View Full Version : Clorox as disinfect for H20
Anyone ever used Clorox to disinfect ye water? What ratio did you use? An outfitter stated they had used two toothpick drops per liter/quart.
generoll
04-20-2005, 08:13
yeah, about two drops per quart. i think the bottle has instructions on the back for its use in disinfecting water.
Two or three drops per liter, after it's been filtered.
Stoker53
04-20-2005, 10:23
This from the Lake Oswego Water Treatment Plant web page.
If the emergency has left you with no way to boil the water or if you have limited fuel and do not want to use it for boiling water, you may treat the water with liquid chlorine laundry bleach. NOTE: do not use scented laundry bleach, powdered bleach, or swimming pool chlorine; these contain additional chemicals that are poisonous. Below is a chart that indicates how much liquid bleach to add to the water.
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="31%">
Amount of water
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="34%">
Amount of bleach to add to clear water
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="34%">
Amount of bleach to add to cloudy/dirty water
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="31%">
1 gallon
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="34%">
8 drops
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="34%">
16 drops
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="31%">
5 gallons
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="34%">
1/2 teaspoon
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="34%">
1 teaspoon
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
After you add the bleach, thoroughly mix by stirring or shaking the container. Let the water stand for 30 minutes before using. A slight chlorine odor should be noticeable in the water; if not, add another dosage of bleach and allow the water to stand another 15 minutes before using. The water can also be treated with the use of water purification tablets that can be purchased at most outdoors or sporting goods stores. Follow the directions for use on the package you purchase. Treat only enough water to meet your needs for 48 hours at a time. There is an increased chance of recontamination if the treated water sits for more than 48 hours. Refrigeration will also help prevent recontamination.
"ME & U"
04-20-2005, 11:14
Anyone ever used Clorox to disinfect ye water? What ratio did you use? An outfitter stated they had used two toothpick drops per liter/quart.
We "U" & "ME", used bleach to purify our water for about half the AT. 2 drops per liter will do the trick. We carried it in a cleaned out Visine bottle, which made the drip process easy. You need the unscented kind, (blue lable I believe). You can purchase the small bottles for less than a dollar at any supermarket, mom & pop store or laundymat. It does lose it's effectiveness after 10 days or so, so plan on replacing it often. You can leave the unused portion in a hiker box or back at the laundry. Make sure your container is not "see-thru" as this will kill it's power quicker. Also you have to deal with floating smeg in your water, but if you're careful it's not too bad. As far as the weight, well a tiny bottle vs. a filter, I don't know, you do the math and decide what's best for you. We never got sick and our teeth were never whiter!:) ME
alanthealan
04-20-2005, 11:19
I was just reading last night in Medicine for the Mountains about water treatment. When he talked of bleach he mentioned that if there is organic matter present the bleach bonds to the matter. Therefore more bleach/time or filter the water beforehand.
tlbj6142
04-20-2005, 13:27
Our church uses it exclusively on backcountry trips (bping and canoeing). One small bottle will work for 30+ people for an entire weekend and have plenty to spare.
I think we might have use 3-4 drops per liter/quart. You do end up with a very strong smelling glass of water, but the taste isn't as bad as the smell.
One thing to note it is not as affective at killing bad-guys as iodine, Aqua Mira or a filter. But given that 99.9% of backcountry water doesn't really need to be treated at all, its not a real concern. I also believe that when used to treat water that contains "chemicals" (coal mine run-off, farm run-off, etc.), you end up producing some even nastier chemicals than the original toxin. YMMV.
Footslogger
04-20-2005, 13:33
Just curious what the biochemists would say about the use of household bleach in terms of the effect on "healthy bacteria" in the digestive system. I know we're talking about a very dilute solution here. Nonetheless, I wonder what the happy medium is in terms of sufficient concentration to render water safe to drink and the potential for damage to those healthy bacteria ??
'Slogger
Just Jeff
04-20-2005, 13:47
I read somewhere that household bleach doesn't kill cryptosporidium.
I use Aqua Mira, which is the same Chlorine Dioxide many municipal water treatment plants use. It's a bit different than the clorine in bleach, but much more expensive, too.
