendly attitude and you will be treated in kind.

And we all know how long cheese lasts on the trail - as long as it takes to eat it!

[lemon b]

What I worry about is falling. As in tripping on a rock during a downhill. That or an eye poke from a branch.

[chief]

1) My wife is pretty attractive, but not so insanely hot that anyone who sees her will go in to a rape frenzy. Also I am not so overprotective that every guy talking to her makes me angry. But every guy can tell when another guy is trying to pull something.On the other hand, every guy I know is trying to pull something when interacting with a pretty attractive woman, though they rarely admit it. It's biological! It's up to you to let your wife deal with it. Most deal very well. When they can't or won't, then you step in. Just make sure it's something more than your own insecurities gone wild.

[Sassafras Lass]

Rape is a crime of aggression and dominance, it has nothing to do with sexual attraction.

If that were 100% the true origin, then I'd be targeted by women and my husband would be targeted by men, too. Sex does have a little something to do with it.

[Sassafras Lass]

Yeah, that's funny. But as is often the case, people are more afraid of the things they don't know anything about (the woods) and less so about things they do all the time (driving), even though the odds of injury or death are far higher for driving.

Not picking on you bigcranky, you know I'm a fan - but this is an excellent way to put the following:

"But as is often the case, people are more afraid of the things they don't know anything about (guns) . . . ."

Our society has progressed to firearms, and they still prove to be the most effective tool when it comes to personal safety. As is evidenced by the millions of criminals who don't obey laws anyways and hurt the good folks who do follow the asinine gun laws and cannot legally protect themselves; the criminals are safe, because they can presume that the majority of Americans unfortunately do not carry a gun and are often proved right.

Can you imagine people in centuries past, even as late as the late 19th century? "No, I don't believe in swords or arrows, they're dangerous and unnecessary, you're paranoid if you think you need to carry a weapon every day." ??? That was crazy talk then and it's crazy talk now. Just because we have a safety net of commerce and media doesn't mean that the more unsavory side of mankind has gone away or even diminished.

I do find it humorous that people are discussing the scariness of a tool . . . which is all a gun is. It's essentially a more accurate slingshot, though not by much. You have to practice a ton to fine-tune your aim, and even when you can achieve a high level of accuracy, it changes from gun to gun. This Glock is better when sighted a little to the left and down, this Ruger is better just to the right, etc. You just don't point and shoot and bam! you've bagged dinner or bam! you've stopped that assailant. Guns are a tool just like knives, bows, sticks and rods, swords, and axes are tools. Yes, they can be used for harm, but so could a toothpick. The desire to carry a very effective tool with you does not mean that you're paranoid, immature, weak, or militant in nature.

Just my $0.02, and the last I'll say on the subject before Alligator bites my head off. :D Finn, looking forward to seeing you on the trail!

[Mikey Appleseed]

Hey Finn, I didnt want to assume you are insecure, maybe just protective, which is great in alot of ways. I carried a hachet for 110 miles on the PCT to protect myself from illegals, im pretty sure I creeped out alot of fellow hikers, but nobody said a dang thing!

[Finn&Fionna]

ha! that's not a bad idea. I might bring a battleaxe or crossbow with me as a gun just seems impractical now.

Sassafrass Lass, I saw in your pictures you have the double rainbow tarptent. seems about what I'm looking for. how do you think it would work for me any my wife? I just watch a video of the setup and i like that you can give it a sort of awning so its big for living space, but closes up real tight so we won't have to warm up a huge area. any thoughts? If I can find a used one I'm sold. Been scouring the internet but can't find much under $100 that doesn't weight 5lbs.

[WIAPilot]

I seriously doubt I will take a gun, but I always am amused by others who talk about accuracy with guns. My dad was a commanding officer in Special Ops so yes, I definitely AM accurate. However the majority of the time, women (or men) do not need to fire their weapon. It is simply enough to have it by your bed or sleeping bag and fire a warning shot if someone is trying to break in your door (and know where to fire it) or tell them to get the hell out of your tent and let them know you have a gun. Even really drunk guys are not going to want to deal with it. However, I think that for all intrinsic purposes that a knife should suffice.

