Fees for camping/hiking/parking on federal/state/county/Indian lands??!!

[Different Socks]

I just don't get this!!!
To charge a fee for a permit, that I understand. To charge for each day at a backcountry site, that I understand also. But to charge a fee for a permit PLUS then charge another daily fee per person to use the permit, that is ridiculous!! If the permit can only be used while you are there AND the only purpose of the permit is the use of it for overnight hikes, then why charge a 2nd time? This is the way it is done at the Grand Canyon and many other places.

On certain Indian lands, they don't have campgrounds, campsites, clean water, or even trails, yet they will charge you $10 per person for one day THEN $5 for each additional day. What are you paying for?

And don't get me started on parking fees at trailheads that are lots just off a highway or other main roadway.

How do they justify these costs for trail/backcountry use that can be almost equal to a regular campsite fee, and why did the government let them continue with it?

[WingedMonkey]

I can't believe the Indians had the nerve to rip you off. You should hike the Florida Trail where the only Air Force bombing ranges have the right to rip you off.

The Indians only ask that you ask ahead of time.

[Mags]

On certain Indian lands, they don't have campgrounds, campsites, clean water, or even trails, yet they will charge you $10 per person for one day THEN $5 for each additional day. What are you paying for?



Paying for the fact it is their land and they have the right to charge you? :)

As for the other fees, esp in USFS lands, fewer of these places are actually managed by the USFS anymore. The USFS puts out maintenance and control of traffic/crowds of the trailheads and campgrounds in an area to bid to private concessionaires. With budgets being slashed, the USFS (and BLM I imagine) are doing this more and more.

http://www.tsweekly.com/news/features/forests-for-sale-as-more-campgrounds-come-under-private-management-what-does-this-mean-for-campers.html


So, that is why there are often fees for both the entrance AND backpacking (which is NOT managed by the concessionaires)

This local and popular area is a prime example:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72 BTJw8jAwjQL8h2VAQAzHJMsQ!!/?ss=110210&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=FSE_003741&navid=110000000000000&pnavid=null&position=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&recid=28182&ttype=recarea&pname=Arapaho%2520&%2520Roosevelt%2520National%2520Forests%2520Pawnee %2520National%2520Grassland%2520-%2520Brainard%2520Lake%2520Recreation%2520Area

Not saying I agree with it, but it is the reality on the ground (trail?)

As for why it is done..it has to do with that green stuff in your wallet.

[Different Socks]

Paying for the fact it is their land and they have the right to charge you? :)

As for the other fees, esp in USFS lands, fewer of these places are actually managed by the USFS anymore. The USFS puts out maintenance and control of traffic/crowds of the trailheads and campgrounds in an area to bid to private concessionaires. With budgets being slashed, the USFS (and BLM I imagine) are doing this more and more.

http://www.tsweekly.com/news/features/forests-for-sale-as-more-campgrounds-come-under-private-management-what-does-this-mean-for-campers.html


So, that is why there are often fees for both the entrance AND backpacking (which is NOT managed by the concessionaires)

This local and popular area is a prime example:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72 BTJw8jAwjQL8h2VAQAzHJMsQ!!/?ss=110210&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=FSE_003741&navid=110000000000000&pnavid=null&position=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&recid=28182&ttype=recarea&pname=Arapaho%2520&%2520Roosevelt%2520National%2520Forests%2520Pawnee %2520National%2520Grassland%2520-%2520Brainard%2520Lake%2520Recreation%2520Area (http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/%21ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72 BTJw8jAwjQL8h2VAQAzHJMsQ%21%21/?ss=110210&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=FSE_003741&navid=110000000000000&pnavid=null&position=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&recid=28182&ttype=recarea&pname=Arapaho%2520&%2520Roosevelt%2520National%2520Forests%2520Pawnee %2520National%2520Grassland%2520-%2520Brainard%2520Lake%2520Recreation%2520Area)

Not saying I agree with it, but it is the reality on the ground (trail?)

As for why it is done..it has to do with that green stuff in your wallet.

So you are saying you understand why they make you pay for a permit, then make you pay again to use it?

[Odd Man Out]

I just don't get this!!!
To charge a fee for a permit, that I understand. To charge for each day at a backcountry site, that I understand also. But to charge a fee for a permit PLUS then charge another daily fee per person to use the permit, ...