FWIW, I grew up drinking out of the creek and don't remember ever getting Giardia or anything. There were even cow pastures nearby.
saimyoji
04-20-2005, 15:50
Yeah, I read the same thing.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001630.htm
Scroll down to the third paragraph under editor's note
saimyoji
04-20-2005, 15:51
here's an even better one
http://sfwater.org/detail.cfm/MSC_ID/51/MTO_ID/NULL/MC_ID/10/C_ID/446/
"ME & U"
04-20-2005, 16:05
I read somewhere that household bleach doesn't kill cryptosporidium.
I use Aqua Mira, which is the same Chlorine Dioxide many municipal water treatment plants use. It's a bit different than the clorine in bleach, but much more expensive, too.
FWIW, I grew up drinking out of the creek and don't remember ever getting Giardia or anything. There were even cow pastures nearby.
We were concerned about the effects bleach would have after such extended use ( 3 months on the AT ). We visited our water treatment plant and talked to a couple of experts explaining our use of bleach on the trail. They didn't seem to want to give us a staight answer. They did however say that they are authorized to use common household bleach to treat the cities water supply in the event of a disaster involving water contamination. They both said that chlorine bleach is very similar to what water treatment plants use to treat water supplies.
This topic comes up periodically.
There is always some debate about how effective bleach is at killing all the nasties. I suspect that bleach is better than nothing, and probably used best in an emergency situation.
orangebug
04-20-2005, 20:14
There is also debate regarding how effective treating water is for avoiding GI events.
Treat if you wish, but wash hands in Purel/alcohol gel and keep others from sharing your food.
But given that 99.9% of backcountry water doesn't really need to be treated at all, its not a real concern.
Could you please cite the source of this statistic.
Panzer
We carried it in a cleaned out Visine bottle, which made the drip process easy.
Yikes.. I hope you marked the Visine bottle "do not put in eyes"....
What if you lost it on the trail and someone found it and put it in their eyes.
Panzer
I believe I read somewhere that the concentration of bleach varies from brand to brand.
I also hard that it can fade over time.
These are 2 good reasons that you should find something else better to use.
Panzer
SavageLlama
04-20-2005, 22:39
Yikes.. I hope you marked the Visine bottle "do not put in eyes"....
...And I hope you didn't drink your Visine by mistake! (just a drop or two of Visine will give you the biggest case of the green-apple two-step that you've ever had.)
Yeeeouch! I believe I'll stick with Iodine and Vitamin C, after I filter.
Pencil Pusher
04-21-2005, 00:44
What about the differences between 'concentrated' bleach and regular bleach? I can no longer find just regular bleach, all the bottles being sold now have 'concentrate' listed on them. Anyhoo, that's one of the reasons I've been a little hesitant to use the 'new' bleach to treat water. I still remember the water buffalos in the army reeking of chlorine... yech.
tlbj6142
04-21-2005, 09:40
Could you please cite the source of this statistic.Go find the bp'er issue from 12-18 months ago. They did some study and found all of their sources were below whatever they called "bad", other studies have been done as well.
Sure the 99.9% number I pulled from my ass, but in truth, backcountry water is not a real concern.
Tha Wookie
04-21-2005, 13:48
Don't drink poison! :datz
Mr. Clean
04-21-2005, 17:21
I would counsel anyone against consistently adding bleach to their drinking water. If the water has any color or organic material in it, adding bleach will create trihalomethanes and haloacetic acids, both cancer causing compounds. Repeatedly doing this will not be good for you. If the water is clear, there shouldn't be much of a problem, but I wouldn't count on this being your only way to disinfect water on the trail.
I would counsel anyone against consistently adding bleach to their drinking water. If the water has any color or organic material in it, adding bleach will create trihalomethanes and haloacetic acids, both cancer causing compounds. Repeatedly doing this will not be good for you. If the water is clear, there shouldn't be much of a problem, but I wouldn't count on this being your only way to disinfect water on the trail.
in other words.. forget about bleach.
IF your are going to treat your water don't be a cheap ass, get you wallet out and spend some money on a proper water treatment system.
