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Cozy
05-08-2012, 19:57
1) I purchased Sawyer odorless permethrin spray (although the box isn't even open and it smells like pesticide). Before I spray this stuff, will the clothing stink like pesticide or will it lose it's smell once it sprays on and dries?

2) Do I spray it also on my new backpack and new tent? Fleece and nylon hats? Boots? Or just shirt, socks, gaiters, Trousers/shorts?

3) I also purchased Repel 100 insect repellent that allegedly repels insects for up to 10'hours. ingredients: 98.11% DEET, 1.89% other ingredients.
Is the % of DEET too high? Seems it.

Thx in advance. BTW, this is for a section hike in central and northern VA.

colonel r
05-08-2012, 20:08
I don't like Deet but use Picardin instead. I soaked all clothing and sprayed hammock and backpack with permethrin. So far it has worked well.

R

Cozy
05-08-2012, 20:18
Does it smell or does the smell leave once it dries?

Rocket Jones
05-08-2012, 20:27
For Deet, anything over 40% is wasted concentration.

My clothes smell very faintly of permethrin, but I diluted my own before soaking my pants, shirt and hat. Sawyer may use a version without any scent, I've heard that it's available, but I've never seen it.

johnnybgood
05-08-2012, 20:35
Spray a light mist while keeping the distance recommended on the bottle and the odor is so faint that it's nearly odorless.

leaftye
05-08-2012, 20:37
It has a scent, but it's quickly overcome by my own scent.

ChinMusic
05-08-2012, 20:41
1) I purchased Sawyer odorless permethrin spray (although the box isn't even open and it smells like pesticide). Before I spray this stuff, will the clothing stink like pesticide or will it lose it's smell once it sprays on and dries?
Zero smell as far as I'm concerned.


2) Do I spray it also on my new backpack and new tent? Fleece and nylon hats? Boots? Or just shirt, socks, gaiters, Trousers/shorts?


I'd spray pack and opening/floor of tent. Not sure if your hat will hold the material, can't hurt.

bigcranky
05-08-2012, 20:49
Zero smell when dried. I spray it outside, on a large sheet of plastic (painter's drop cloth), then let it dry flat for a couple of days. I spray until the fabric is wet. This year I'll spray all my clothing, both on-trail and camp clothes, hat, shoes, and the outside of my hammock.

bigcranky
05-08-2012, 20:50
Oh, and I toss the drop cloth when the clothes are dry.

Wise Old Owl
05-08-2012, 21:10
1) I purchased Sawyer odorless permethrin spray (although the box isn't even open and it smells like pesticide). Before I spray this stuff, will the clothing stink like pesticide or will it lose it's smell once it sprays on and dries?YES

2) Do I spray it also on my new backpack and new tent? NO Fleece and nylon hats? NO Boots?NO Or just shirt, socks, gaiters, Trousers/shorts?YES

3) I also purchased Repel 100 insect repellent that allegedly repels insects for up to 10'hours. ingredients: 98.11% DEET, 1.89% other ingredients.
Is the % of DEET too high? Seems it.

Thx in advance. BTW, this is for a section hike in central and northern VA.

Permethrin kills ticks on contact with treated clothing. Permethrin acts as a neurotoxin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxin), slowing down the (INSECT) nervous system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system) through binding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_binding) to sodium channels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_channel). This action is negatively correlated to temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature), thus, in general, showing more acute effects on cold-blooded (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cold-blooded) animals (insects, fish, frogs...) over warm-blooded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warm-blooded) animals (mammals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal) and birds):

DEET was historically believed to work by blocking insect olfactory receptors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor) for 1-octen-3-ol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Octen-3-ol), a volatile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatility_%28chemistry%29) substance that is contained in human sweat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat) and breath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath). The prevailing theory was that DEET effectively "blinds" the insect's senses so that the biting/feeding instinct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct) is not triggered by humans or other animals which produce these chemicals. DEET does not appear to affect the insect's ability to smell carbon dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide), as had been suspected earlier.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-petherick-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-4)
However, more recent evidence shows that DEET serves as a true repellent in that mosquitoes intensely dislike the smell of the chemical repellent.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-5) A type of olfactory receptor neuron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor_neuron) in special antennal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28biology%29) sensilla of mosquitoes that is activated by DEET as well as other known insect repellents such as eucalyptol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptol), linalool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linalool), and thujone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thujone) has been identified. Moreover, in a behavioral test DEET had a strong repellent activity in the absence of body odor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_odor) attractants such as 1-octen-3-ol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-octen-3-ol), lactic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid), or carbon dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide). Female and male mosquitoes showed the same response.

