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C-Stepper
04-10-2005, 10:31
Hmmm...I haven't EVER had anything to rant about on the internet before, but a topic in another forum brought this up AGAIN, so I thought I'd ask "the experts". Damn, I'm sucking up, aren't I? :jump

FYI, I'm a 35 yo female hiker, so I feel qualified to bring this up.

I'm married to a great guy (we have 2 teenagers--previous marriage for me, if that makes any difference). I have been a day hiker and an athlete my entire life. I run for exercise, and I'll go any time, day or night, and always even run solo except once or twice a year, when I go to a nice destination race (not for competition).

Last year, I decided to go on my first long solo backpacking trip, in southern winter conditions. I believe that my kids are finally old enough to leave behind and not be too much trouble for my husband to handle alone. However, my husband ranted and raved, griped complained, discussed my will with me...finally, to shut him up, I carried a cell phone when I went on my 8-day excursion...which, funny thing, worked NOWHERE on the trail (really, it didn't, I'm not making that up).

But anyway, my point...

...why? I don't understand WHY a woman hiking solo is so different than a man hiking solo. Is it really, or is someone/something making us women feel this way?

I can take care of myself...I did it before my husband came along (single mom of two small kids with NO support for 6 years), I'll do it if he is ever gone. I'm a resourceful woman, smart, I can change my own oil and tires, fix the lawnmower and washing machine, tie knots, and repair gear. My husband's not around to do the chores I cannot do (because there aren't any) nor to protect me (I don't need protection).

Why is this question raised so often by women?

My main reason for hiking is solitude and reliance on myself. I've taken my daughter occasionally, and it was great, but I love my solo adventures more, for different reasons.

I don't think a woman is crazy for going alone...but, some would say my opinion doesn't count for much! :rolleyes:

neo
04-10-2005, 10:56
there is nothing wrong with a woman hiking solo,i think its great,i have several friends that are women that hike solo,i hike solo most of the time,i hike alone and camp alone,i love the solitude,happy trails to ya always:cool: neo

Panzer1
04-10-2005, 11:34
I think from a medical point of view it is probably safer for a young woman to hike solo that an older man, say over 50 years old, to hike solo.

Panzer

Blue Jay
04-10-2005, 12:04
Fear and logic don't often go together. Most of the time the most dangerous thing we do is drive, yet very few seem to be afraid to do it all the time. There are very few snake bites or bear attacks on the trail yet to many these are the things they are most afraid of when they hike. This is not to make light of fear, it's not an easy thing to control for anyone. You always have a choice, let your fear stop you from living or moving on in the face of it. We're all going to die, fear can make you die while you're still alive.

Kerosene
04-10-2005, 12:11
People who don't hike can't fathom going alone, regardless of gender. However, you still see the "weak female" mentality out there with people thinking that testosterone really makes any difference out in the woods (actually, it might be a drawback when it comes to encouraging risk). Just ignore it, and don't depend on any cell phone to help you out!

saimyoji
04-10-2005, 12:24
Since its your first time off away from him on the trail, alone, he probably feels something like this: concerned for your safety, powerless to help you (even though he knows you can take care of yourself, he would hate for something to happen when he's not around to help, like for a snakebite, or twisted ankle, or sunspot) and he's just not comfortable with the situation. Give him some time, do a few more solo hikes so he gets used to it, eventually I think he'll come around.

My wife was against camping out for a number of reasons. So we started small: a one nighter in a busy place with family around. That went well, so we tried a few times in slightly more remote places for longer periods of time. Now she's asking when we can get out in the middle of nowhere for a week or two.

If he's a reasonable man, I'm sure he'll come around.

Slaughter
04-10-2005, 12:35
I've found that some people are just going to worry, no matter what you do, but in my case repeated action helped. When people notice that

A. Their concern, while appreciated, isn't going to change your mind or your actions, and
B. you keep coming back alive

...then they tend to stop trying to convince you. Instead they just shake their heads and sigh. But that's better than being nagged about my safety, I think. And sometimes they realize they were being overprotective
At the same time try to appreciate the source of that concern; it's nice to be cared about. And I have also carried a cell phone before to placate others, knowing full well that it wouldn't do me any good. But a few ounces to make someone you love happy with what you're doing can be worth it.

And Blue Jay: "We're all going to die, fear can make you die while you're still alive."
Well said! :sun

Smile
04-10-2005, 12:46
Hiking alone isn't such a big deal, but society stats in general show that a woman is more vulnerable in violent situations (anyplace) than with another individual. Just common sense for any violent crime, although things do happen with groups of two - or 100 in some public setting as we've seen in the news the past few years.

Sounds to me like you have a husband who cares. He will be the one responsible for your kids if something happens to you.

You only have a few years left with your teenagers, every moment counts. Maybe you can wait to do a long hike, since you have Mom responsibilities at home - ever think that they may be worried too? Bet they are and don't say much, they are still your kids ;-)

Better yet, wait till school's out and take them with you!

food
04-10-2005, 12:58
Both my parents are gone now, but they worried about me all the time. I came to accept the worry as an act of love.

With teenagers I like to have the odds in my favor - 2 adults, 2 tenagers equals even odds. He will be outnumbered 2 to 1 when you are gone.

