PDA

View Full Version : How'd he do it?



Caleb
04-10-2005, 09:18
Here's an honest question for all you (ex) military or law enforcement types. How in the world did Eric Rudolph evade all the dogs and trackers and infrared for all those years? I'm not exactly planning an ACT II, but his kind of woodcraft and stealth ability goes so far beyond my understanding as to leave me feel naggingly incomplete as an outdoorsman. This is probably not rational or wholesome but I am mystified nonetheless. Are some things best left unknown or could someone offer up some of the basics?

MOWGLI
04-10-2005, 09:31
Here's an honest question for all you (ex) military or law enforcement types. How in the world did Eric Rudolph evade all the dogs and trackers and infrared for all those years? I'm not exactly planning an ACT II, but his kind of woodcraft and stealth ability goes so far beyond my understanding as to leave me feel naggingly incomplete as an outdoorsman. This is probably not rational or wholesome but I am mystified nonetheless. Are some things best left unknown or could someone offer up some of the basics?


Well, I've heard a number of stories from folks who interacted with FBI agents looking for him. One story in particular come to mind.

An FBI Agent joined a 10+ mile hike on a hot day in hopes of finding Rudolph. He wore dress shoes and carried no water or snacks. Within a short period of time he was hurtin' BIG TIME. This was on the NC Bartram Trail. If not for the generosity of the hike leaders, this guy was in serious trouble.

Now, not every FBI Agent is that uninformed about backcountry travel. But... knowing the terrain intimately, and HAVING HELP from people who sympathize with you...

The Nantahala Mountains are very rugged. If you'd spent your life buishwacking the region, you'd have a serious leg-up on any trackers, regardless of technology used.

Lone Wolf
04-10-2005, 09:32
He wasn't where anybody thought he was.

minnesotasmith
04-10-2005, 09:35
There is much speculation that he had help. There were a number of sympathetic people living in that region, as evidenced by the many bumper stickers reading "Run Eric Run".

Rain Man
04-10-2005, 09:40
Don't know if this helps, but from reading about the murders at Wapiti II Shelter, it took the dogs a long time to find both those decaying bodies nearby.

I suppose it's an art, not a science, to tracking someone, dead or alive?

Rain:sunMan

.

RU98A
04-10-2005, 09:51
It's called skill. Lots of difference moving cross country bushwhacking than walking along a well marked trail.

Dances with Mice
04-10-2005, 12:49
Here's an honest question for all you (ex) military or law enforcement types. How in the world did Eric Rudolph evade all the dogs and trackers and infrared for all those years? I'm not exactly planning an ACT II, but his kind of woodcraft and stealth ability goes so far beyond my understanding as to leave me feel naggingly incomplete as an outdoorsman. This is probably not rational or wholesome but I am mystified nonetheless. Are some things best left unknown or could someone offer up some of the basics?I'm ex-military and ex-law enforcement. Disappearance of people isn't anything new.

+ Tracking dogs, under ideal circumstances, are effective for a short time and they have to be positioned EXACTLY on the subject's trail. If you don't know precisely where someone/something is at, if environmental conditions aren't right, dogs aren't much help. Ask a coon-hunter that runs dogs, they know puppies' limitations because not every one of their hunts is successful.

+ Trackers have to be on a track. Soft shoes in forest duff don't leave much to work with. If trackers don't know what shoes the subject was wearing (in Eric's case they didn't), and they don't know which way he went, then they're helpless. And like dogs they have to be exactly on the subject's trail.

Since I've worked with infrared in the military and now everyday in commercial applications, don't depend on it too much. Trying to interpret IR of a single acre would take weeks - rocks, differences in vegetation, elevation, other animals (bear, deer, woodchucks, whatever) differences in soil types, other people (hikers, fishermen, hunters) all can cause IR signals that need to be interpreted. Interpreting IR signals from a desert at night, for example, is complicated enough. Eastern woodlands aren't that simple. Detecting an IR signal of someone wearing clothing beneath a wet forest canopy is impossible. Using IR to find someone in winter beneath a forest canopy and under any type of shelter is impossible. In this instance, IR was the right tool in the wrong place.

Wrong assumptions also played a major part in Eric's evasion.

+ He had no special survivalist training in the military. So he qualified as "Marskman" with the M-16. Yeah, well so did my near-sighted wife. That ain't no big thing.
+ He was expected to be hunting for his meat BUT there's no evidence that he did.
+ He was expected to stay on the move BUT it appears he hunkered down near a small town instead.
+ He was expected to live off the land BUT instead he raided corn cribs and went dumpster diving - there was a high school and fast food places where he was found. Do you know how well a family can live off the food any high school cafeteria throws out? He said his favorite food was discarded tacos. Some woodsman! He might as well been living in the gutters of NYC.
+ He was expected to get help from sympathetic locals. He didn't. He was caught with his hair full of dumpster doo. Lots of help he got.
+ A little clandestine breaking and entering can go a long ways. He was also caught with a flashlight during his gourmet dumpster dine. So where'd the batteries come from? Obviously not from sympathizers who were feeding him.
+ His "supporters" were fewer than expected. Know why? Remember the bomb he set outside the lesbian club in Atlanta? He didn't set just one - he set TWO: one timed to go off when the police, firemen, and emergency crews arrived on the scene. That ain't 'anti-government', that's just sick. . Even the most virulent gay bashers wouldn't support that action. The people he needed support from probably wished he'd burn in hell.
+ His "supporters" were much fewer than expected, part two. Remember the Atlanta Olympic bombing? What government was going to be harmed by a bomb set under a music stage timed to go off during an evening concert? That ain't 'anti-government', that's just sick.

BTW: Me, my wife, and 3 kids walked by that stage earlier that day. I've got pictures of us taken that day in that place. They probably weren't much help but I sent them to the ATL police anyway.

So. If you want to live on the edge of society, hide on the outskirts of a small town, scrounge corn meant for pig food, and dumpster dive for the majority of your food, you could probably spend a couple of years without detection too. Have fun.

No outdoorsmanship skill needed.

Jack Tarlin
04-10-2005, 13:44
DWM:

Good post.

Chip
04-10-2005, 13:54
DWM:

Good post.
DWM,

I second that !!! Great post !! :clap

Chip

orangebug
04-10-2005, 14:37
Great post. Actually, the two bomb event was at the abortion clinic in Sandy Springs. He timed it 67 minutes after the first explosion. That one was pure terrorism.

Personally, I have some doubts about his involvement with the Olympic Park bombing. It had nothing to do with government, abortion, gender, etc. We had other arsons leading up to the Games, including twice that Margaret Mitchell's house was destroyed. There was a great deal of rage over the financing and graft that occured, suckering a bunch of small business wannabe's into huge debt with venues miles from any visitors. The worst was along Sweet Auburn Avenue. There were threats to "shut the place down," which the bombing accomplished.