Problems CAN happen on the trail. Sorry this is long, but it's a true story: Years ago when I was 28, I was hiking at a very popular hiking place called Sabino Canyon. I was on the Phone Line Trail, but had already hiked in about 6 miles. It was mid-week so I had not encountered anyone for miles. I did have my gun with me. I encountered a rattlesnake in the middle of the trail and went around it. About 5 min later, I encountered two men in their early 30's. They had taken the tram and were coming from the opposite end. What was so odd was that they were in black street shoes and wearing black socks and not dressed in hiking attire at all. One asked me what time it was. I had just glanced at my watch so looking straight at him, I told him the time, but threw him off because I warned him of the rattlesnake ahead, but kept walking. They then stopped and asked if I was worried about the snake. I patted my side and said I had a gun with me. They both said, "You have a gun?" I kept hiking and didn't think anything of it, but several days later on the front page, it showed their photos. The next day, these two brothers had hiked the same trail and raped and almost beaten to death a co-Ed. They were later arrested and sent to prison. I was informed by the police that my attitude and luck in throwing them off by mentioning the snake was probably what saved me.

Even though it shook me up for a little while, within a month I was hiking alone again. I rarely take my gun now on day hikes, but it CAN make a difference.

[Sassafras Lass]

Sassafrass Lass, I saw in your pictures you have the double rainbow tarptent. seems about what I'm looking for. how do you think it would work for me any my wife? I just watch a video of the setup and i like that you can give it a sort of awning so its big for living space, but closes up real tight so we won't have to warm up a huge area. any thoughts? If I can find a used one I'm sold. Been scouring the internet but can't find much under $100 that doesn't weight 5lbs.

Finn, to be honest we weren't terribly happy with the Double Rainbow. Too small to be a true 2-person, IMO, and had issues with condensation. Ended up selling it and we now have the Marmot Aura 2P. Same footprint but so much more headroom, it feels much larger. Plus I like the fact that on nice nights you can leave off the outer fly altogether and sleep under the stars. It's a little less than 5 lbs, I think, so we are dividing it and are around 2.5 lbs each for a tent that suits us so much better. And a cheery orange so if you're hunkered down in a storm at least you'll be happier about it. :)

[Sassafras Lass]

I rarely take my gun now on day hikes, but it CAN make a difference.

WIAPilot, that is truly scary and it's truly unfortunate that the other lady was prepared like you were. :(

[rickb]

5 lbs, I think, so And a cheery orange so if you're hunkered down in a storm at least you'll be happier :oabout it.



Yea, but of you don't want broadcast where you are camped go with gray. :eek:

[bigcranky]

Not picking on you bigcranky, you know I'm a fan - but this is an excellent way to put the following:

"But as is often the case, people are more afraid of the things they don't know anything about (guns) . . . ."


Actually, I wasn't talking about guns at all, just the fear of the unknown in general and the human capacity to misunderstand risk levels between known and unknown activities.

[Winds]

THREAD SUMMARY – Continued from post #54

Additional learning to this point:

26. I’m hilarious.
27. Police officers (retired or active duty) can’t legally carry a concealed weapon the entire A.T. during a thru-hike. (If you don’t wish to look this up, trust me. OR better yet, BET ME!)
28. Don’t pack your fears and your calves are better firearms.
29. Less than 0.1% of people carry items to use as a weapon.
30. Papa D has a bowling ball for a left calf muscle and probably needs surgery.
31. Fionna is not insanely hot that anyone will go into a rape frenzy.
32. Modern women don’t need guys with weapons supporting them.
33. Karl never knew he had to worry about his personal safety.
34. No one really answered the cheese spoilage question, shame.
35. Winds is too ignorant to answer the cheese spoilage question, shame.
36. Rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction.
37. Some people never got to add their names to completing the trail. :(
38. There have been rapes and murders everywhere.
39. You can drown in your bathtub.
40. You can die in an airplane crash.
41. We are to “live and let God” on the magical trail.
42. Rational people don’t let irrational fears govern their conduct.
43. Bigcranky wants an RPG launcher.
44. No one has a crystal ball, and some folks live into their 100’s.
45. Illegal stealth sites are ok if you are trusting your gut.
45. Yesterday there were over 220 million unreported incidents of non-violence in the US.
46. People who look for trouble often find it.
46. Be cheerful and you won’t find trouble.
47. Lemon b doesn’t want an eye-poke from a branch while falling.
48. Every guy is trying to pull something when interacting with a pretty attractive woman.
49. Sassafrass Lass’s husband may be targeted by men and sex has something to do with it.
50. Millions of criminals don’t obey laws.
51. Guns are tools like toothpicks.
52. Mikey Appleseed creeps out a lot of fellow hikers with a hachet.
53. Finn wants the perfect 2 person / 2lb tent for under $100.
54. Gun accuracy improves if your dad was a commanding officer in Special Ops.
54. Problems can happen on the trail.
55. The Double Rainbow might not have enough headroom.
56. A cheery orange tent is nice to sit in during storms.