Fear of solo hiking is a logical expression of an irrational fear.

Did he know you hiked when you married? Maybe he fears that you are evolving without him. He feels abandoned.

It bothers my wife that I choose to sleep in the cold and wet rather than being by her side.

Fear for your safety is only the tip of the iceberg.

Smile
04-10-2005, 13:20
I'll have to disagree.
Concern is different from fear.

If anybody left me with two teenagers to go anywhere by themselves for say.....more than two weeks(regardless of gender) I'd be concerned too.

To assume that this is a problem with her husband is not founded.

If he is controlling, passive agressive and paranoid...them maybe - but not our business.

I'd guess that if she has made these arrangements, and is actually going hiking, she wears the pants in the family to begin with (?)

Hope it's a fun hike, will you be worrying or concerned about your teenage kids while you're gone?


:)

Chip
04-10-2005, 13:37
The #IS10, you have started a "good" thread ! You have actually brought up two issues in your question for an answer to one ! First, being a female solo hiker and secondly a solo hiker. Let me say up front that I am 50, male and in my younger day loved to hike alone. Several years ago on one of my solo hikes I found myself looking back and thinking about my scuba training. Odd in a way that I should be thinking about scuba while on a hike but I had a reason.

I was running low on drinking water and had several miles to go and no water source was to be found. The trail had not been maintained for some time and had alot of vegatation that had grown over the trail which made the going hard and at times I found myself off the trail. With map and compass handy I never got lost but still this extra effort made me start thinking !

When someone scuba dives you should have a dive buddy. There are many reasons for the sake of safety. A couple of those are: you are not alone should you run out of air, somehow get hurt or trapped under water. Someone knows where you are at what point or place of the the dive you are in at that time.

Now, relate that to hiking from a safety stand point. Basically the same applies. If you are hiking with someone you know, there is always some help next to you (hopefully they don't panic if needed). If you need some water, first aid, help with gear, etc... .

Granted, I got lucky and married 4 years ago to a woman who was in the Marine Corps for 7 years and is an avid hiker. So I don't solo hike much anymore. We also take our dogs with us sometimes on our section hikes or weekend outings.

I understand also where you are coming from in regards to being a solo female hiker. Over the years I have known several female hikers that could out hike, and had better outdoor knowledge than some of the male hikers on the trail !

It boils down to "your comfort zone" ! If you are ok with hiking solo and have
a good "back up" plan and someone knows what trail you are on = then OK !!
Only you know and feel what is right for you !

There are advantages to both solo and hiking with someone. Depends on what you want. I THINK GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Anyone at anytime can run into misfortune. The question is "if it does happen do you want to be alone at the time it does or would a "Buddy" be of help ? It all depends on how prepared you are to handle any given situtation, your survival skills. Are you trail smart ? do you have any first aid training ? can you use map and compass ? can you survive if you somehow lose you gear ?

Sorry for the long response, that's my 2 cents worth.
Happy Trails,
Chip ;)

TakeABreak
04-10-2005, 16:13
I hiked with a few women on my hike, and from I saw the biggest fear they had nad other women I have talked too, was the fear that a rapist would be hiding out waiting for them. After a while they realized, that, that fear (while it is a concern and ones guard should never be completely lowered) was mostly unfounded.

They told they found most of the guys on the trail to me gentlemen, and even sort of protective. The ladies I wwas hiking with, I let them sleep next to the wall in shelters and if the were people we did not know, my bed roll would be next so that a person would have to cross over to get to her. And they actually told they slept better that way.

I started my hike with several people and met others, the one lady I was with most of the way into virginia, her i met a few people and another who we became good friends with and together for several weeks. the shelter in the smokies were more crowded, so there, we let chose her sleeping space first and then we just put our bed rolls down on either side of her. She would even chose a spot that largest enough for three bed rolls and put hers down in the middle.

I guess what I am trying say concern and caution should always be there, but for either sex, but for women a little more so. Just do your hike and let your extinct be your guide. Remember, MOST men were brought up and taught to protect women, so 99.9% of the guys out there will be on your side.

Chip
04-10-2005, 16:57
Statistics have shown that you are probably going to run into the "criminal type" element at a trailhead or campsite / shelter within the first mile. This type of person wants to be able to "hit and run" regardless of the crime. This is where being "trail wise" comes in handy (just like being "street smart" in the city). You gotta use common sense. A good book to read is "Trail Safe" by Michael Bane.;)

Smile
04-10-2005, 19:30
EXCELLENT book!

You can always meet good folks to hook up with while hiking as well, always strength in numbers. Go girl!

Tha Wookie
04-10-2005, 19:58
Chip and Smile,

You both mentioned some stats that I'd like to see.

I do scientific writing, and if i use stats, i have to explain where they come from, and report the actual stat.

It's not that I doubt the conventional knowledlge behind your statements, but since you backed it up with the word "stat" I was just wondering where you got those from.

They would be interesting if they were real.