I await reading details of his confession, but worry that this case has been closed conveniently.

sourwood
04-10-2005, 14:58
I can totally understand how Rudolph evaded detection. About the same time he disappeared, I spent some time in the Nantahalas helping a friend to work on a survey of old growth in the forest. We would head out in the morning with a map and destination in mind. It would take us all day to bushwhack a mile or two to our site, run our plot, and hike out. At day's end when looking at the miniscule amount of ground we covered, it ocurred to me that finding Rudolph would be next to impossible. On more than one occasion when tromping through Laurel and Rhody thickets I would "lose" my partner. The southern Apps are a dense, rich, wonderful world!

Julie

TakeABreak
04-10-2005, 15:57
Good post DWM, I am slow ex-military, and a good tracker, hiker and outdoors person. I can tell tracking is more instinct than anything and it takes years of being outdoors to perfect. You do not choose it, it either comes to you or doesn't.

How did Eric, evade the police, easily hide in the open, as stated above they expected to be where he wasn't. And had he been there they could have walked right past him and not known it. While training for my 2000 hike in 99, living near the smokies and trained in and around the smokies almost daily. I would stop for a snack or to just take in the view, perch myself on a rock just above a trail and watch people walk right past me and not even know I was there.

How many hikers out there, when approaching a road from a trail, would hear cars going down the road and hold back in the tree's until they past, and then cross the road, witht person in the vehicle never knowing you were there. I did, and most women I have talked too who hike alone, did it most of the time, and could tell you if there someone sitting at the trail head before they got there. I know 99% of the time, I can. And I am not, on the run from anyone.

Finding someone who truely does not want to be found, and uses just little bit of intelligence can go a life time without being found.

Tha Wookie
04-10-2005, 16:04
I'm alos interested to hear more details, especially about his involment in the Atl. Olymipc bombing.

I was there when it happened, less than 50 yard from the blast. I remember every detail. There were people lying all around bleeding next to me and my 5 buddies. My one friend was walking right toward it, looking for "chicks", and since I was watching him I saw the whole thing happen. It was a huge blast, with ribbons flowing out of it. At first we thought it was a firework that had gone awry. We were even cheering at first, until we saw the people on the ground. Then everything I ever knew changed. It was not an experience I want to have again. We were al scared. We thought MARTA would explode when we fled. Every thing had a bomb in it. I can't imagine living with that same fear all the time like in Gaza or Iraq.

I haven't talked about that in a while. But the Rudolf case has stirred those memories big time. I would like to know who did it. Somehow I have a feeling he didn't do it. But who knows. It just doesn't fit his right-wing-nutcase agenda except that it was violent. Maybe it had something against internationals. I just don't understand the motive but I would like to hear more.

If one is well trained in native american scouting, they can be impossible to find. There are some who can stand right in front of you and you cannot see them, even though you know they are there. Sounds weird but it is an art that has been perfected over 10,000 years. But I doubt Rudolf had this training, or he would have not been such a nut. Or at least he would have put his bombs in different places.

But who knows. Please post any links with good info on anything about the ATL bombing if you don't mind. I need some closure.

Caleb
04-10-2005, 17:48
DWM - Thanks for the scoop, and for ending my fascination with on-the-run-Rudolph. C

Dances with Mice
04-10-2005, 18:08
I'm alos interested to hear more details, especially about his involment in the Atl. Olymipc bombing.

'Twas either him or someone else who built bombs using the same techniques and materials that Eric used. Fingers aren't the only thing that leave prints.

After Eric was caught the jailers remember him wolfing down his jail meals and asking for more. Even back in the good ol' days Opie didn't really bring Andy a basket of Aunt Bea's fried chicken and apple pie for the inmates. Jail food sucks! Eric had the appetitie of a hiker BUT HE WASN'T HIKING! The boy was starving. Does that sound like someone who knew how to live off the fat of the land?

I stand corrected on the lesbian nightclub vs. abortion clinic double bombing. Setting a bomb to catch policemen is not a way to win friends and influence people, not even the extreme edge of the right-to-life movement.
So now Eric's facing life in prison. Versus freezing his ass off and starving in the woods, getting 3 hots and a cot for life ain't a bad gig.

There's only two heroes in this sad story.

One was that poor bastard Richard Jewel, the part-time security guard at the Olympic Park who got pinned with the blame for a bit. He did everything exactly right! No one knows how many lives he saved. The FBI couldn't believe he was innocent because Jewel did what he was supposed to do, right out of the text-book. But Jewel was just a simple dumb-ass good ol' boy, and ooh, that's highly suspicious! Doing the right thing is sometimes the worst thing that can happen to someone. But Jewel never changed his story, never cracked under the most intense pressure. The morale is "Do what has to be done and screw the consequences." There's no one on earth I'd rather have covering my back than RJ. Yea, Richard!

The other was the rookie cop, barely out of his teens, who busted a derelict using nothing more than his squad car and a flood light. Eric could have run for the woods but didn't. Eric was exhausted, he didn't have the energy to resist. A lot of cops, cops with more experience, would have just searched the bum and cut him loose. Instead kiddie cop followed the book, busted the scum-sucker and took him to jail. The other officers were probably really impresed: "Yeah, good bust there, kid! You'll make El Tee in no time! Keep bringing in those dumpster dudes!" Tomorrow's news is a direct result of someone else doing what had to be done.

It was't that idiot Bo Gritz, the FBI or planes with hi-tech infrared sensors that finally caught the SOB. It was just a college-aged blue-collar kid doing the job he was paid to do.

I like that.

Tha Wookie
04-10-2005, 19:40
What did he do that made him a hero? The bomb went off, people were hurt instantly. There were cops and medical folks everywhere. To be honest with you, everyone was shocked at how quickly the response was. But I don't know how the cops did anything especially heroic. If anything, they freaked out everyone. They were telling everyone that they thought there was another bomb. They formed a ring from the blast, keeping everyone away from it, and then spread out, pushing everyone back and warning there would probably be another one. Before that, it was actually really calm. Everyone was just looking around, stunned, and leaving already on there own. Then the cops freaked out the crowd and people started running.

The medical folks were the heros.

I remember seconds after the bomb went off, we were just looking around stunned, trying to make sense out of the situation. Suddenly a flood of medical folks came streaming out of the stage area. They were really ready for the blast. I mean really ready. They had at least 30 medical people on the scene in less than a minute. Cops were already everywhere for security i guess.

Sometimes I wonder how the medical folks were so prepared at 1 in the morning at a show with not a lot of people lingering at that point. It was almost as if they had been waiting on the other side of the door tight when the bomb went off, with their gear in hand. It was a matter of seconds, and they all appeared at the same time. We all thought it was weird. But everything was weird that night.

Tha Wookie
04-10-2005, 19:46
'Twas either him or someone else who built bombs using the same techniques and materials that Eric used. Fingers aren't the only thing that leave prints.



From what I understand the bomb was a classic pipe bomb from common directions. How does that constitute a "print"? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see a strong connection with any of it. Of course they will try to pin everything they can on Rudolf. They need to blame someone that they have caught!