You’re welcome, hike on!
:)

[atmilkman]

THREAD SUMMARY – Continued from post #54

Additional learning to this point:

26. I’m hilarious.
27. Police officers (retired or active duty) can’t legally carry a concealed weapon the entire A.T. during a thru-hike. (If you don’t wish to look this up, trust me. OR better yet, BET ME!)
28. Don’t pack your fears and your calves are better firearms.
29. Less than 0.1% of people carry items to use as a weapon.
30. Papa D has a bowling ball for a left calf muscle and probably needs surgery.
31. Fionna is not insanely hot that anyone will go into a rape frenzy.
32. Modern women don’t need guys with weapons supporting them.
33. Karl never knew he had to worry about his personal safety.
34. No one really answered the cheese spoilage question, shame.
35. Winds is too ignorant to answer the cheese spoilage question, shame.
36. Rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction.
37. Some people never got to add their names to completing the trail. :(
38. There have been rapes and murders everywhere.
39. You can drown in your bathtub.
40. You can die in an airplane crash.
41. We are to “live and let God” on the magical trail.
42. Rational people don’t let irrational fears govern their conduct.
43. Bigcranky wants an RPG launcher.
44. No one has a crystal ball, and some folks live into their 100’s.
45. Illegal stealth sites are ok if you are trusting your gut.
45. Yesterday there were over 220 million unreported incidents of non-violence in the US.
46. People who look for trouble often find it.
46. Be cheerful and you won’t find trouble.
47. Lemon b doesn’t want an eye-poke from a branch while falling.
48. Every guy is trying to pull something when interacting with a pretty attractive woman.
49. Sassafrass Lass’s husband may be targeted by men and sex has something to do with it.
50. Millions of criminals don’t obey laws.
51. Guns are tools like toothpicks.
52. Mikey Appleseed creeps out a lot of fellow hikers with a hachet.
53. Finn wants the perfect 2 person / 2lb tent for under $100.
54. Gun accuracy improves if your dad was a commanding officer in Special Ops.
54. Problems can happen on the trail.
55. The Double Rainbow might not have enough headroom.
56. A cheery orange tent is nice to sit in during storms.

You’re welcome, hike on!
:)
Could you please do this on every thread that goes over 2 pages.

[Finn&Fionna]

I'm just happy he didn't tear me up too bad. My wife won't throw people in to a rape frenzy and I'm probably too frugal. I'm good with that. Carry on

[WingedMonkey]

Telling some one you are carrying a firearm goes against all firearms training logic. Firing a warning shot is foolish. If you have a reason to fire a weapon it should be to shoot someone. Guns are not drawn as a warning.

[Mikey Appleseed]

Just to clarify, I was talking accuracy striking someone, not with a gun per say, hand, foot, hachet,........ Dont worry Wind, im only considered slightly ill myself, so I did enjoy the list. I forgot that a gal asked me if it was my hachet in the hiker box, and I had no problem admitting ownership, a proud man I am.

[rocketsocks]

It should also be pointed out that most firearm engagements happen with in 7 yards or 21 feet.Most shooters at a club or range will often practice at 30 feet with extreme accuracy,groupings of about 2"are not uncommon,and groups of 3/4"are often the case.When a shooter has to get down to business the target becomes center mass the size of a pie plate,and thats not a difficult shot.......at all.