So Deet like Deep Woods Off is best as a small Spray up on boots and pant legs. Pyrethrum is a soak for Hammocks and outer clothing... Don't confuse the two.

ChinMusic
05-08-2012, 21:13
Oh, and I toss the drop cloth when the clothes are dry.

why????????????

Winds
05-08-2012, 21:29
3M recommends if you are sweating a lot, increase the concentration of DEET.
I am questioning this logic and haven't seen data supporting this yet.

ChinMusic
05-08-2012, 21:48
With my clothing treated with permethrin my need for Deet drops dramatically. I treat my Buff with permethrin and wearing it seems to keep the buggers away from my neck and face. During real buggy times Deet on arms, hands and face still needed but not too bad. I prefer Ultrathon for my Deet.

Wise Old Owl
05-08-2012, 21:52
why????????????

The drop cloth would take 25-50 washings to wash out. Not everyone is as comfortable as you and me.

RedBeerd
05-09-2012, 07:16
How about spraying rain gear?

Cozy
05-09-2012, 07:48
That was my next question too!

Rain Man
05-09-2012, 09:08
1) I purchased Sawyer odorless permethrin spray (although the box isn't even open and it smells like pesticide). Before I spray this stuff, will the clothing stink like pesticide or will it lose it's smell once it sprays on and dries?

Sawyer's brand leaves no real odor, though keep in mind that some people can smell exceedingly well, others not so. Your mileage may vary.


2) Do I spray it also on my new backpack and new tent? Fleece and nylon hats? Boots? Or just shirt, socks, gaiters, Trousers/shorts?

Depending on how much spray I have, I start with socks & gaiters, then shorts and shirt, then hat and buff/bandana, then shoes and backpack, then hammock and backpack. I use my Tyvek "ground cloth" as my drop cloth for all this. Thus, it gets treated with the side spray and I most certainly do not throw it away.


3) I also purchased Repel 100 insect repellent that allegedly repels insects for up to 10'hours. ingredients: 98.11% DEET, 1.89% other ingredients. Is the % of DEET too high? Seems it.

Studies show that any DEET concentration over 33% or so has no discernible extra benefit, thus you are more apt to poison yourself for nothing. Sure it's a sales gimmick, but high concentrations are dubious.

Finally, liquid Permethrin is VERY BAD for cats (can be fatal). Keep cats away from wet Permethrin (also keep it away from fish). Once dry, it poses no danger to them.

You can spray rain gear, but the Sawyer's folks day the tight weave and water-proofing act to keep the Permethrin from soaking in or doing as much good.

Sawyer's video on use of its product. (http://vimeo.com/39012753)

Rain:sunMan

.

bigcranky
05-09-2012, 10:35
why????????????

The drop cloth is just cheap thin plastic sheeting, and covered in large amounts of permethrin, which I would rather not try to wash off.

Ewker
05-09-2012, 12:24
Finally, liquid Permethrin is VERY BAD for cats (can be fatal). Keep cats away from wet Permethrin (also keep it away from fish). Once dry, it poses no danger to them.

Rain Man

.

you say that like it is a bad thing :D

RedBeerd
05-09-2012, 14:23
Finally, liquid Permethrin is VERY BAD for cats (can be fatal). Keep cats away from wet Permethrin (also keep it away from fish). Once dry, it poses no danger to them.

Rain Man

.

you say that like it is a bad thing :D

No kidding. Being allergic to cats, permethrin sounds like a good way to keep them away :)

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 14:54
The drop cloth is just cheap thin plastic sheeting, and covered in large amounts of permethrin, which I would rather not try to wash off.
The soak method wastes nearly zero permethrin.

Ewker
05-09-2012, 15:33
No kidding. Being allergic to cats, permethrin sounds like a good way to keep them away :)

you got that right

Miner
05-09-2012, 15:42
Having a sheet of plastic coated in Permithrin would make a good ground cloth for hiking. Its perfect for those of us who cowboy camp or use a tarp, it would keep the crawling insects away. I normally use a polycro sheet for that anyway since its lighter then tyvek and 1 sheet lasted me over 2000miles on the PCT.

As for what to treat with permithrin: And if they are out, they can't bit through it anyway. I treat all my normal clothing that is worn on the outside including hats, socks and maybe shoes (hard to do on a thru-hike when you buy new ones). I don't bother with heavy insulating jackets or raingear since when you are wearing them, bugs usuallly aren't a problem and they can't bit through them anyway. I don't treat my backpacking gear or tents though some people treat their netting. It probably won't hurt if you do though.

