View Full Version : Recommendation on four night trip in White Mtns/Prezzies
hoyawolf
06-18-2012, 14:23
Going to walk from Crawford Gap north over Mt Washington. However, only have 4.5 days. What is the best four day itinerary which returns to Crawford or should we just go to Gorham? I have never hiked this part of the AT but the three of us are very strong hikers.
Slo-go'en
06-18-2012, 15:25
There is no way to loop around back to Crawford in 4 days. It will take all of the 4 days to go from Crawford to Pinkham Notch.
The usual itinerary would be:
Day 1: Crawford to Mizpa Hut or Newman tent site
Day2: Mizpa to Lake of Clouds hut
Day3: Lake of the Clouds to Madison hut or Valleyway tent site (note, tent site is 1/2 mile and 700 foot loss of elevation down of side of ridge. There are also several RMC camps near-by, but also a goodly ways off the AT and loss of elevation)
Day4: Madison to Pickham notch.
This entire streach of trail is pretty much above tree line, where camping is not allowed. You can only stay at the few AMC run tent sites or huts. Huts require reservations and cost on average of $90 per person, per night. It is nearly impossible to avoid a stay at Lake of the Clouds. Tent sites tend to fill up quickly so you have to get there early to get a spot. Weekends are impossible. If they are full, you have to hike on, even if the weather is rotten and it is after dark. The problem is, there is no where else to go, so you have to head back down to the bottom of the valley. Any trail off the ridge line is exceptionally steep and rocky.
Be sure to plan carefully and get your reservations at the huts. It is expensive, but makes the trip practical and much easier, since you only need to carry some clothes and lunch, not a full pack.
There is no way to loop around back to Crawford in 4 days. It will take all of the 4 days to go from Crawford to Pinkham Notch.
The usual itinerary would be:
Day 1: Crawford to Mizpa Hut or Newman tent site
Day2: Mizpa to Lake of Clouds hut
Day3: Lake of the Clouds to Madison hut or Valleyway tent site (note, tent site is 1/2 mile and 700 foot loss of elevation down of side of ridge. There are also several RMC camps near-by, but also a goodly ways off the AT and loss of elevation)
Day4: Madison to Pickham notch.
This entire streach of trail is pretty much above tree line, where camping is not allowed. You can only stay at the few AMC run tent sites or huts. Huts require reservations and cost on average of $90 per person, per night. It is nearly impossible to avoid a stay at Lake of the Clouds. Tent sites tend to fill up quickly so you have to get there early to get a spot. Weekends are impossible. If they are full, you have to hike on, even if the weather is rotten and it is after dark. The problem is, there is no where else to go, so you have to head back down to the bottom of the valley. Any trail off the ridge line is exceptionally steep and rocky.
Be sure to plan carefully and get your reservations at the huts. It is expensive, but makes the trip practical and much easier, since you only need to carry some clothes and lunch, not a full pack.
i did crawford to pinkham in one overnight at lakes of the clouds...
(cue all the usual nonsense about smelling roses and how its unsafe to try and do big miles cold.)
people hike the entire range as one massively crazy dayhike. i wouldnt do it, but it can be done. i'll admit 2 days was less than leisurely, but 4, to me, would seem to be stretching it needlessly. that said i'd never loop back around, just take the shuttle bus.
Going to walk from Crawford Gap north over Mt Washington. However, only have 4.5 days. What is the best four day itinerary which returns to Crawford or should we just go to Gorham? I have never hiked this part of the AT but the three of us are very strong hikers.
I agree with tdoczi, depending on how strong a hiker you are. Hike day 1 to Lakes of the Clouds hut - you have a better chance of getting a reservation there if you go from Monday through Wednesday and not on a holiday. Day 2, hike to Madison Spring Hut or, if you're particularly strong, past Mt. Madison to Osgood Tentsite if you have a tent - alternatively, you could book a stay at Pinkham Notch in an AMC Cabin there. Personally, I'd recommend an excursion off the A.T. from Washington summit if time permits to explore the Alpine Garden - down via Tuckerman Ravine Trail to Lion Head Trail then to Alpine Garden Trail to Nelson Crag, then cutting over to A.T. (Gulfside Trail) and northward. Beautiful views, near and far on this route, so I read and can partially attest from experience.