Again, I'd like to hear more info about his confession.

stupe
04-10-2005, 21:12
Here's a link to an article in today's NY Times on the subject. It mentions that Rudolf was in pretty good shape when caught, he was well groomed and clean. Eluding cops for that many years without some kind of support would be pretty difficult. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Eric-Rudolph.html? (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Eric-Rudolph.html)
I guess the support was not enough to keep him from scrounging in dumpsters. I think he probably got some sort of help, from sympathetic locals, or some right wing religious organization or both.

Dances with Mice
04-10-2005, 21:50
Wook - not all pipe bombs are created equal. Let's say you wanted to make one now, right now. for use tomorrow. This is strictly a theortical exercise, I'd never imply you would. I'm just saying.

So, anyway...

What pipe would you use? What diameter? What length? What construction? Steel, galvanized, aluminum or PVC? End caps screwed or glued or both? If glued, what adhesive? What explosive would you put in it? What would you pack it with? Nails, maybe? What size? Roofing nails or finishing nails? Maybe BB's? Lead shot? What size? What about glass or gravel? Inside the pipe or attached around it? If outside, how would you contain the shrapnel? How about a timer, what would you choose, electronic or analog? What power source if analog? Would you use a blasting cap with low power explosive or a high explosive without the cap? How would you connect the timer to the blasting cap or explosive? What size wires and where would you get them? How would you connect the wires at either end? Would you drill a hole through a commercial pipe cap or fabricate a new one? If you drill it, what size drill bit would you use? There's really no one "simple pipe bomb". There are lots of independant choices to be made at every step of construction.

What if a series of bombs using exactly the same components and design are set off in different locations over time? Would you assume that a couple of people all made exactly the same series of decisions and purchases? Or would you use Occam's Razor to theorize that all those devices were related?

Those were rhetorical questions, BTW, no need to answer. The point is that home-brew bombers may be creative but they're very conservative in their designs. They use what they know works, over and over. Google "Unabomber" if you need confirmation. Eric was no different. His bombs had 'trademarks' that could be tracked.

Richard Jewel found an unattended backpack in his area of responsibility. He immediately radio'd his supervisors about the backpack. Then he began moving the crowd away from the backpack. Within seconds, less than 30 seconds from the time he found it, the backpack exploded. You were 150 feet away and felt and saw the devastation. There were peoople literally on top of the backpack when he first spotted it! But when it went off nobody was within 20 feet of the bomb, and he had most of those people facing away when the detonator went off. Twenty feet is a huge distance versus 20 inches.

It would have been easy to assume the backpack was simply dropped there innocently by someone in the crowd and ignore it. Jewel didn't. It took initiative to immediately declare it a suspicious package and report it to higher authorities, but he did that. It took courage to interrupt people's concert and quite some force to push that crowd away from the stage, but he did. There was nothing more he could have done in the time he had. What he did do was exactly what should have been done, and nobody knows what the consequences would have been if people had been still clustered around the bomb when it went off.

He did everything so well that the FBI couldn't believe he hadn't planned it all himself. They bugged a friend of his and sent them to dinner together. They brought Richard into the FBI offices under the ruse that they were making a training film and tried to get him to confess. They ransacked his house and all his belongings. They interviewed all people associated with him and "accidentally" (oops!) leaked selected damaging personal information to news media.

Some of the "evidence" against Jewel: He stayed at his post 12 hours a day, like he was paid to do, and he wouldn't leave to take unauthorized breaks like all the other guards! He loved law enforcement and talked to others about it! He thought that one day he might be able to ---get this--- do something to make a difference! He was just a typical working class slob that wanted to do a good job. The FBI couldn't understand that. Jewell got crucified. I hope he's in the court room when Eric pleads guilty.

((((Off topic: I got really PISSED at a Boy Scout Camporee where an instructor showed how to start a fire using common household chemicals. They were exactly the same components that we were shown in the Army Combat Engineers to make a field expedient blasting cap to set off a barrel of explosive composed of fertilizer and fuel oil. Same stuff used to brng down a bulding in Oklahoma, you know the one. But simply place the household chemicals in a screw-top glass bottle instead of a styrofoam cup like the instructor used, and there's a great bomb. Unfortunately my Troop went through that Camporee station late in the day, after a huge bunch of other teenage boys had already been shown the same thing. I hit the freakin' roof! Five years ago, and I'm still steamed. Jesus H. Christ, what were they thinking?!!))))

One Leg
04-10-2005, 22:44
Dances with Mice: Remember the bomb he set outside the lesbian club in Atlanta? He didn't set just one - he set TWO: one timed to go off when the police, firemen, and emergency crews arrived on the scene. That ain't 'anti-government', that's just sick. . Even the most virulent gay bashers wouldn't support that action. The people he needed support from probably wished he'd burn in hell...........BTW: Me, my wife, and 3 kids walked by that stage earlier that day. I've got pictures of us taken that day in that place. They probably weren't much help but I sent them to the ATL police anyway.

In 1996, I was working at the Centennial Olympic Park. I'd gone to get something eat when the bomb went off. It was around 1:18am when the bomb went off. I received the call at 1:22am. We arrived shortly thereafter, and it was total chaos. FUBAR doesn't even come close to describing how chaotic the scene was. My ambulance transported & treated the Turkish photographer who died. It scared him so badly that he had a heart attack. We tried our best to recussitate him, but weren't successful.

Georgia Baptist Hospital (Now known as Atlanta Medical Center) presented all EMS workers with a plaque commending us for our efforts during that time. (The plaque burned in my New Year's day housefire in 1997.)

Fast forward to Febuary 1997. A bomb went of at the "Otherside Lounge", a popular bar for gays and lesbians. I was called to respond. We waited until the scene was declared safe, then entered. As soon as our ambulance pulled into the parking lot, a second bomb went off in a nearby dumpster. It's been reported that the secondary device was found and disarmed, but this is untrue. There wasn't knowledge that the secondary device existed.

My thoughts weren't on the nature of the business we responded to, I thought "They need to get this son of a b---- before anyone else gets hurt." When the second bomb went of so close to my ambulance, it became personal.

Did they get the right guy? Who knows. They butchered Security Guard Richard Jewel on national television, and then it came out that he was innocent. Then the name "Eric Rudolph" comes into the picture, and during the 5 year hunt for him, he was charged with all of the unsolved bombings in Atlanta, in addition to the one in Alabama. Maybe he plead guilty to the Atlanta bombings because he knew he didn't stand a chance of defending himself. Maybe be plead guilty because he actually carried out the bombings. I don't know, but of one thing I am sure, they may lock up Eric Rudolph, but it's only a matter of time before another nutcase idiot with a cause does it again.

One Leg
04-10-2005, 22:58
The medical folks were the heros.

I remember seconds after the bomb went off, we were just looking around stunned, trying to make sense out of the situation. Suddenly a flood of medical folks came streaming out of the stage area. They were really ready for the blast. I mean really ready. They had at least 30 medical people on the scene in less than a minute. Cops were already everywhere for security i guess.