I still don't understand why people use a pump or spray bottle for applying DEET instead of the time release lotion like 3M's Ultrathon which works really well. With the lotion, you can control how much you apply and where far better and I find a single container lasts much longer then the spray. That said, the permithrin on your clothes and hat will do most of the work keeping mosquitos away so there isn't a daily need for DEET except when they appear to be a grey cloud hovering round you.

Winds
05-09-2012, 15:56
I still don't understand why people use a pump or spray bottle for applying DEET instead of the time release lotion like 3M's Ultrathon which works really well. With the lotion, you can control how much you apply and where far better and I find a single container lasts much longer then the spray.

Great information Miner. How does this apply to hours of massive sweating? And then what is the concentration of DEET?

Thanks!

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 16:30
Having a sheet of plastic coated in Permithrin would make a good ground cloth for hiking. Its perfect for those of us who cowboy camp or use a tarp, it would keep the crawling insects away.

I don't think permethrin would stay with something smooth like plastic for nearly as long as clothing. Permethrin needs to get into a material like the weaving of clothing. Now, it might stick better to weathered Tyvek for use as a ground cloth. Plastic? kinda doubt it.

Miner
05-09-2012, 16:42
Great information Miner. How does this apply to hours of massive sweating? And then what is the concentration of DEET? 3M Ultrathon lotion is 34.34% DEET. Its suppose to be sweat and splash resistant However, I'm don't sweat as much as others but have found it remains effective throughout a hot day of hiking. Your mileage may varry. Their website is here (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Ultrathon/Products/).

Miner
05-09-2012, 16:44
I don't think permethrin would stay with something smooth like plastic for nearly as long as clothing. Permethrin needs to get into a material like the weaving of clothing. Now, it might stick better to weathered Tyvek for use as a ground cloth. Plastic? kinda doubt it. True, but my point was at least you'd get some use out of it instead of throwing it away. And actually, it does work with Tyvek as I know people who do that when camping in heavy tick infested areas.

peakbagger
05-09-2012, 16:50
I have had great luck with ultrathon. It last far longer than 100% deet and doesnt soak into the skin as much plus its less agressive on plastics.

Most spray on permeterin is 99 percent propellent that can gas out a enclosed space quickly with 1% active ingredient. Definitely spray outdoors if you have to, but soak in works better. Ticks will not walk on treated fabric but if your shoes arent treated they will hang out there until they can make a run for it up your pant leg. Good reason to tuck in your pants. I have sprayed my gaiters in the past and it worked but didnt last a slong. I have to soak soem pants and will probably try soaking the gaiters

Wise Old Owl
05-09-2012, 17:57
Turns out you have something there it is micro encapsulated 25% Deet slowing the absorption into the skin. Has Merit.. When the other spray bottles run out - I would buy some..


Oh and I can get the good Permethrin ... its not 1%

Rain Man
05-09-2012, 18:30
3M Ultrathon lotion is 34.34% DEET. Its suppose to be sweat and splash resistant However, I'm don't sweat as much as others but have found it remains effective throughout a hot day of hiking. Your mileage may varry. Their website is here (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Ultrathon/Products/).

That's what I use (my brother works for 3M). I use the tube with the sponge applicator. Never have to get the stuff all over my fingers. :)

Rain Man

.

Cozy
05-09-2012, 19:13
When you and others say 'soak', do you mean placing the chemical in a bucket and soaking your clothing in it? Or do you mean soaking the clothing by aggressively overspraying (soaking) the clothing?

Rocket Jones
05-09-2012, 19:15
Soaking refers to putting the chemical into a bucket, diluting it to the proper strength with water, and then, yes, soaking your clothing in it. Then you wring the clothes out and leave them out to dry.

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 19:40
When you and others say 'soak', do you mean placing the chemical in a bucket and soaking your clothing in it? Or do you mean soaking the clothing by aggressively overspraying (soaking) the clothing?
This stuff: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FIVE-5-SAWYER-INSECT-REPELLENT-MILITARY-STYLE-CLOTHING-TREATMENT-/200753829793?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebddc57a1

It comes with a bag. You roll up your clothing and place it in the bag. You then pour the contents of the bottle and add 3 more bottles of water. Seal the bag. Wait like 2 hours. Hang clothes and let dry.

No buckets needed.

Cozy
05-09-2012, 20:19
Why isn't this available on Sawyer's website or Amazon? I don't buy stuff on eBay. Suggestions? Or is the spray sufficient to use?