Day 3, work your way over to the Carter-Moriah Range, depending on how much time you have. The must-hike parts over there are Mt. Hight - a subpeak of Carter Dome - the Dome itself, Carter Notch and the Wildcats. If you go up the Wildcats, do your legs, ankles and knees a favor and descend via the ski trails - I think the Polecat is the one most people do. From the base of Wildcat you can walk the mile up to Pinkham Notch Visitor Center, from which you can catch shuttles to Crawford, etc. DON'T descend the A.T./Wildcat Ridge Trail down to Rt. 16 and Pinkam Notch unless you are truly very strong, skilled and confident.
If you're going to do this trip, good luck and enjoy. Absolutely buy, at least, the AMC White Mountain Guide. Its descriptions and maps are priceless to the hiker of the Whites, especially the Presi's.
hikerboy57
06-18-2012, 19:07
go to www.outdoors.org (http://www.outdoors.org) for info on the huts
jakedatc
06-19-2012, 09:20
. DON'T descend the A.T./Wildcat Ridge Trail down to Rt. 16 and Pinkam Notch unless you are truly very strong, skilled and confident..
I am not sure what part was all that scary or sketchy? It is a steep downhill but it's nothing to be afraid of. Coming down the S side of Moriah will probably be more difficult but still not the end of the world.
for 4.5 days you could possibly do Presi in a day and the Pemi loop and tick off a ton of 4k's and see some of the best parts of the whites. wildcat and carters is a 1.5 day trip if you are in shape.
jakedatc
06-19-2012, 09:37
Plus you've only done a few 4k's and i don't think it included the Wildcats so what are you basing that on?? I think you need a lot more experience in the Whites before giving advice on what people should and shouldn't do. Your methods are not that common. your pack weight/size is too much and you admittedly hike slow
I based the advice on Wildcat on having read a lot of others' trip accounts and trail descriptions and review of a lot of photos. Particularly, I know that a lot of thru-hikers call that stretch one of the hardest on the whole A.T., and the authors of The 4000-Footers of the White Mountains, in their description of the Wildcat Ridge Trail, refer to the section in question as an "exceptionally steep, rocky, rugged climb," further discussing a "fairly challenging scramble up through chimney ... with dropoff on L" and a "rocky, winding climb (with wooden pin steps and cut steps in places) to very steep, windswept ledge area."
The OP here doesn't give a ton of info, so any advice to her or him is highly speculative, at best, with the commonality being the terrain and the conditions. Say what you like about me, Jake, but I'd much rather go UP that section that down it. Given that the OP wants to traverse the Presi's and has four days, my goal was to give an itinerary that has a good chance of working for a strong reasonably fit hiker - such as myself - though not a highly skilled one such as yourself. Safe to presume the skill level of a Chris from Connecticut, knowing no more than the OP shared, than to assume Jake from RI.
And lest you further derail the thread by calling my "fitness" into question, I invite you to replicate my accomplishment of Sunday - schlep 300 lbs, including pack, up and down Mt. Washington - having schlepped 310 for a warmup in the morning 2.8 relatively level miles from camp - arriving at your car, in one piece without incident, and drive the four hours home all on your own power.
I'm thrilled to have made the big trek I did Sunday, loved every minute of it, and am happy to share what information and insight I can to help others here as others - yourself included - have generously done for me. That, and not petty games of comparing relative expertise and skill - whose is bigger, junior-high-style, is what this site is best used for, as I see it.
jakedatc
06-19-2012, 10:36
I take "very strong hikers" as someone who is pretty confident in their abilities.
the "chimney" is angled and only 10 feet tall and has blocks wedged in it to step on. there were 4 pinned steps which are very easy to climb on since well.. they are steps.
i never said anything about your fitness, i stated that YOU have admitted to being a slower hiker. that is a TIME assessment. i give you all the credit in the world for getting out and doing stuff and you will improve. lightening your pack will also make things feel less cumbersome and perhaps improve your confidence on more difficult trails.
telling people they should do a boring ass hike down a ski slope (which could be muddy and tall grass) instead of a trail that you have not done is reaching a bit too far IMO. reading the book and looking at pictures is not the same as being on the trail and seeing stuff at face level.
(not my pics)
chimney of death
http://simplehealthyhearty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/wpid-WildcatsCarters-1.jpg
steps
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4090/4981407230_79e33ecff6_b.jpg
http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/hiking-should-be-fun-not-work-so-lighten-up/
I plan to get a lighter day pack in short order. Like my big pack, have worn out my old day jobber, looking forward to the new lighter, number. You'll note, as to TIME, that I gave a reasonable set of itinerary recommendations to the OP. If she or he and friends are super-strong, they can traverse the Presi's in a day, of course, or get to Madison Spring. Hard to gauge more precisely than that from afar, and countless are the strong hikers who have found their progress in the Whites to be much slower than in other places.