[WIAPilot]

Telling some one you are carrying a firearm goes against all firearms training logic. Firing a warning shot is foolish. If you have a reason to fire a weapon it should be to shoot someone. Guns are not drawn as a warning.

I respectfully disagree WingedMonkey. There are many times when a woman (usually younger) has to deal with a guy who is simply drunk and trying to force his way into her apartment or home.

[WIAPilot]

LOL Wings, you are hilarious! :)

[Kool-Aid]

Dave is exactly the kind of person I try to stay clear of on the trail.....

[Winds]

Dave is exactly the kind of person I try to stay clear of on the trail.....

Who is Dave?

And folks, I wasn't ripping on anyone, my attempt at levity. :)

[rocketsocks]

Who is Dave?

And folks, I wasn't ripping on anyone, my attempt at levity. :)
I kinda dig the clif notes version with a twist,and I'm pretty sure some smart person once said "Bringing Levity to an other wise gravitas world";) ain't such a bad thing.:sunor somethin like that.

[Winds]

Alright RS, who's Dave?

I'm just sittin' here reloading a few weapons. Ha.

[rocketsocks]

Alright RS, who's Dave?

I'm just sittin' here reloading a few weapons. Ha.
I haven't a clue? on that one,guess will have to wait for it to boil over.

[Winds]

Ok thanks. I was just curious who Tang wants to stay clear of?

Alrightythen, back to sharpening my trail Bowie and machete blades.

[rocketsocks]

Ok thanks. I was just curious who Tang wants to stay clear of?

Alrightythen, back to sharpening my trail Bowie and machete blades.
Yikes.........

[stranger]

THREAD SUMMARY – Continued from post #54

Additional learning to this point:

26. I’m hilarious.
27. Police officers (retired or active duty) can’t legally carry a concealed weapon the entire A.T. during a thru-hike. (If you don’t wish to look this up, trust me. OR better yet, BET ME!)
28. Don’t pack your fears and your calves are better firearms.
29. Less than 0.1% of people carry items to use as a weapon.
30. Papa D has a bowling ball for a left calf muscle and probably needs surgery.
31. Fionna is not insanely hot that anyone will go into a rape frenzy.
32. Modern women don’t need guys with weapons supporting them.
33. Karl never knew he had to worry about his personal safety.
34. No one really answered the cheese spoilage question, shame.
35. Winds is too ignorant to answer the cheese spoilage question, shame.
36. Rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction.
37. Some people never got to add their names to completing the trail. :(
38. There have been rapes and murders everywhere.
39. You can drown in your bathtub.
40. You can die in an airplane crash.
41. We are to “live and let God” on the magical trail.
42. Rational people don’t let irrational fears govern their conduct.
43. Bigcranky wants an RPG launcher.
44. No one has a crystal ball, and some folks live into their 100’s.
45. Illegal stealth sites are ok if you are trusting your gut.
45. Yesterday there were over 220 million unreported incidents of non-violence in the US.
46. People who look for trouble often find it.
46. Be cheerful and you won’t find trouble.
47. Lemon b doesn’t want an eye-poke from a branch while falling.
48. Every guy is trying to pull something when interacting with a pretty attractive woman.
49. Sassafrass Lass’s husband may be targeted by men and sex has something to do with it.
50. Millions of criminals don’t obey laws.
51. Guns are tools like toothpicks.
52. Mikey Appleseed creeps out a lot of fellow hikers with a hachet.
53. Finn wants the perfect 2 person / 2lb tent for under $100.
54. Gun accuracy improves if your dad was a commanding officer in Special Ops.
54. Problems can happen on the trail.
55. The Double Rainbow might not have enough headroom.
56. A cheery orange tent is nice to sit in during storms.

You’re welcome, hike on!
:)

That's just awesome : )

[stranger]

Recently I have been falling upon these articles and posts about people who were mugged, killed, or assaulted on the trail. Even a few people who steal your gear while you sleep. I know this is few and far between, but it has me a bit worried. I am still definitely going on my AT thru in 2013, but I do have serious concerns about my safety and moreso the safety of my wife. The fact that the name "pink blazers" even exists tells me there are more than a handful of guys with less than great intentions towards female hikers. If, say, there were 100 guys like this on the trail (especially in the beginning) I would think 1 or 2 of them (if not more) have their mind in a place that doesn't bode well for women in the woods. Hopefully seeing 6'4 215lb me walking beside my wife will deter them, but that's not a guarantee. I know there's a minuscule chance I'll be in a situation where I need to defend my wife or myself from some creeps, but its enough that I'm considering options.