Sometimes I wonder how the medical folks were so prepared at 1 in the morning at a show with not a lot of people lingering at that point. It was almost as if they had been waiting on the other side of the door tight when the bomb went off, with their gear in hand. It was a matter of seconds, and they all appeared at the same time. We all thought it was weird. But everything was weird that night.


Wookie,

We began training months in advance for the Olympics. Cobb Civic Center was the site for a lot of training that consisted of courses titled "Mass Casualty Incident Response", "Treatment of Bomb Blast Injuries", and the like.

In the FF/EMS area, we somehow felt that something was going to happen. Can't explain it, it was just a feeling. Then, when it did happen, we were ready. ACOG spent millions in the area of public safety, and it paid off.

My only regret is that I'm not out there still being a medic. Man, I loved that job.

Tha Wookie
04-10-2005, 23:25
Wookie,

We began training months in advance for the Olympics. Cobb Civic Center was the site for a lot of training that consisted of courses titled "Mass Casualty Incident Response", "Treatment of Bomb Blast Injuries", and the like.

In the FF/EMS area, we somehow felt that something was going to happen. Can't explain it, it was just a feeling. Then, when it did happen, we were ready. ACOG spent millions in the area of public safety, and it paid off.

My only regret is that I'm not out there still being a medic. Man, I loved that job.
Wow, that explains a lot. Thanks, One-leg, you guys really saved the day. I remember the media was saying there was only 1 death (or two in another report), but I never heard about all the people I saw laying around bleeding. I remember a group of people behind me, young girls, crying while every other group seemed to have someone down. Thanks for being ready. I always remember the medics, how calm and quick they were.

DWM- wow, I never heard all of that about Jewel. I tried to stay away from all the coverage of it. It really bothered me for a while. I didn't want to hear anything about it. As a native Atlantan, it was embarassing to me. We were all so proud of our little city hosting the world and then someone (presumably a local) comes and ruins the party in a big and nasty way like that. I;m sure many other Atlantans felt the same way.

The interesting thing is that Jewel seems to have been acting on instinct, like all the medical folks who felt that something was going down that night. it was a weird night all night, even before the bomb. But the whole everything was weird, with all the people visiting.

About the similarities in the bomb design (I think I told myself never to talk about this kind of stuff on the net but oh well I figure this is post-tramatic therapy), I'll use a can stove as an example for my response: Everyone makes 'em a little different, unless they get their directions from the same website, which would not be all that unlikely, even accross the country form the AT to the PCT. Saying the same person made a stove that has all the same parts and hole sizes really doesn't prove that one guy burned down the whole forest, you know?

But Oneleg, I'm not so sure about another bombing anytime soon if it's by the right-wing-utlra-wackos. They don't have any problems pushing their agenda these days, unless the supreme court gets in the way. Besides, they've got ol' Dubya to do all the bombing for them.

Krewzer
04-11-2005, 00:53
I, also, was working the Olympics when this happened. I wasn't at the park when it happened, but was in and out of there a lot.

Now, this son of a bitch Rudolph, is here in my home town of Huntsville, and with the help of a slick lawyer has negotiated his way out of the death penealty. It's a shame they won't turn him over to the State of Alabama to stand trial for murder in the Birmingham bombing.

One Leg
04-11-2005, 01:00
I, also, was working the Olympics when this happened. I wasn't at the park when it happened, but was in and out of there a lot.

Now, this son of a bitch Rudolph, is here in my home town of Huntsville, and with the help of a slick lawyer has negotiated his way out of the death penealty. It's a shame they won't turn him over to the State of Alabama to stand trial for murder in the Birmingham bombing.

Please, God, don't let this turn into a pro/con death penalty debate.

Take someone like Rudolph, supposedly an outdoorsman, loves the mountains, loves the woods. Incarcerate him for the rest of his life in a 6x9 cell. Can't roam free, can't enjoy nature anymore. If it were me, please, put me to death, I'd hate to live like that.

CanoeBlue
04-11-2005, 09:27
[QUOTE=Dances with Mice]

There's only two heroes in this sad story.

One was that poor bastard Richard Jewel, the part-time security guard at the Olympic Park who got pinned with the blame for a bit. He did everything exactly right! No one knows how many lives he saved. The FBI couldn't believe he was innocent because Jewel did what he was supposed to do, right out of the text-book."


I was aware of the bombing but until this thread had little understanding of some of the human dimensions.
What happened to Richard Jewel and where is he today? Was he ever cleared - or even thanked - for the job that he did?

orangebug
04-11-2005, 10:03
They named US 441 in Gainesville for him. He wound up winning or settling several suits against news agencies that were leaked information and reported it without verification. He was on the talk show circuit for a couple of years. He received apologies from FBI and others. He had some trouble getting work for a time due to his notoriety.

Dances with Mice
04-11-2005, 11:00
The last I heard RJ had married and was employed as a policeman in a small town in Georgia. Someone interviewed him when he attended a funeral for another policeman, maybe a year or two ago. Some friends of mine also recognized him at a charity motorcycle ride fairly recently, I don't remember if he was there as a rider or an escort.

Here's some links about his story:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/sports/jewell_10-28.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/columns/story?columnist=kreidler_mark&id=2033318

RockyTrail
04-11-2005, 13:23
On the way home from a long trip, one of my flying buddies landed his single-engine plane for the night at tranqil little Andrews-Murphy airport in the western NC mountains during the years the FBI searched for Rudolph.
<O:p</O:p
After refueling and tieing down the plane, and before heading to a local motel he asked the gentleman working there if it would be safe to keep his sleeping bag, tent, and other junk piled up in the back seat of the small 4-seat plane overnight or should he lock it inside the airport office?

<O:p</O:pThe gentleman replied, "See that plane there? See that twin-engine over there and that other big plane over there? And that Cessna, and that Piper and that one and that one? Them's all FBI airplanes. And those fellows standing over there are FBI folks, and those over there are too. They're here all the time everyday. Don't worry mister, ain't nobody gonna steal anything at this airport!"

<O:p</O:pHe went on to explain that many of the FBI agents were working on getting their pilot license while stationed there; some were even moving up to advanced instrument and multi-engine ratings. They liked the area so much that some were buying property in the area.<O:p</O:p

And the ironic twist; according to the news reports I heard at the time, Rudolph was captured either on or adjacent to the Andrews-Murphy airport grounds, diving for food in a dumpster.<O:p</O:p

weary
04-11-2005, 13:50
I'm ex-military and ex-law enforcement. Disappearance of people isn't anything new.

.......So. If you want to live on the edge of society, hide on the outskirts of a small town, scrounge corn meant for pig food, and dumpster dive for the majority of your food, you could probably spend a couple of years without detection too. Have fun.

No outdoorsmanship skill needed.
Though my "ex-military" was only two years a half century ago and I only hung around law enforcement as an observer for a decade, I think dancing probably has it about right. I suspect Rudolph lived very little in the woods. He just lived quietly around the fringes of towns, breaking and entering seasonal places, picking up dumpster scraps.

I suspect serious help was in the form of the passive ignoring him by a few who didn't really want to know who he was, rather than the active support from the many.