I think, to the original point of the thread, we as a group have imparted helpful into to get them started in planning a successful trip. I personally went down the Ammo Trail Sunday, very tired after a long day. Succeeded in getting down safely, but it was very hard, as hard for me then as it was descending in the snow and ice on the upper half of the steepest part on 5/12. Why, given that it was much drier? Because I was very tired, physically and mentally. I took that experience into account in making the ski trail suggestion to the OP for Wildcat. As fit and skilled as you are, would you want to go DOWN that stretch of AT at the end of a 15-20 mile day in the Carter-Moriah-Wildcat Range? Maybe YOU would, but most strong, fit hikers would not. That speaks to a high skill and fitness level on your part, which is admirable. Again, safer when doling out advice NOT to assume that of someone who merely, flatly declares themselves to be "very strong," whatever that means.
Personally, I'm hard-headed enough and love a tough challenge enough to want to go down from Wildcat E to 16 on the A.T., but not before I lose another 20 lbs and get at least 30-50 more miles of Whites under my belt.
PS: Probably want to go up that stretch of trail prior to going down it. I always like to see a tough, steep stretch of trail going up prior to descending it if possible.
Thanks for the pics - the Chimney looks doable, maybe not as terrible as billed, but no cake walk.
I would never recommend going up or down a ski trail unless you know that it has been mowed and you will not encounter impenetrable brush, long grass full of ticks, etc.
Slo-go'en
06-19-2012, 12:19
telling people they should do a boring ass hike down a ski slope (which could be muddy and tall grass) instead of a trail that you have not done is reaching a bit too far IMO. reading the book and looking at pictures is not the same as being on the trail and seeing stuff at face level.
I've hiked down (and up) a few ski trails for various reasons - usually thinking it would be shorter/easier and found out - NOT! Ski trails are NOT graded for hikers. They are not easy to hike on. They assume there will be 2-3 feet of snow on them to even out all the divits, bumps and the like. Stick to the hiker trails.
Even though I live near by, I haven't climbed up Wildcat via the AT from Pinkham yet. I started once, but got to the scary rock climb and turned back. It was a bit more than I wanted to do that day. I did drive a snowcat up the side of Wildcat a few times one winter when they let me make snow for a while - that was an interesting job.
If your in really, really good shape AND your good at rock hopping AND the weather is picture perfict - you can go from Crawford to Lakes and then to down to Pinkham the next day, but you'd be really sore after that hike and your knees will be screaming. I would not recommend it unless your really into pain and are willing to hike from sun up to sun down.
If your in really, really good shape AND your good at rock hopping AND the weather is picture perfict - you can go from Crawford to Lakes and then to down to Pinkham the next day, but you'd be really sore after that hike and your knees will be screaming. I would not recommend it unless your really into pain and are willing to hike from sun up to sun down.
i have done this exact trip and, aside from the weather in fact being perfect, none of the conditions you mention were true. i SUCK at rock hopping, i am in average to below average shape and the only thing that was sore on me after the hike were the backs of my calves when i tried to walk down stairs and the sunburn i got from being above tree line on such gorgeous days for so long without sunscreen. the second day can be a challenge from a daylight perspective but youre ending with the easiest part of the hike, so what if an hour of it is with a headlamp on? it might be worth the trouble it saves to do so.
this is typical fear mongering. the trip can be done in 2 days. in some ways 3 would be better, but that presents a logistic or cost disadvantage (pay for 2 nights at huts? carry sleeping gear?) that is avoided by doing it in 1 night. and the notion that you need to be a world class athlete to do so and then afterwards will still be in extraordinary pain anyway is a pure fabrication.
people who ARE in awesome shape and dont mind abusing themselves terribly can do from crawford to pinkham in a single day. being from up there i would imagine you would have met people doing this at some point or another.
peakbagger
06-19-2012, 13:15
The hike down Wildcat via the ski trails is on a service road that coincides with the Polecat trail until the bottom section where the road splits right. I just keep following the Polecat down as this area of trail is mowed Its maintained to allow people who took the Gondola up, the option of walking down. There are usually plenty of wild strawberries and the views over to Washington are great and encompass a larger area than taking the AT down. I have encountered moose many times trimming the ski trails. The one down side its there is basically no shade for the entire route and you are facing the sun, on a hot day it can dry you out. There are some water sources off the ski trails in early season but most dry up later in the season. There is a considerable time savings going up or down the ski trails comparted to the AT. You do miss out on a couple nice ledge views on the AT. The AT tends to be damp and slippery in spots. Many folks skip the lost Pond trail and just walk along Rt 16 and pick up the AT at the parking lot for Glen Ellis. It does require a stream crossing.
jakedatc
06-19-2012, 13:29
Going North through the wildcats-carter etc is what I would recommend. but if they were going to go the other way it isn't something to be scared of. It does help that I am a .11-.12 climber but with a pack and trail shoes that only goes so far.