Is bringing some form of personal defense equipment (I won't list them here) completely out of the question? I don't really want to be the guy who brings a fist to a knife fight should it come to that.

or are my fears totally ridiculous?

Look, if you take a hike on the AT you're probably going to die, it's just that simple.

[rickb]

or are my fears totally ridiculous?

For every 2500 thru hikers who have reported completing their thru hike to the ATC, the police have reported one thru hiker who couldn't because they were murdered in the middle of it. Fact.

[oldbear]

Historically speaking the greatest threat to my personal safety has always been my own stupidity

[Odd Man Out]

Look, if you take a hike on the AT you're probably going to die, it's just that simple.

This is the one statement from this thread that is 100% true. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that every single person who has every hiked or ever will hike the AT, either has died, or will die at some point in the future.

[Finn&Fionna]

Can you site sources? I know at least a dozen people still living. I'm sure 1 of them has hiked it at least a little

[chip2012]

Just give them a little time.

[WingedMonkey]

For every 2500 thru hikers who have reported completing their thru hike to the ATC, the police have reported one thru hiker who couldn't because they were murdered in the middle of it. Fact.

Are you basing that statistic on all murder victims on the AT being thru-hikers?

[rickb]

No. Five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT in the middle of their thru hikes.

[jeffmeh]

For every 2500 thru hikers who have reported completing their thru hike to the ATC, the police have reported one thru hiker who couldn't because they were murdered in the middle of it. Fact.

Fear-mongering at its finest.

The ATC estimates between 2-3 million hikers on the AT per year. If we said all 5 murders occurred in one year (they did not, as the first was in 1974, almost 40 years ago), when 2 million hikers were on the AT, the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 people would be 0.25. If we said 1 murder occurred it would be 0.05 per 100,000 people. The last year for which there are statistics (2010) puts the intentional homicide rate across the US as 4.8 per 100,000. So your odds of being murdered in the US in general are almost 100 times more than they are of being murdered on the AT.

If you don't walk around every day worrying about being murdered, then with almost 100 times less risk of that on the trail why would you worry about it?

[Pedaling Fool]

I don't think rickb is fear-mongering; this is just a subject he has an interest in, always posting about it. He's not trying to scare anyone, he's just showing some math.

Also the millions of hikers that visit the AT every year, I believe, is misleading. I wonder how many of those hikers are simply walking the trail from a parking spot to a very close scenic view point during the day time and in an area that is packed full of tourists. :-?

[Mikey Appleseed]

Fear sucks, my best new hiking weapon, medication. Happy times ahead.........WHOO HOO! (we have a live one)

[jeffmeh]

I don't think rickb is fear-mongering; this is just a subject he has an interest in, always posting about it. He's not trying to scare anyone, he's just showing some math.

Also the millions of hikers that visit the AT every year, I believe, is misleading. I wonder how many of those hikers are simply walking the trail from a parking spot to a very close scenic view point during the day time and in an area that is packed full of tourists. :-?

OK, perhaps the intent is not fear-mongering, but using the number of completed thru-hikes as the denominator is certainly misleading. And if the ATC overstimates the number of hikers on the AT by an order of magnitude, the AT is still 10 times safer than the US in general, even if there were one murder on the AT per year (and there is not). There are much more likely risks to worry about than that one.

[Moose2001]

Historically speaking the greatest threat to my personal safety has always been my own stupidity

AMEN! Been there and done that!

[Sassafras Lass]

OK, perhaps the intent is not fear-mongering, but using the number of completed thru-hikes as the denominator is certainly misleading. And if the ATC overstimates the number of hikers on the AT by an order of magnitude, the AT is still 10 times safer than the US in general, even if there were one murder on the AT per year (and there is not). There are much more likely risks to worry about than that one.