ChinMusic
05-09-2012, 20:21
Why isn't this available on Sawyer's website or Amazon? I don't buy stuff on eBay. Suggestions? Or is the spray sufficient to use?
Spray is fine. I just find the soak method so much simpler and I know I am not missing a spot or under treating. No waste either.

I usu buy the stuff off of Cabelas and they didn't have it either. I had to buy off eBay recently. Don't know what the deal is with that.

Kool-Aid
05-10-2012, 18:07
Has anyone ecperienced problems going through airport security and TSA with clothes that have been treated?

bigcranky
05-10-2012, 20:17
Has anyone ecperienced problems going through airport security and TSA with clothes that have been treated?

There's no reason they would ever know. The treated clothing looks, feels, and smells completely normal.

Silent Bob
05-10-2012, 20:46
Why isn't this available on Sawyer's website or Amazon? I don't buy stuff on eBay. Suggestions? Or is the spray sufficient to use?

Here is a site http://www.scs-mall.com/Sawyer-Permethrin-5-Pack-Military-Style-Treatment-Kit/productinfo/SP653/

Kool-Aid
05-10-2012, 21:18
Just in case they decided to swip my day pack or clothes and put the sample through the magical machine that tells them I'm a good guy or bad guy......

bigcranky
05-11-2012, 07:22
Just in case they decided to swip my day pack or clothes and put the sample through the magical machine that tells them I'm a good guy or bad guy......

Oh, yeah, they swipe my camera gear every time. Shouldn't be a problem, pretty sure the machine is looking for explosives components, and I've never heard of a permethrin bomb. In any case, several companies sell pre-treated clothing for travelers, so you would not be the first person wearing treated clothes on an airplane.

KristalB
05-15-2012, 07:40
That's what I use (my brother works for 3M). I use the tube with the sponge applicator. Never have to get the stuff all over my fingers. :)

Rain Man

.

Sponge applicator?! BRILLIANT :) Thanks for the tip. My water filter comes with a sponge that I never use. I got a new filter and with it came yet another sponge. That should be perfect.

Thank you, Rain Man. :D

Wise Old Owl
05-15-2012, 11:05
Having a sheet of plastic coated in Permithrin would make a good ground cloth for hiking. Its perfect for those of us who cowboy camp or use a tarp, it would keep the crawling insects away. I normally use a polycro sheet for that anyway since its lighter then tyvek and 1 sheet lasted me over 2000miles on the PCT.

As for what to treat with permithrin: And if they are out, they can't bit through it anyway. I treat all my normal clothing that is worn on the outside including hats, socks and maybe shoes (hard to do on a thru-hike when you buy new ones). I don't bother with heavy insulating jackets or raingear since when you are wearing them, bugs usuallly aren't a problem and they can't bit through them anyway. I don't treat my backpacking gear or tents though some people treat their netting. It probably won't hurt if you do though.

I still don't understand why people use a pump or spray bottle for applying DEET instead of the time release lotion like 3M's Ultrathon which works really well. With the lotion, you can control how much you apply and where far better and I find a single container lasts much longer then the spray. That said, the permithrin on your clothes and hat will do most of the work keeping mosquitos away so there isn't a daily need for DEET except when they appear to be a grey cloud hovering round you.

OK just a FYI, it repels flying insects - gnats,mosquitos, etc.... ticks can crawl through and would take "up to" 8 hours to die. if a mosquito was hungry enough it too can get a blood meal and die later.... this isn't a shield. In fact, when pulling up the label/msds for cattle applications- ticks arn't listed. Lower your expectations - It's a good repellent.

For "Cowboy camp" you still benefit from a torso head bug net - not one over the head - the head covers are for hiking, not sleeping.

Theosus
05-15-2012, 14:25
Anyone just buy the mix-your-own permethrin? I buy a bottle of High-Yield 38% permethrin and spray around the house foundation every year. It helps keep ants out. It gives instructions for how to make a .5% emulsion (basically a shot glass full in a two gallon sprayer).
Is that what's in the clothing spray bottle? Id like to spray my socks and shoes, but dont want my skin sloughing off.

jeffmeh
05-15-2012, 15:29
Anyone just buy the mix-your-own permethrin? I buy a bottle of High-Yield 38% permethrin and spray around the house foundation every year. It helps keep ants out. It gives instructions for how to make a .5% emulsion (basically a shot glass full in a two gallon sprayer).
Is that what's in the clothing spray bottle? Id like to spray my socks and shoes, but dont want my skin sloughing off.