Being a cynic, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually learn that his capture was arranged and the plea deal worked out in advance. Powerful people on both sides of the right to life debate probably wanted to avoid the countdown towards the execution of someone who claimed to be killing to "save the lives of unborn babies."

By the end Rudolph was already imprisoned in a very unpleasant life with no chance of improvement. He may have figured prison was a step up from his present existence.

All this assumes that he was a rational person that could not have copped an insanity plea, though the latter seems a distinct possibility to me. He strikes me as either totally evil, or totally deluded.

Weary

RockyTrail
04-11-2005, 14:13
Correction:
Rudolph was not captured at the Andrews-Murphy airport, but supposedly had been stealing grain from a farming operation next to the airport...sorry about the confusion.

Stoker53
04-11-2005, 15:51
I was born in the town where Rudolph was captured. I still have lots of relatives in Murphy, Andrews, Bryson City, Robbinsville, Marble, Topton so my opinion is based on conversations I have had with family and many local residents.

Western NC, Cherokee County specifically, is an area in flux. The original residents ( my family is one ) and outsiders ( retirees from Fla and upper mid-west and NE US ) have vastly different ideas about what is right/wrong, good/bad. The locals are fiercely independent with a healthy dislike for the State/National govt. They also are very conservative , esp when it comes to religion. The influx of people has raised property values as well as put a strain on services. There are also political differences between the old and the new residents. Lots of hard feelings by the locals toward the outsiders and vice versa. I do not want to start a religious debate with this post but .......

To a few in my family and very many locals Rudolph was a hero. I am not a fan of Eric nor do I support what he did but I CAN and DO understand the local culture. A culture that is very capable of supporting, both actively and passively, a young man who many call "a soldier for the lord".

He bombed abortion clinics and gay night clubs. Most of the US has no idea how deep the resentment of abortion runs within the most conservatively religious amoung us. They view planned parenthood clinic doctors/ nurses / patients as murderers. A very black and white view on the issue. But they believe it just as passionately as the Right to Choose believe in their position. There is NO middle ground for the two groups to compromise and there never will be.

The Gay Rights movement is, in the view of many of the locals, almost as bad as abortion....but not quite. Anti gay sermons are quite common in the churches ( TV gets it's share of abuse from the pulpit as well ) and openly gay people ( residents or visitors ) are ignored at best and harrassed at worse. Again the religious beliefs of the orig residents are that homosexuality is "an abomination to the lord".

Do I agree with what Eric did....NO. Violence begats violence.

Do I believe that he had local help....you bet.

stumpy
04-11-2005, 17:42
Stoker, did you go to high school in Murphy?

weary
04-11-2005, 21:32
Stoker53: An interesting post. But how do they justify leaving a bomb in a public park during the Olympics to blow up totally innocent random people.

Or don't they care enough about the real world to even remember that happened?

Weary

Stoker53
04-12-2005, 05:43
Stumpy...No HS in Murphy. I did attend the 6th grade in Andrews. Moved to AZ the following year.


Weary...That's a good point. Most locals did not think that Rudolph was resp for the Olympic bombing. They believed that the FBI blamed ER as an after thought. Remember how the FBI botched the investigation of the security guard leaving them with no suspects? I too was skeptical since it did not seem to fit with the other bombings.....no religious implications.

I will ask this question, and more, next time I go visit.

stumpy
04-12-2005, 13:09
Ok. I have family that lives between Murphy and Andrews, and I thought that you may know them. :)

Stoker53
04-12-2005, 14:01
Stumpy...Heck if your family has been in the area while we're probably related. Email me if you like and we can figure out if our family trees overlap. OK w/you Cus?:cool:

halibut15
04-12-2005, 17:49
The Nantahala Mountains are very rugged. If you'd spent your life buishwacking the region, you'd have a serious leg-up on any trackers, regardless of technology used.
Anyone ever hiked in the Fires Creek or Snowbird Mtns. areas? The trails in those places are right next to the Murphy-Andrews area, and are VERY rugged and sometimes even non-existent. Totally different from the AT Nantahalas, as rugged as they may be, and between trails are vast areas of wilderness. Just about anyone with orienteering and wilderness skills could disappear forever, and if you could provide your own food, you could just about never be seen again. To quote Napoleon Dynamite, "You've gotta have skills...".

Pencil Pusher
04-13-2005, 08:14
'Skills'... and luck. For instance Brian Nichols who escaped some intense heat only to be caught later on by his personal conscience.

Jaybird
04-13-2005, 08:32
so, wonder how long ERIC RUDOLPH was hikin' the A.T.?

getting hand-outs from "trail angels" & kind-hearted, un-suspecting folks? :rolleyes:


he, no doubt, had help eluding the authorities.

Dances with Mice
04-13-2005, 10:31
Two little comment: When Rudie pulled his disappearance act he first appeared at the isolated house of a guy he knew who owned a health food store. Remember? I think Eric used to date the man's daughter or something. The store owner got the distinct impression that Eric had been spying on his house for a few days before Eric made contact. Anyway, Eric had a shopping list: vitamins, food supplements, organic soy protein concentrate, stuff like that, Yerba John would have approved. Then Eric vanished again. Probably watching the house from somewhere. Somewhere real near.

So a psycho bomber appears at your family's back door, hands you a grocery list, then vanishes. What would you do? The guy filled the order. I, uh, might have too.

While the store owner was gone Eric loaded the supplies into the man's truck, left a couple hundred dollar bills on the table, and drove off. The store owner waited a couple days to make sure Eric was really gone then phoned authorities. Eric abandoned the truck with a note about how to return the truck.

Eric paid for the food he took! And he returned borrowed stuff! A psychotic killer still had more integrity than any of my college room mates!

Anyway, five years or so later Eric was found living like vermin in the alley behind a Bi-Lo grocery. So either his tastes changed during that time or his standards got a lot lower: "I'm so tired of multi-vitamins and organic soy concentrate, think I'll go rustle up some stale bread and rotten cabbage instead." If any locals were helping Eric they were doing a very poor job! Eric's requisition and supply chain was seriously constricted.

But something Weary said is true: You can support someone by simply not reporting what you know or suspect. Eric had a price tag on his head, a million dollar reward. Not phoning the tip line about the guy you saw crossing a road a night, the camp you stumbled across while deer hunting, the little stuff missing from your house or cabin or garage, hunting clothes disappearing from clothes lines, all that is support too.

Caleb
04-13-2005, 20:43
Is mild profanity allowed on this board? I hope so cause there's no getting around use of the word 'chicken****' in a discussion about Rudolph. He was a dope grower/dealer and a bomber...both exceedlngly chicken**** endeavors IMO. And now it turns out (thank you again DWM), he didn't even have the guts or the style to tough it out and live off the land.

It's clear to me now that he lived in an utterly bankrupt moral vacuum and was chicken**** from end to end, not caring at all HOW he did things so long as he got what he wanted...be it food, money or attention for his so-called pro-life/family crusade. These are all the hallmarks of someone driven by an appalling lack of humanity and self respect, and not by some higher calling. His actions are best seen in terms of these deficiencies - his actions were pathetic cruel chicken**** efforts to acquire a set of set values where values were lacking.