Bad Ass Turtle
04-10-2005, 20:40
The # is 10 --

Lots of us women are out there hiking "alone" on the AT. I use quotes there because, if you're hiking northbound and you're within the window of the seasons, there are few opportunities to truly be alone -- other than during the day when you are hiking. In 2001, when I did my thru hike, my husband (then my fiancee) was concerned as well and asked me to carry a cell phone, which I did. Like you, I had trouble with getting service, but was sometimes able to reach him. In 2003, when he did his thru-hike, we decided that he would not need to carry a cell phone. This year, I'm doing a section (Mass-VT), and I will not be carrying a cell phone.

Is there a chance your husband could come and hike a short section of the trail with you? Even just a couple of days would help him to see that there is a serious community out there, lots of people looking out for you.

And as women, I believe that we develop a very good sense of what is safe and what is not. Lots of women on the trail in 2001 told me stories about coming into shelters, only one person there (and he was a male) and how they read the situation to see if they should hike on, or if it was safe to stay. I hope that your husband will trust your "safety sense" -- but even better would be if he got to see how safe our second home (the AT) truly is.

BA Turtle

Chip
04-10-2005, 21:01
EXCELLENT book!

You can always meet good folks to hook up with while hiking as well, always strength in numbers. Go girl!
Yes, in my opinion this is a good book to read. The author also a diver talks about the "buddy" system while cave diving and how it relates to hiking. When I read this I was impressed to see that I was not alone in this thought. :-?

Nightwalker
04-10-2005, 22:21
Fear and logic don't often go together. Most of the time the most dangerous thing we do is drive, yet very few seem to be afraid to do it all the time. There are very few snake bites or bear attacks on the trail yet to many these are the things they are most afraid of when they hike. This is not to make light of fear, it's not an easy thing to control for anyone. You always have a choice, let your fear stop you from living or moving on in the face of it. We're all going to die, fear can make you die while you're still alive.
My dad tried to guilt me out of going on this year's AT hike with: "I'll lay awake at night worried about you out there alone having one of your migraine headaches. You'll be miles away from anywhere and anybody to get help." It went on downhill from there, and I'm a 45-year-old guy with many years of hiking and packing experience. As Blue Jay said, logic and fear don't go together.

I've met lots of strong, wonderful women out there. They're safe and having a great time. I really like how the guys in the same pack as an unavailable female turn into big/little brothers. No outsider would even think of being stupid enough to hassle the woman, unless they're pretty stupid in the first place.

Trail life is cool. I can't wait to get this stupid tooth out and get back out there where I belong..

Smile
04-10-2005, 23:23
I dive caverns, but cave's are a little hairy.

The cave diving perspective/analagies were wonderful....but if I were a non-diver, I would definately be heading away from this sport quickly once I read the book....hmmm, maybe he planned it that way! No need for people who might panic underwater in a dark cave with little air and the possibilities of stirring up the silt for everyone else to get caught up in!

BATurtle, good thoughts, and great advice. I do think women have the intiution thing down for the most part.

Stats?
http://www.rainn.org/statistics.html
http://www.brave.org/rape.htm
if you want more, you can do a search.....

Tha Wookie
04-11-2005, 00:43
Based on the info given to me from Smiles in her weblink (http://www.brave.org/rape.htm), it could be argued that the woman's chance of getting raped is LOWER on the AT than at home in a town. Observe:



"One in every four females will be sexually assaulted before age 18. In 76% of those cases, the assailant is someone known to the victim."

This case invloves a woman loder than 18. She is not likely to know other hikers before the trail.

"More than 50% of acquaintance rapes occurred on the man’s turf: home, car, or other. – Iowa Coalition Against Sexual Assault."

The trail is neutral turf.

"In attempted sexual assaults, approximately 50% of the women escape if they yell, and up to 85% escape if they physically resist quickly and vigorously."

Female thru-hikers can really knee somone with authority.

"84% of women who were raped knew the perpetrator. A woman’s risk of being raped by someone she knows is four times greater than being raped by a stranger."

This would not apply to strangers lurking in shelters and near trailheads.

"In 1994 females represented 23% of all known homicide victims in the United States."

So in that year, men were more than 300% to be murdered than women. No recent data was available.

"Women who fought back forcefully were more likely to avoid rape than women who did not fight back, regardless of whether a weapon was present. Forceful fighting resistance was related to increased physical injury when a weapon was present, but most physical injury was caused by non-lethal weapons. Women who screamed or fled when confronted with weapons experienced less severe sexual abuse. Increased physical injury was associated with pleading, crying, or reasoning indoors. Women who used drugs or alcohol experienced more severe sexual abuse and physical injury"

Not sure really what to make of this, but that fighting back and being outside seems to decrease the chances of a successful rape.

Unfortunately, like many stat pages found on the net, no information was given about the years of most of this stuff, where/how it was gathered, what the source is, who published/peer-reviewed it, and the web page is not a reputable source as far as I know (or they would give more info on their stats).

But they did gove some good advice to women, including:

"Deciding to walk alone at night is not an invitation to be assaulted."

No night hiking?

"Look assertive, confident, and aware of your surroundings."

I especially like the last part.

"Trust your intuition. If a particular situation makes you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, choose an alternative. Ask for help."

"Know vulnerable targets of the assailant: eyes, nose, throat, stomach, and kneecaps."