And yet it is still foolish to say that being murdered while hiking is completely beyond the realm of possibility.

I bet poor Mr. Scott Lilly thought the same as everyone else - the trail is safe, just take the usual precautions, it's paranoid to think you need to protect yourself out there. And look where he is now - that small percent, even though it is indeed a small percent, swallowed him up.

Like I've said before - just once would be enough.

[rickb]

And look where he is now - that small percent, even though it is indeed a small percent, swallowed him up.

Like I've said before - just once would be enough.[/FONT]

If 5 fellow thru hikers had perished in lightening storms (none have) or had perished as the result of contaminated water (obviously none have) or had drowned crossing rivers (one or two maybe) the entire tone would be different.

We wouldn't be talking about fear and denying those deaths. Rather we would simply acknowledge there are some inherent risks to everything.

And then we would be talking about what makes reasonable sense to minimize those risks and/or deal with them.

Five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT. A long distance section hiker was killed last year. Last year a thru hiker was ambushed and beaten by a couple of locals laying in weight. This month 5 thuhikers (I think they were thuhikers, not 100% sure) were forced to their knees at gun point. This past year a man was arrested for raping a woman at traildays. Another was arrested by the secret service for threatening Obama -- but he had threatened hikers too. And what of the report of the guy goomg for a record only to be dragged out of his tent and beaten on the middle of the night! Is that on true? Who knows. And what more have I missed?

These are facts. Talking about them doesnt have to be about fear. Not any more than talking about the inherent risks about riding motorcycle has to be about fear. Accepting risk is part of life. That said, smart people know that sometimes a helmet is in order.

[weary]

Look, if you take a hike on the AT you're probably going to die, it's just that simple.
Absolutely true. 19 years after my long walk at age 64, I increasingly feel that it's true that no one gets out of this world alive.

FWIW, I did conduct an informal poll of women I got to know well on most of the many trails I have walked over the past 80 years. My question: "Have you ever felt threatened on the trail?" The answer was always "no." I suspect most of us feel a little nervous during the first few days. But quickly most of us come to realize that the trail is the safest place one could be.

[rocketsocks]

Absolutely true. 19 years after my long walk at age 64, I increasingly feel that it's true that no one gets out of this world alive.

FWIW, I did conduct an informal poll of women I got to know well on most of the many trails I have walked over the past 80 years. My question: "Have you ever felt threatened on the trail?" The answer was always "no." I suspect most of us feel a little nervous during the first few days. But quickly most of us come to realize that the trail is the safest place one could be.I agree with this,I have never felt threatened on the trail.I have at times felt like the person that was talking to me was weird,but never felt threatened.I feel pretty good knowing that recently a couple weirdos were rounded up,and therefore changes the equation a bit.

[WIAPilot]

I am in the middle of reading a 2003 journal of one of the WB members. He was hiking with a female hiking partner and they were near a drunken group of hikers at one of the hostels. When she went to use the privy in the middle of the night, she was physically assaulted by one of the drunks. Fortunately, she was able to cry out and he was subdued by the others and the Police called. These things DO happen. I think the biggest culprits are these drunken groups who yellow blaze, going from shelter to hostel to shelter. Really a shame.

[WingedMonkey]

I think the biggest culprits are these drunken groups who yellow blaze, going from shelter to hostel to shelter. Really a shame.

Don't think I have ever run any a "group" of these.

[hikerboy57]

Cntral park in NY has a reputation for being a dangerous place, and yet has the precinct with the lowest crime rate in the city.millions enjoy the beauty of central park without incidient. the same is true of the AT. yes, there is the remote possibility you can be assaulted on the trail or worse. yes, you can get hit by lightning, yes you can be attacked by a bear, yes you can be bitten by a brown recluse spider and watch your skin fall off.
You can let these things keep you from enjoying a lifetime experience?many times, once you face your fears, you find there was never anything to be afraid of. it just takes a little leap of faith.

[Pathfinder1]

Hii...


People may not always be the most prevalent threat on your hike.

Nor might snakes or bears be. But, be cautious. Small wildlife that seem "friendly", nice or cuddly...or which may appear to be acting somewhat out-of-sorts, should also be dealt with caution.