Panzer
fiddlehead
04-21-2005, 22:25
I first learned about Chorox used as an effective water treatment system from my brother who was a school teacher in Brazil at the time. When he was a chaparone on a class trip up the Amazon river, he found out that they just scooped water out of the cloudy, muddy river and put it in a 55 gal. drum and added a coca cola cap lid full of Chorox bleach to the water and let stand a while ( i don't remember how long exactly any more) No one got sick from the water although 2 kids got malaria.
That was about 12 years ago and i've been treating my water all over the world ever since in the following way: 2 drops from a visine bottle filled with bleach that i periodically (every month or so) refill. Wait 20 minutes. If the water is really cold (like it often is in the Himalayas) wait twice that long. (Colder water, it seems, takes longer to kill the bacteria) I have not gotten the least bit sick from water since i started this. I gave away my expensive, heavy and often clogged Pur Hiker water filter after my PCT hike in 96.
Last year, i drank the water in Nepal using this method and didn't get sick. And they say that Nepal has some of the most concentrated Giardia in the world. (they often build their ****ters over the stream) Keep in mind, i do try to find the best water possible. A seep is best as i believe that the ground is the best filter in the world. Hope this helps. fh
the following are some excerpts that I found on the net about using bleach.
Panzer
NOTE: Bleach does not work well in killing off beaver fever (Giardia) or Cryptosporidium parasites. The amount of bleach needed to kill these parasites makes the water almost impossible to drink. If beaver fever or Cryptosporidium are in your water, boiling is the best way to ensure safe drinking water.
-----------
Storing bleach in a warm place will speed up the Chlorine gas leakage. So over time your Chlorine concentration will diminish to a level you have no way of determining. When this happens you will have no idea how much to put in the water, making this a shaky situation.
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Please note on chlorine bleach (liquid variety) that it is merely chlorine gas disolved in water, much like soda pop is CO2 disolved in water. Soda pop can go flat over time if the container is not PERFECTLY air tight. Bleach containers are usually cheap plastic that is gas permiable. Therefore, if you buy liquid bleach now for use later, the chlorine concentration will be less, perhaps MUCH less.
----------
Chlorine also has its limitations. Its solutions are only moderately stable, and organic matter as well as iron and manganese can interfere with the action of chlorine. Low levels of chlorine normally used to disinfect water are not an effective treatment for the parasite Giardia. A relatively high chlorine level must be maintained for at least 30 minutes to kill Giardia. High chlorine concentrations can have objectionable tastes and odors, and even low chlorine concentrations react with some organic compounds to produce strong, unpleasant tastes and odors.
in other words.. forget about bleach.
IF your are going to treat your water don't be a cheap ass, get you wallet out and spend some money on a proper water treatment system.
Panzer
I know it has been threaded, but, what is your definition of proper? I have asked about field diffs between Hiker and Hiker Pro and got: "Handle is blue." I have been using clorine dioxide tabs, taste like the swimming pool. Maybe if I was used to city water.
Mr. Clean
04-22-2005, 12:33
Using bleach may be okay for short periods, but as someone said, bleach will lose it's potency by evaporation over a short period of time. Crypto also is almost impossible to kill. In it's oocyst stage it has a hard shell that not much will get through. Only filtration or boiling will kill it. Luckily theres not too much crypto around.
Again, in the long run, I really don't think it wise to use bleach. Take it from a 13 year veteran of a Municipal water filtration plant.
The Old Fhart
04-22-2005, 13:31
Here (http://www.hikingwebsite.com/gear/technote/purify.htm) is a reference that will compare the various chemical ways to treat water. I have used iodine for trips but would be very careful about using household bleach. I mean I'm cheap, but I'd buy a comercial product designed for purification instead of using some product with possible harmful unknown additives.
The Old Fhart
04-22-2005, 13:56
Oh, you can check here (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/giardiasis/factsht_giardia.htm) for CDC info on Giardiasis. You may not want to be eating while you read this. ;)
Those who say they only drink good looking clean water must have better eyes than I have if they can see micron-sized nasties in the water. Granted, the chances are small that you will drink contaminated water, but the consequences can be great. even municipal water systems and wells are not immune from contamination. By thru-hiking you are multiplying your chances of contamination probably by a factor of several hundred.
The only reason anyone would ever use bleach would be to same money and time.