I believe that some of the higher yield formulations have a significant amount of petroleum in the mix, and are not particularly suitable for clothing. At the very least, you may not like the odor. Here's one at 10% that I have used with good results. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EVKE0A/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

Wise Old Owl
06-11-2012, 15:19
I just got so bit up - I sprayed DWO and followed it with Bullfrog, sun protectant... and in spite of my efforts (regular clothing) I am covered in mosquito bites, tick bites, chiggers, sun burn, and poison ivy today. Just got back from the back bays of Indian River Inlet from hiking and hanging....


if there was a tiny missed spot - they found it..... So I am moving forward with the soaking the Hammock, a tech pant, and two shirts.... I am going back in two weeks.

Theosus
06-12-2012, 13:41
After that trip, I think I would go back in February... Ouch.

WingedMonkey
06-12-2012, 14:30
I just got so bit up - I sprayed DWO and followed it with Bullfrog, sun protectant... and in spite of my efforts (regular clothing) I am covered in mosquito bites, tick bites, chiggers, sun burn, and poison ivy today. Just got back from the back bays of Indian River Inlet from hiking and hanging....


if there was a tiny missed spot - they found it..... So I am moving forward with the soaking the Hammock, a tech pant, and two shirts.... I am going back in two weeks.



There's something about a bug exterminator being eat up by bugs that just makes me:

:dance

Chicken Feathers
06-13-2012, 15:22
Why isn't this available on Sawyer's website or Amazon? I don't buy stuff on eBay. Suggestions? Or is the spray sufficient to use?
This stuff works good on cotton clothing but will not work as stated on hiking clothing because hiking clothes are woven so tight permathin will not soak into clothing will remain on surface and when you wash clothing it will wash away. Very expensive just check yourself every night

ChinMusic
06-13-2012, 17:07
This stuff works good on cotton clothing but will not work as stated on hiking clothing because hiking clothes are woven so tight permathin will not soak into clothing will remain on surface and when you wash clothing it will wash away.
Bull. Been using it on hiking clothes for years. The weave is not an issue.

While the material cannot be something like plastic it most certainly DOES remain in "hiking clothing".

max patch
06-13-2012, 19:29
Consumer Reports says....

Consumer Reports found a direct correlation between DEET concentration and hours of protection against insect bites. 100% DEET was found to offer up to 12 hours of protection while several lower concentration DEET formulations (20%-34%) offered 3–6 hours of protection.

catch
06-24-2012, 19:07
The can of spray-on permethrin I purchased indicates that treatment will last "at least two weeks." In your experience how long does it actually work on hiking clothing? I'll be doing the Long Trail in Vermont (~4 weeks) and will have access to washing facilities 1-3 times in the month.

johnnybgood
06-24-2012, 19:26
Just want to remind everyone that Permetrin in it's liquid state can be fatal to cats if ingested. After it dries it is no longer a danger. It can dry in as little as 20 minutes outdoors in hot humid conditions.

The advertised longevity and effectiveness is 6 washings .

WIAPilot
06-24-2012, 19:43
Just want to remind everyone that Permetrin in it's liquid state can be fatal to cats if ingested. After it dries it is no longer a danger. It can dry in as little as 20 minutes outdoors in hot humid conditions.

The advertised longevity and effectiveness is 6 washings .

It is advised that you not even spray it in the same house as cats. Spray gets on the floor, cats walk on it, lick their paws, etc.

Chicken Feathers
06-25-2012, 16:43
Bull. Been using it on hiking clothes for years. The weave is not an issue.

While the material cannot be something like plastic it most certainly DOES remain in "hiking clothing".
Glad it works for you but in my opinion it does not work on hiking pants. Waste of money

weary
06-25-2012, 20:44
As I grow older I tend not to use things or chemicals that kill things. Some years I even forget to apply for a doe hunting permit. Anyway, I especially resist killing chemicals. So I rarely experiment with chemicals that allegedly kill things.

I live in a bug heavy coastal environment. But I get by with liquid DEET -- 100 percent no less. It doesn't kill. lt just repells. I mostly use liquid, though I sometimes persuade my wife to spray her pressure spray on the back of my tee shirt on bug-heavy days.

Aside from not having to breathe the spray, a liquid bottle of 100 percent Deet, weighs only about an ounce, and lasts a full season if I don't lose it, or place the opened container upside down in my pocket.

ChinMusic
06-25-2012, 21:41
Glad it works for you but in my opinion it does not work on hiking pants. Waste of money

I'd like to know what your opinion is based on cause it makes zero sense.