05-16-12

NY hiker treated for rabies after fox attack.

Authorities say a hiker bitten by a fox in a central New York park is being treated for rabies.

The Ithaca Journal reports that the statesrabies laboratory determined Tuesday that the fox was rabid.

The Tompkins County Health Department says two people were hiking a trail in Buttermilk Falls State Park in Ithaca last Friday when they were attacked by the fox. The animal bit one of the hikers before park police officers shot and killed it.

The report said rabies is often a fatal disease if untreated.

The above is a rarity, but it does happen. Other known rabies carriers are skunks and 'coons.

Bottom line? Just HYOH and keep your eyes open. Odds? You'll probably never see a rabid or "strange acting" small animal.

[Wise Old Owl]

Hii...

. Other known rabies carriers are skunks and 'coons.

Bottom line? Just HYOH and keep your eyes open. Odds? You'll probably never see a rabid or "strange acting" small animal.


I have seen rabid racoons on trails - generally - I give them a wide circle of bushwacking.

[samgriffin4]

You'll be fine.

[Feral Bill]

Hii...

The report said rabies is often a fatal disease if untreated.

. For all practical purposes, rabies is 100% fatal, if not treated promptly. I think two or three people have survived it, ever. Best to avoid it, I think.

[stranger]

The scariest moment I've ever had while hiking on the AT was in 2001, near Culvers Gap. I took a shot to the head, broke my glasses, nearly knocked a tooth out, scratches all over my head and face...

I fell out of a parked truck face first at Gyp's Tavern at 1am (the seatbelt attacked me as I was trying to exit)

[rocketsocks]

The scariest moment I've ever had while hiking on the AT was in 2001, near Culvers Gap. I took a shot to the head, broke my glasses, nearly knocked a tooth out, scratches all over my head and face...

I fell out of a parked truck face first at Gyp's Tavern at 1am (the seatbelt attacked me as I was trying to exit)So who won the round?

[SassyWindsor]

Hiking any trail is optional, getting back home alive, after said hike, is mandatory. Your personal safety is your responsibility, take it very seriously.

[weary]

Yes, there are real dangers on trails. But the greatest danger is to sit at home piddling on the internet, playing video games, or watching TV, and the early death from inactivity.

[Suckerfish]

You're more likely to get bitten by a copperhead or timber ratler than to get attacked by a human. The AT is the most traveled long distance trail in the US, you're more likely to get into trouble hiking other lesser known trails than hiking the AT.

[rickb]

You're more likely to get bitten by a copperhead or timber ratler than to get attacked by a human.

My guess is that if 5 thru hikers had been killed on the AT by a copperhead or timber ratler -- and if a long distance section hiker had been killed by a copper head or timbler ratler just last year -- the trhu hiking community would not dismiss people's concerns about those reptiles as unfounded.

[weary]

My guess is that if 5 thru hikers had been killed on the AT by a copperhead or timber ratler -- and if a long distance section hiker had been killed by a copper head or timbler ratler just last year -- the trhu hiking community would not dismiss people's concerns about those reptiles as unfounded.
Well, it's certainly true that 5 deaths from snakes would catch our attention, since copper head and timber rattler bites are only very, very rarely fatal.

And yes, people have been murdered on trails. We should all be aware that nut cases, and even criminals, exist everywhere. The problem is there if very little we can do about it. Unless someone announces in advance he is about to kill you, victims usually get caught by surprise. The two thru-hiker deaths that I know most about because the victims were from Maine made the mistake of trying to counsel an obvious nut job. Take notice. If someone doesn't ask for help with his life, don't offer help.

These events happen so rarely, and so rarely is advanced notice given, that one has really very little choice. Either stay home and vegetate, or accept that risks are a part of life. The trail remains about the safest place one can be. So go, but stay alert. I have yet to see convincing evidence that anything else helps.

[Pathfinder1]

weary;
Absolutely true. 19 years after my long walk at age 64, I increasingly feel that it's true that no one gets out of this world alive.

FWIW, I did conduct an informal poll of women I got to know well on most of the many trails I have walked over the past 80 years.



Hi...


Eighty years old? Really? If so, FINALLY someone older than me is posting on this forum...!!