Every other method conceivable is better than bleach.
Panzer
chowhound
04-23-2005, 19:38
I think that most people on this forum are too confident about the quality of the available water. I got giardia last summer while hiking solo on the Superior Hiking Trail in Minnesota. I was reasonably careful about personal hygine and was using Aqua Mira. While most water is probably OK, or at least not too bad, please realize that you are taking some risk even when you use reasonable water treatment methods. I'm not sure what happened with me - maybe I double treated one bottle and skipped the other when I was doing two at once, or maybe I forgot to rinse the cap and threads with clean water - who knows? While I didn't get as sick as some people report, it still wasn't pleasant. I saw a doctor, got a prescription for flagyl, and that fixed me up. In the future I will use a filter, and carry chemicals for backup.
chowhound
fiddlehead
04-24-2005, 03:12
If the water is going to make you as sick as most of you are claiming here, then how is the rest of the world surviving? I've rarely seen a water filter in asia except the ones that are in many tea-houses in Nepal for the tourists. The locals aren't filtering water. I just came from northeastern Thailand where practically everybody who lives there drinks rainwater they collect and i've often seen dead animals, dirt, feathers, and other nasty's in this water. Millions and millions of people worldwide are NOT FILTERING THEIR WATER! I first became enlightened to this fact on my 1st Nepal trip when i saw a seep and was about to drink it when my Sherpa guide said: Don't drink that water! And then he proceeded to drink it. I asked him why he can drink it but not me and he said "because i live here!" Well, i ended up getting giardia that year anyway but have never gotten it since and my last trip there, i too drank the water with no problems.
I believe there's a lot to be said for the statement that "once you get Giardia, you won't get it again"
I guess if you all want to carry a heavy and expensive water filter and spend up to an hour a day pumping water (sometimes just to do your dishes or wash you face) go ahead and do it, but i also think that for many of us, it's not necessary!
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!
Critterman
04-24-2005, 08:23
Millions and Millions of people around the world die from that water and what it carries every year. You may not have seen it but believe it.
SGT Rock
04-24-2005, 10:09
And people that filter water also get sick.
I was advised not to use clorox in my water by a chemist friend who said unless you know what the contaminates are in each specific container of water you will never know how much to use. He worked for a municipal water company and he said he changes the amount af chlorine added each day depending on what is needed to kill contaminates in that days water and it changes from day to day and source to source. He said adding too much can harm you and even kill the good bacteria your body needs. The proper amount simply kills the bacteria, too much goes into your system and can do damage. On the other hand I have known thru hikers that successfully used chlorine bleach and their only problem was floaties in theit unfiltered water. Thats why Ben and Jerry make so many flavors---different things work for different hikers.
:sun :sun
The Old Fhart
04-24-2005, 11:00
Let’s answer some of Fiddlehead’s questions about Giardia seeing he has a view that runs counter to all medical science and logic:
1) how is the rest of the world surviving? Answer- the rest of the world is having a real problem with Giardia. This article (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic215.htm#section~workup) from emedicine.com indicates that, quote- Internationally: Giardiasis is prevalent throughout the world. Giardia is one of the first enteric pathogens to infect infants in the developing world, with peak prevalence rates of 15-20% in children younger than 10 years.
2)What about your trip to Thailand? FH quote-“I first became enlightened to this fact”----“ Well, i ended up getting giardia that year anyway.” You answered your own question. Being “enlightened” and being “infected” are not the same thing. You only proved you can get Giardia in Thailand.
3)Do you get immunity from Giardia? FH quote-“I believe there's a lot to be said for the statement that "once you get Giardia, you won't get it again." Answer- Giardia is a pathogen and you don’t get immunity, no more that if you get bit by a dog you’ll never get bitten again, although if you got bit once you should have the intelligence to try to avoid those situations in the future. Note you can have Giardia without obvious symptoms but you become a regular “Typhoid Mary” ready to infect anyone you come in direct contact with. There are other symptoms like, quote- “Anorexia, fatigue, malaise, and weight loss are common. Weight loss occurs in more than 50% of patients and averages 10 pounds per person. Chronic illness may occur with adults presenting with long-standing malabsorption syndrome and children with failure to thrive. These symptoms may be harder to associate with Giardia but they can be serious.