How about this. The permit fee is to pay the costs of issuing a permit (personnel, phone, web site, paper clips, building, etc...). That cost will be proportional to the number of permits issued. The use fee is to cover the cost of maintaining the backcountry (replacing signs by all those idiots with guns who shoot the signs, replacing gates broken down by idiots driving big SUV's, cleaning garbage from the fire rings left by idiots who leave a trace, etc...). These costs will be proportional to the number of ID's (idiot-days). Since they don't ask if the permit holder is an idiot, the only option is to have a per-person-per-day fee.

[Mrs Baggins]

User fees. You use it. You pay for it. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing cars parked just outside the gates at SNP to avoid the entrance fee. They'll be the very first to scream bloody hell if the park has to close due to lack of funds. Here in Maryland many of our state parks have voluntary entrance fees. I always pay. And when I'm leading a hike that starts in one I tell the ladies that are attending that they should pay the fee. It's $3. It won't break anyone. If you can't pay that then you probably can't afford the hiking poles, decent shoes/boots, day pack, etc. I joined the ATC and paid a higher fee than the suggested minimum. Someone with me was shocked and asked why I'd do that. I told them that I use those trails all the time, I bring many others out to use the trails, it's the least I could do. Maintenance, printing maps and books and all, is not free. We had a National Parks pass in 2007 and yet we came to parks where things within the parks was NOT covered - we paid. Use it, pay for it.

[Rasty]

Only issue I have with it this. In 2012 the average American has to work until mid July to pay all your taxes. That date used to be in May then June. What's next mid August. No matter what you pay its always more. Its like little shop of horrors "Feed Me Semore". The parks get less because other departments get more. Parks aren't that important to most Americans because they don't use them.

[Pedaling Fool]

I just don't get this!!!
To charge a fee for a permit, that I understand. To charge for each day at a backcountry site, that I understand also. But to charge a fee for a permit PLUS then charge another daily fee per person to use the permit, that is ridiculous!! If the permit can only be used while you are there AND the only purpose of the permit is the use of it for overnight hikes, then why charge a 2nd time? This is the way it is done at the Grand Canyon and many other places.

On certain Indian lands, they don't have campgrounds, campsites, clean water, or even trails, yet they will charge you $10 per person for one day THEN $5 for each additional day. What are you paying for?

And don't get me started on parking fees at trailheads that are lots just off a highway or other main roadway.

How do they justify these costs for trail/backcountry use that can be almost equal to a regular campsite fee, and why did the government let them continue with it?
At least with Fed/State/Local lands we have somewhat of a say so, but not sure why you would include Indian lands, which are somewhat sovereign. I understand they're not technically a sovereign nation, but pretty much when it comes to us using their land for recreational use, then yes, for all practical purposes they are sovereign.

[Mags]

So you are saying you understand why they make you pay for a permit, then make you pay again to use it?

Dude, it comes down to money. Not exactly something you need the Oracle of Delphi for. ;)

Less money from the the govt for facilities; more lobbying from private interests to manage said facilities to get a slice of the lucrative recreation pie money, and the cheese stands lone.

There is a difference between agreeing with it and understanding with it.

[Wise Old Owl]

BOB - DS just pay it... Sorry.





Trail of tears. Man up.!

[Wise Old Owl]

Wow Golden age passes won't be accepted? well I don't have one - and I found the Leave your Llama at home funny.

[hikerboy57]

still cheaper than a movie. get over it. youll pay for cell phones, internet access, lattes, etc.but not for something you love to do?just choose your priorities.
its still cheaper than a movie.

[Different Socks]

still cheaper than a movie. get over it. youll pay for cell phones, internet access, lattes, etc.but not for something you love to do?just choose your priorities.
its still cheaper than a movie.

Don't drink lattes, don't have a cell phone or cable, don't drink or smoke(waste of money), don't go to the movies(rent 50 cent videos), but paying as much money for 2 nights in the backcountry as opposed to the same price for a tank of gas is ridiculous!!!

[verasch]

still cheaper than a movie. get over it. youll pay for cell phones, internet access, lattes, etc.but not for something you love to do?just choose your priorities.
its still cheaper than a movie.