Don't forget blistered feet and shinsplints.

"More than half of all female sexual assault victims and nearly 75 percent of their male attackers were under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time of the incident."

That's a real good one, IMO for the trail.

"If a police officer shows up at your door, ask to see identification and a shield number; then call the precinct to verify the officer’s identity before opening the door."

Door?

"Never disclose information about travel plans."

Don't tell em where you're stealth camping all alone unless you trust them.

"don’t go on less traveled roads, driving or walking"

No road walking. This seriousy might mean other trails could be considered more dangerous, since the AT is the only big one with hardly any raodwalking.

"don’t hitchhike"

Not a bad one. Have a male companion if you do.

"walk on the curbside away from alleyways, or buildings"

Not a problem!

"vary walking routes"

Blue-blaze?

" If you see a TV program or movie that reinforces sexual stereotypes and sends the message that women really like to be raped, protest. Write to the station, the studio, or the sponsors. On the other side, publicly commend the media when they do a great job in depicting the realities of rape."

Great idea!

There is a lot of other stuff thereI recommend checking out. I would also look for a site from a more reputable source and cross-reference those stats.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist-->
















<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist-->

C-Stepper
04-11-2005, 08:15
FYI, my post was more to generate discussion as to why it is different for women than men to solo hike, not a diatribe on my marriage/family, as both are in order as much as a marriage/family can be (sorry, I may have been unclear to some readers. It was not my intention to indicate my husband is domineering or the like, as one poster sort of took it...Jim has actually made a valiant attempt to be very supportive of his very "not interested in normal girl stuff" wife and he is a great husband and dad...all other women should be jealous!).:cool: My husband's comments didn't instigate this post, as that happened many months back. What started me thinking about this issue was yet another woman posting on the backpacker forums that her FEMALE hiking friends scared her into posting a question about the safety of her hiking solo.

But, I've noticed that I've NEVER seen a man post something like "all my buddies think I'm crazy for going alone and that I need a partner" kinda thing. Because I don't see men posting the same "concerns", I don't really buy the buddy system thing, but I do think the buddy system has its place, depending on where and what season you are hiking. This issue may lead to another type of discussion, maybe not this one (for now).

Maybe both BA Turtle and I are weirdos not to be "scared"...but, with her at my side, and a name that includes the words "bad ass" I think we'll be OK!:bse

I'll have to look over the two links later...I'm at work and won't have a chance to read the articles for a couple of hours, but, from what Wookie wrote, there may be some good stuff there!

Hammock Hanger
04-11-2005, 08:19
I did my first solo hike on the AT as post rape "therapy". The rape had been in my younger days, in a busy part of town, and I wasn't alone. -- Years later when my husband and I would section hike and I would see a solo male it would really get me angered that HE could hike alone but I couldn't. My husband said I could if I wanted to but I said yeah if I wanted to be in constant fear of rape. In reality it was just the fear and anger from having been rape coming out.

So, one brave year I just decided to deal with the issue and go, solo. I had the time of my life. Unfortunately the down side to that was, an addict was born and my husband lost a hiking partner as I move on to another level of long distance hiking without him.

Does he worry about me, of course. He knows, however, that I use good judgement. Does he miss me, terribly and I him. Just because we are married does not mean we have to do everything together. He has the "Grateful Dead" and I have the "AT".

As for men on the trail... I now have numerous Big Brothers. Ninety nine percent of the guys I met out on the trail were just great, super great actually. Since my rape I had had very low respect for the male population over all. I thought that their brains were located midway between the head and the feet!:o After hiking I found that men really aren't so bad and I shouldn't be judging the whole lot by the bad actions of a few.

So hike solo, use common sense, hope your husband will understand. (BTW, like BAT said take him out on the trail with you so he can see you in your element and maybe he will understand more. My husband use to hike with me a lot so he knows I know my stuff out there, it gives him a comfort level.)

Just some ramblings from me.... SUe/Hammock Hanger

digger51
04-11-2005, 08:36
It seems to me there are two parts to the issue brought up here. First, is hiking alone safe and second, why the difference in standards based on gender. As for the first, I always hike alone for three reasons: I enjoy the solitude of not having to talk all day, no one can put up with my personality for long stretches, and after a few days hiking no one can put up with my odor very long. As for the gender issue, I would think that is fairly obvious. There are many things a woman cant do at the same level as a man. A woman cant seem to hit the toilet seat while a man will splatter it with great skill. When a woman cant find her way alone in a car she will do things like ask directions or check a map while a man will keep going and eventually hope to get there. These are just a couple of examples. Is it any wonder that us big strong guys feel the need to watch after and protect those poor defenseless ladies? On a serious note, even at my advanced years my kids still insist I check in whenever I reach a town and that I carry a cell phone. I have encountered some strange folks on the trail and once or twice moved on because I wasnt certain of the mental stability of someone. I have heard stories from other hikers about scary rides to town and some where the ride offers were declined because of the looks of the driver. You never know whats out there, and regardless of gender, sometimes its good to have a hiking buddy.