4) What about hygiene? Quote-“I guess if you all want to carry a heavy and expensive water filter and spend up to an hour a day pumping water (sometimes just to do your dishes or wash you face) go ahead and do it, but i also think that for many of us, it's not necessary! Answer-Proper hygiene is one of the main keys to prevention. Oral-fecal contamination is a common way to get infected as well as using contaminated water to bathe. Your recommendations are a sure-fire recipe for getting Giardia.
If you want to play Russian Roulette with your health, fine; but don’t try to present some voodoo faulty logic of yours that is counter to all medical knowledge as a proper course of action for others.
RedneckRye
04-24-2005, 12:35
There are 2 differences between the Katadyn Hiker Pro and the regular hiker. The Pro comes with a 50 micron pre-filter screen that wraps around the filter cartridge inside the plastic body of the filter. The chunk of foam in the "acorn" that goes into the water source has holes that are roughly 200 microns. The other difference is that the Pro has a quick connest adapter so that you can plug a hydration tube directly into the filter. Also, all replacement cartridges for the Hiker now come with the pre-filter screen.
Filter......don't drink poop!!!! That's what oral-fecal contamination is, drinking poop.
orangebug
04-24-2005, 14:24
Which do you think is more common, eating or drinking poop? You will eat more of poop from poor toilet hygiene and food handling than from our water sources.
Wash hands. Don't share food. Filter if that makes you feel better.
Read what The Old Fhart said---he is right on about giardia. However one thing I have observed on the trail. Hikers that have been raised or lived on farms with animals rarely ever seem to get giardia. Alot of hikers raised in urban or suburban enviroments seem to be the most common victims. I asumed farm people after years of handeling manure had developed an imunity but it is possible us farm boys just developed habits to avoid giardia or we would have died years ago.
:eek:
Stoker53
04-24-2005, 16:53
It's quite possible that I could get the runs from reading more of this thread. Giardia....drinking poop.....drinking bleach.....beaver fever ( still an epidemic in the 16-21 yr old male population BTW ).
It's quite possible that I could get the runs from reading more of this thread. Giardia....drinking poop.....drinking bleach.....beaver fever ( still an epidemic in the 16-21 yr old male population BTW ).
What do you mean by "beaver feaver" in 16-21 male population??
Panzer
saimyoji
04-25-2005, 00:11
Yeah, the influence of the beaver certainly begins earlier and most definately persists well into golden years. In one way or another. :eek:
chowhound
04-25-2005, 13:58
I think that Moxie00 is probably right. I also think that most water encountered here in the US is probably pretty decent. As a kid in Connecticut I drank from ponds, streams, and lakes if the water didn't "look" bad to me - never had a problem. In Vietnam I bathed and swam in places that were known to be polluted, and drank marginally treated water from very suspect sources - never had a problem. Since those younger years I would occassionally drink untreated water from various outdoor sources - never had a problem. Last summer I drank treated water along the Superior Hiking Trail and got giardia. I'm still not paranoid about water, and I know that you can still get sick using a filter, but in the future I will try to stack the deck in my favor. It is a personal decision and I don't think that there is one correct answer.
chowhound
SGT Rock
04-25-2005, 15:08
I think the correct answer is to always enforce personal hygiene. Everything I read seems to point to this as the biggest factor in stomach problems for hikers. A clean camp towel and a one ounce bottle of hand sanitizer is probably more effective than any filter at keeping you healthy.
Mr. Clean
04-25-2005, 15:38
I agree with Sgt. Rock!
i agree with orangebug. most people who get sick only blame it on the water. they're actually getting sick from poor hygiene. i saw an article in national geographic headlined "parasite paranoia" all about how extensive studies have shown it's pretty damn hard to get giardia even out west where it's way more prevalent than the east. i have come to the conclusion that water filter companies are creating all this hysteria just to sell more of their product. they even make little signs warning hikers to treat all water and the forest service helpfully hangs these signs at trailheads and on shelters, etc. personally, i don't see how many of these springs could be contaminated, when the water is gushing right out of a rock, for instance, and there's nothing above it.
mingo