I think the good folks of Murphy saw this, and was the big reason why he probably got very little help, if any at all. Sure they had fun with the bumpers stickers (maybe to help them counter-balance the presence of the FBI) but deep down they knew he wasn't one of theirs. Go to Hell Rudi.

Pencil Pusher
04-13-2005, 21:18
He's chickenshlt because he had the conviction to follow through with his beliefs, however altered they were?

zephyr1034
04-13-2005, 21:47
He's chickenshlt because he had the conviction to follow through with his beliefs, however altered they were?============================================= ================

So if you want to save babies, it's OK to kill adults? I doubt that anyone killed or injured by the bomb at the Olympics had anything to do with abortion. Last I heard, two wrongs don't make a right.

Don't like gays? Kill em too.

I think life imprisonment is better than death for this guy. He's an outdoor lover. All the outdoors he'll see for the rest of his life is the exercise yard.

I'm betting he had help. Hell, the people who had those bumper stickers were practically admitting it.

Pencil Pusher
04-13-2005, 22:16
...however altered they were? My issue wasn't two rights, rather 'chickenshlt'.

lumpy
04-13-2005, 23:45
Well, he won't be able to "live off the land" so to speak in prison. Gay basher? Any bets he'll be forced to drop the soap?:clap

Tha Wookie
04-13-2005, 23:53
He's chickenshlt because he had the conviction to follow through with his beliefs, however altered they were?
No, he's chicken**** because he killed, injured, and emotionally scarred many people because he was a footsoldier for so-called religious leaders who only care about power and supremecy. Just like the white house, they exploit zealous religious followers who don't know how to think for theirselves for a conquest of control. He's the waste of the animals that are in the farm run by owners who need slaves like Eric Rudolf.

He'll know what control is when his cell mates want to play house.

Somewhere in his years and years of it, he'll probably wish he had been aborted.

Tha Wookie
04-13-2005, 23:59
I just read my post above, and it sounds a little harsh. But I take nothing back.

Today he admitted that he tried to kill me. He was not far from the mark.

bartender
04-14-2005, 00:09
Well said Wookie, and would everyone stop calling this murdering fanatic by his first name like he's an old friend.

Caleb
04-14-2005, 00:12
He's chickenshlt because he had the conviction to follow through with his beliefs, however altered they were?
No, chicken**** because he didn't have the balls to assume the physical risk of placing himself in proximity to his victims. He killed indiscriminately because he was too chicken**** to do his dirty work up close and personal.

ed bell
04-14-2005, 00:29
No, chicken**** because he didn't have the balls to assume the physical risk of placing himself in proximity to his victims. He killed indiscriminately because he was too chicken**** to do his dirty work up close and personal.
Right on. Terrorism will never win.

jac
04-14-2005, 00:44
Another thing to remember about Rudolph staying 'disappeared'. Not many people were looking for him. The local cops did, and eventually caught him.
Initially, the FBI did, but let's remember John Ashcroft's first official act as attorney general was to call off the FBI agents searching for him.

Stoker53
04-14-2005, 07:17
No, he's chicken**** because he killed, injured, and emotionally scarred many people because he was a footsoldier for so-called religious leaders who only care about power and supremecy. Just like the white house, they exploit zealous religious followers who don't know how to think for theirselves for a conquest of control. He's the waste of the animals that are in the farm run by owners who need slaves like Eric Rudolf.

He'll know what control is when his cell mates want to play house.

Somewhere in his years and years of it, he'll probably wish he had been aborted.
Wookie....Do you have specific examples of the white house exploiting zealous religious followers or do you simply have distain for the politics of the hundreds of people who work there?

Pencil Pusher
04-14-2005, 08:56
No, chicken**** because he didn't have the balls to assume the physical risk of placing himself in proximity to his victims. He killed indiscriminately because he was too chicken**** to do his dirty work up close and personal.
So I guess this puts quite a few of our soldiers and pilots in the chickenshlt category, eh? Boy I tell you, those suicide bombers sure as heck aren't chickenshlt!

Speer Carrier
04-14-2005, 09:21
I heard that Rudolph will be going to the suermax prison where he will be isolated for 23 hours per day, and continually monitored the other hour, so I doubt that there will be any soap dropping.

Also, I heard a lady who called into a local radio talk show say that she encountered Ruldoplh in a laundromat in Murphy just after 9/11. She called the FBI with the information, but never heard back from them. So apparently, by 2001 he could move around in public with little difficulty.

Tim Rich
04-14-2005, 09:31
Originally Posted by Caleb
No, chicken**** because he didn't have the balls to assume the physical risk of placing himself in proximity to his victims. He killed indiscriminately because he was too chicken**** to do his dirty work up close and personal.


So I guess this puts quite a few of our soldiers and pilots in the chickenshlt category, eh? Boy I tell you, those suicide bombers sure as heck aren't chickenshlt!

So, PP, you think our soldiers kill indiscriminately and don't assume physical risk? You've apparently no clue how many of our soldiers have died because we refuse to kill indiscriminately. You're clearly ignorant as to the physical risks of each routine patrol.

Pencil Pusher
04-14-2005, 09:54
Originally Posted by Caleb
No, chicken**** because he didn't have the balls to assume the physical risk of placing himself in proximity to his victims. He killed indiscriminately because he was too chicken**** to do his dirty work up close and personal.



So, PP, you think our soldiers kill indiscriminately and don't assume physical risk? You've apparently no clue how many of our soldiers have died because we refuse to kill indiscriminately. You're clearly ignorant as to the physical risks of each routine patrol.
So Tim, our soldiers and pilots do their dirty work up close and personal? Do they place themselves in proximity to their victims? How exactly does 'routine patrol' factor in to someone on a ship pushing a button to launch a cruise missile, or for that matter, someone in an airplane pushing a button to drop a bomb or launch a missile? Taking your logic and putting words in your own mouth, you don't think anyone not on the ground is a soldier? So 'we' refuse to kill indiscriminately... how do land mines factor in to this equation? Nuclear bombs? Bad intel?

Tha Wookie
04-14-2005, 10:02
Wookie....Do you have specific examples of the white house exploiting zealous religious followers or do you simply have distain for the politics of the hundreds of people who work there?
Both. See "election 2004", War on Iraq, Shiavo, ect., ect.

SGT Rock
04-14-2005, 10:21
Yes, despite the High Tech ads, most of us soldiers still get in close.

Footslogger
04-14-2005, 10:30
...and then there was Somalia. May we never forget !!

'Slogger
(US ARMY Airborne - '68 - '71)

Stoker53
04-14-2005, 10:40
Both. See "election 2004", War on Iraq, Shiavo, ect., ect.

Registered voters elected the pres in 2004.

Are you saying that the Republican Party ( substitue White House if you like ) was the only party to attempt to excite and motivate their political base in an effort to get out the vote?