YerbaJon
04-11-2005, 11:41
Ok, ready your wit and threats of retribution as I tell you what you do not want to hear:
As a culture we care more about women as victims than we do about men as victims. I am not just claiming this, rather peer reviewed research bears this out. Here is the best short proof:

A study of the 7 major leading Canadian newspapers' front pages (over 7,000 front pages analyzed) found that women were reported to be the vicitims of crime at a rate of 21 to 1 for each man. This study was replicated in Israel and the same conclusion was reached: women are more likely to be reported as victims of violent crime even though men are 3 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime.
A pleathora of studies since 1975 have continued to contradict our cultural viewpoint that women are the ones who are in the greatest danger:

<!--StartFragment -->When the first scientific nationwide sample was conducted in 1975 — by Suzanne Steinmetz, Murray Straus and Richard Gelles<SUP class=Superscript> 11 (http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-2.htm#f11)</SUP> the researchers could hardly believe their results. The sexes appeared to batter each other about equally. Dozens of questions arose ("Don't women batter only in self-defense?"; "Aren't women hurt more?"). Over a hundred researchers during the next quarter century double-checked via their own studies. About half of these researchers were women, and most of the women who were academics were feminists. Most expected to disprove the Steinmetz, Straus, and Gelles findings.
To their credit, despite their assumptions that men were the abusers, every domestic violence survey done of both sexes over the next quarter century in the U.S. Canada, England, New Zealand and Australia — more than 50 of which are annotated in the Appendix — found one of two things: Women and men batter each other about equally, or women batter men more. In addition, almost all studies found women were more likely to initiate violence, and much more likely to inflict the severe violence. Women themselves acknowledged they are more likely to be violent and to be the initiators of violence. Finally, women were more likely to engage in severe violence that was not reciprocated. The larger and better-designed the study, the more likely the finding that women were significantly more violent.
Beyond human dangers, keep in mind that men are more likely to be attacked by bears (over twice as likely in parks where both men and women frequent in like numbers).

There are many books which attempt to explain the discrepancies between the cultural focus on females as victims and the reality that men are the greater number of victims. I am going to end this challenging post with a statistic that will force one to consider how deep this bias goes; this is something that was explained to me in a woman's studies class that blew my mind when I first heard it. It attacked my own prejudice against men. I share this with you in the interest of creating discussion.
First, I am going to tell you that more men are raped each year in the US than are women. Your gut reaction is, "no, that can not be true." Turns out that it is.

<!--StartFragment --> In fact, in the USA, there are far more male rapes every day in prisons alone than there are rapes of all females in the USA.
In class when this was pointed out someone said, "yea, but they are in prison, so that is not the same." To which the female professor asked of the questioner, "so, you justify rape in certain contexts?".

I don't care who you are, violence is something to fear and something that should not be justified. As a women, keep in mind that you are much less likely to be a victim of a violent crime than is a man. I am prepared to defend this position and expect it to be attacked: the bias to ignore men as victims is deep and the bias is well documented. I suggest for further readings to check out Christina Hoff Sommers, Who Stole Feminism?
-----
Ready, aim, return fire!

Mags
04-11-2005, 12:20
But, I've noticed that I've NEVER seen a man post something like "all my buddies think I'm crazy for going alone and that I need a partner" kinda thing.


You are right...I personally have never posted a "my buddies think I am crazy for going alone". However, I have posted many, many times "My family thinks I am crazy for going alone"... (esp. this tiny, 5 foot tall woman I call "Mom" :D)


Yes, the concerns do seem a bit more pronounced for women going solo in terms of family/friends reaction.

But going solo in the woods is not something most people are comforable doing. So our friends and family tends to project their fears upon us. Your not taking a gun?!??! You are going alone?!?!? What..no cell phone??!?

They would never do it...so YOU should be scared.

Male, female. Young, old. Something in our society conisders the solo quest to be scary. There be dragons...better bring a cell phone.

At this point in my hiking "career", you'd think my family (and to lesser extent friends) would not worry about me going solo. Nope... every time I lace up those shoes and throw on the pack for a solo adventure the instinct kicks in. "There be dragons...are you going to be OK?"

YerbaJon
04-11-2005, 12:39
Male, female. Young, old. Something in our society conisders the solo quest to be scary. There be dragons...better bring a cell phone.
Mags, you hit it well. You remind me that whatever our gender, we all share a similar statistical risk of injury or violence. We naturally fear the unknown, and the woods is in a way the unknown; especially unknown to our family and friends who hear about our adventures.

Does anyone have the statistics for bodily injuries on the trail? My intuition tells me that our greatest fear should be that we slip and twist an ankle; we may be our own greatest risk? Also, does anyone have any statistics about towns and violence rates in the small towns around the trail (our resupply points) versus the violence rates on the trail. Could the biggest danger be in leaving the trail? I have read a lot of anecdotal evidence suggesting that the danger is in the culture we live in, not the culture that exists on the trail. Danger lurks everywhere, it is clearly not unique to the trail. Still, does anyone know of a good source for the claim that the trail is less dangerous than almost anywhere else?

Smile
04-11-2005, 13:50
Maybe both BA Turtle and I are weirdos not to be "scared"...but, with her at my side, and a name that includes the words "bad ass" I think we'll be OK!:bse

Thanks for clarifying, I may have misunderstood :o If I did, sorry about that! As for the quote above....you wouldn't be alone then would you :p

You'll be fine, and have a great time!
The Wookie - yes! you are right, it is a much smaller risk on the AT for a woman out there.