[rocketsocks]

weary;
Absolutely true. 19 years after my long walk at age 64, I increasingly feel that it's true that no one gets out of this world alive.

FWIW, I did conduct an informal poll of women I got to know well on most of the many trails I have walked over the past 80 years.



Hi...


Eighty years old? Really? If so, FINALLY someone older than me is posting on this forum...!!Taking a little artistic license from Dolly Parton and Jim Morrison:Working 9 to 5,no one here gets...out alive!:D

[vamelungeon]

Taking a little artistic license from Dolly Parton and Jim Morrison:Working 9 to 5,no one here gets...out alive!:D
Hank Williams Sr. had a song- "I'll Never Get Out of This World Alive"

[Winds]

THREAD SUMMARY – Continued from post #90

Additional learning to this point:

57. I will now do this for every post over 2 pages.
58. Finn is probably too frugal.
59. If you have a reason to fire a weapon, it should be to shoot someone.
60. Mikey is considered slightly ill.
61. Firearms get engaged, and that’s not difficult.
62. Women deal with drunk guys forcing their way into apartments.
63. I am fun and beyond.
64. Kool-Aid doesn’t like Dave, but Dave may like Kool-Aid?
65. If you hike the A.T. you’re probably going to die.
66. The greatest threat to Oldbear’s personal safety has been his stupidity.
67. 100% of people who have hiked the A.T. will die.
68. Finn knows a dozen people still living.
69. Your odds of being murdered on your toilet are 100 times that while hiking the A.T.
70. John thinks Rickb is interested in this topic.
71. Fear sucks and medication is the best.
72. Being murdered while hiking is completely possible.
73. Being murdered just once is enough.
74. There are some inherent risks to everything.
75. Accepting risk is a part of life and smart people know that sometimes a helmet is in order.
76. Weary uses informal polls to meet women (nice!).
77. The trail is the safest place one could be.
78. Rocketsocks has talked with weird people.
79. Drunken groups who yellow blaze from shelter to hostel to shelter are a shame.
80. WingedMonkey has never run any bad groups.
81. Millions enjoy Central Park without incident.
82. You can be bitten by a brown recluse spider and watch your skin fall off.
83. A lifetime experience just takes a little leap of faith.
84. New York hikers can get rabies from fox bites.
85. You’ll probably never see a rabid animal.
86. Rabid raccoons are on trails.
87. You will be fine.
88. 2 or 3 people have survived rabies, but it’s best to avoid it.
89. Stranger falls out of parked trucks.
90. Getting home alive after hiking a trail is mandatory.
91. Personal safety is your responsibility.
92. The greatest danger is sitting at home watching the TV.
93. Lesser known trails are more dangerous than the A.T.
94. Nut cases, even criminals exist everywhere.
95. Don’t try to counsel an obvious nut job or you could end up dead.
96. It’s rare to get advanced notice if someone is going to kill you.
97. Weary is weary that anything but staying alert helps.
98. Rocketsocks likes Dolly Parton and Jim Morrison.
99. Vamelungeon likes Hank Williams Sr.

You’re welcome, hike on!
:)

[WIAPilot]

Winds: As always, SUPERB!!

[Sarcasm the elf]

Winds, that was brilliant!

[rocketsocks]

Winds if you'll do this for all posts,then I could visit only once a day,instead of 20,I like it.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Winds if you'll do this for all posts,then I could visit only once a day,instead of 20,I like it.

But then what would we all do when we were bored at work?

[hikerboy57]

Those are the times i actually get some work done. Brilliant job winds.

[rocketsocks]

But then what would we all do when we were bored at work?Ok ok....I'll post I'll post,but could ya still do the clif notes,there funny as he double hockey sticks.

[Drybones]

Given the choice of trail or city, I'd feel much safer on the trail. Your likelyhood of of crossing a pervert would be greater in town than on the trail. After a week on the trail you will feel more comfortable.

[rocketsocks]

Given the choice of trail or city, I'd feel much safer on the trail. Your likelyhood of of crossing a pervert would be greater in town than on the trail. After a week on the trail you will feel more comfortable.I agree the trail safe,just treat it as you would any other situation,with caution,pause and a cool head.