Initial support on the war on Iraq was broad based and resolutions authorizing going there were approved in both houses of congress. Is congress the "jzealous religious followers" you reference?

I'll concede the Shiavo point to you. Pres and Congress getting involved was shameful any clearly politically motivated.

See we agree on something.:D

Nightwalker
04-14-2005, 11:02
Another thing to remember about Rudolph staying 'disappeared'. Not many people were looking for him. The local cops did, and eventually caught him.
Initially, the FBI did, but let's remember John Ashcroft's first official act as attorney general was to call off the FBI agents searching for him.
That's a pretty interesting charge. Got anything to back that one up?

I'm definitely no Ashcroft fan; it jusy gets really interesting to hear everything that he gets blamed for. He musta been a pretty busy fellow, what with all the crimes he supposedly comitted in his first few days in office! :)

Tim Rich
04-14-2005, 11:03
So Tim, our soldiers and pilots do their dirty work up close and personal? Do they place themselves in proximity to their victims? How exactly does 'routine patrol' factor in to someone on a ship pushing a button to launch a cruise missile, or for that matter, someone in an airplane pushing a button to drop a bomb or launch a missile? Taking your logic and putting words in your own mouth, you don't think anyone not on the ground is a soldier? So 'we' refuse to kill indiscriminately... how do land mines factor in to this equation? Nuclear bombs? Bad intel?

Thanks for acknowledging that you're attempting to put words in my mouth. As Rock said, many are in close proximity, and the physical risk is great. The physical risk, though, is there for almost all. A man on point, in a supply convoy, the guy loading projectiles on a battleship, the guy working the deck on a carrier, and the pilot landing on the carrier. I'll grant you the risk may not be there from a command center in Tampa.

As to killing indiscriminately, you've apparently gotten it in your noggin that our military is evil and seeks to kill them all and let God sort them out. You're wrong - we've lost people in Iraq strictly because of our compassion for the noncombatants. Poor intelligence raises the risk to noncombatants and our soldiers alike, and is to be avoided. You're brainwashed, or ignorant of history, if you haven't the perspective as to what nuclear weaponry prevented during the Cold War. Mines are certainly nasty, but they've capably protected outnumbered U.S. soldiers, and placement determines the intended target (see Yugoslavia).

Stoker53
04-14-2005, 11:14
We hear it from the horse's mouth. This from Fox News:

ATLANTA — During a two-year series of bombings in the Deep South, Eric Rudolph (search (javascript:siteSearch('Eric Rudolph');)) considered himself a warrior — against abortion (search (javascript:siteSearch('abortion');)), which he calls murder, and a government that permits it.

A sometimes-rambling, sometimes-reflective 11-page manifesto released by Rudolph's attorneys Wednesday soon after he entered his last guilty plea in the bombings gave the most detailed look yet into the mind of the former Army explosives expert who killed two people and injured more than 120 others.

Rudolph pleaded guilty in federal court to the deadly 1996 Olympic park bombing (search (javascript:siteSearch('1996 Olympic park bombing');)) in Atlanta and attacks at two abortion clinics and a gay nightclub.

He was sentenced to four life sentences without parole, escaping the death penalty by telling authorities the whereabouts of hundreds of pounds of dynamite and other explosives he stashed while hiding in the North Carolina mountains for five years.

In the statement, Rudolph said stopping abortion — "this holocaust," he called it — was his main motive. Any agent of a government that allows it, he reasoned, is an enemy that deserves death.

He also apologized to his victims who don't work for the government or perform abortions, rejected virtually every theory about his motives laid out over the years, and spelled out the strategies, techniques and, ultimately, failures involved in his attacks.

Among the information: that the Olympic bombing was intended to be part of a weeklong campaign of explosions aimed at shutting down the games and embarrassing the U.S. government.

Rebutting claims that his anti-government views were shaped by racism, his family or involvement in the extreme fundamentalist Christian Identity movement, Rudolph called himself a Roman Catholic at war over abortion.

"Because I believe that abortion is murder, I also believe that force is justified ... in an attempt to stop it," he wrote, "whether these agents of the government are armed or otherwise they are legitimate targets in the war to end this holocaust."

In the Atlanta courtroom, he sat stone-faced and answered questions calmly and politely. But in Birmingham, he winked toward prosecutors as he entered court, said the government could "just barely" prove its case, and admitted his guilt with a hint of pride in his voice.

Emily Lyons, who lost an eye — and nearly her life — in the Birmingham clinic attack, wept and said she was almost physically ill as she watched in court from her front-row seat.

"He just sounded so proud of it. That's what really hurt," she said.

Rudolph showed no remorse for the death of Robert Sanderson, a security guard killed in the Birmingham blast that maimed Lyons. "Every employee is a knowing participant in this gruesome trade," he wrote.

But he apologized to "innocent civilians" and their families wounded in attacks like the Centennial Park bombing — an operation he said he botched.

Rudolph, 38, wrote that the purpose of the Olympic bombing "was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand."

He originally hoped to obtain high-grade explosives and knock out the power grid around Atlanta, ending the games. When that failed, he planned a series of five bombings over several days. He said he wanted to make phone calls well before each explosion, "leaving only uniformed arms-carrying government personnel exposed to potential injury."

The bomb that exploded at the Olympics was hidden in a knapsack and sent nails and screws ripping through a crowd at Centennial Olympic Park during a concert. Alice Hawthorne, 44, was killed and 111 other people were wounded in what proved to be Rudolph's most notorious attack.

Rudolph wrote that a 911 call meant to warn authorities about the bomb was cut short, possibly because a plastic device he used to disguise his voice made him hard to understand. He himself cut a second call short because he thought people standing near the phone booth he was using were becoming suspicious.

"I had sincerely hoped to achieve these objections (sic) without harming innocent civilians," he said. "There is no excuse for this, and I accept full responsibility for the consequences of using this dangerous tactic."

Rudolph also called homosexuality an "aberrant sexual behavior" and blasted what he called the government's acceptance of it. But he wrote that a pair of bombs planted at The Otherside Lounge, an Atlanta club that catered to a gay and lesbian clientele, targeted law enforcement, not the club's patrons.

In a postscript to his statement, Rudolph belittled, in sometimes mocking tones, theories that have swirled for years about his possible motives.

He denied any allegiance to the racist, anti-Semitic, anti-gay Christian Identity movement, saying he attended an Identity church for about six months in the early 1980s only because the father of a woman he was dating went there.

"I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one," he wrote.

He dismissed reports that he turned against the government when his father, suffering from cancer, sought an experimental drug not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And he admitted to growing a small amount of marijuana in the early '90s, but turned sarcastic about claims he was a major dealer.

"Yes, this is why I was living in a trailer paying $275 a month for rent," he wrote. "Big time drug dealer, that's me."

Deborah Rudolph, Rudolph's former sister-in-law whom he criticized in the statement, noted the irony of Rudolph's plea deal putting him in custody of a government he hates.