I guess if you are questioning this at all, there is some doubt in your mind somewhere, but the only way to know for sure is to hike the hike, and let everyone deal with it as they will. Nothing more you can do once you take that first step into the woods.........

minnesotasmith
04-11-2005, 14:21
1) YerbaJon, that was one of the best posts I've seen you make on WB. I would only add to your post that most marital physical abuse occurs in mutually abusive relationships, that women make greater use of surprise and weapons than do men, and that women are far more likely to get others to attack men than the reverse (by misleading cops into assaulting men, hiring legbreakers and hitmen, even siccing relatives on men). Also, homosexual relationships average multiples as violent as heterosexual relationships.

2) HH, whenever I encounter a woman who says any version of "men are all the same" or the like, I like to point out to them that we men differ from each other as much as individual women do from each other. When you hear of a woman committing a crazy, dumb, or evil act, and think with certainily "I would never do that", well, so it is with the vast, vast majority of men, when they hear of a man doing such things.

YerbaJon
04-11-2005, 15:18
Also, homosexual relationships average multiples as violent as heterosexual relationships.
Minor clarification: Male homosexual relationships have the least number of violence, heterosexual relationships slightly more violent, and the most violent relationships are seen in female homosexual relationships. Studies of abuse in homosexual relationships provide some of the strongest evidence for the claim that women are more likely to become physical in relationships.

However, I would like to add that the differences between the above three groups is not significant. I would like to add a few pieces of data that best summizes the problem and explain why it is hard to show a significant difference in violance potential of either gender.....

From what I recall in womans studies classes, there are only 0.04% of women who commit repetative violent acts against others. By a landslide, the majority of women do not have a "problem" with commiting violent acts. For this reason, one can trust almost all women to be reasonable.
On the flip side of this, there are only 0.08% of men who commit repetative volent acts against others. By a landslide, the majority of men do not have a "problem" with commiting violent acts. For this reason, one can trust almost all men to be reasonable.
Of all the violent acts commited, men are 3 times more likely to be the victim.

Minnesotasmith: I am glad you found value in my post. Personally, I think my other posts show more wit and clarity.

So, here is some wit to add to this one:
"There is a gender war, problem is that only women showed up."

The Cheat
04-11-2005, 15:20
But, I've noticed that I've NEVER seen a man post something like "all my buddies think I'm crazy for going alone and that I need a partner" kinda thing. Don't know their gender, but a quick search came up with these:

http://www.trailforums.net/index2.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=5045&Thread=1&roomID=9&entryID=41262

http://www.trailforums.net/index2.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3863&Thread=14&roomID=7&entryID=31892

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6015&highlight=solo

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4738&highlight=solo

Lilred
04-11-2005, 16:52
What started me thinking about this issue was yet another woman posting on the backpacker forums that her FEMALE hiking friends scared her into posting a question about the safety of her hiking solo.


The first time I ever put a backpack on my back and went into the woods was Nov. '03. Hit the AT with Rain Man, but he hiked too fast for me so I finished the 7 day trip by myself. It never crossed my mind to be scared. I was cautious, especially towards injury, but I never considered that I would be raped or mauled by a bear. I was quite taken aback when I returned and everyone kept asking, "weren't you scared?" After a while, I started thinking, gosh, should I be scared? I love hiking solo and continue to do so. Of course, I've learned to always refer to myself as 'we' when talking on the trail, just in case.

YerbaJon
04-11-2005, 17:01
I've learned to always refer to myself as 'we' when talking on the trail, just in case.
Great idea; fundamentals.

I am thinking of adopting this and modifying it a bit to refer to my wife and I as "part of a larger group".
Us? Alone? Just for a bit, we are waiting on the rest of our group to catch up; were part of a Forest Ranger's reunion...

Hammock Hanger
04-11-2005, 17:01
2) HH, whenever I encounter a woman who says any version of "men are all the same" or the like, I like to point out to them that we men differ from each other as much as individual women do from each other. When you hear of a woman committing a crazy, dumb, or evil act, and think with certainily "I would never do that", well, so it is with the vast, vast majority of men, when they hear of a man doing such things.
Minnasotasmith: I agree that "stereo typing" of any kind is wrong. I also agree that we are all different. I no longer have such a "dislike" for the male population as a whole. When I did you must realize it was trauma induced.

HH

YerbaJon
04-11-2005, 17:18
I no longer have such a "dislike" for the male population as a whole. When I did you must realize it was trauma induced.
Word! When we are wronged in any way then we are changed by it; often we have fear of things we did not have a fear of before. I can only imagine that when trauma is involved in the equation that the fears explode to an astronomical level. As a counselor, I see everday how traumatic events percalate into all aspects of a persons life; even on a hike the memory of trauma influences the thoughts that go thru the mind.