Anyway since the OP hasn't even checked back in, i'm out.
Slo-go'en
06-19-2012, 14:20
people who ARE in awesome shape and dont mind abusing themselves terribly can do from crawford to pinkham in a single day. being from up there i would imagine you would have met people doing this at some point or another.
Oh, I'm sure there are a few who do that, but not very many. Even most thru hikers take thier time, going hut to hut. Of course, they generally have the "work for stay" option available.
I'm not a big fan of the AMC huts, but they are there and taking advantage of them makes this some what difficult section of trail a much more pleasent experiance. The OP has the time and hopefully the money to do that.
Oh, I'm sure there are a few who do that, but not very many. Even most thru hikers take thier time, going hut to hut. Of course, they generally have the "work for stay" option available.
I'm not a big fan of the AMC huts, but they are there and taking advantage of them makes this some what difficult section of trail a much more pleasent experiance. The OP has the time and hopefully the money to do that.
thrus cant do a 1 day traverse because they carry too much gear. by the same token though, try and find me a thru hiker this year who is stopping at EVERY hut.
besides, when section hiking you unavoidably start between huts. mitzpah is where it is so that you can hike from zealand to mitzpah in 1 day easily. hiking from crawford notch to mitzpah is basically doing half of what is already designed to be an easy hike.
money no object i would stop at lakes and madison, but youd never convince me to stop at mitzpah if i'm starting from crawford notch.
i have read there's a bus that runs along the route of the Huts/Whites, but i can't confirm any info since i have not been there yet...i have also heard of a train up mt. washington....but have not checked that out either...yet
Slo-go'en
06-19-2012, 17:54
i have read there's a bus that runs along the route of the Huts/Whites, but i can't confirm any info since i have not been there yet...i have also heard of a train up mt. washington....but have not checked that out either...yet
There is an AMC shuttle bus which loops around the mountains to get you from various trail heads to another. There is the Cog Railroad and an auto road up Mt Washington. Thier wicked expensive rides.
hoyawolf
06-19-2012, 22:04
I think we have decided to go with day one to nauman hut, day two to the perch, day three to somewhere past Pinkham on the trail day four to close to Imp Shelter and then Day five into Gorham...we are a very fit party and want to avoid huts at all costs.
I think we have decided to go with day one to nauman hut, day two to the perch, day three to somewhere past Pinkham on the trail day four to close to Imp Shelter and then Day five into Gorham...we are a very fit party and want to avoid huts at all costs.
I believe there is a small fee to camp at Nauman, but it's nothing like the expensive huts.
Do know, though, that the huts are a great resource even if you don't stay there - cheap eats like cookies and a bowl of soup for $2 each, free water refills plus use of facilities. They also have postings about the weather and the "Croos," as they're called, tend to be very smart, helpful and friendly. Stopping in on the huts is a big convenience and somewhat of a rite of passage - personally, I love them and have not yet stayed a night at any of them.
PS: Just a thought, and you can hike wherever you wish, of course, but I highly recommend Franconia Ridge for its beauty and gather that the Pemigewasset Wilderness, especially the Twins and Bonds, is very beautiful, remote and wild. If time and rides permit, you might want to give them day or two. But it's hard to argue with the Presidentials and Carter/Moriah/Wildcat.
I think we have decided to go with day one to nauman hut, day two to the perch, day three to somewhere past Pinkham on the trail day four to close to Imp Shelter and then Day five into Gorham...we are a very fit party and want to avoid huts at all costs.
PS: While the commercial and AMC shuttles are quite costly, you might be able to arrange a shuttle, say, from Pinkham or Gorham to Crawford or Franconia Notch from a member here at Whiteblaze for closer to the cost of gasoline. There are a lot of helpful people here, smart ones, too, and I'd bet there are a couple who might want to help travelers from far away such as your group with at-cost or low-cost shuttling. If I lived up that way, I'd be willing to help, but I live about 240 road miles away and schlep up myself for my hiking forays.