"Knowing that he's living under government control for the rest of his life, I think that's worse to him than death," she said from her home in Nashville, Tenn.

plodder
04-14-2005, 11:47
Time for this thread to go bye-bye... How's that new super-hot alky stove comin?

Just Jeff
04-14-2005, 12:13
Yes, despite the High Tech ads, most of us soldiers still get in close.
Even our pilots are still routinely getting shot at.

SGT Rock
04-14-2005, 13:08
Time for this thread to go bye-bye... How's that new super-hot alky stove comin?
I'm making the stoves so hot I'm melting the stove. The heat transfer is the problem now. Tinny had an idea to weld aluminum fins to the bottom of a greese pot to make the heat trasfer faster, I haven't looked into it yet. Right now I am building a large order of Ion Stoves. Got a couple of outfitters interested in them.

Sly
04-14-2005, 13:22
Right now I am building a large order of Ion Stoves.

Will they be available at Trail Days? Where abouts?

SGT Rock
04-14-2005, 13:27
I plan to make some to carry in case, but I ain't gonna sit in a booth all day to sell them. I'll be around and I may have some ready ;) I plan to make about 50 for Trail Days. I may even have an Atomic Fireball prototype ready to show off.

The Outfitters At Harpers Ferry will be there and will have them for sale. The other outfitter is an on-line only place, so I doubt it.

Sly
04-14-2005, 13:32
I plan to make some to carry in case, but I ain't gonna sit in a booth all day to sell them. I'll be around and I may have some ready ;) I plan to make about 50 for Trail Days.

The Outfitters At Harpers Ferry will be there and will have them for sale.

Great, I'll find you or get one from the Cootie Queen!

Pencil Pusher
04-14-2005, 20:59
Thanks for acknowledging that you're attempting to put words in my mouth. As Rock said, many are in close proximity, and the physical risk is great. The physical risk, though, is there for almost all. A man on point, in a supply convoy, the guy loading projectiles on a battleship, the guy working the deck on a carrier, and the pilot landing on the carrier. I'll grant you the risk may not be there from a command center in Tampa.

As to killing indiscriminately, you've apparently gotten it in your noggin that our military is evil and seeks to kill them all and let God sort them out. You're wrong - we've lost people in Iraq strictly because of our compassion for the noncombatants. Poor intelligence raises the risk to noncombatants and our soldiers alike, and is to be avoided. You're brainwashed, or ignorant of history, if you haven't the perspective as to what nuclear weaponry prevented during the Cold War. Mines are certainly nasty, but they've capably protected outnumbered U.S. soldiers, and placement determines the intended target (see Yugoslavia).
You'd do well to acknowledge the same, Tim. Gosh I think you'd make one helluva politician, you appeared to answer my questions but in reality you avoided them all! Good job! I am ignorant or brainwashed, lmao!:D

owl
04-14-2005, 21:30
Do You All Belevie That He Did It With Out Any Help?????????????????

One Leg
04-15-2005, 02:15
I'm probably getting into a debate that would be better left alone, but I'll proceed with extreme caution.

I am anti-abortion, therefore, am pro-life. In past years, I have partaken in "Silent Protests". I've not carried signs or placards; I merely stood there silently, a symbol that my parents chose life. You can be against something and not go to extremes like the people I list below.

Eric Rudolph, Michael Griffin, Paul Hill, Randall Terry, and people like them are not spokesmen for what I believe in. I believe abortion to be wrong just as I believe the aforementioned people to be wrong. You can't counter violence with violence. Neither category of people, in my opinion, are right. They are extremists who do not represent me or my views.

As a former public safety official, Eric Rudolph tried to kill me. Me, a person who is opposed to abortion, which is a view he claims to share. He timed that bomb to go off when myself and my fellow public safety officials responded to render aid. Nevermind the fact that some of these officials shared Rudolph's belief that abortion is wrong. He attempted to maim, injure, and kill people who shared his beliefs.

Do I allow my opposition of abortion stand in the way of clouding my good judgement? Do I allow my opposition of abortion stand in the way of providing medical treatment to someone who's obtained an abortion? Absolutely not.

For, just as I am opposed to abortion, there are those who are opposed to my opposition. And that's fine. I am adult enough & mature enough that people I associate with do not have to agree with me or my beliefs. I don't go around blasting someone with an opposing viewpoint, nor do I go around blowing up homes, businesses or people because I have a view(belief) that is different from their own.

We live in America, the land of the free. People with opposing viewpoints are free to share them, I'm free to share mine, and we can all be adult enough where we can disagree and still be friends. We don't go around blowing each other up in order to get our respective points across. Instead, we go out on the trail and enjoy our shared love of hiking.

Scott

SGT Rock
04-15-2005, 09:30
Good post Scott. It is people that allow themselves to consider another American as the enemy because they have an opposing viewpoint that creates gridlock in our political system and creates the hassles we see lately in our elections, and even to the point of violence to support one's cause. Whenever one of y'all start thinking of another person as "bad" because they disagree with you, it is falling into the same trap that leads to chicken-**** things like this happening. We are all Americans (well most of us) and all on the same side in the big scheme of things.

P.S.

To the Asians, Europeans, etc. Y'all are friends too ;)

Stoker53
04-15-2005, 13:05
P.S.

To the Asians, Europeans, etc. Y'all are friends too ;)
Rock....What about Canadians, Mexicans, Central and South Americans, Australians, Africans and the few scientists in Antarctica? Or are they the etc? Don't want you to start an international incident.

jac
04-15-2005, 13:53
Franklooper, I got that from CNN. I dunno if they have archives you can check. Yahoo news has archives, but I dunno if they go back far enough.

SGT Rock
04-15-2005, 13:55
As I understand it, anyone in South, North, or Central America are all really "Americans" just not the way most US citizens are used to hearing it used.

One Leg
04-15-2005, 14:25
As I understand it, anyone in South, North, or Central America are all really "Americans" just not the way most US citizens are used to hearing it used.


Does Alabama alphabet include letters D, U, I?

It's never too late to master your A-B-C's — unless you've just been pulled over by the police.

Orioles pitcher Eric DuBose has been charged with driving under the influence this week in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., the Baltimore Sun reported, after he blew a .113 on the blood-alcohol test.

But if that wasn't bad enough, the police report listed DuBose's alleged response when asked to do the A-B-C thing: "I'm from Alabama, and they have a different alphabet."

leeki pole
04-15-2005, 15:08
Does Alabama alphabet include letters D, U, I?

It's never too late to master your A-B-C's — unless you've just been pulled over by the police.

Orioles pitcher Eric DuBose has been charged with driving under the influence this week in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., the Baltimore Sun reported, after he blew a .113 on the blood-alcohol test.

But if that wasn't bad enough, the police report listed DuBose's alleged response when asked to do the A-B-C thing: "I'm from Alabama, and they have a different alphabet."
Too funny, Scott! Sure applies here in M_ss_ss_pp_! :jump

Just Jeff
04-15-2005, 16:34
It's never too late to master your A-B-C's — unless you've just been pulled over by the police.
Yeah, but then it's B-A-C, where BAC>GPA.