I think it is reasonable to consider ways in which we can lessen lives risks. My hope is that the trail is the safest place with the least amount of risks. Could it be the best place left in the US to avoid risk of violent crime; no safer place to live?
To that end, I repeat the following questions:

Does anyone have the statistics for bodily injuries on the trail?
Also, does anyone have any statistics about towns and violence rates in the small towns around the trail (our resupply points) versus the violence rates on the trail?
Does anyone know of a good source for the claim that the trail is less dangerous than almost anywhere else?

Nightwalker
04-11-2005, 17:34
Trail life is cool. I can't wait to get this stupid tooth out and get back out there where I belong..
Tooth is out. I'm a bit sick, but a lot better than yesterday when I was hurting so bad. :)

Rain Man
04-11-2005, 23:04
"More than half of all female sexual assault victims and nearly 75 percent of their male attackers were under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time of the incident."

Why does this statistic not surprise me?!! If women stay away from alcohol and from males with beer and other alchoholic "beverages," they've eliminated over three-quarters of their potential attackers right there? Worth thinking about?

Rain Man

.

tlbj6142
04-12-2005, 09:25
If women stay away from alcohol and from males with beer and other alchoholic "beverages," they've eliminated over three-quarters of their potential attackers right there? Worth thinking about?Dude! You can't have fun unless you are drinking. Everyone knows that.

Mags
04-12-2005, 10:36
Mags, you hit it well. You remind me that whatever our gender, we all share a similar statistical risk of injury or violence. We naturally fear the unknown, and the woods is in a way the unknown; especially unknown to our family and friends who hear about our adventures.



Yep. Our family and friends project their fears upon us. That is why so many people caution us to go solo in the woods. Our family and friends are afraid. Why aren't we?

I've been on solo thru-hikes of the LT(x2),AT,PCT and Colo Trail. The family still gets nervous when I talk about a weekend backpacking trip...never mind the CDT. :)

SGT Rock
04-12-2005, 11:03
Everyone still asks me about bears, snakes, and hillbillies when the truth is the biggest danger is hypothermia. Of course they worry about it double with the so-called helpless females. We do get at least one question from a new woman hiker every year worried about her safety.

Mags
04-12-2005, 11:12
[QUOTE=SGT Rock. Of course they worry about it double with the so-called helpless females.[/QUOTE]


"so-called helpless" indeed.

Many of the most accomplished people in the outdoors are women. A friend of mine is making plans to do her first 8000m peak. Wish I was so "helpless". :D

Hammock Hanger
04-12-2005, 11:27
Why does this statistic not surprise me?!! If women stay away from alcohol and from males with beer and other alchoholic "beverages," they've eliminated over three-quarters of their potential attackers right there? Worth thinking about?

Rain Man

.
alcohol is NOT always involved. Sue/HH

Chip
04-12-2005, 15:06
Everyone still asks me about bears, snakes, and hillbillies when the truth is the biggest danger is hypothermia. Of course they worry about it double with the so-called helpless females. We do get at least one question from a new woman hiker every year worried about her safety.
HYPOTHERMIA !! Right On Rock !!! Alot of hikers forget all about this one!

Found www.booktrail.com (http://www.booktrail.com) for those who like to read. Looks like there might be some good ones on the list?

I still say it depends on the person not the "gender" and the outdoor skills and common sense one has.

Chip :)

SGT Rock
04-12-2005, 15:12
I just read a book, I think it was called "Lost" or something along those lines. It was by a guy that had about 27 years working as a backcountry ranger in GSMNP and as a tracker looking for lost people. The biggest killer of hikers in his book was hypothermia.

Chip
04-12-2005, 15:33
I just read a book, I think it was called "Lost" or something along those lines. It was by a guy that had about 27 years working as a backcountry ranger in GSMNP and as a tracker looking for lost people. The biggest killer of hikers in his book was hypothermia.
I too read that book a couple of months ago. You have the title right. As I was reading the stories I could relate to areas and trails in the Smokies. I have been on those trails in heavy snow storms with high winds and almost total white-out conditions. On the otherhand I've been on the AT in heavy rain, high winds (40s) with temperatures near 50, soaking wet and almost froze my *** off until I could get dry clothes on and get something hot to drink. That ole hypothermia can be sneaky!!:D

bronzie5
04-12-2005, 16:05
I for one thing think that anyone hiking solo is more likely to be attacked than hiking with a partner-male/female really doesn't play a role in it in my opinion.

But I also remember one of my favorite movies "Deliverance" where there are four guys in group and they are still attacked. This was just bad timing but low and behold Burt Reynolds saves the day.

I recommend letting people know where you will be at and enjoy the outdoors... because you are more likely to be killed in the city than in the country.

Mini-Mosey
04-12-2005, 16:46
Sue(HH): Thanks so much for sharing such a personal matter. I really respect and am inspired by your confrontation of your fears.

As for solo....quite a few(if not most)of the murders on the AT (that I know of anyway)happened to pairs, not someone hiking solo. This is just a point I'm expressing, not to provoke more worry.

saimyoji
04-12-2005, 19:22
I just read a book, I think it was called "Lost" or something along those lines. It was by a guy that had about 27 years working as a backcountry ranger in GSMNP and as a tracker looking for lost people. The biggest killer of hikers in his book was hypothermia.
Rock, Could you provide us with the author, publisher, other info to find it?