It costs $25 to get into the grand canyon. That is, if you don't know the local routes.

[Different Socks]

Now for those of you whom say I should just bite the bullet and pay the damn fee(s), let me put it to you this way:

Let's say you wish to stay at a site below the rim of the Grand Canyon for 2 nights.

Entrance fee(1 person in a car)--$25.00
Backcountry Permit--$10
2 night stay below the rim at a backcountry site(1 person/2 nights)--$10.00

Total cost to get in park and tent below the rim for 2 nights/1 person--$45.00!!! That is a site in which there may not be any water nearby, a hole you would be required to dig to take a dump, and possibly no fire ring.

Just to camp at Mather Campground on the south rim is $18/night, plus the $20.00 to get into the park--Total is $56.00!! And Mather has water, bathroom facilities, security, etc.

So when you compare the two selections they don't come anywhere near being close for the cost of what you pay for what you are getting. So I ask again, why charge $45 for 2 nights(or $40.00 for 1 night) and all you get is a flat spot on the ground and that may be all there is to it?

[Wise Old Owl]

interesting take.... I understand you can still drive off the rim at the right place for free.:eek:

Have you considered payment in Wampum?

[theinfamousj]

So I ask again, why charge $45 for 2 nights(or $40.00 for 1 night) and all you get is a flat spot on the ground and that may be all there is to it?

Because they have something you want and you are willing to pay to get it. Or not. Classic economics: you can charge what the market will bear.

[hikerboy57]

Helps keep the crowds down.same argument about the huts and yet they sell out quickly.supply and demand.i paid$15/seat to see Ted last week with my daughter..

[10-K]

still cheaper than a movie. get over it. youll pay for cell phones, internet access, lattes, etc.but not for something you love to do?just choose your priorities.
its still cheaper than a movie.

Some people have more than that in their Sawyer in-line water filter....

:)

[10-K]

Now for those of you whom say I should just bite the bullet and pay the damn fee(s), let me put it to you this way:

Let's say you wish to stay at a site below the rim of the Grand Canyon for 2 nights.

Entrance fee(1 person in a car)--$25.00
Backcountry Permit--$10
2 night stay below the rim at a backcountry site(1 person/2 nights)--$10.00

Total cost to get in park and tent below the rim for 2 nights/1 person--$45.00!!! That is a site in which there may not be any water nearby, a hole you would be required to dig to take a dump, and possibly no fire ring.

Just to camp at Mather Campground on the south rim is $18/night, plus the $20.00 to get into the park--Total is $56.00!! And Mather has water, bathroom facilities, security, etc.

So when you compare the two selections they don't come anywhere near being close for the cost of what you pay for what you are getting. So I ask again, why charge $45 for 2 nights(or $40.00 for 1 night) and all you get is a flat spot on the ground and that may be all there is to it?

This is just me but I think the view is worth $45.... I paid $199 a night to listen to airplanes take off 24/7 in Miami a few months ago.

[hikerboy57]

Id like to know more about the sawyer in line water filter

[10-K]

Id like to know more about the sawyer in line water filter

Funny you should ask.... Search for "sawyer" and you'll get 15 pages of results. It's amazing how many threads that water filter has infiltrated.

Somebody asked a question about using dynamite to scare bears away and somehow getting a Sawyer in-line water filter worked its way into the thread.....

Amazing piece of equipment, that Sawyer in-line filter.

[Pedaling Fool]

Don't drink lattes, don't have a cell phone or cable, don't drink or smoke(waste of money), don't go to the movies(rent 50 cent videos), but paying as much money for 2 nights in the backcountry as opposed to the same price for a tank of gas is ridiculous!!!
And don't drive a car. I save tons of money cycling everywhere. Just sayin' :)

[hikerboy57]

From what i understand the sawyer in line water filter also keeps bears away.

[coach lou]

Bob, it costs me $800+ every July to fly out to the Big Sky, $55 for the non-resident 10 day license, $20 for the Jellysone License, $25 to get in, $12 per nite @ Slough Creek, plus the fuel in the RV. How's that for per pound of Catch & release fish. I don't even want to tell you how much my time-share in St. John costs for 7 days to swim with the fishes:eek:................but, I love the outdoors! At least I started Backpacking again, which in comparison is peanuts even with all the equipment upgrades.