PS: While the commercial and AMC shuttles are quite costly, you might be able to arrange a shuttle, say, from Pinkham or Gorham to Crawford or Franconia Notch from a member here at Whiteblaze for closer to the cost of gasoline. There are a lot of helpful people here, smart ones, too, and I'd bet there are a couple who might want to help travelers from far away such as your group with at-cost or low-cost shuttling. If I lived up that way, I'd be willing to help, but I live about 240 road miles away and schlep up myself for my hiking forays.
the amc shuttle is a bargain compared to any other shuttle one might hire. sure you might find someone to do you a favor, but a) i wouldnt count on it b) i'm not one to go around asking for favors. even for a party of four, you can get to wherever youre going for $80. a hired shuttle from pinkham to crawford is going to cost more than that. now, adapting yourself to the schedule the amc shuttle runs on on the other hand..... ive always found it seems to cater towards people doing end to end day hikes. ive used it for pinkham to crawford, but if you were to try and get from crawford to franconia youd spend near a whole day riding the amc shuttle and making/waiting for connections.
Slo-go'en
06-20-2012, 10:32
I think we have decided to go with day one to nauman hut, day two to the perch, day three to somewhere past Pinkham on the trail day four to close to Imp Shelter and then Day five into Gorham...we are a very fit party and want to avoid huts at all costs.
Unfortunately, there is no place to camp "somewhere past Pinkham". There is one popular "stealth" site somewhere between Wildcat and Imp, but at the end of a long day, you can't count on someone else not already being there. Your legal options are the Osgood tent site or Dolly Copp campground. Dolly Copp is an interesting option, as you can ford the river, cross the highway and take the Imp trail up to the Imp shelter. Although this would make a pretty short day, that might be needed to insure space at Imp.
jakedatc
06-20-2012, 10:45
There is a lot of space at Imp... there are 4-5 large tent platforms, space for 8-12 people in the shelter, small overflow area. was there 2 weeks ago on a sat. night and only 2 people were actually in the shelter.
Slo-go'en
06-20-2012, 11:07
There is a lot of space at Imp... there are 4-5 large tent platforms, space for 8-12 people in the shelter, small overflow area. was there 2 weeks ago on a sat. night and only 2 people were actually in the shelter.
It's usually pretty quiet up here in June - everyone is afraid of the black flies. After July 4th is when things start to pick up and peaks during the last two weeks of July and first two of August. Then the thru-hikers start to show up in significant numbers. The OP hasn't said when they plan this trip, but it well could be in this peak season window.
But it is already picking up some. Two weekends ago there were all of 5 people at the RMC camps on Mt Adams. When I went up again last weekend, there were about 26, 18 at Crag and 8 at the Perch.
Tom Murphy
06-20-2012, 11:45
"Day three to somewhere past Pinkham on the trail"
I have stayed overnight off of Lost Pond Trail [please LNT] but its a haul to Imp from there.
m_factor
06-20-2012, 12:40
Lot's of good advice so far. I have to admit to being partial to the Pemigewasset Wilderness if you're going to extend your hike past the Presidentials going one way or another. If you want to stay in the Presidentials, there are ways to make loops though you may not come out just where your car is. You may have to have one person hitch to get back to your car. Check a map and look south of Mt. Washington for some interesting options.
One more thing to consider is the weather. With any luck, you'll have great weather and good views the entire way. But, this is the Whites and that would be unusual. Allow for extra time to deal with whatever gets thrown your way.
For example, I was on the top of Mt. Washington one time. I had been up there many times and I was with three other people, all of who had been up there many times. Three of us were thruhikers, etc. It was so foggy that we couldn't find the first cairn off the top on our intended route down from the summit. Two of us who knew about where to find it went ahead to scout that first cairn and never found it. We returned to the summit and took another, longer, way down with better visibility. Other than fog, this was in good weather on a relatively warm day. Going through this process in high wind and rain would have been miserable.
P.S. This weekend (summer solstice) is likely to be the annual (assuming they're still doing it), Death March. It's the entire Presidential Ridge in a day. If I remember correctly, it's about 26 miles and 9,000' total vertical gain. I attempted it once a long time ago (starting from Dolly Copp) but bailed from Lakes when a thunder and lightning storm hit. I wouldn't have wanted to do any hiking the day afterward. Ugh!