Thanks

Chip
04-12-2005, 22:29
Rock, Could you provide us with the author, publisher, other info to find it?

Thanks
saimyoji,

"Lost"! A Ranger's Journal of Search and Rescue, by Dwight McCarter.

Go to www.Smokiesstore.org (http://www.Smokiesstore.org) item number 400182.

Happy Trails,
Chip;)

saimyoji
04-12-2005, 22:41
Thank you! :clap

C-Stepper
04-13-2005, 13:40
Missed most of the discussion (after I posted Monday morning on the first page, I had to pick my son up from school because he wasn't feeling well. After mother's intuition kicked in due to something odd I picked up on, I spent the afternoon carting him around to various doctors, which evolved into a diagnosis (finally). He had an appendectomy late Monday night/Tuesday morning! Whew, it's been SOME week so far! He's fine, fyi...and asleep, so I can peek in here for a few minutes!).

I'm very glad to know that it is OK for me to not be scared on the trail (which I suspected all along!), and I'm glad to hear from both men and women in the discussion. I haven't hiked the AT yet, but I've hiked the Foothills Trail in SC (roughly half of it) and Uwharrie National Forest in NC several times, all solo except one weekender trip with one of my kids. I've not been scared, nor uncomfortable on the trail, but as my experience grows I'm sure an opportunity will present itself.

Several of you are correct, that the bigger problem is the fears that others have FOR us.

Franklooper, I hope you heal quickly...I can't imagine your frustration right now, but you'll REALLY appreciate the trail that much more when you get back there!

Hammock Hanger (Sue) thanks for sharing your story. You are an incredible woman...I've read your journals, and I hope to meet you in person one day on the trail.

Chip
04-13-2005, 19:31
The#IS10,

Glad to read that your son is doing better! Sounds like you have had a very busy week. If you like to read up on averting unwanted or threatening human behavior on the trail, you might want to read "Trail Safe' by Michael Bane. There are also alot of good survival books out there but one of my favorites is "98.6 degrees" by Cody Lundin. Both books cover some good points regarding self reliance in the back country, the first book with other people on the trail & the second with your own survival skills. Solo hiking is fun !!! Ole scout motto "Be Prepared".

Happy Trails,
Chip:)

C-Stepper
04-14-2005, 07:59
Thanks Chip...I'll check into both books.

Ridge
04-17-2005, 01:13
... I don't understand WHY a woman hiking solo is so different than a man hiking solo. Is it really, or is someone/something making us women feel this way?... :rolleyes:
I've been hiking solo for many years, during many of my trips I've shared a camp or just hiked along with someone. I much prefer to hike/camp with someone I'm friends with. It's so much nicer. It doesn't matter if you are male or female, always camp away from major trail/road intersections, much safer in deep woods. Every solo hiker takes a chance at injury or sickness, I guess a cell phone comes in handy. I always have the local ranger station and law officials numbers, 911 doesn't always work. Anyway, I'll be interested in learning about your future section hikes. good luck.

Jester2000
04-25-2005, 19:13
"Most people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost -- more for support than illumination."

Most of my friends back home don't understand how I could possibly feel secure when I am alone on a hike, without a cell phone and (and this comes up an awful lot) without a gun.

I think even knowing someone who does so makes them uncomfortable, and not out of fear for my safety. I think many of them enjoy the cocoon of society that gives them a false sense of security, that makes them believe that because they are seconds away from contacting someone for help that they will always be safe from harm.

There have been a couple of times that I have put myself (accidentally) in dangerous situations (including hypothermia -- thanks for the save, Jack!), and a few where a hinky feeling made me shy away from people that (perhaps) may have been bad news. And I feel that regardless of gender, nothing beats experience for making you safer. So get out there more, not less, man or woman.

Tha Wookie
04-25-2005, 20:28
"Most people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost -- more for support than illumination."

Most of my friends back home don't understand how I could possibly feel secure when I am alone on a hike, without a cell phone and (and this comes up an awful lot) without a gun.

I think even knowing someone who does so makes them uncomfortable, and not out of fear for my safety. I think many of them enjoy the cocoon of society that gives them a false sense of security, that makes them believe that because they are seconds away from contacting someone for help that they will always be safe from harm.

There have been a couple of times that I have put myself (accidentally) in dangerous situations (including hypothermia -- thanks for the save, Jack!), and a few where a hinky feeling made me shy away from people that (perhaps) may have been bad news. And I feel that regardless of gender, nothing beats experience for making you safer. So get out there more, not less, man or woman.
Right on, I totally agree.

I wanted to add a good stats quote:

"Statistics remind me of the guy who drowned in 5 inches of water."
-Knute Rockne

Ridge
04-26-2005, 02:10
I guess a cell phone comes in handy. I always have the local ranger station and law officials numbers, 911 doesn't always work.
My hubby, who is currently somewhere on the PCT(without a cell ph), does not like cell's on the Trail, however he says if the security of having one will get you on the trail, then carry one, just be SOLO when/if you use it. He carrys one when day or section hiking and has used his several times in critical emergency situations. He did not use one on his AT thru-hike. He does, however, use Sam'sClub calling cards. hikerwife